Please provide feedback in this thread.
After reviewing and incorporating feedback on this approach, we'll follow up with Avangion and Elemental Advanced Being rules -- which will clearly follow in a similiar mold. ;)
http://athas.org/releases/advancedbeings/
For the final draft, I'd like to recommend a sidebar with the cumulative ability bonuses, and a chart like the Dragon Size and Attacks charts in the MM, just for reference's sake. And a writeup on the Lifeshape seed! Also, is there any plan to have a form of Psionic Enchantment that is used in Epic Spellcasting? I just have to say, though, excellent work! Props to the whole Epic Bureau!
Well happy birthday
I will be on most of the time to answer questions on our write up on this.
We were pretty much planning to have charts (and actually we built the charts up when we were creating the spells and such) and stuff like that for the final writeups.... as well as a few other things. This is just the playtest version to get a feel for everyone.
We do have a write up for the lifeshape seed and it will be included in the final form of the advanced rules.... But, we have to keep some of it under wraps for the moment, as we want to make sure the seed is balanced for all the advanced beings types prior to releasing it as we may need to change some of the mitigating factors to make sure it balances out in the final version. (the Avangion bonuses are the part I, personally, am most worried about making sure it balances one.)
On the psionic enchantments.... if you notice, most of them can already be used on epic spells as is..... and we have discussed the idea of ones specifically for the epic spells, just have not come across rules we really like, that are not too limiting. (note the psionic enchantments are based more like the archmage and Hierophant abilities.... so give more of an advantage at the lower level powers/spells.)
I am glad you like it.... keep up with the questions
Btw, in the AB page :
curse the silt it crosss to get here."
Too many sssssssss ;)
oh, in the Dragon metamorphosis spells X, there is :
At this, its final stage of the metamorphosis the dragon leaves the humanoid form completely behind in favor of a pure dragon, aprox.times its original height in lenght and two hundred and fifty times its original weight.
But if you go the route I recommend, you can be a fully transformed Dragon by level 32, (granted, you burn a LOT of XP doing the Metamporphosis spells, but there's ways around that) , and weild unimaginable might. The Tablelands can be yours!
And once again, HUGE thanks to the Epic Bureau for giving us the Dragon!
Another idea, how about doing a dragon sample (Farcluun) with these rules?
oh, in the Dragon metamorphosis spells X, there is :
Oops .... thought I had caught that one.... guess I missed one. That should read:
"At this, its final stage of the metamorphosis the dragon leaves the humanoid form completely behind in favor of a pure dragon, aprox. 8 times its original height in lenght and two hundred and fifty times its original weight."
thanks for catching that one for us
Farcluun should be pretty easy to create..... physically. Per the description of his appearance he would have had to have cast up to either the Dragon Metamorphosis III or Dragon Metamorphosis IV spell. Just from his appearance in the modules... From his 2ed stats I would estimate he would have been a wizard 7/psion 3 (seer or telepath most likely)/cerebremancer 11/dragon 1. This would fit why he was beaten so quickly by the Sorceress Queen, but was still able to escape. Would also fit why he was searching ancient city states for more power too..... he was advancing the metamorphosis without advancing the dragon class
This would give him the equivelent of 18th level arcane casting and 14th level manifesting... a dangerous combination. Add in dragon magic, energy storing, and duplex I and you have a pretty nasty NPC.
Although these are just some quick stats off the top of my head from memory on him.... I would need to reread the old module to work up more accurate ones. (I will take a look over the next day or so and work something up, just to give an idea)
Upon further review, I definetely continue to recommend the Mind Mage prestige class from Dragon Magazine #313 as the best way to achieve the prerequisites and keep even caster/manifester levels without losing any . If you take 5 levels of Wizard, 3 levels of Psion, 10 levels of Mind Mage, and 4 levels of Cerebremancer, you can meet all the requirements for the transformation, at character level 22, with a manifester level of 25,and a caster level of 27, and when using the Mind Mage's Psi-Spell abilities, which perfectly complement and work with Dragon Magic, you get to add DOUBLE your intelligence modifier (instead of single) to the save DCs for your spells and powers. The combination of these abilities , plus the Psi-Spell feats from Dragon #313, in tandem with the Dragon abilities, make a truly unstoppable character. If you go the straight wizard/psion route, you have to be a level 21 wiz/11 psion at the very least, with a sizeable gulf between your manifester and caster levels as compared to your character level. If you don't have Dragon #313 (There's MANY ways to get ahold of the issue...) you should definetely use Cerebremancer to gain the prerequisites, in order to keep you effective manifester/caster levels as high and equal as possible.
But if you go the route I recommend, you can be a fully transformed Dragon by level 32, (granted, you burn a LOT of XP doing the Metamporphosis spells, but there's ways around that) , and weild unimaginable might. The Tablelands can be yours!
And once again, HUGE thanks to the Epic Bureau for giving us the Dragon!
Yeah I have looked at the mind mage too.... and it would make really powerfull dragons. (unfortunately there seems to be a bit of power creep in alot of the prestige classes from dragon magazines, which can lead to some serious power gaming if you allow them willy nilly in your games.) Actually just using the rules from the core books and the expanded psi handbook you can have a start transforming into a dragon by level 21 and take your first level of the dragon class at 22. And it would even be technically possible to complete the transformation at 22..... mind you the chances are pretty much miniscule even with items that grant massive bonuses on spellcraft rolls.
minimum combination of levels needed to get the dragon prestige class is wizard 7/ psion 3/cerebremancer 11 (11th level taken for your 21st character level to get epic spellcasting and cast the first transformation.)
oh and as to the way around XP costs on the spells.... the orbs allow you to do that, but the transfer rate is EXTREMELY low..... only 5xp/level stored and used to mitigate the costs. This simulates the sheer volume of animal life cost of the original spells quite well I feel.
So im guessing Borys will be a fully metamorphed dragon (all the spells) and a low level in the PrC? whereas Dregoth is up to the 9th spell, and most/all the levels in the PrC?
How will it be for the others? I guess the spells will match up to how they were in 2nd ED but will there be much variance in the attained levels of the PrC?
And does Hamanu have his own PrC? or different spells?
I can see a 'wait and find out' reply coming to this.
Looking good. Soon DracoChapel will live again - in 100% compliant 3.5ED
So im guessing Borys will be a fully metamorphed dragon (all the spells) and a low level in the PrC? whereas Dregoth is up to the 9th spell, and most/all the levels in the PrC?
As an Epic PrC, there really is no such thing as "most" or "all" the levels, as the level progression simply extends to infinity, following the set patterns of the listed levels. And where you said that about Borys having fewer levels of the PrC - the thing is - what was he doing after the metamorphosis is complete? There is nothing someone from taking more levels in the PrC after they've done the 10th spell. As such, he's had a few hundred years to advance in his PrC.
How will it be for the others? I guess the spells will match up to how they were in 2nd ED but will there be much variance in the attained levels of the PrC?
And does Hamanu have his own PrC? or different spells?
I can see a 'wait and find out' reply coming to this.
Probably correct on that last line there.
Further, can someone clarify the rampage rules? Say I just made the jump to stage 5. I make the DC against rage at 10+17 (backlash damage) and succeed. For how long am I sane before I have to make the DC again? Do I get 17 months of sanity? Suppose I do; at the end of those 17 months do I make another roll of 27? Suppose I fail. At the end of the 17 months do I make another DC of 27? Or 30? Etc etc . . .
If one makes jumps through the rampage stages, what sort of DC does one have to make to prevent a rampage?
I would suggest an addition to the rules, like a sidebar or extra section, that clarifies what happens when one jumps through different stages. Also, probably state that having cast previous stage spells are required to cast latter stage spells (or what's stopping me from simply casting DM 10 and being done with it?).
Now if I should know this, sorry: but the only pre-req for casting the spells is being able to cast epic magic, right? So can an epic caster cast the spell on someone else? Also, will resultant LAs be forthcoming with the rest of the rules?
Finally, can one be a dragon by casting all the dragon spells, but not have any levels in the PrC? So my Defiler 21 casts the spell and begins the transformation but has no manifesting abilities whatsoever? And becomes a stage 10 dragon while still being a level 21 defiler? But cannot enter the PrC until he gains level 6 manifesting abilities?
That's everything that springs to mind on first reading. If anyone can help clarify these questions, awesome possum. And very well-done guys! This is great!
nick! yay, dragons!
A couple of quick questions - the Dragon Metamorphosis spells list the cost to develop in gold pieces. Should this be listed in ceramic pieces instead or is the intention to have the costs to be in gp so that they remain very highly priced?
I'd also assume that the costs for the obsidian orbs should be in cp - at present there is no coin type listed.
I'd address some minor formatting issues (ability scores and saves need to be capitalized, use of "exp" instead of XP, blah blah) but that can wait until a later stage, I guess
.Is there a requirement still for dragons to have a ziggurat as a focus for their spell when they cast the transformations? Will the final version include this sort of information?
Damn it really sucks to be in Korea where the timezone is totally different than everywher else and when I'm having all these thoughts and questions and ideas everyone else is asleep or working and unable to comment. Grr at you, timezone!
as I said I only got to glance at it.. but let me see if I'm right here, Psionic Enchantments are basically a way to supercharge existing spells?? seems "kinda" plain... however.. looking back at the 2e psionic enchantments.. some of those were merely more powerful versions of lower level spells or magical items.. (look, here's an instant fortress! here's a bunch of magical weapons.. useable on one creature or group. here's lots of trees or bushes and grass...) they did primarily just increase the areas and scope of regular spells.. but to such a degree that things were always epic... I see no problem with the work there..
though I may wish for more of those abilities per level or more to choose from.. just a couple... so that all the SK's aren't too much alike.. certain powers I could see most if not all taking at their first opportunity.. and after that... they have only what.. 2 others to snag?? kinda limiting... could be appropriate... I just like giving flexability and variety a bit more scope, that's all..
ummmm... liked the physical stats and all... is that sufficient though on AC?? I mean, with the levels they have.. a fighter or such of around equivalent level is gonna slash them a new one... sure they have magic and psionics and all.... but the heartwood spear alone shouldn't be enough for a lone fighter to takle a dragon or SK.. (ok, yes, the heartwood spear ignores AC, I know.. I'm just referencing the arcane and manifesting resistance it grants).. in 2e sure a 30th level fighter could smack a 30th level dragon's AC with eas as long as he had the appropriate weapon.. but.. I always thought that Dragons should be more of a juggernaught... you know? tough for even the tough guys to hit... just on physical attributes alone... and I don't know, I may be reading this wrong (it is nearly 4am) but he gets a +23 to his Natural AC with the 8th casting.. but none the 9th or 10th unless it comes from size increments?? what would the total be with size then starting at a humans medium?? 27? (be easy on me, I'm tired...)
other than that everything looks good.. I like it.. everyone else hit on great stuff in their comments..
one small question... the avangion is next... I've always seen the avangion as someone immune to a dragon's biggest asset.. A dragon's biggest gain is his body (in Dragon Kings, Dragons got fewer psionic powers than psions of their level, and they needed obsidian orbs to cast their psionic enchantments...) so while their magic was powerful, and their mind keen.. their body was the biggest freebie... they were the equivalent to the greatest of red dragons and had the fighting prowess of a 23rd level fighter.. (2e rules) however Avangions were immune to physical damage from up to the most potent of weapons (+5 in 2e while a dragon was protected from only up to +2) an avangion got his SR in small portions throughout the process rather than the end (big defensive advantage) and he never needed obsidian orbs, nor was there mention of fewer psionic powers... (and with that increase to wisdom, to me, it was assumed an avangion would try to tackle a dragon mind to mind rather than magic to magic.. (huge aura of protection not withstanding he would still be drained by the dragon to fuel a spell)...
so my question is.. does Athas.org also see the avangion as physically weak but immune to most damages and mentally superior to a dragon?? (he may not be able to kick as much but, but he can take more hits) yes / no? That's how I saw them being balanced..
Question: how does one mimic the effect of Borys or Kalak or AbalacheRe or Kalid-Ma jumping through stages? Just that they've cast the appropriate spells all at once? Are we going with the Borys actually has wings line of thought?
Further, can someone clarify the rampage rules? Say I just made the jump to stage 5. I make the DC against rage at 10+17 (backlash damage) and succeed. For how long am I sane before I have to make the DC again? Do I get 17 months of sanity? Suppose I do; at the end of those 17 months do I make another roll of 27? Suppose I fail. At the end of the 17 months do I make another DC of 27? Or 30? Etc etc . . .
If one makes jumps through the rampage stages, what sort of DC does one have to make to prevent a rampage?
I would suggest an addition to the rules, like a sidebar or extra section, that clarifies what happens when one jumps through different stages. Also, probably state that having cast previous stage spells are required to cast latter stage spells (or what's stopping me from simply casting DM 10 and being done with it?).
Now if I should know this, sorry: but the only pre-req for casting the spells is being able to cast epic magic, right? So can an epic caster cast the spell on someone else? Also, will resultant LAs be forthcoming with the rest of the rules?
Finally, can one be a dragon by casting all the dragon spells, but not have any levels in the PrC? So my Defiler 21 casts the spell and begins the transformation but has no manifesting abilities whatsoever? And becomes a stage 10 dragon while still being a level 21 defiler? But cannot enter the PrC until he gains level 6 manifesting abilities?
to "jump stages" you would either need to research a totally new spell using the lifeshape seed, (and thus pay the cost of totally researching a new spell instead of already having them like the SK's do from assisting in Borys transformation.) or as Kalak was doing, cast them in succession.
Rampage as we were working on them is a single time issue with each time you cast the spell..... if you succeed in the roll you are fine untill the next spell. If you fail you rampage for a period of time equal to the backlash roll in months..... ie on a 17d6, you are looking at 17 to 102 months (up to 8 and a half years)
Meant to have it state you had to cast prior versions of the spell before casting the current.... missed another one
And you are correct a wizard can cast all 10 spells without ever getting the manifesting levels needed to take the prestige class..... but then again a wizard could already do that by making a spell with the transform seed..... they just lose out on the most powerfull abilities if they do not take the prestige class though.... and yes it could be cast on others, remember in the fluff Borys "made" the other champions sorcerer kings.... (you would have to research another version of the spell to cast it on others though. And this explains the length of Borys rampage..... if the other SK's cast the spells in succession on him, his rampage would have lasted the combined lenght of all the failed rampage checks.)
A couple of quick questions - the Dragon Metamorphosis spells list the cost to develop in gold pieces. Should this be listed in ceramic pieces instead or is the intention to have the costs to be in gp so that they remain very highly priced?
I'd also assume that the costs for the obsidian orbs should be in cp - at present there is no coin type listed.
I'd address some minor formatting issues (ability scores and saves need to be capitalized, use of "exp" instead of XP, blah blah) but that can wait until a later stage, I guess
you are right we forgot to get all costs into cp before getting the release out and we need to address the formating issues still.
Another thought is restricting the advancement in the Dragon Prc so that in order to advance to a level one must have already cast the spell to reach that stage in the metamorphosis. In other words, to take 1 level I must be stage 1. To reach 2nd level I must be stage 2, and so on. Otherwise, who really gives a crap about finishing the transformtion if I can just load up on PrC levels and gain the real benefits without risking a rampage. Also, that makes other characters who are only partially along the transformation (ie: most all of them) have to find other ways (ie, other PrCs and classes) to improve their personal power and give them incentive to advance the transformation: in order to qualify for taking the next level of the PrC. It would also add to Dregoth's frustration: he is stuck ( ;) ) at stage 9, thus is unable to take more than 9 levels of the prestige class. However, when someone like Borys has done all the transformation stages and is stage 10, then he or she can advance in the PrC as much as they want. So once you reach stage 10, you can take the 10th level of the PrC and additional levels from 11th on up at any time now that the transformation is complete.
we actually considered this but the reason we did not do this is that the SK's have been staying at stages for centuries..... but they still were advancing magically. This system means that they could have quite a bit of power in the way of the prestige class, but they do not have the physical might of a dragon yet. And remember several of the SK's are deliberately putting off the transformations untill they can handle the rampage. (ie leveling up to raise their saves.)
One more question. Ziggurats.
Is there a requirement still for dragons to have a ziggurat as a focus for their spell when they cast the transformations? Will the final version include this sort of information?
Uhm, another question: there's no template involved, right? No making all hit dice d12s or anything, it's all just class hit dice? So a wizard 20/psion 20/dragon 5 will have 20d4+20d4+5d12 hit dice?
We really had not made a final decision on that at this point. (although the research costs of the epic spells actually fits quite well to simulate the costs of the ziggurats.)
No there is no template, and your previous HD stays as it was. This is another reason to encourage a dragon to take the prestige class, the stronger HD.
I definetely think hit dice should all be retroactivally switched to d12s.
The problem with doing that is you would have to really make the prestige class alot lower in power to balance that modification. The Dragon prestige class is kind of like racial dragon levels (not quite but close).... The transformation is not like a change to undeath were there is such a massive change in stats as you lose your con score or anything. It is just an evolution into a stronger race, so any racial HD would most likely need to change. (that is an idea on half giants and thri kreen though, have their racial HD "upgrade" but not something we have discussed yet.)
In normal campaign worlds if a dragon takes levels of wizard, they only add the d4 hit points into their stats, their wizard levels do not automatically gain the higher hit dice of dragons. Similiar here..... it is just that the dragon prestige class levels takes the place of the racial levels a dragon has.
The rampage thing isn't clear. I didn't realize that if one fails the save one rampages for a number of months equal to the backlash result (i thought it meant, for instance, that one would rage for 17 months, not 17d6 months).
So the official line is going to be that Borys progressed through all the stages at the time of his transformation? In a similar manner to what Kalak was trying to do?
Also, am I correct in assuming one of the following based on what you said? -- The champs cast the spell on Borys using the dark lens, he goes crazy, everyone runs off while he rampages, he comes to his senses, gathers all the now-SMs and makes them first stage dragons. Or, he makes them all first stage dragons, then has them all make him a stage 10 dragon and he rages and for that entire time they are all stage 1 dragons.
?
thanks a lot seker, this is all great.
ok, I only got to glance at it.. in general I'd say pretty good... doing well..
as I said I only got to glance at it.. but let me see if I'm right here, Psionic Enchantments are basically a way to supercharge existing spells?? seems "kinda" plain... however.. looking back at the 2e psionic enchantments.. some of those were merely more powerful versions of lower level spells or magical items.. (look, here's an instant fortress! here's a bunch of magical weapons.. useable on one creature or group. here's lots of trees or bushes and grass...) they did primarily just increase the areas and scope of regular spells.. but to such a degree that things were always epic... I see no problem with the work there..
though I may wish for more of those abilities per level or more to choose from.. just a couple... so that all the SK's aren't too much alike.. certain powers I could see most if not all taking at their first opportunity.. and after that... they have only what.. 2 others to snag?? kinda limiting... could be appropriate... I just like giving flexability and variety a bit more scope, that's all..
ummmm... liked the physical stats and all... is that sufficient though on AC?? I mean, with the levels they have.. a fighter or such of around equivalent level is gonna slash them a new one... sure they have magic and psionics and all.... but the heartwood spear alone shouldn't be enough for a lone fighter to takle a dragon or SK.. (ok, yes, the heartwood spear ignores AC, I know.. I'm just referencing the arcane and manifesting resistance it grants).. in 2e sure a 30th level fighter could smack a 30th level dragon's AC with eas as long as he had the appropriate weapon.. but.. I always thought that Dragons should be more of a juggernaught... you know? tough for even the tough guys to hit... just on physical attributes alone... and I don't know, I may be reading this wrong (it is nearly 4am) but he gets a +23 to his Natural AC with the 8th casting.. but none the 9th or 10th unless it comes from size increments?? what would the total be with size then starting at a humans medium?? 27? (be easy on me, I'm tired...)
other than that everything looks good.. I like it.. everyone else hit on great stuff in their comments..
one small question... the avangion is next... I've always seen the avangion as someone immune to a dragon's biggest asset.. A dragon's biggest gain is his body (in Dragon Kings, Dragons got fewer psionic powers than psions of their level, and they needed obsidian orbs to cast their psionic enchantments...) so while their magic was powerful, and their mind keen.. their body was the biggest freebie... they were the equivalent to the greatest of red dragons and had the fighting prowess of a 23rd level fighter.. (2e rules) however Avangions were immune to physical damage from up to the most potent of weapons (+5 in 2e while a dragon was protected from only up to +2) an avangion got his SR in small portions throughout the process rather than the end (big defensive advantage) and he never needed obsidian orbs, nor was there mention of fewer psionic powers... (and with that increase to wisdom, to me, it was assumed an avangion would try to tackle a dragon mind to mind rather than magic to magic.. (huge aura of protection not withstanding he would still be drained by the dragon to fuel a spell)...
so my question is.. does Athas.org also see the avangion as physically weak but immune to most damages and mentally superior to a dragon?? (he may not be able to kick as much but, but he can take more hits) yes / no? That's how I saw them being balanced..
You are right on psionic enchantments, they are like the archmage abilities..... also note each psionic enchantment can be taken multiple times to gain additional effects. (we have also been looking at some other ones that we have not decided if we were going to add to the final version or not yet.)
On the natural AC, a medium creature that completes all the spells would be size gargantuan and the total natural ac is +32 (+23 plus the +9 for size change) add to that they have damage reduction 15/epic AND metal (which means you need a weapon that is both metal and epic to ignore DR)
That is pretty much how I see avangions, but we have not worked out all the final stats on them so I really cannot comment yet. (sorry)
But why care so much about the transformation spells if one can simply advance and get the awesome powers of the PrC? Why would Dregoth care so much that he's stuck at stage 9 if he can just be merilly advancing in the PrC? I would think that capping the PrC based on the stage of the transformation would make sense in that aspect. Those unwilling to chance the rage just yet could be taking further levels of defiler or psion or whatever or associated PrCs to boost their will saves.
The rampage thing isn't clear. I didn't realize that if one fails the save one rampages for a number of months equal to the backlash result (i thought it meant, for instance, that one would rage for 17 months, not 17d6 months).
So the official line is going to be that Borys progressed through all the stages at the time of his transformation? In a similar manner to what Kalak was trying to do?
Also, am I correct in assuming one of the following based on what you said? -- The champs cast the spell on Borys using the dark lens, he goes crazy, everyone runs off while he rampages, he comes to his senses, gathers all the now-SMs and makes them first stage dragons. Or, he makes them all first stage dragons, then has them all make him a stage 10 dragon and he rages and for that entire time they are all stage 1 dragons.
?
thanks a lot seker, this is all great.
On why continue to advance the metamorphosis if you can advance in the class as far as you want.... I would say that it is the physical advantages that makes them want to. On dregoth wanting to complete it..... lets see ..... gains another size category (and all bonuses therein), breath weapon increases significantly, fly speed increases, gains a higher SR/PR, and the damage reduction 15 now requires both metal and epic to overcome..... I sure as heck would want that. These are some power hungry people.... so I could see them wanting it, and since he has already passed through the rampage..... it is nice. And the main thing is the class advances the magical understanding of their new condition, and I personally don't see that being limited just because they have not completed the transformation. (at the first spell their type changes permanently.) As I said we did look over that idea when building them, but it was hard to justify the requirement as you level balance wise.
on the rampage, I should have been more clear on it, I am sorry. the quote is
"Animalistic period requires a will save with DC 27,if they fail the dragon rampages for a number of months equal to the backlash damage.DC =10 +backlash,additional rampages increase the DC by 3 each time."
I should have specified better that the ramage period is equal to the damage total in months..... this helps simulate the sheer time frame of the rampage of the dragon.
And you would be correct on the interpitation of events of the transformation.... though we have not stated in which order the situation happened..... (though from the fluff it points more to borys casting the dragon metamorphosis I spell on the SK's then them combining power to cast the spells on him.)
And yes it looks like they cast all 10 spells on him, though it could just as easily be that they researched a whole new version that did it all at once using the lifeshape seed. (though, that would not explain why all the other SK's seem to be progressing by the 10 stage variant.)
overall interesting to play with
Why can you only advance +1 spellcaster level or +1 manifester level and not both at each level of the PrC?
This may have been addressed but I'll ask anyway.
Why can you only advance +1 spellcaster level or +1 manifester level and not both at each level of the PrC?
That is actually based off the epic level mystic theurge, cerebremancers, true necromancers and the like. In all of those prestige classes you only advance one each level. Mystic theurge for instance raises divine one level then arcane the next.... every level in the epic classes.
On the Dragons, we were looking at making them a bit more flexible though, to let each decide which aspect it would specialize in.... or allow it to raise both similiar to the rate for a cerebremancer.
This allows for the idea of Daskinor specializing, and thus being more powerful, in psionic powers. While Niebay worked on being a master of arcane magic..... even if they are similiar in level their abilities would be quite different this way.
Thats just my two bits. ;)
I see where your coming from, but feel that it would be justified to have a Dragon character advance in both spellcaster and manifester class level instead of one or the other.
Thats just my two bits. ;)
On the other hand, classes that advance spellcaster and manifester (or arcane and divine casting) levels simultaneously don't get any other class abilities.
On the other hand, classes that advance spellcaster and manifester (or arcane and divine casting) levels simultaneously don't get any other class abilities.
True, but we're talking "Epic Dragons" here. This isn't your average run of the mill PrC. The requirements are very demanding and it could even be justified to increase or add a few more IMO in order to qualify for the class.
True, but we're talking "Epic Dragons" here. This isn't your average run of the mill PrC. The requirements are very demanding and it could even be justified to increase or add a few more IMO in order to qualify for the class.
I was thinking along the same lines for Entry Requirements...
I think that "Able to manifest 6th level powers" is just too easy.
If this was meant to allow Psychic Warriors to become Dragons, I would propose "Able to manifest powers of the highest level available to your manifester class" (or something along those lines).
I feel that you would need to master Magic and the Way in order to access Psionic Enchantments.
I'm thinking any non-good at the very least .
True, but we're talking "Epic Dragons" here. This isn't your average run of the mill PrC. The requirements are very demanding and it could even be justified to increase or add a few more IMO in order to qualify for the class.
Actually the ones that offer advancements in both simultaniously, stop doing so in the epic levels of the prestige class. As I was saying the mystic theurge and the others start only giving advancements every other level in the spellcasting/manifesting levels on the epic levels of the prestige classes.
We really did look at having both advance every level, but balance wise it just overpowered the class to an extreme. This is also the reason the class does not gain either spellcasting or manifesting when it gains its duplex abilities..... balance.
Note the Dragon class is much more powerfull than just taking levels in the epic levels of cerebremancer too. Not only do you gain the manifesting and arcane spellcasting at almost the same rate as the cerebremancer, but you gain the ability to use animal life to power spells, a way to remove xp burn entirely from your epic spells, the ability to cast spells and manifest powers at the same time as a single action, and a more powerfull version of the archmages powers...... add to this D12 hit dice each level and you have a really powerful class. We had to keep balance somehow, or there is no way the Order could take out Avangions or players help kill Dragons in the old modules.
just a few thoughts
I was thinking along the same lines for Entry Requirements...
I think that "Able to manifest 6th level powers" is just too easy.
If this was meant to allow Psychic Warriors to become Dragons, I would propose "Able to manifest powers of the highest level available to your manifester class" (or something along those lines).
I feel that you would need to master Magic and the Way in order to access Psionic Enchantments.
Actually we had alot of discussions on that specific point. It was partially to allow psychic warrior to apply. but here is another thought, this also would allow characters that take specific psionic prestige classes to still be able to qualify. Metaminds for example. If you max metamind pre epic for instance you are down 5 manifester levels, which would prevent you from manifesting 9th level powers. And a metmind would fit pretty well for a dragon, the sheer quest for wielding power fits them.
Is there no alignment requirement for this PrC?
I'm thinking any non-good at the very least .
As the Dragon does not *have* to actually sacrifice living creatures to cast the dragon metamorphosis spells, they can choose to burn their own exp instead per the spells. You could concievably have a preserver dragon or a good aligned one..... not likely but possible
Under the lich entry in the SRD:
"Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s."
That way you could lower the hit die in the PrC to d4 where in actuality its the Template thats increasing it to d12.
Actually we had alot of discussions on that specific point. It was partially to allow psychic warrior to apply. but here is another thought, this also would allow characters that take specific psionic prestige classes to still be able to qualify. Metaminds for example. If you max metamind pre epic for instance you are down 5 manifester levels, which would prevent you from manifesting 9th level powers. And a metmind would fit pretty well for a dragon, the sheer quest for wielding power fits them.
As the Dragon does not *have* to actually sacrifice living creatures to cast the dragon metamorphosis spells, they can choose to burn their own exp instead per the spells. You could concievably have a preserver dragon or a good aligned one..... not likely but possible
I can't say I agree on that mechanic. Thats like getting rid of the alignment requirement for an assassin and saying your going to be good because you only take money to kill "evil" beings. Thats just IMO.
In this same line of thinking, are there going to be options for evil aligned Avangions?
If the Dragon metamorphosis is being treated as a Template (a series of 10) it would make more sense if at the casting of Dragon Metamorphosis I it changed the base creatures hit die to d12 like a lich:
Under the lich entry in the SRD:
"Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s."
That way you could lower the hit die in the PrC to d4 where in actuality its the Template thats increasing it to d12.
You are comparing a creature infusing itself with negative energy to the point where it is no longer living (ie undead) vs. a living creature just changing its type.
There is a big difference there.
The prestige class is closer to racial levels than anything else which is why the Dragon one has D12 hit dice. (note in 2ed they just gained multiple additional D4 hit dice at every level, and nothing was changed on the previous levels. So even using the fluff from 2ed does not warrent a massive change of this nature.)
If you take a red dragon and give it levels of wizard, it only gains D4 hit dice for the wizard levels, not D12 like its dragon racial levels.
One thing I, personally, think we may need to add is when the changes take place in the first spell to the dragon type, any racial levels the character has would transform into dragon racial levels. (so thri kreen and half giants racial levels would thus become dragon racial levels.) This would fit with the metamorphosis on the level it is.
I can't say I agree on that mechanic. Thats like getting rid of the alignment requirement for an assassin and saying your going to be good because you only take money to kill "evil" beings. Thats just IMO.
In this same line of thinking, are there going to be options for evil aligned Avangions?
Difference is that Assassins are still killing for money, no matter their other motives. (there is an assassin based prestige class in the book of exalted deeds if I remember correctly though....) However if a Dragon was only using animal energy to power their spells (ie a replenishable resource) and was not using the energy storing ability at all, I dont see it being impossible for them to be good..... just not bloody likely.
An evil Avangion could easily be possible..... just not a defiler one.
This is still a playtest version though, so the more feedback the better. We may decide we need to add additional requirements based on feedback. So please keep the ideas coming.
as I said I only got to glance at it.. but let me see if I'm right here, Psionic Enchantments are basically a way to supercharge existing spells?? seems "kinda" plain... however.. looking back at the 2e psionic enchantments.. some of those were merely more powerful versions of lower level spells or magical items.. (look, here's an instant fortress! here's a bunch of magical weapons.. useable on one creature or group. here's lots of trees or bushes and grass...) they did primarily just increase the areas and scope of regular spells.. but to such a degree that things were always epic... I see no problem with the work there..
Since epic spells and epic powers have no upper limit, they cover the grounds the 2E psionic enchantments did. The 3.5 psionic enchantment concept stacks with epic spells/powers.
You are comparing a creature infusing itself with negative energy to the point where it is no longer living (ie undead) vs. a living creature just changing its type.
Good point. Granted if the option to burn your own experience wasn't present you could justify that the would be dragon was infusing itself with the life force of others into a supernatural being akin to a lich but not undead.
The prestige class is closer to racial levels than anything else which is why the Dragon one has D12 hit dice. (note in 2ed they just gained multiple additional D4 hit dice at every level, and nothing was changed on the previous levels. So even using the fluff from 2ed does not warrent a massive change of this nature.)
You could have it that at each casting of the Dragon Metamorphosis (I-X) it adds a number of d12s to the dragons total hit point total. Additionally, the dragon character would be gaining bonus hit points from increased Con at certain castings of the spell to these bonus hit die and past and future levels of a class.
In this way, you could lower the hit die of the PrC to add to its ability or power base.
Difference is that Assassins are still killing for money, no matter their other motives. (there is an assassin based prestige class in the book of exalted deeds if I remember correctly though....) However if a Dragon was only using animal energy to power their spells (ie a replenishable resource) and was not using the energy storing ability at all, I dont see it being impossible for them to be good..... just not bloody likely.
I don't know, using animals to power their spells seem kind of non-good to me. Like I said, a non-good alignment might be called for as a requirement IMO.
To further support that, how can a being of good willing undertake this metamorphosis knowing that at later levels they're going to enter into a animalistic rage and no doubt bring great harm to the enviorment and others?
This is still a playtest version though, so the more feedback the better. We may decide we need to add additional requirements based on feedback. So please keep the ideas coming
I'm just trying to help out
So I dont mind at all.
Good point. Granted if the option to burn your own experience wasn't present you could justify that the would be dragon was infusing itself with the life force of others into a supernatural being akin to a lich but not undead.
You could have it that at each casting of the Dragon Metamorphosis (I-X) it adds a number of d12s to the dragons total hit point total. Additionally, the dragon character would be gaining bonus hit points from increased Con at certain castings of the spell to these bonus hit die and past and future levels of a class.
In this way, you could lower the hit die of the PrC to add to its ability or power base.
That was one of the reasons of the burning your own exp though, so a dragon could make the changes without having other life...... it would just hurt more. (like using a spoon )
We considered having the spells add Hit Dice, but to be honest, that left way to much room for abuse. The total combined con modifier, on a med sized character, for all 10 spells is +18.... so that is +9 hit points on every single level they already had...... This gives the HP bonus needed on previous levels..... but the dragon class really fits to have the D12 hit dice, it even matches up with getting multiple d4 hit dice at every level in 2ed. for dragons.
In other words, you could take levels of other classes and PrCs and still become a full 10 stage dragon?
I don't know, using animals to power their spells seem kind of non-good to me. Like I said, a non-good alignment might be called for as a requirement IMO.
To further support that, how can a being of good willing undertake this metamorphosis knowing that at later levels they're going to enter into a animalistic rage and no doubt bring great harm to the enviorment and others?
I'm just trying to help out
Using animals as a powersource to the point of killing them is not good..... using them to the point of tiring them but not perm damaging them, really is not much worse than drawing from plant life but not defiling. It depends on how you do it as a character. (Nok for instance only drained from animals and people, and for the most part did not permanently harm them from doing so. And he would be the main case I would see of a preserver dragon, just my own opinion though) Again I don't see it being likely to ever have a good aligned dragon, an evil avangion is much more likely.
And the animalistic rage is not a given.... it only occurs because the dragons rush the change before being ready to handle the stress. (will save DC is only 10+backlash dice, with a +3 modifier each time you try another spell with it. And a wizard could research a varient without the backlash or with lower backlash to limit the effects.) So if a good aligned caster rushed it then no they would not be performing a good act..... just like anytime you take shortcuts morality wise.
And we really appreciate the help
So, as the mechanic works now you don't even need to take level of the Dragon PrC in order to cast the Metamorphosis Spells?
In other words, you could take levels of other classes and PrCs and still become a full 10 stage dragon?
you got it.
In fact it works like this, ANY epic wizard with epic spellcasting can cast all 10 spells and gain the physical form of a Dragon. In fact they could do this before we ever did anything in the Epic Bureau. (epic spells could be made with exisiting seeds, esp transform seed, that can duplicate all the physical aspects of a dragon.)
However, you cannot take the prestige class and gain psionic enchantments and dragon magic without having cast the first spell, and having a powerful understanding of psionics. (as well as metmagic and metapsionics.)
Using animals as a powersource to the point of killing them is not good..... using them to the point of tiring them but not perm damaging them, really is not much worse than drawing from plant life but not defiling. It depends on how you do it as a character. (Nok for instance only drained from animals and people, and for the most part did not permanently harm them from doing so. And he would be the main case I would see of a preserver dragon, just my own opinion though) Again I don't see it being likely to ever have a good aligned dragon, an evil avangion is much more likely.
And the animalistic rage is not a given.... it only occurs because the dragons rush the change before being ready to handle the stress. (will save DC is only 10+backlash dice, with a +3 modifier each time you try another spell with it. And a wizard could research a varient without the backlash or with lower backlash to limit the effects.) So if a good aligned caster rushed it then no they would not be performing a good act..... just like anytime you take shortcuts morality wise.
I don't know, this doesn't really lend credence as to why Oronis would under take the effort of changing from a Dragon to an Avangion when all he really needed to do was just change how he practiced casting magic.
He could have easily stayed a Dragon and just changed his outlook on things vs. that he wanted to change because he was "tainted" with evil dragon magic and urges
Seems like either the metamorphosis spells should contain the entirety of the physical and mystical properties of dragon-ness and the PrC should just be a neat defiler/psionicist mixing class or the two should be much more closely tied together. Even if this makes the class's advancement not fair in an epic PC group is doesn't seem like that's really a big loss, since the transformation itself takes quite a lot of time and could lead to months or years of being unable to consciously act. This is essentially a PrC for an epic NPC, so making them gain more than one in CR per level is not unreasonable (especially since the massive physical changes exist outside of their leveling and require quite a bit of work/investment). I wouldn't really worry about balancing an Athasian Dragon right alongside of some guy who took 30 levels in Fighter. There's supposed to be more to them than just normal progression.
The Sorcerer Kings are powerful and greedy beings, but without a closer coupling of the transformation and the class itself it seems like they're just making their lives more difficult by doing them both. If they want the immense physical changes, they could just skip the psionics and cast the spell and if they want the mystical/psionic mixing (and the big HD) they could just meet the requirements and push the class.
I don't know, using animals to power their spells seem kind of non-good to me. Like I said, a non-good alignment might be called for as a requirement IMO.
I think this only works if you think eating meat is non-good. If you can accept using animals as a source of food, its not too much a stretch as using them as a source of magical energy. The reason why directly using plants is bad is that they're at that they're very near to the basis of the ecology. You remove plants, and the entire ecology collapses.
To further support that, how can a being of good willing undertake this metamorphosis knowing that at later levels they're going to enter into a animalistic rage and no doubt bring great harm to the enviorment and others?
Interesting point. But do they even know they'll be entering into an animalistic rage?
And if they do, they could always delay it till they have a will that strong enough to resist it. Or possibly create potions or items that could temporarily boost they're will saves.Interesting point. But do they even know they'll be entering into an animalistic rage?
It just seems to reason that a process developed by defilers to benefit and be used by defilers would in turn have some evil or not so good motivations behind it.
Actually we had alot of discussions on that specific point. It was partially to allow psychic warrior to apply. but here is another thought, this also would allow characters that take specific psionic prestige classes to still be able to qualify. Metaminds for example. If you max metamind pre epic for instance you are down 5 manifester levels, which would prevent you from manifesting 9th level powers. And a metmind would fit pretty well for a dragon, the sheer quest for wielding power fits them.
Nothing prevents said Metamind from taking enough levels in manifester classes to be able to manifest the highest level powers available to his class... even after becoming epic.
Hey Jon welcome back in..... hey, I am happy to answer the questions, we spent so much time working on all this, I am happy to finally be able to share/talk about it
Cool. I'll chime in if there's something I feel could be elaborated on. *back to working on DA part 2*
I don't know, this doesn't really lend credence as to why Oronis would under take the effort of changing from a Dragon to an Avangion when all he really needed to do was just change how he practiced casting magic.
He could have easily stayed a Dragon and just changed his outlook on things vs. that he wanted to change because he was "tainted" with evil dragon magic and urges
Ah but that is the thing about Oronis that is so interesting, he does not want to just do less damage (ie the way a preserver does instead of a defiler) he wants to rebuild and replenish what has already been defiled..... that is the reason he would have gone beyond being just a non defiling dragon and made the leap to become an Avangion..... An Avangion is a wellspring of life that replenishes others..... not just a slower form of drain.
It just seems to reason that a process developed by defilers to benefit and be used by defilers would in turn have some evil or not so good motivations behind it.
but then again it is the only method of wizard metamorphosis that is even moderately known of. It is known that powerful wizard/psions can even draw from animal life in the right circles..... but almost no one knows of Avangions. So there would be preservers willing to take a less than pure path for good intentions. (a good aligned character does not have to be good in every action, just most of them..... Again not likely at all to happen, but possible.)
Nothing prevents said Metamind from taking enough levels in manifester classes to be able to manifest the highest level powers available to his class... even after becoming epic.
true but we were just trying to make a series of prerequisites that would allow a wide variety of types. As I said we have discussed it many times, and depending on feedback we may be changing the requirements still.... This was a pretty hot point of contention even amongst us in the bureau. (I will not say which side I as on... )
If the PrC is not innately linked to physical advancements and thus these are purely class levels, why does it receive d12 hit dice like a Dragon? Just because they're now of the Dragon type does not mean any other future class levels would become d12s. The Dragon Disciple follows that path, but only because the levelling is innately tied to the metamorphosis. Otherwise it's just like the same example of a dragon taking wizard levels (except these new Dragons are only very minimally so).
Seems like either the metamorphosis spells should contain the entirety of the physical and mystical properties of dragon-ness and the PrC should just be a neat defiler/psionicist mixing class or the two should be much more closely tied together. Even if this makes the class's advancement not fair in an epic PC group is doesn't seem like that's really a big loss, since the transformation itself takes quite a lot of time and could lead to months or years of being unable to consciously act. This is essentially a PrC for an epic NPC, so making them gain more than one in CR per level is not unreasonable (especially since the massive physical changes exist outside of their leveling and require quite a bit of work/investment). I wouldn't really worry about balancing an Athasian Dragon right alongside of some guy who took 30 levels in Fighter. There's supposed to be more to them than just normal progression.
The Sorcerer Kings are powerful and greedy beings, but without a closer coupling of the transformation and the class itself it seems like they're just making their lives more difficult by doing them both. If they want the immense physical changes, they could just skip the psionics and cast the spell and if they want the mystical/psionic mixing (and the big HD) they could just meet the requirements and push the class.
While the PrC is not linked to a specific stage of the dragon metamorphosis, it is intrinsically linked to the metamorphosis.
Think of it this way. The first spell changes the nature of the body of the now dragon to allow it to use its own body to focus psionic energy and magical better. The PrC is the character practices those now innate abilities. (it is like a race with innate psionic ability..... if you have the base it is nice, but you have to take psionic classes to get real benefit from it.)
This is the same reason they have D12 Hit dice, the Dragon PrC is how they show they are exploring their new draconic nature, both physically and mentally. Very much like the dragon disciple PrC, but instead of the physical nature changing more through practice, it is the control of the form which is improved through the PrC. It takes spells to alter them more into the form, but it takes experience to learn the ins and outs of the new physiology.
And as for the SK's "just making their lives more difficult by doing them both" that is exactly the point of breaking it up into spells and a PrC. The SK's have NOT been advancing their metamorphosis much, in fact many were still in the first stage after thousands of years. By breaking it up we have that they were focussing on the magical/psionic aspects and not continuing the metamorphosis spells. This still allows them to gain power in psionic enchantments and dragon magic without their physical form having to change.
This also explains Farlcuun and other "new" dragons that appear further along in the physical transformation than some of the sorcerer kings.
I'd like to put forth the suggestion that the Dragon's SR/PR be made something that scales with level, like HD+11. The reason I think this is better is because it just doesn't seem right that a lesser creature such as a Drow of a level on par with the Dragon should have a higher SR/PR. Maybe the Metamorphosis spells could cost a little more gold or XP to reflect and balance this, but I' really feel that scaling SR/PR is an aspect an Advanced Being should have.
Hmmmm that might be an idea. I would need to talk to the others in the bureau about it to see if it is something we can work into the lifeshape seed or not. setting it as a base amount is easy and has precedence in the epic spell seeds. But that is a good point.
One epic-spell per level is quite a nice idea and I hope that all sides of the long discussions on this topic are happy about the way it is now. I most certainly am!
he was advancing the metamorphosis without advancing the dragon class
Interesting thought you bring ab. The dragon PrC only need's the first metamorphosis spell ... so it is possible to cast them without advancing in said class? Interesting ... this leaves room for quite a lot of tactics (like the late Kalak's or Abalala-Re's as of Forest Maker and so on). Nice!
If this is ment by you, perhaps an explicit statement of this fact might be nice to avoid any misunderstandings?
I have to admit before reading your post seker I thought that one Methamorphosis Spell was needed to advance from on Dragon class to the next.
Is it also possible to get cast said Metamorphosis Spells without advancing even one level in the Dragon class? If yes it might be nice to expicitely state that in the description as well.
You could concievably have a preserver dragon or a good aligned one..... not likely but possible
I would disagree with the idea of allowing anyone but defilers to become dragons. I know that we are able to step away to one degree or another from precedence set under the 2e rules, but the idea that non-defilers can become dragons contradicts all of the previously released setting material. Transformation into a dragon should remain the pinnacle of the defiler's art, just as transformation into an avangion remains the pinnacle of preserving magic.
Nok for instance only drained from animals and people, and for the most part did not permanently harm them from doing so. And he would be the main case I would see of a preserver dragon, just my own opinion though.
I would not describe Nok as a dragon at all. His long, ranty speeches against dragons in Verdant Passage make this extremely unlikely, imho.
An evil Avangion could easily be possible..... just not a defiler one.
Yes, agreed, and for the same reasons that you shouldn't be able to have a preserver dragon.
I would strongly recommend that "defiler" be added to the requirements for qualifying for the dragon prestige class. (I'd also say that defiling should somehow be incorporated into the metamorphosis spells, for the same reasons, but I can't really see how you would do that right now, heh heh. Oh well.... ;) )
One epic-spell per level is quite a nice idea and I hope that all sides of the long discussions on this topic are happy about the way it is now. I most certainly am!
Interesting thought you bring ab. The dragon PrC only need's the first metamorphosis spell ... so it is possible to cast them without advancing in said class? Interesting ... this leaves room for quite a lot of tactics (like the late Kalak's or Abalala-Re's as of Forest Maker and so on). Nice!
If this is ment by you, perhaps an explicit statement of this fact might be nice to avoid any misunderstandings?
I have to admit before reading your post seker I thought that one Methamorphosis Spell was needed to advance from on Dragon class to the next.
Is it also possible to get cast said Metamorphosis Spells without advancing even one level in the Dragon class? If yes it might be nice to expicitely state that in the description as well.
We might need to rewrite the descriptions a bit on it to make thing clearer. The intentions on the Class and the spells was as follows:
Any epic wizard with epic spellcasting could cast the dragon metamorphosis spells.
You must have cast the first spell to take any levels in the PrC. But you never have to cast any past the first one to advance the class. So someone can cast the first spell then take 10+ levels in the Dragon Prc just fine, without ever casting another dragon metamorphosis spell...... this is actually what alot of SK'd are doing.
I would disagree with the idea of allowing anyone but defilers to become dragons. I know that we are able to step away to one degree or another from precedence set under the 2e rules, but the idea that non-defilers can become dragons contradicts all of the previously released setting material. Transformation into a dragon should remain the pinnacle of the defiler's art, just as transformation into an avangion remains the pinnacle of preserving magic.
I would not describe Nok as a dragon at all. His long, ranty speeches against dragons in Verdant Passage make this extremely unlikely, imho.
Yes, agreed, and for the same reasons that you shouldn't be able to have a preserver dragon.
I would strongly recommend that "defiler" be added to the requirements for qualifying for the dragon prestige class. (I'd also say that defiling should somehow be incorporated into the metamorphosis spells, for the same reasons, but I can't really see how you would do that right now, heh heh. Oh well.... ;) )
We, in the bureau, may end up adding the requirement for it being defilers, personally I would remove it from my own games but that would be my house rule if the bureau decides it should be added. I will however give my personal view as to why I like the idea of preserver dragons and my opinion of Nok real quick (this is just my personal opinion and not anything from the bureau on this however.)
Ever since reading Verdant Passage I have had the idea of preserver dragons. Nok was using dragon magic in the books. He was casting wizard spells that used life energy from animals, and used obsidian orbs as a focus to drain said life. His speeches were against dragons that defile everything in the name of power. (and really who would know more about the dangers of a dragon than another dragon, and I dont see Nok as being above a little hypocricy.) Another thing is in one of the interviews that was posted on the boards with one of the original game designers for Dark Sun, it mentioned that Avangions were added in later to the rules for Dragon Kings and were not initially intended at all. (in fact that is where I got the idea of calling them preserver dragons, originally I just considered Nok a defiler in my games.... though one who only used animal life for his spells.)
Oh and the reason defiler Avangions does not work comes from their method of magic.
Dragons are wizards who have changed themselves to be able to use an alternate source of energy for their spells, animal life, but can use this just as indisciminately as they ever did with plant life.
Avangion, at least by how I see them, generate a wellspring of energy within themselves through the metamorphosis, which allows them to draw from internal energy for magic..... so if they were a defiler, they would kill themselves. Cast using internal energy without knowing when to stop and poof.... there goes your life force.
just a few thoughts as to why I feel the way I do on avangions and dragons.
Although if we did add the defiler requirement on the dragon PrC we would really need rules on "ex-dragons", ones who became preservers..... because that would have an effect.
We, in the bureau, may end up adding the requirement for it being defilers, personally I would remove it from my own games but that would be my house rule if the bureau decides it should be added.
Cool. I was thinking of house-ruling it the other way anyway, heh heh
.I will however give my personal view as to why I like the idea of preserver dragons and my opinion of Nok real quick... (snip)...
Good points, although I would see Nok as something closer to the Leech prcl (albeit a non-defiler version of the same). If the bureau goes for making dragons a defiler-only class, maybe there is room for a prcl that covers preservers who tap life energy without the draconic overtones. I am reminded of Sadira's points about obsidian being merely a tool and not inherently evil (or whatever her exact wording was).
Avangion, at least by how I see them, generate a wellspring of energy within themselves through the metamorphosis, which allows them to draw from internal energy for magic..... so if they were a defiler, they would kill themselves. Cast using internal energy without knowing when to stop and poof.... there goes your life force.
Interestingly enough, this sounds similar to the Leech's cannibalizing raze ability. I guess the various methods of powering spells have quite a few similarities.
Although if we did add the defiler requirement on the dragon PrC we would really need rules on "ex-dragons", ones who became preservers..... because that would have an effect.
Yes, those would be needed. But, given the existence of Oronis, I'd say those would be needed anyway.
Thanks for the swift feedback - you guys have done a great job here
.We might need to rewrite the descriptions a bit on it to make thing clearer. The intentions on the Class and the spells was as follows:
Ok thankx seker! I am now through the entire thread and do understand that part. With it we can now have powerful sorceror-kings (level-wise) that are still not much advanced in their metamorphosis (just like in the books). The only question would be why ... espeically if they are power-hungry and I guess they are ... not to advance the spells. The rage was given as an answer and I think that is a valid one (e.g. take the Shadow King as his patronage of Siemhouk (sp?) with that rage-supressing psi-power). As I PC dragon though I would just use the spell Moment of Prescience (sp?), that would give me quite some boost to make those Will saves (or use a magic-item that does that).
Furthermore thankx for the prerequisit to maniftest 6th-level powers!!! Nice!!
The requirements are already tough enough (especially when you have to add the requirements for taking the Epic Spellcasting feat which you need to cast the first metamorphosis spell) so anything more would have been too over-the-top.As a side note: Duplex sounds quite technically and not fantasy flavoured. What about renaming it into something like: Twin Rage, Twin Dragon Rage, Dragon's Fury, Twin Dragon Magic or sume such?
Just curious, was the option of breaking down the abilities of the Dragon PrC (i.e. metamixture, metapotency, etc...) into epic level feats ever considered?
Does the Psionic Raze ability cause the Dragon to absorb the drained power points from those in his defiling radius and replenish his own power point reserve or do they simply dissipate?
Second, Oronis should be a stage-2 dragon and stage-4 avangion. Both. Not one or the other. He should still have both the stage of dragon as well as the levels in the PrC. In addition to whatever he has for being an avangion.
First off, BOO on making it defiler-only! Letting preservers take the class allows for neato ideas like Nok the dragon. And Haakar the dragon—what happened at Akarakle would make more sense considering the fluff: he inadvertantly turned himself into a dragon!
Second, Oronis should be a stage-2 dragon and stage-4 avangion. Both. Not one or the other. He should still have both the stage of dragon as well as the levels in the PrC. In addition to whatever he has for being an avangion.
Oronis =
+ 
I second that.
Overall, I'm not feeling very good about the power level of the dragons. I think the advancement in either caster or manifester level is a further handicap to having split requirements to qualify in the first place. I understand the argument comparing it to epic mystic theurge, but in this case, there is no "non epic" dragon that we're building off of. Unless a character was completely optimized ahead of time, they're going to have a significant gap between caster and manifester levels already, and relative to their ECL they're going to be hard pressed to compete against something of an appropriate challenge rating.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the reason this was felt to be overpowering, specifically against what types of encounters or compared to what types of other characters because I would think they would be underpowered against a pure wizard or pure psion and the gap would only increase at higher levels.
I also am somewhat disappointed in the psionic enchantments special abilities. They are inferior to those already offered by the mind mage PRC mentioned earlier in the thread. It doesn't make sense to me that a mystic theurge could use a feat like empower spell on both his arcane and divine spells, but a cebremancer has to take both empower spell and empower power, particularly in a campaign with psionic / magic transparency so in my campaigns, a psionic / arcane character only needs to take one version of the feat to gain both the psionic and arcane applications of it.
I may be sounding like too much of a powergamer or munchkin or whatever other label people want to place, but I just don't have the feeling that the SK's and other dragons created with this prestige class and these templates are awe-inspiring near-godlike beings. They certainly have strong physical attributes coming from the epic spells making them fearsome in combat, but their mystical might (both psionic and arcane) seems to have lost a lot of its impressiveness.
I just think this version places too much focus on becoming a "dragon" that's very similar to dragons in all settings and all worlds instead of on becoming an "advanced being" that's a further evolved creature of psionic ability and magical prowess that happens to share some physical characteristics with dragons of myth and legend (those of other settings).
true but we were just trying to make a series of prerequisites that would allow a wide variety of types. As I said we have discussed it many times, and depending on feedback we may be changing the requirements still.... This was a pretty hot point of contention even amongst us in the bureau. (I will not say which side I as on... )
One of my players (yes, I restarted my campaign after a 6 year frolick through the planes) made a point in favor of the 6th level power prerequisite...
In 2nd edition, powers didn't have levels associated to them and you only needed to achieve 10th level to get access to High Sciences (Megakinesis, etc...) which represent mastery of Psionics in a given Discipline.
Soooo, since the suggested level conversion from 2E to 3E is all your levels in your primary class and half your level in your other classes, puting a 6th level power manifesting requirement is actually more restrictive than the 2nd edition requirement.
Glad you like it
On the reasons why Sk's are not advancing their forms.... those are going to be pretty much dependant on the Sk in question. Here is an important note though the SK's do NOT realize that the animalistic rage can be resisted, for the most part. So that is probably scaring them. Plus Borys would have been real teritorial so would have gone after any completing the metamorphosis. (see kalid-ma, etc..) Also the requirements for the spells are not insignificant..... and to cast them all would probably drain a city state of life. (and most of the SK's seem content to rule their cities and keep Rajaat at bay...... if they just went to war totally with each other the warbringer would get loose.)
On the name of Duplex, we may or may not change that to something more fluffy.... remember that the stats of the PrC are just out of character knowledge not in character.
Two questions.
Just curious, was the option of breaking down the abilities of the Dragon PrC (i.e. metamixture, metapotency, etc...) into epic level feats ever considered?
Does the Psionic Raze ability cause the Dragon to absorb the drained power points from those in his defiling radius and replenish his own power point reserve or do they simply dissipate?
Yes we did consider it, but in the end we found that making the psionic enchantments it would be easier to manage for people if they were a set of traits like the archmage or hierophant had. (this also had the advantage of encouraging characters to continue in the class vs just taking one level and then taking another class and taking tons of feats to get all the psionic enchantments, even though they were not actually focussing on learning them by studying their new draconic nature.)
On psionic Raze, the intention of this is to drain the psionic energy of people to power the spell not to give the dragon more power points. Kind of how they can drain animal life to cast spells.
First off, BOO on making it defiler-only! Letting preservers take the class allows for neato ideas like Nok the dragon. And Haakar the dragon—what happened at Akarakle would make more sense considering the fluff: he inadvertantly turned himself into a dragon!
Second, Oronis should be a stage-2 dragon and stage-4 avangion. Both. Not one or the other. He should still have both the stage of dragon as well as the levels in the PrC. In addition to whatever he has for being an avangion.
LOL looks like we are in agreement. An important thing though, it would be entirely possible if we make the prestige class have defiler only as a prerequisite to still have Nok and Haakar be preserver "ex dragons" .... it would just mean they went defiler and came back.
I would probably see an ex dragon as stating something like:
Ex-dragon: Any dragon that becomes a preserver can no longer progress in the Dragon prestige class. If the Dragon has become a preserver can still use all abilities of the class with normal chances of once again becoming a defiler.
However we are also going to need rules for if the character loses the dragon type... Ie Oronis. Most likely this is going to involve them losing the ability to use psionic enchantments, unless they have transformed into another type which can use them. For instance Oronis would have lost the ability to use psionic enchantments untill he had taken his first level in the avangion class, when he cast the first avangion metamorphosis.
mind you this is just a quick idea and we are going to have to work on this in the bureau still.
On Oronis having all abilities of both dragon 2nd stage and avangion 4th stage..... one of the things we have been building into the lifeshape seed is the idea that later spells overwrite changes of the same type.
So if you cast a spell that give a +4 natural ac and +2 str, then later cast one that gives a +2 natural ac and a damage reduction 5/magic.
you end up with total bonus of +2 natural ac (the latest version of the spell overwrote the previous +4), +2 str, and damage reduction 5/magic.
This would help to prevent powergaming a bit.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the reason this was felt to be overpowering, specifically against what types of encounters or compared to what types of other characters because I would think they would be underpowered against a pure wizard or pure psion and the gap would only increase at higher levels.
[:D]
I guess that's what makes it possible for a Halfling Psion to eat Avangion Tartar...
[/:D]
It doesn't make sense to me that a mystic theurge could use a feat like empower spell on both his arcane and divine spells, but a cebremancer has to take both empower spell and empower power, particularly in a campaign with psionic / magic transparency so in my campaigns, a psionic / arcane character only needs to take one version of the feat to gain both the psionic and arcane applications of it.
The default for Dark Sun 3.5 is the "Psionics are different" optional rule from the XPH.
I use Brax's"Athasian Magic and Psionics are Related" which are a nice middle ground.
Perhaps Spell-Power Transparency could be added as the basis of Psionic Enchantment... For Advanced Beings, Detect Magic would Detect Psionics (regardless of which version you choose to cast if using the "Related" rule)
Although if we did add the defiler requirement on the dragon PrC we would really need rules on "ex-dragons", ones who became preservers..... because that would have an effect.
Yeah, so what does happen if a dragon has an atonement spell cast on him?
On psionic Raze, the intention of this is to drain the psionic energy of people to power the spell not to give the dragon more power points. Kind of how they can drain animal life to cast spells.
Hmmmm, this seems to be akin to the Meta Mage PrC I wrote up a month or so ago located HERE.
I said it once, and I'll say it again. BOO on defiler-only, BOO! Not Boo-urns, but BOO!
It also eliminates the need for more junk about ex-defilers. Just keep it open and let it be open to anyone who wants or needs or thinks its the only way to gain power to accomplish their goals.
As for a dragon-turned avangion, yes let it over-write stuff. if a latter effect does something similar to a former effect, have the latter over-write. So while Keltis was a dragon, once he worked out a functional avangion metamorph spell his type changes again to whatever an avangion is (please let it NOT be fey, please please please!), and is no longer a dragon.
BOOOOOOOO on defiler-only!
The prereq's of 9th level spellcasting and having cast dragon metamorphisis 1 are somewhat redundant. If you can cast an epic spell, you have the epic spellcasting feat, which has 9th level spellcasting as a requirement of its own.
Actually considering that you could concievably cast the dragon metamorphosis "spell" as psionic or divine..... that would be the reasons for the additional requirement on being able to cast 9th level arcane spells. (though when we release the lifeshape seed there may be restrictions in there that does make it so only arcane versions can transform into dragons.)
Also note someone could research a version of the spell that could be cast on others (and per the fluff that may have happened in the past with borys and the other champions) which gives a darn good reason to require the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells for the PrC.
Overall, I'm not feeling very good about the power level of the dragons. snip...
I understand how you feel. The thing we are trying to make clear though is there is a difference between just a dragon and a SK though. The Sk's were awe inspiring to say the least. But on the dragons..... even in second edition a good part of 10th level or so can help to take down a weakened normal dragon. (Farcluun anyone?) And also realize that a dragon was weaker than an 20+ psionicist in 2ed..... so therefor a dragon should be weaker psionically than a equal level psion in 3.5. (at least if we want any continuaty at all.) Although a dragon that speicializes in psionics and uses arcane augmentation would be downright nasty.
example: level 23 character, wizard 7/psion 4/cerebremancer 10/ dragon 2. arcane caster level 17/manifester 15. takes arcane augmentation as his psionic enchantment. sacrifice a 9th level spell to manifest as a 24th level manifester for a power...... and if you use other prestige classes (such as the one in dragon #313) this gets even nastier.
This balances out the psionic portions nicely if you are wanting to go that route. (and almost all new dragons would go the cerecremancer route, SK's may not but that is another issue.) And to be honest the Prc is alot more powerful than a mystic theurge or cerebremancer, which are the classes it would need to be balanced against. The issues you are naming are the problems any multi class caster suffers, and we tried to offset this through the psionic enchantments.
I also am somewhat disappointed in the psionic enchantments special abilities. They are inferior to those already offered by the mind mage PRC mentioned earlier in the thread. It doesn't make sense to me that a mystic theurge could use a feat like empower spell on both his arcane and divine spells, but a cebremancer has to take both empower spell and empower power, particularly in a campaign with psionic / magic transparency so in my campaigns, a psionic / arcane character only needs to take one version of the feat to gain both the psionic and arcane applications of it.
If you are using the magic/psionic transperancy and your rules, then yes you would be weakening the prestige class. One of the big things in Athas though is while magic and psionics seem to have a relationship.... psionics does not protect against magic directly unless you have a specific power that does so.... and vice versa. Understanding of one does not entail understanding of both in most campaigns. And the mind mage PrC is not from the core books and so may not be allowed in alot of games.
I may be sounding like too much of a powergamer or munchkin or whatever other label people want to place, but I just don't have the feeling that the SK's and other dragons created with this prestige class and these templates are awe-inspiring near-godlike beings. They certainly have strong physical attributes coming from the epic spells making them fearsome in combat, but their mystical might (both psionic and arcane) seems to have lost a lot of its impressiveness.
I just think this version places too much focus on becoming a "dragon" that's very similar to dragons in all settings and all worlds instead of on becoming an "advanced being" that's a further evolved creature of psionic ability and magical prowess that happens to share some physical characteristics with dragons of myth and legend (those of other settings).
I do not feel like you are coming off as a power gamer, and I understand where you are coming from on this. The big thing here is we at the bureau have been working hard at breaking down where the power of the SK's differ from the other dragons.... and that is the big thing. SK's are the "awe-inspiring near-godlike beings" not dragons.... dragons are powerful but even in 2ed were not as powerful as the SK's were from the novels. The main focus of dragons seems to be the merging of 2 power sources not an overwhelming mastery of one or the other. Which is what we worked towards in the Bureau.
In 2ed the dragons were NOT more powerfull than a psinionicist of equal level in psionics, they were weaker.... but their mastery of magic and psionic enchantements put them on par. That is what we are trying to do.
And before you judge their mystical might..... the duplex power is quite powerful.... with it and quicken, you can literally cast 2 spells and manifest 1 power per round or cast 1 spell and manifest 2 powers.... that is something that normal wizards and psions really cannot match.
One of my players (yes, I restarted my campaign after a 6 year frolick through the planes) made a point in favor of the 6th level power prerequisite...
In 2nd edition, powers didn't have levels associated to them and you only needed to achieve 10th level to get access to High Sciences (Megakinesis, etc...) which represent mastery of Psionics in a given Discipline.
Soooo, since the suggested level conversion from 2E to 3E is all your levels in your primary class and half your level in your other classes, puting a 6th level power manifesting requirement is actually more restrictive than the 2nd edition requirement.
This is actually one of the reasons we were looking at a 6th level requirement. (also note, if I remember correctly, while high sciences were available at 10th you did not get your next science till 11.... which puts it at the same level as gaing 6th level powers for psions.)
Yeah, so what does happen if a dragon has an atonement spell cast on him?
That was one of the things we have to look at if are looking at whether or not to add a "defiler only" prerequisite.
If we do add one we will need rules for ex dragons, if we do not then it works as written... no more changes needed in that case.... you would just be a preserver dragon
Hmmmm, this seems to be akin to the Meta Mage PrC I wrote up a month or so ago located HERE.
heh.... great minds think alike.... we actually had that specific psionic enchantment written up either before or near the beginning of the year as an option we were looking at. As it was not my specific idea I am not sure were they got it from.
There are a bunch of other ones we worked up too that are not in the playtest version, as we are still going over those.
heh.... great minds think alike.... we actually had that specific psionic enchantment written up either before or near the beginning of the year as an option we were looking at. As it was not my specific idea I am not sure were they got it from.
There are a bunch of other ones we worked up too that are not in the playtest version, as we are still going over those.
Oh, I wasn't insinuating that it was taken from me, and please don't take it that way. I just found it coincidental is all.
Oh, I wasn't insinuating that it was taken from me, and please don't take it that way. I just found it coincidental is all.
Oh I did not think you thought that..... I was just thinking it was cool that we all are thinking on similiar pages on stuff. I really like alot of your stuff for the sunderred land project..... I will be using alot of it in my game
Oh and by the way, we do watch the boards and if an idea is good we are likely to use it. :D
Oh I did not think you thought that..... I was just thinking it was cool that we all are thinking on similiar pages on stuff. I really like alot of your stuff for the sunderred land project..... I will be using alot of it in my game
Oh and by the way, we do watch the boards and if an idea is good we are likely to use it. :D
Thank you for the compliment. I'll be adding more to it shortly.
This would work in the case of Nok, as I do believe he walked the middle path and did not favor good nor evil. This of course means that you buy into the idea that Nok was an advanced being, something I find to be a huge stretch. Based upon the novels alone, I think Nok is getting more credit than he deserves. His power as a Psion was on par with Agis (lvl 15 or so), however I do not recall his use of spells ever coming from him. He had an artifact w/ him in both encounters and Sadira was still able to take him out.
IMHO Nok gained his power from the last tree more or less. As the leader of his tribe the tree lent him secrets and aided him in the creation of these epic artifacts. The cane and the orb both are tools which allowed Nok to draw energy from animals around him. I never like the idea of Nok himself being anything other than perhaps a Psion/Druid. Of course this is just my opinion.
**Pennarin did you recieve my pics i sent you? I had a few errors w/ the email address you gave me, but it seemed to work this last time.
Good job guys, overall I think it looks pretty solid. I was personally in favor of making the requirements a bit more harsh (manifest 9th lvl powers) and having each stage/lvl of the dragon class = 1 caster lvl and 1 manifester lvl. That being said I can see the logic in doing it this way. I am against "good" dragons, I can see a neutral aligned dragon possibly but good doesn't fit well w/ me.
This would work in the case of Nok, as I do believe he walked the middle path and did not favor good nor evil. This of course means that you buy into the idea that Nok was an advanced being, something I find to be a huge stretch. Based upon the novels alone, I think Nok is getting more credit than he deserves. His power as a Psion was on par with Agis (lvl 15 or so), however I do not recall his use of spells ever coming from him. He had an artifact w/ him in both encounters and Sadira was still able to take him out.
IMHO Nok gained his power from the last tree more or less. As the leader of his tribe the tree lent him secrets and aided him in the creation of these epic artifacts. The cane and the orb both are tools which allowed Nok to draw energy from animals around him. I never like the idea of Nok himself being anything other than perhaps a Psion/Druid. Of course this is just my opinion.
I see where you are coming from on the requiring spell and level at each stage, and that is similiar to several of the options we looked at. Main reason we went this route is to better demonstrate the SK's refraining from advancing as dragon physically but still gaining power mystically.
I agree, as I have said in my previous posts I dont see good dragons as ever happening.... possible, but no dragon would remain good after changing, they would have to refrain from alot of their power to remain good. Extremely difficult but possible..... kind of like a good aligned demon or devil.... possible but not bloody likely
My opinions on Nok are just those, my opinions. I agree he would be neutral in alignment, although to be honest he was downright evil at times.... for a good cause. Actually from the novels I got the impression he was a more powerful psion than Agis. And as for casting spells, while the cane had command words to do the powers it cast, I do not remember Nok needing to use command words when he was using the obsidian orb focus he wore as a necklace in his battles with Sadira..... the same kind of orbs a dragon uses.... This added to the Q&A presented on the boards of one of the original game designers where they stated that the avangions were not in the original plans for Athas, and they even mentioned preserver dragons (and if I remember correctly Nok was mentioned in relation to this) is what lead me to the idea of Nok being a preserver dragon. (prior to that I just considered him a defiler dragon) I always wondered how a artifact from the late blue age/early green age (the last tree) was able to create items that use "dragon magic" the ability to cast wizard spells using animal life energy.
Overall IMHO Nok was a bit more than just a psion/druid....
I see where you are coming from on the requiring spell and level at each stage, and that is similiar to several of the options we looked at. Main reason we went this route is to better demonstrate the SK's refraining from advancing as dragon physically but still gaining power mystically.
I agree, as I have said in my previous posts I dont see good dragons as ever happening.... possible, but no dragon would remain good after changing, they would have to refrain from alot of their power to remain good. Extremely difficult but possible..... kind of like a good aligned demon or devil.... possible but not bloody likely
My opinions on Nok are just those, my opinions. I agree he would be neutral in alignment, although to be honest he was downright evil at times.... for a good cause. Actually from the novels I got the impression he was a more powerful psion than Agis. And as for casting spells, while the cane had command words to do the powers it cast, I do not remember Nok needing to use command words when he was using the obsidian orb focus he wore as a necklace in his battles with Sadira..... the same kind of orbs a dragon uses.... This added to the Q&A presented on the boards of one of the original game designers where they stated that the avangions were not in the original plans for Athas, and they even mentioned preserver dragons (and if I remember correctly Nok was mentioned in relation to this) is what lead me to the idea of Nok being a preserver dragon. (prior to that I just considered him a defiler dragon) I always wondered how a artifact from the late blue age/early green age (the last tree) was able to create items that use "dragon magic" the ability to cast wizard spells using animal life energy.
Overall IMHO Nok was a bit more than just a psion/druid....
Good point but by 2E standards a halfling could not become an Avangion or Dragon. As such I had to find some sort of reasoning as to how he did what he did. With him being defeated by Sadira w/o any type of grand spectacle I felt that "dragon" status just gave him more credit than he deserved.
Regarding the interview you mentioned: The more time that passes and the more things are discussed, the more I think that DS was over run w/ unexplainable contradictions. In hind-sight some have tried to explain them, but it seems that many may have been simple editing mistakes or due to lack of research. Also, Nok was a powerful Psion. His ability to access his new creation (the orb he wore in "The Amber Enchantress") may have been through psionic means.
Making Nok a dragon makes things much more interesting, but then how did Sadira ever defeat a Dragon armed w/ what seemed to be an artifact (if i remember correctly, the book made a reference to the similarities between the cane and the orb), by means of a simple fireball spell??
Good point but by 2E standards a halfling could not become an Avangion or Dragon. As such I had to find some sort of reasoning as to how he did what he did. With him being defeated by Sadira w/o any type of grand spectacle I felt that "dragon" status just gave him more credit than he deserved.
Regarding the interview you mentioned: The more time that passes and the more things are discussed, the more I think that DS was over run w/ unexplainable contradictions. In hind-sight some have tried to explain them, but it seems that many may have been simple editing mistakes or due to lack of research. Also, Nok was a powerful Psion. His ability to access his new creation (the orb he wore in "The Amber Enchantress") may have been through psionic means.
Making Nok a dragon makes things much more interesting, but then how did Sadira ever defeat a Dragon armed w/ what seemed to be an artifact (if i remember correctly, the book made a reference to the similarities between the cane and the orb), by means of a simple fireball spell??
Ahh but there was a grand spectacle she sacrificed an artifact (and I agree whole heartedly with the cane being at least a epic magic item) to destroy his obsidian orb after he had drained a large amount of energy to cast the spell to kill her. I saw that as the equivelent to breaking a staff of the magi on him. That is what almost killed him, then she used the fireball to finnish him off. (btw in my campaigns that was not the end of Nok, he just had no reason to go back after Sadira after that as the cane was no longer in the wrong hands. He recovered over time and is still in the forest ridge in my games.) This explains how a mid teen wizard was able to take a dragon..... she destroyed an artifact to do it, same as they did later in the books with the artifacts from rajaat on the SK's
The similarities on the orb he wore and the cane in the novels always seemed to me to indicate it was because Nok made the cane to simulate his abilities for his allies so they could work against his enemies. Again this is just my opinion on it.
I totally agree that alot of contradictions on the game came up and we are all try to retcon them in
Just my personal take on Nok though, nothing official. It explained alot about his personality though and how he was able to do everything he was in the books.
Ahh but there was a grand spectacle she sacrificed an artifact (and I agree whole heartedly with the cane being at least a epic magic item) to destroy his obsidian orb after he had drained a large amount of energy to cast the spell to kill her. I saw that as the equivelent to breaking a staff of the magi on him. That is what almost killed him, then she used the fireball to finnish him off. (btw in my campaigns that was not the end of Nok, he just had no reason to go back after Sadira after that as the cane was no longer in the wrong hands. He recovered over time and is still in the forest ridge in my games.) This explains how a mid teen wizard was able to take a dragon..... she destroyed an artifact to do it, same as they did later in the books with the artifacts from rajaat on the SK's
The similarities on the orb he wore and the cane in the novels always seemed to me to indicate it was because Nok made the cane to simulate his abilities for his allies so they could work against his enemies. Again this is just my opinion on it.
I totally agree that alot of contradictions on the game came up and we are all try to retcon them in
Just my personal take on Nok though, nothing official. It explained alot about his personality though and how he was able to do everything he was in the books.
Hmmm... I like that line of reasoning. It did seem like there was more to it after she defeated him...
Do you think it would be possible that he was actually something else entirely? A leech PrC or something along those lines w/ a druidic flavor? I can buy into him being epic or at the very least close to epic status, but something about making him a Dragon still doesn't seem right.
Thanks for responding, good stuff
Hmmm... I like that line of reasoning. It did seem like there was more to it after she defeated him...
Do you think it would be possible that he was actually something else entirely? A leech PrC or something along those lines w/ a druidic flavor? I can buy into him being epic or at the very least close to epic status, but something about making him a Dragon still doesn't seem right.
Thanks for responding, good stuff
Actually I had thought about something like that.... but his power level and knowledge of dragons is what pushed me closer to him being a dragon..... I actually started a new thread for us on Nok so we could focus on it more over there to let us keep this one for playtesting the new rules
I think I found, at the time, the right possibility, which accounts for Farclunn's apparent low IQ, his rashness, etc...
If you're interested in doing him with me, then I can send you what I did in the past using Xlorep's old rules and we can discuss what to do, on the boards or privately.
This is the same reason they have D12 Hit dice, the Dragon PrC is how they show they are exploring their new draconic nature, both physically and mentally. Very much like the dragon disciple PrC, but instead of the physical nature changing more through practice, it is the control of the form which is improved through the PrC.
But there's nothing about this class that indicates it is actually about getting tougher. The Dragon Disciple both had physical changes to become bigger and bulkier and advanced fighting skills (while largely neglecting magic). Most specifically, they're not actually becoming any more dragon-like (to justify having a dragon hit die). This class, like you've pointed out, looks just like a Mystic Theurge. Given that the Disciple was out there for reference I'm a little suprised you didn't just go with that style.
And as for the SK's "just making their lives more difficult by doing them both" that is exactly the point of breaking it up into spells and a PrC. The SK's have NOT been advancing their metamorphosis much, in fact many were still in the first stage after thousands of years. By breaking it up we have that they were focussing on the magical/psionic aspects and not continuing the metamorphosis spells. This still allows them to gain power in psionic enchantments and dragon magic without their physical form having to change.
Before I say anything here I have to admit that I haven't read any of the novels. I read through the RPG boxed set and the Dragon Kings book so I'm not too sure of how exactly the SKs are described/detailed in fiction.
That said, why does their advancement in magic/psionic power have to be tied to a Dragon prestige class? What's to say the stage 1-3 SKs aren't just advancing other classes while waiting at the early stage of Dragon-dom? Make Dragon about physical change and the special dragon aspects (and requiring difficult/dangerous/costly rituals to advance) and leave the magical and psionic advancement to more mundane level advancement.
It just seems like mastery of their draconic nature (at least of the physically buffing HP part) would actually require an advanced draconic form. Otherwise why can't they advance other of the more mystical properties (like SR/PR or DR) just by exploring their newly changed bodies?
Seker, although I can tell you right away we don't and won't agree on most points, one thing I want to try to work out is Farclunn, if you ever intended to build him up using the new rules. I have my own views on him that came from careful reading of the adventure, and from trying to devise a way for him to still be alive after his death at the end, not an easy task without falling into flavorless crap.
I think I found, at the time, the right possibility, which accounts for Farclunn's apparent low IQ, his rashness, etc...
If you're interested in doing him with me, then I can send you what I did in the past using Xlorep's old rules and we can discuss what to do, on the boards or privately.
Heh, I only get stubborn for house rules for my own game..... I actually am always willing to try and define stuff other peoples ways too
you can ask Xlor on that, from back when I was working with him on building the epic spells for his old system for dragons. It is only on my pet projects I become a bit of a donkey I would love to work with you on building him up..... sounds like alot of fun, send me a message with what you already have and we will get together and talk about how you see him and I can work with you from there to build him up. I really dont have a major "must have" viewpoint on Farcluun yet so would be glad to work from your ideas
In 2ed the dragons were NOT more powerfull than a psinionicist of equal level in psionics, they were weaker.... but their mastery of magic and psionic enchantements put them on par. That is what we are trying to do.
And before you judge their mystical might..... the duplex power is quite powerful.... with it and quicken, you can literally cast 2 spells and manifest 1 power per round or cast 1 spell and manifest 2 powers.... that is something that normal wizards and psions really cannot match.
This is actually one of the reasons we were looking at a 6th level requirement. (also note, if I remember correctly, while high sciences were available at 10th you did not get your next science till 11.... which puts it at the same level as gaing 6th level powers for psions.)
I would agree that they should be slightly less powerful than an equal leveled psionic character, and the logic behind the 6th level power requirement makes sense. My concern is that with caster level and manifester level being such important values in all combat mechanics, a dragon winds up being horribly underpowered in both areas, or focusing so exclusively on one just to keep it somewhat competitive that the other adds no benefit to the character.
As for the duplex ability I don't think it captures much of the arcane side of the 2e flavor. It's a nice ability, although with the level restrictions, it doesn't seem all that powerful in practice against appropriately leveled foes. I think there needs to be some kind of advantage in epic spellcasting or other high leveled magic for advanced beings, and that isn't represented in the writeup.
In my opinion, the whole point to the advanced being process in 2e was to develop self mastery with high leveled training in the psionic arts such that the being was able to handle magical forces that were so potent as to be impossible to manage for a person only educated in magic. The physical transformation that accompanied this process was primarily a side effect, a physical manifestation of their new capabilities.
Well "Flip", I was just wondering... Are we talking about the _same_ Darksun Campaign setting?
17th-level Caster and 13th-level Manifester are a FAR CRY from the 2nd Edition requirements of a 40th-level character!
I suggest that you forget about the existence of the Cerebralmancer Prestige Class and go back to the drawing board. We've waited this long for a complete set of 3rd Ed. rules, whats another couple of months?
Holding out NO hope of improvement,
Conundrum
But there's nothing about this class that indicates it is actually about getting tougher. The Dragon Disciple both had physical changes to become bigger and bulkier and advanced fighting skills (while largely neglecting magic). Most specifically, they're not actually becoming any more dragon-like (to justify having a dragon hit die). This class, like you've pointed out, looks just like a Mystic Theurge. Given that the Disciple was out there for reference I'm a little suprised you didn't just go with that style.
Before I say anything here I have to admit that I haven't read any of the novels. I read through the RPG boxed set and the Dragon Kings book so I'm not too sure of how exactly the SKs are described/detailed in fiction.
That said, why does their advancement in magic/psionic power have to be tied to a Dragon prestige class? What's to say the stage 1-3 SKs aren't just advancing other classes while waiting at the early stage of Dragon-dom? Make Dragon about physical change and the special dragon aspects (and requiring difficult/dangerous/costly rituals to advance) and leave the magical and psionic advancement to more mundane level advancement.
It just seems like mastery of their draconic nature (at least of the physically buffing HP part) would actually require an advanced draconic form. Otherwise why can't they advance other of the more mystical properties (like SR/PR or DR) just by exploring their newly changed bodies?
One of the big reasons we seperated it into spells that control the physical manifestations of the Dragon and the PrC for the for the more esoteric ones is this. The SK's are immensely powerful in Dragon magic, the ability to store life force, and the ability to combine the arts of psionics and magic into a single ability. We did consider making the dragon class just a physical change but that really does not fit with the way they were presented. The physical change are more of a side effect than an actual goal. (Think of the fact that they get D12 hit dice for mastering ther dragon PrC like a undead taking an undead prestige class which has high hit dice.... not quite the same but similiar, they are both exploring aspects of their nature which grant them a stronger tie to the energy that changed them. Plus in 2ed the dragons were getting multiple d4 Hit Dice each level which would about average out to D12 Hit dice.)
We did consider the idea that the SK's were exploring other classes for their casting/manifesting levels, but the psionic enchantments needed tied into the transformation and the best way we found was using it as part of the PrC and having them get the Pisionic Enchantments in a class that did not advance the magic and psionics just did not fit.
Thanks for the well thought out response to my post Seker, I feel more confident now that while they may not agree with my view of dragons and advanced beings in general, at least the issues I have were considered in the process.
I would agree that they should be slightly less powerful than an equal leveled psionic character, and the logic behind the 6th level power requirement makes sense. My concern is that with caster level and manifester level being such important values in all combat mechanics, a dragon winds up being horribly underpowered in both areas, or focusing so exclusively on one just to keep it somewhat competitive that the other adds no benefit to the character.
As for the duplex ability I don't think it captures much of the arcane side of the 2e flavor. It's a nice ability, although with the level restrictions, it doesn't seem all that powerful in practice against appropriately leveled foes. I think there needs to be some kind of advantage in epic spellcasting or other high leveled magic for advanced beings, and that isn't represented in the writeup.
In my opinion, the whole point to the advanced being process in 2e was to develop self mastery with high leveled training in the psionic arts such that the being was able to handle magical forces that were so potent as to be impossible to manage for a person only educated in magic. The physical transformation that accompanied this process was primarily a side effect, a physical manifestation of their new capabilities.
Arcane augmentation goes a long way towards evening out the manifester level not being as high for the psionic side. As I printed in a previous post a psionicly preffered 23rd level character (wizard 7/psion 4/cerebremancer 10/dragon 2) can manifest a power as a 24th level manifest by sacrificing a 9th level spell.
Duplex is actually pretty nice... thing free quicken every round without having to pay any extra cost or prepare in advance.
On advantages on epic spellcasting, take a look at the psionic enchantments again..... they work on epic spells too.... and that makes them nasty.
And on the self mastery part of the advanced beings, that is exactly what we were going for on the PrC portion. The physical changes really are just a lower portion of the proccess, that is why they were controlled strictly by the spells. The PrC is about learning to combine energies in new ways due to the new physiology you have.
Filp, is it?
Well "Flip", I was just wondering... Are we talking about the _same_ Darksun Campaign setting?
17th-level Caster and 13th-level Manifester are a FAR CRY from the 2nd Edition requirements of a 40th-level character!
I suggest that you forget about the existence of the Cerebralmancer Prestige Class and go back to the drawing board. We've waited this long for a complete set of 3rd Ed. rules, whats another couple of months?
Holding out NO hope of improvement,
Conundrum
Actually by the official conversion rules for 2ed to 3.x in cases of multiclasses you take all levels of their primary class and only (I forget if it is 1/2 or 1/3 off the top of my head) part of the levels from the subsequent classes. We in the Epic bureau were trying to convert the stats as well as possible to the new 3.x systems while keeping the feel and fluff intact.
by the rules we presented... without the cerebremancer class, you are looking at absolute minimum requirements being wizard 17/psion 11 or a 28th level character to start the Prestige class.
Something like Dragon Magi, or Dragon Monarch might be better suited.
This is sort of trivial I realize, but has there been any thought of changing the PrC from plain "Dragon" to something else. My reasoning is that beings can become dragons without taking this PrC. I feel it would help better clarify between the two.
Something like Dragon Magi, or Dragon Monarch might be better suited.
Actually I think this si a good point....
We had not really discussed it yet to be honest..... I personally like either Dragon King, or Athasian Dragon. (Dragon King fits the fluff best though as Borys made the other champions into "Dragon Kings" in the fluff)
Filp, is it?
Well "Flip", I was just wondering... Are we talking about the _same_ Darksun Campaign setting?
17th-level Caster and 13th-level Manifester are a FAR CRY from the 2nd Edition requirements of a 40th-level character!
I suggest that you forget about the existence of the Cerebralmancer Prestige Class and go back to the drawing board. We've waited this long for a complete set of 3rd Ed. rules, whats another couple of months?
Holding out NO hope of improvement,
Conundrum
Sound familiar to the old timers? A strutinan feel... aaaah this feel refreshing! :D
Please comments, you are not explaining anything.
Sound familiar to the old timers? A strutinan feel... aaaah this feel refreshing! :D
Please comments, you are not explaining anything.
With only one post to his/her name, Conundrum is something of a conundrum...
Filp, is it?
Well "Flip", I was just wondering... Are we talking about the _same_ Darksun Campaign setting?
17th-level Caster and 13th-level Manifester are a FAR CRY from the 2nd Edition requirements of a 40th-level character!
I suggest that you forget about the existence of the Cerebralmancer Prestige Class and go back to the drawing board. We've waited this long for a complete set of 3rd Ed. rules, whats another couple of months?
Holding out NO hope of improvement,
Conundrum
Hello, my name is Con. I'm a Black Knight. :P
The SK's are immensely powerful in Dragon magic, the ability to store life force, and the ability to combine the arts of psionics and magic into a single ability.
Are these things all really dragon-related? I don't remember exactly, but aren't all advanced beings about combining magic and psionics and couldn't the storing of life force in the orbs simply be a (dragon-related?) item creation feat?
(Think of the fact that they get D12 hit dice for mastering ther dragon PrC like a undead taking an undead prestige class which has high hit dice.... not quite the same but similiar, they are both exploring aspects of their nature which grant them a stronger tie to the energy that changed them. Plus in 2ed the dragons were getting multiple d4 Hit Dice each level which would about average out to D12 Hit dice.)
The 2nd Ed. dragons were also undergoing massive physical changes and (IIRC) the number of hit dice they got at each level (since it was variable) corresponded more to the extent of their physical change than to their progression in magic.
We did consider the idea that the SK's were exploring other classes for their casting/manifesting levels, but the psionic enchantments needed tied into the transformation and the best way we found was using it as part of the PrC and having them get the Pisionic Enchantments in a class that did not advance the magic and psionics just did not fit.
Meta_____ Feats that require being a dragon? After all since they only gain more abilities as their level increases rather than getting more powerful abilities these are essentially working like bonus feats and since the draconic heritage is merely a pre-class requirement it would make no mechanic difference if these were feats with such.
I really like this conversion, particularly how it's broken down into the Dragon Metamorphosis spells and the Dragon PrC.
One comment I do have is that I wish psionic enchantments were more reflective of 2nd Edition, were they most powerful spells available, and only advanced beings could cast them. With the 3E epic rules, epic spells are available to every epic caster with the Epic Spellcasting feat. I'm not advocating restricting epic spells to advanced beings, but I'd like to see psionic enchantments tied more to epic spells, rather than archmage-type abilities (all of which I really like, and think would make excellent epic feats)that affect 0-9th level spells.
One of the ideas I was tossing around when I started thinking about how I'd convert advanced beings was allowing them to add their ranks in Psicraft (or a fraction thereof) to their Spellcraft check to cast epic spells (psionic enchantments). This would allow them to cast higher DC epic spells than a single-classed spellcaster of equivalent level, which I think might be more reflective of 2nd Edition psionic enchantments. I never crunched-numbers on this, so I can't provide any details or speak to its game balance.
Levels in 2E meant a different thing than in 3/3.5E. Mainly the old levels required different experience values (for each class), and characters really did not have much advancement within that level, other than hit dice for the most part. In 3E, this radically shifted to standardize the XP values, include skill points, ability point advancements, and new feats. Levels mean a lot more in 3E and 3.5E than they did in 2E.
Now, the official rule for converting a character from 2E to 3E, who was dual class, was to take the highest-level class that character had, and convert it on a 1 - to - 1 ratio. Each class after that, you only give the character 1 level in 3E for every 3 they had in 2E. So, a 20 Defiler/20 Psionicist would actually convert to being a 20 Wizard(defiler)/6 Psion in 3E, for a grand character level total of 26. Mind you, this is the official conversion method for going from 2E to 3E, as per the pamphlet that WotC had available on the release of 3E.
Now, there also is some other issues to contend with. Multiclassing in 3/3.5E works great, flawlessly, until you throw in spellcasting or psionic manifesting (or both). These abilities don't scale properly, and a multiclass character who has one (or more) classes that are a spellcaster or manifester, will end up getting significantly shortchanged in the longrun compared to any other character. If you have a 20 Wizard/20 Psion, and have them go against a level 40 Wizard or level 40 Psion, or even a 20 Fighter/10 Rogue/10 Brute, or any other combination of multiclassing that does not have either a spellcasting or manifesting class in the mix, the multiclassed Wizard/Psion will lose, every time. Why? It the other classes will be able to resist the 20 Wizard/20 Psion far too easily (as a 20 Wizard/20 Plion has a spellcaster level of 20, and a manifester level of 20, even tho his character level is 40). The multiclass wizard/psion's spells and powers simply will be totally ineffectual against the other character level 40 individuals. Not exactly what I'd define as a "master" of magic and psionics.
How could that be, and why didn't it work the same in 2E? Because a 20 Defiler/20 Psionicist was still considered a level 20 character. So, compared to other level 20 characters, they would be gods, but in 3E mechanics, they are jokes and not even worth the effort to deal with, as they are compared against level 40, not level 20 characters. Doesn't paint the right kind of picture for Dragons, Avangions, or other Advanced Beings, now does that?
So, the obvious solution is, lower the requirements, and then help them out within the Advanced Being PrC's directly. Which to choose? That's where I dug in, and looked through the flavor of the setting. More often than not, when the known Dragons (the Sorcerer-Kings) are referenced, there is emphasis on their Arcane, not their Psionic ability. The term is Sorcerer-King, not Psionicist-King. It's Dragon Magic, not Dragon Powers, and the list goes on. So, the logical conclusion would be, according to the flavor of the setting, their Arcane is ranked above their Psionic.
Then, how to adjust this? In 3/3.5E mechanics, it is considered *bad form* to have a requirement that outright specifies a certian level in a specific class needed to achieve a prestige class. The quickest solution I came up with was, use the spell levels as the basis. So, rather than level 20 Wizard, why not "Ability to cast 9th level spells". And consequently, I'd have "Ability to manifest 9th level powers" - except that I had determined that I would be reducing the power requirements. By how much, tho. I flipped through the Psionics Handbook, and the answer literally jumped off the page at me.
There is a base class that is in the Psionics Handbook that did not exist in 2E - the Psychic Warrior. The Psychic Warrior is a manifester of psionic powers,. but only doesup to 6th level powers. I thought to myself, would a Psychic Warrior really be able to become an advanced being? Well, once again, I looked to the flavor of the setting. There are two Dragons, two Champions of Rajaat that had special dispensation from Rajaat - a magical, godly sword. Borys, Butcher of Dwarves has the Scourge. And Hamanu, the Troll Scorcher has the Scorcher (and his predecessor, Myron of Yoram). Ther's also a third sword, but whether or not that person was a Champion is a debate for another thread. Why would these get swords, while the other Champions did not, I asked myself. What if these two (technically 3) were more martial than the others, had more physical, combat orientation than the others? And would the setting support such an ideal. Well, Hamanu is the one Sorcerer-King reputed constantly to be on the front lines of any war he wages against any other Sorcerer-King, the others prefer staying in the background, or using other more mystical tricks than charging in directly into combat. Borys, in the Prism Pentad was reputed to do the same kinds of things. In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, Hamanu even mentions that Myron tended to be the one interested in actually doing the kills, rather than his army. So, these Champions could potentially be Psychic Warriors, rather than Psions.
So, with that set, I adjusted the level of powers to 6, so the requirements would be 9th level spells, and 6th level powers. Well, the two classes which reach these the quickest, would be Wizard for spells (at level 17), and Psion for powers (at level 11). That makes for a total character level of 28. Compared to the offical rule conversion booklet from WotC, which says a character level of 26, I was pretty close to the mark, and I went with it.
Then, 3.5E mechanics were released, and the Expanded Psionics Handbook shortly after that, with new Psionics classes and Prestige Classes. Notably the Wilder base class, and the Cerebrmancer Prestige Class. The Wilder still worked fine with the system, without changes. But then the concern I had was for the Cerebrmancer being able to be used to get the Advanced Being process before the character even reached Epic levels. However, for the requirements, with a Psion/Wizard combo, using the Cereebrmancer, the character would still have a character level of 20 in order to reach the spell/power requirements (3 Psion/7 Wizard/10 Cerebrmancer - a 13 manifester level & 17 spellcaster level), and the character would still need to be epic to be able to achieve Epic Spellcasting, so 1 more level of Cerebrmancer would make the character level 21 in order to accomplish this. Resulting in that character still being Epic, and without much of a schism. Everything still works.
So, in the end, the 9th level spellcaster/6th level manifester levels has a lot of basis on how the rules mechanics in 3/3.5E systems works, mitigates some of the troubles (but not all, unfortunately) that multiclassing in both a spellcaster and manifester class simultaneously brings, and brings the character do actually being 2 levels harder to achieve than the official conversion from 2E mechanics dictates. What may, on the surface, appear to be a watering down of the flavor, actually retains and supports the flavor of the setting, and keeps the Dragons and Avangions as rather powerful in the long run.
One comment I do have is that I wish psionic enchantments were more reflective of 2nd Edition, were they most powerful spells available, and only advanced beings could cast them. With the 3E epic rules, epic spells are available to every epic caster with the Epic Spellcasting feat. I'm not advocating restricting epic spells to advanced beings, but I'd like to see psionic enchantments tied more to epic spells, rather than archmage-type abilities (all of which I really like, and think would make excellent epic feats)that affect 0-9th level spells.
The problem with this is, compared to 3/3.5E spells, many of the old psionic enchantments are rather sub-par. However, I have espoused that we could develop some spells specific to psionic enchantment/advanced beings, that require some extra component in epic spellcasting, ensuring that it is only available to them.
One of the ideas I was tossing around when I started thinking about how I'd convert advanced beings was allowing them to add their ranks in Psicraft (or a fraction thereof) to their Spellcraft check to cast epic spells (psionic enchantments). This would allow them to cast higher DC epic spells than a single-classed spellcaster of equivalent level, which I think might be more reflective of 2nd Edition psionic enchantments. I never crunched-numbers on this, so I can't provide any details or speak to its game balance.
Interesting, might be unbalancing, but still, an interesting take. The thing which worries me is that Even cross-classed, Psicraft can reach the same number of ranks that Spellcraft can, due to the 3.5e mechanics/rules on how multiclass characters handle cross-classed skill caps. As such, it could quickly spin out of control. I do like where you are going with this, tho.
Arcane augmentation goes a long way towards evening out the manifester level not being as high for the psionic side. As I printed in a previous post a psionicly preffered 23rd level character (wizard 7/psion 4/cerebremancer 10/dragon 2) can manifest a power as a 24th level manifest by sacrificing a 9th level spell.
Duplex is actually pretty nice... thing free quicken every round without having to pay any extra cost or prepare in advance.
On advantages on epic spellcasting, take a look at the psionic enchantments again..... they work on epic spells too.... and that makes them nasty.
And on the self mastery part of the advanced beings, that is exactly what we were going for on the PrC portion. The physical changes really are just a lower portion of the proccess, that is why they were controlled strictly by the spells. The PrC is about learning to combine energies in new ways due to the new physiology you have.
I agree that arcane augmentation is a potent ability, but I still think that duplex on the other hand is pretty worthless, especially until the third level. In my experiences playing a high level caster or manifester, first and second spells get used in pressure situations (where the ability to cast multiples at the same time would be of a benefit) almost never. Not only that, but I'm assuming that since it's first, second, or third level spell / power, that would be inclusive of any metamagic or metapsionic additions as well.
Could you give an example of the psionic enchantments applicability towards epic spellcasting because I guess I don't see it. What I had envisioned was the ability to contribute PSP's as a mitigating factor to epic spellcasting, or some combination of spellcraft & psicraft for figuring a character's DC.
Duplex might be cool if it advanced faster and went farther.
I think the transformative aspect of the class are spot on. Man to dragon just like it was in 2nd Ed. I do think scaling SR might be useful, but it is mostly just gravy.
Ultimately the question is "what is balanced?" Frankly, I think the Advanced Beings should be hard to get into, but pay ridiculous dividends. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be hands-down the most powerful beings walking around Athas.
Ultimately the question is "what is balanced?" Frankly, I think the Advanced Beings should be hard to get into, but pay ridiculous dividends. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be hands-down the most powerful beings walking around Athas.
Balanced is well documented, and defined by WotC, with regards to CL, ECL, CR, EL, and the rest of the level/rating system mechanics that are in place. a level 20 character should be equivalent to any other level 20 character, however they ended up reaching level 20. A CR 35 creature should be an equivalent challenge to a group as any other CR 35 creature. As such, a level 30 character who is a Dragon, must be balanced with any other level 30 character whom may not be an Advanced Being. These are the rules that WotC provides, and that Athas.org must comply with. If Athas.org does not comply with this, then they lose the rights to release any Dark Sun materials, and all their effort is for naught.
Take for instance the Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild. It is a non-epic PrC that has full spellcasting for druid and wizard. It allows you to ignore ASF in druid armor, advance druid wild shape, and combines your familiar and animal companion into a single uber animal (which it, naturally, improves). Sure you lose out on some (3) caster levels, but a Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 has 9th level spells in both classes, dire ape wild shape and a mighty strong and smart dire bear companion. That is a pretty dang strong class, some might even call it "broken." And he can still easily use shapechange to turn into a dragon,
All I'm saying is that "game balance" and "true to your roots" lie on a continuum that needs to be... well... balanced in a conversion six years in the making. Pushing balance boundaries in the name of making Advanced Beings into something special and unique to Dark Sun is in my opinion a worthy project.
EDIT: Perhaps I should note that I'm not advocating a full mystic theurge progression for the dragon king. If it advanced psionics at even and arcane at odd (so 5 of each), I think it would probably be sufficient.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Interesting, might be unbalancing, but still, an interesting take. The thing which worries me is that Even cross-classed, Psicraft can reach the same number of ranks that Spellcraft can, due to the 3.5e mechanics/rules on how multiclass characters handle cross-classed skill caps. As such, it could quickly spin out of control. I do like where you are going with this, tho.
Thanks. Perhaps instead of adding ranks of Psicraft to the Spellcraft check, I could just add the advanced being's manifester level, or maybe just a flat base (10?) plus the character's level in the "Advanced Being" PrC. In both cases, there could even be an associated PSP cost (2 PSP per point of bonus?). Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I think I may hammer this out a bit more.
I guess I have to chime in a bit on the spellcasting aspect of the class. Caster level is so important at epic levels (SR, opposed level checks, etc). While I appreciate that you don't want full mystic theurge casting for the Dragon King, I think they need to get more than 7 levels of either psion or wizard. Even if you focus on wizard, you'll be CL 24 at character level 31. Those 13 psion levels (grace a cerebremancer) are rather unimpressive when compared to a character who has 9th level spells/powers in both classes. Shapechange is a great leveller and pretty much negates your transformation powers. Might as well just be an Epic Wizard with magic items.
Actually a mystic theurge in from epic levels (11+ in the class) only gives you arcane casting on odd levels and divine on even. Cerebremancer is the same way.... (this means a from level 11 to level 20 of mystic theurge you get +5 divine and +5 arcane caster levels.) so in epic levels mystic theurges and cerebremancers start really decreasing when compared to straight casters also. Any multi caster/manifester PrC starts giving diminishing returns in Epic.
but we tried to make the psionic enchantments worth the cost, and duplex builds up over time.
Duplex might be cool if it advanced faster and went farther.
I think the transformative aspect of the class are spot on. Man to dragon just like it was in 2nd Ed. I do think scaling SR might be useful, but it is mostly just gravy.
We were looking at duplex advancing faster...... and I was one of the main people reccomending spacing it out more. at the lowest levels duplex it not too powerful..... but at high levels you are looking at having the ability to cast/manifest 2 as one action and THEN getting to quicken a power or spell...... and you can do that every single round. That gets really powerful quick. If we have enough feedback on it we may looking at revamping it. (or possibly re-evalute if it is worth a full level of manifesting/casting.)
We also may need to take a look at possible a psionic augmentation as a counterpoint to arcane augmentation. That might help on the caster levels somewhat.
Thanks. Perhaps instead of adding ranks of Psicraft to the Spellcraft check, I could just add the advanced being's manifester level, or maybe just a flat base (10?) plus the character's level in the "Advanced Being" PrC. In both cases, there could even be an associated PSP cost (2 PSP per point of bonus?). Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I think I may hammer this out a bit more.
Hmmmm that is an interesting idea.... we may look at that.
Neither alternative could be defined as a competent epic spellcaster. Your spells are easily resisted by 5+CR SR and 1d20+19 has a hard time knocking out buffs with caster level 30. Being a dragon is dang cool, but somebody with caster level 25 shapechange has access to better physical shapes than your dragon shape (with the granted exceptions of "it can't be dispelled and you have a breath weapon"), plus can dispel your spells with a reasonable chance of success.
The minds of the CO Boards are much better at crunching the numbers than me, but being 6-17 caster levels down is an astonishing (read: unacceptable) hit for a supposedly "advanced" being.
EDIT: Granted, Practiced Spellcaster helps to bridge the level gap for a 24/13 dragon, but it doesn't help you not suck at psionics. I really do like this class. It really captures the advanced being transformation, but they just lack towering supernatural might.
Admittedly, the 22/18 caster (5 levels for each) isn't particularly stunning either. I suppose you can insert some Mind Mage in there someplace to get your levels up (but I don't bother with Dragon mag, but so I'm not too familiar with it).
First, Xular:
Glad you like it
Ardent fan of the old Dragon Kings book that I am, I would like to suggest something for the lifeseed. The Psionic Enchantments presented in Dragon Kings were the sole province of advanced beings. In 2e said Psionic Enchantements took the form of 10th level spells that could only be mastered by advanced beings who were not only powerful spellcasters, but who also have schooled their mind in the Way, to be able to handle such powerful castings. And even then only the bodies of advanced beings were up to that task.
The best equivalent to those 10th level spells of 2e I could find would be Epic Spells. If Epic Spells are the equivalent to the old 10th level psionic enchantments, then, as per the old rules, only advanced beings should be able to access those. Would this be a possible addition to your rules? Perhaps to be included in the lifeseed? E.g. Only beings transformed by at least one use of an epic spell with the lifeseed would be able to get the Epic Spellcasting feat - and even then only if they have at least one level in their respective advanced being PrC?
The first metamorphosis spell would then be the sole exception to this rule (just like in Dragon Kings and Preservers and Defilers of Athas).
Certainly epic "theurges" have diminishing returns, but the current model advances only 7 levels out of a possible 20. That is a pretty massive caster gap. snip...
I agree, we may need to look at some way of balancing the spellcasting/manifesting levels. (on manifesting the arcane augmentation goes a long towards balancing it up..... but we need to look at some other ideas as well to see if we can balance it better.)
Ardent fan of the old Dragon Kings book that I am, I would like to suggest something for the lifeseed. The Psionic Enchantments presented in Dragon Kings were the sole province of advanced beings. In 2e said Psionic Enchantements took the form of 10th level spells that could only be mastered by advanced beings who were not only powerful spellcasters, but who also have schooled their mind in the Way, to be able to handle such powerful castings. And even then only the bodies of advanced beings were up to that task.
The best equivalent to those 10th level spells of 2e I could find would be Epic Spells. If Epic Spells are the equivalent to the old 10th level psionic enchantments, then, as per the old rules, only advanced beings should be able to access those. Would this be a possible addition to your rules? Perhaps to be included in the lifeseed? E.g. Only beings transformed by at least one use of an epic spell with the lifeseed would be able to get the Epic Spellcasting feat - and even then only if they have at least one level in their respective advanced being PrC?
The first metamorphosis spell would then be the sole exception to this rule (just like in Dragon Kings and Preservers and Defilers of Athas).
We looked at it, but we cannot limit epic spells to only advanced beings. First that removes one of the only advantages of epic spellcasters. Second the 10th level spells in 2ed were more along the lines of 9th level spells with modifiers .... they were no where near as powerful as epic spells are in 3.x.
The system we are using for psionic enchantments can be used to modify any level of spell including epic spells, which can give the spells the boosts to make them equivelent to the old psionic enchantment. This means with the right metapsionic feats and psionic enchantments, you could actually use metapsionic effects on epic level spells...... that is a pretty nice boost.
The best equivalent to those 10th level spells of 2e I could find would be Epic Spells. If Epic Spells are the equivalent to the old 10th level psionic enchantments, then, as per the old rules, only advanced beings should be able to access those. Would this be a possible addition to your rules? Perhaps to be included in the lifeseed? E.g. Only beings transformed by at least one use of an epic spell with the lifeseed would be able to get the Epic Spellcasting feat - and even then only if they have at least one level in their respective advanced being PrC?
No, we can't make epic spells and powes available only to advanced beings. That would unbalance epic psions and epic wizards compared to their standard D&D counterparts.
Are there any DS specific epic feats that work in conjunction with dragons/ advanced beings planned?
really cannot discuss that yet. (but most likely)
Are there any DS specific epic feats that work in conjunction with dragons/ advanced beings planned?
None on paper yet, but the concept has been discussed and will be discussed more.
Maybe another psionic enchantment option available can be a bonus to caster and manifester level checks (for purposes of overcoming SR/PR and dispel magic/psionics). There probably should be an upper limit restriction to the bonus though.
Aren't there feats, epic and non-epic, that already do that?
The system we are using for psionic enchantments can be used to modify any level of spell including epic spells, which can give the spells the boosts to make them equivelent to the old psionic enchantment. This means with the right metapsionic feats and psionic enchantments, you could actually use metapsionic effects on epic level spells...... that is a pretty nice boost.
Sorry I am confused now. In the Epic Level Handbook p. 73 it is stated that:
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.
As far as I can see the powers under Psionic Enchantments are using metamagic/psionic feats. How are they supposed to help with epic spellcasting when said feats are explicitely disallowed by the Epic Level Handbook in regards to epic spells?
Sorry I am confused now. In the Epic Level Handbook p. 73 it is stated that:
As far as I can see the powers under Psionic Enchantments are using metamagic/psionic feats. How are they supposed to help with epic spellcasting when said feats are explicitely disallowed by the Epic Level Handbook in regards to epic spells?
Hmmm.... I might want to check on this with the others in the bureau on this one. Metamixture is as follows:
Metamixture:The dragon chooses a metapsionic feat it can apply to boost its spells.Using metamixture is a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.Treat the spell as a psionic power of equivalent level for purposes of determining the power point cost.The dragon cannot spend
more power points than its manifester level.Note:If the metapsionic feat has the same effect as a metamagic feat already applied to the spell,there is no additional effect.Metamixture can be selected more than once.Each time it is selected,it applies to a different metapsionic feat.Its effects do not stack,i.e.only one metapsionic feat can be applied to a spell using metamixture.
By this an epic spell would be converted into a 10th level power for the purposes of adding a metapsionic feat. (as Epic spells are listed as 10th level spells.) Unless I am reading this wrong this would circumspect the normal ruling on epic spells and metamagic/metapsionic. (I could be wrong on that purpose though as I did not write up that psionic enchantment.)
Currently the psionic enchantments as they stand that would effect epic spells are:
Arcane augmentation (raise your manifester level for the epic power)
path of least resistance
psionic raze
and far reach
Granted, Practiced Spellcaster helps to bridge the level gap for a 24/13 dragon, but it doesn't help you not suck at psionics.
Here's something that could help fix that issue...
PRACTICED MANIFESTER [PSIONIC]
Choose a manifester class that you possess. Your powers from that class are more powerful.
Prerequisite: Psicraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by 4. This benefit can’t increase your manifester level to a level higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can’t benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of non-manifesting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a human 5th-level wilder/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his wilder manifester level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 Hit Dice). If he later gains a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his wilder manifester level would become 9th (since he now has 9 Hit Dice).
A character with two or more manifester classes (such as a psychic warrior/wilder) must choose which class gains the feat’s effect.
This feat does not affect your power point reserve or powers known. It increases your maniferster level only, which would help you penetrate power resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your powers by letting you spend more power points on them.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different manifester class. For instance, a 4th-level psychic warrior/5th-level psion who had selected this feat twice would manifest psychic warrior powers as an 8th level manifester and psion powers as a 9th level manifester.
For those who are wondering why there is a lower level requirement than what was in the original materials, it has a lot to do with the mechanical changes from 2E to 3E (and 3.5E subsiquently).
**Snip**
Thanks for explaining the "design" process. This really helps in the reading of the rules and to see what thier intent really is and judge them that way instead of from a view that isn't helpful to the process.
Hmmm.... I might want to check on this with the others in the bureau on this one. Metamixture is as follows:
Yes please do so.
By this an epic spell would be converted into a 10th level power for the purposes of adding a metapsionic feat. (as Epic spells are listed as 10th level spells.) Unless I am reading this wrong this would circumspect the normal ruling on epic spells and metamagic/metapsionic. (I could be wrong on that purpose though as I did not write up that psionic enchantment.)
If that should be so and you circumvent the basic epic rules from the Epic Level Handbook, please do state so in the description of said power.
Currently the psionic enchantments as they stand that would effect epic spells are:
Arcane augmentation (raise your manifester level for the epic power)
How would that help? Epic spells don't use a manifester/caster level. Neither for duration or range or damage or some such. Those values are fixed. If you want to change those you have to research a new epic spell that does that. (E.g. Just like you pointed out that there might be a different version of the Metamorphosis spell that has a touch and not personal as its range ...).
The caster level would only have an effect when it comes to piercing SR.
path of least resistance
Ok this sounds nice to have even for epic spells.
psionic raze
Epic Spells/Powers don't use power points ... So perhaps if that should have an effect for epic spells too, it might be nice if it is explicitely stated that it does.
and far reach
Ok nice. With that you could just cast e.g. Dragon Metamrophosis I on others without having to research the epic spell anew.
What I would like to point out is: Those powers may be nice for normal spells, but for epic spells it might be nicer to have specific class features that exclusively target epic spells and epic spellcasting.
As for Ideas for some powers I would like to point out to the Elven High Mage or the Netherese Arcanist Epic PrCs (both for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting).
As far as I can see the powers under Psionic Enchantments are using metamagic/psionic feats. How are they supposed to help with epic spellcasting when said feats are explicitely disallowed by the Epic Level Handbook in regards to epic spells?
The psionic enchantments are by default not applicable to epic spells/powers as they are written. However, we could introduce specific psionic enchantments that affect epic spells or leave that to epic feats.
Thanks for explaining the "design" process. This really helps in the reading of the rules and to see what thier intent really is and judge them that way instead of from a view that isn't helpful to the process.
Between Seker, Xlor and myself, we can provide you with the rationale behind all aspects of the dragon rules. Duplex was mentioned earlier. I want to state that this is based on the Dragon of Tyr write up which said the DoT could use both a spell and a psionic power in the same round. If you progress in the Dragon class for 30 levels you get Duplex XI, which is an incentive for progressing in the class beyond 10 levels.
How would that help? Epic spells don't use a manifester/caster level. Neither for duration or range or damage or some such. Those values are fixed. If you want to change those you have to research a new epic spell that does that. (E.g. Just like you pointed out that there might be a different version of the Metamorphosis spell that has a touch and not personal as its range ...).
The caster level would only have an effect when it comes to piercing SR.
That is exactly the point though..... because it is a multi caster/manifester class the caster level and manifester suffer.... which makes it easier for peoples SR/PR to resist the spells and powers, this gives a way to compensate for this. Again need to double sheck on this.
Ok this sounds nice to have even for epic spells.
Yep path of least resistance is nasty..... in Athas there are alot more creatures with PR than SR.... and now even if they have one they can still be hit by the other.
Epic Spells/Powers don't use power points ... So perhaps if that should have an effect for epic spells too, it might be nice if it is explicitely stated that it does.
remember epic level spells are treated as 10th level spells, so if you have psionic raze all creatures/victims in the defiler radius lose 10 power points, and the dragon uses 5 to cast the spell. Nice for weakening their psionic opponents in addition to the spell hitting them.
Ok nice. With that you could just cast e.g. Dragon Metamrophosis I on others without having to research the epic spell anew.
yep.... acts as a way to add range to the touch spells nicely.... to drop the DC on them for Dragons.
What I would like to point out is: Those powers may be nice for normal spells, but for epic spells it might be nicer to have specific class features that exclusively target epic spells and epic spellcasting.
As for Ideas for some powers I would like to point out to the Elven High Mage or the Netherese Arcanist Epic PrCs (both for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting).
We still have some other psionic enchantments we are working on, and we are trying to place most of the epic bonuses to spells as possible under that heading as it is one of the defining features of being a advanced being
The psionic enchantments are by default not applicable to epic spells/powers as they are written. However, we could introduce specific psionic enchantments that affect epic spells or leave that to epic feats.
That would be nice! Especially when it was pointed out that they should/might be used in epic spellcasting too by seker.
No, we can't make epic spells and powes available only to advanced beings. That would unbalance epic psions and epic wizards compared to their standard D&D counterparts.
Ok *sigh*
Even though that was done so in the old official TSR rules for DarkSun?
Even if that would really make advanced beings unique (as being the only epic spellcasters on Athas? Just like they were the only casters who had psionic enchantements available under the old rules)?
There are no gods on Athas and for most ppl the sorceror-kings are as gods for the setting. No one would say that it is unbalancing that only deities have access to Divine Feats, so why would it be unbalancing to make Epic Spellcasting on Athas only available for advanced beings?
Well but I guess your mind is already set so nothing I write might change that anyway. So let us at least hope that we will get nice Epic Feats only usable for advanced beings.
We still have some other psionic enchantments we are working on, and we are trying to place most of the epic bonuses to spells as possible under that heading as it is one of the defining features of being a advanced being
*jumps happily around you* Thankx! I am already looking forward to see them!