Farcluun: obviously weaker than Abalache-Re, despite being said to be a level 22 dragon, I would give him more stages of the transformation, but few (if any) of the prestige class and overall fewer levels period than the Vizier of Raam. I would say he is very much more a defiler than a psion (I always wondered why he didn't simply link his eyesight with the flunkies he had lead him around Yaramuke when there was a similar psionic power in 2e, or just use one of those mixed senses powers like "hear sight" or whatever).
Graytch: to those few who know who he is, I would say something similar to Farcluun only more advanced along the transformation. Even better if he can have zero levels in the PrC and zero manifesting abilities and is a straight spellcaster (see my comments in the dragon release thread).
Kalak: I, along with I think Pennarin, believe that Kalak was never a champion and never a dragon until he tried and was killed in the Verdant Passage. City-State of Tyr has him as a level 25 defiler and level 25 psionicist, but makes no mention of him being a dragon. Therefore, he was a level 50 character who had set up a massive spell to make all 10 transformations all at once, at the end of which he would still be a level 50 character, only now a dragon. At the end of which he could begin taking levels in the PrC if he so desired. The train of thought is that while Kalak was never a dragon he was such a strong spellcaster and manifester that he still had the respect of the other SMs (more or less) who considered him to be in their club of people with cities to rule (remember in the original boxed set it references his massive power as a defiler and cites his abilities as being very high).
Hamanu: I would say that, in addition to whatever else he winds up being due to his special nature, that Hamanu has a focus in psionic ability and not magic. Therefore that his dragon levels increase his manifesting power instead of his spellcasting power and he has a focus in psionic and martial classes rather than spellcasting classes.
Daskinor: Again I would say that when at all possible that Daskior's build increases his psionic abilities, leaving his dragon and spellcasting abilities behind if need be, to fit in with the flavor of Eldaarich being a psionic police state rivalling Saragar where the paranoid king rules even the thoughts of his subjects.
There's more, but that's what really springs to mind imediately.
nic
Farcluun: obviously weaker than Abalache-Re, despite being said to be a level 22 dragon, I would give him more stages of the transformation, but few (if any) of the prestige class and overall fewer levels period than the Vizier of Raam. I would say he is very much more a defiler than a psion (I always wondered why he didn't simply link his eyesight with the flunkies he had lead him around Yaramuke when there was a similar psionic power in 2e, or just use one of those mixed senses powers like "hear sight" or whatever).
Farcluun should be pretty easy to create..... physically. Per the description of his appearance he would have had to have cast up to either the Dragon Metamorphosis III or Dragon Metamorphosis IV spell. Just from his appearance in the modules... From his 2ed stats I would estimate he would have been a wizard 7/psion 3 (seer or telepath most likely)/cerebremancer 11/dragon 1. This would fit why he was beaten so quickly by the Sorceress Queen, but was still able to escape. Would also fit why he was searching ancient city states for more power too..... he was advancing the metamorphosis without advancing the dragon class
This would give him the equivelent of 18th level arcane casting and 14th level manifesting... a dangerous combination. Add in dragon magic, energy storing, and duplex I and you have a pretty nasty NPC.
Although these are just some quick stats off the top of my head from memory on him.... I would need to reread the old module to work up more accurate ones. (I will take a look over the next day or so and work something up, just to give an idea)
Graytch: to those few who know who he is, I would say something similar to Farcluun only more advanced along the transformation. Even better if he can have zero levels in the PrC and zero manifesting abilities and is a straight spellcaster (see my comments in the dragon release thread).
Need to look him up real quick again, but yeah it is easy to have a straight epic defiler cast the metamorphosis spells, without any manifester levels.... they just cannot take the prestige class and get the psionic enchantments or dragon magic.
Kalak: I, along with I think Pennarin, believe that Kalak was never a champion and never a dragon until he tried and was killed in the Verdant Passage. City-State of Tyr has him as a level 25 defiler and level 25 psionicist, but makes no mention of him being a dragon. Therefore, he was a level 50 character who had set up a massive spell to make all 10 transformations all at once, at the end of which he would still be a level 50 character, only now a dragon. At the end of which he could begin taking levels in the PrC if he so desired. The train of thought is that while Kalak was never a dragon he was such a strong spellcaster and manifester that he still had the respect of the other SMs (more or less) who considered him to be in their club of people with cities to rule (remember in the original boxed set it references his massive power as a defiler and cites his abilities as being very high).
I disagree on one thing on this, Kalak was a dragon..... as he was able to use the obsidian orbs (specifically the Orb of Energy Storing), psionic enchantments, and dragon magic already per the novels. And those are only available to people with the dragon prestige class at least at level one. (note the lesser dragon magic can be used by certain prestige classes, but not the energy storing.)
This does not mean anything else on his abilities just that he would likely have been at least a 1st level dragon and have cast the first stage spell.
Hamanu: I would say that, in addition to whatever else he winds up being due to his special nature, that Hamanu has a focus in psionic ability and not magic. Therefore that his dragon levels increase his manifesting power instead of his spellcasting power and he has a focus in psionic and martial classes rather than spellcasting classes.
Hamanu is a interesting case. We have not discussed the final way he will be handled on the special nature. And I agree he would focus on the psionic abilities. That was one of the main reasons we have it that you get to choose whether to gain arcane spellcasting or psionic manifesting at most levels. (I personally like part of the rise and the fall of a dragon king.... specifically the idea that Hamanu was "granted" his powers and that his transformation is more natural. Something along the line of him being a warrior that was changed into a dragon type with Dragon racial levels added on..... and the dragon racial levels giving him his psionics and magical ability. So he has no actual levels of wizard/psion..... but more like a fighter 4+/Dragon racial 17/dragon prestige class? the dragon racial HD of 17 if granting arcane casting as a wizard of equal level and manifesting of psion of equal level, would answer all the issues, and is just a thought, nothing official on it.)
Daskinor: Again I would say that when at all possible that Daskior's build increases his psionic abilities, leaving his dragon and spellcasting abilities behind if need be, to fit in with the flavor of Eldaarich being a psionic police state rivalling Saragar where the paranoid king rules even the thoughts of his subjects.
Yep that is exactly why we have the dragon prestige class able to choose to focus on magic or psionics..... nibay would have almost all his bonuses in magic.... but daskinor would be all in psionics.
...Or just do what Seker says.
Hamanu: I would say that, in addition to whatever else he winds up being due to his special nature, that Hamanu has a focus in psionic ability and not magic. Therefore that his dragon levels increase his manifesting power instead of his spellcasting power and he has a focus in psionic and martial classes rather than spellcasting classes.
Actually, I have considered having him be a Psychic Warrior/Sorcerer mix. The magic he has wasn't so much taught to him, as infused in him (thus, the Sorcerer - and arguably the only one of the Champions like this), and I think he has far more Martial prowess than your typical Champion (along with Borys) - and that there had to be some reason for Rajaat to give special weapons to only 3 of his Champions (or 2, depending on your point of view). Borys got the Scourge, and Hamanu got the Scorcher. I think those weapons were given to them, because they were more martial - physical in their ability, hence the Psychic Warrior, rather than Psion. Of course, I usually have Hamanu be operating a bit differently than other Champions, because he really is the "new model" of sorts, that Rajaat developed.
Daskinor: Again I would say that when at all possible that Daskior's build increases his psionic abilities, leaving his dragon and spellcasting abilities behind if need be, to fit in with the flavor of Eldaarich being a psionic police state rivalling Saragar where the paranoid king rules even the thoughts of his subjects.
I tend to think that Daskinor was the single Wilder of the Champions. And the wild, chaotic nature of a Wilder, when infused with the power of Dragonhood, effectively snapped his mind and made him insane. Wilder fits perfectly with Daskinor. He'd also be a Wizard.
I've done write-ups in the past for each of the Champions, usually I'll neglect the non-Champion dragon NPC's, because Inever really got a feel for them.
I tend to think that Daskinor was the single Wilder of the Champions. And the wild, chaotic nature of a Wilder, when infused with the power of Dragonhood, effectively snapped his mind and made him insane. Wilder fits perfectly with Daskinor. He'd also be a Wizard.
This is a very interesting view. I like it a lot.
Who is Graytch? and which book/novel is he from?
From Secrets of the Deadlands.
From Secrets of the Deadlands.
Okay thought id misplaced a Dragon somewhere.
I'd like to see that - but you have a real glut of things coming / recently been released so i can definitely wait.
Also wondering if you could give a general idea of the levels of the SK's.
I want to make a Dragon up to get a handle on how they work and was looking for a general power level for me to compare. Say within 10 levels (so something like "some of them are about 50th level")
This is a very interesting view. I like it a lot.
Thanks.
Glad to know some of my ideas aren't *too* out there and far-fetched :P.Kurn: Oronis (Avangion 24th level)
Eldaarich: Daskinor (Dragon 22nd level)
Urik: Hamanu (Dragon 21st level/23rd level)
Yaramuke: Sielba (Dragon dead)
Raam: Abalach Re (Dragon 21st level/dead)
Draj: Tectuktitlay (Dragon 22nd level/dead)
Giustenal: Dregoth (Undead Dragon 29th level)
Nibenay: Nibenay (Dragon 23rd level/24th level)
Tyr: Kalak *(Dragon 21st level/25th level/dead)
Gulg: Lalalai Puy (Dragon 21st level/23rd level)
Balic: Andropinis (Dragon 21st level/trapped in Black)
Kalidnay: **Kalid-Ma (Dragon ? level/trapped in Ravenloft/went insane, put down by Borys, Hamanu, et al)
* Kalak is the controversial one on the list. A few people on this board argue if Kalak even was a dragon. I do not, figuring he was at least 21st level. Generally, the plot states that Kalak died at the end of the Verdant Passage, but in typical Dark Sun fashion, there are stats for him (if you wish him to come back) as a 25th level dragon in City State of Tyr.
** There are two stories for Kalid Ma, both of which have him engaging in the spell that Kalak would eventually try to use. One is Athas-centric, where he simply kills his city-state, goes insane, and has to be killed off by the other SKs. The second version has his high templar try to put the spell through for him and then sucks the entire city-state into Ravenloft. Comes down to a matter of tastes. If you don't like anything invading "your" Athas, you should probably go with option 1.
And there you have it. Think that's about everyone.
Second. City-State of Tyr has rules for Kalak, NOT as a level 25 dragon, but specifically as a level 25 defiler/level 25 psionicist. In the very complete write-up he is given, there is no mention of him being a dragon at all. In fact the only place where it mentions him as being a dragon rules-wise is Dragon Kings which states he was attempting to go through all the transformations at once. This is what fuels those of us who hold out that he was different and special and not simply yet another sorcerer-king.
Actually, I have considered having him be a Psychic Warrior/Sorcerer mix.
I would not consider him sorcerer in the core rule of athas.org because there is none. Unless that in your game he would be like that. If you decide to create their stat, IMO he should not be sorcerer.
Second. City-State of Tyr has rules for Kalak, NOT as a level 25 dragon, but specifically as a level 25 defiler/level 25 psionicist. In the very complete write-up he is given, there is no mention of him being a dragon at all. In fact the only place where it mentions him as being a dragon rules-wise is Dragon Kings which states he was attempting to go through all the transformations at once. This is what fuels those of us who hold out that he was different and special and not simply yet another sorcerer-king.
True, but the very paragraph of that book explicitly describes Kalak as "He lived during a time known as the Green Age, when all Tyr was lush and fertile. He fought in the war of wars, when segments of the human races sought genocide against the nonhuman races of Athas. The wars defiled the planet...waste it is today. It is known that he was one of the champions that Rajaat imbibed with power to carry out his will."
And, to be fair, the next paragraph states that he found an "ancient tome that described the process of transformation from human to dragon." So it comes down to this: were the champions dragons and that's what it meant to be a "Champion of Rajaat?" Or did Rajaat simply empower them with immortality and special abilities (elemental vortexes) and that's it?
Further, you have to remember that the rules in 2e Dark Sun did not allow for characters to go over 20th level without something grand happening. Fighters got gobs of followers; thieves got magical powers; clerics, if they chose to spin up to 20th level as a psionicist, became Elementals; Druids, doing the same thing, could become Spirits of the Land; Psions over 20th level had to join the Order or die. "Dual-Classing" (something only humans could do, which is why only humans could become dragons. Okay, okay, half-elves, too, for some reason, were unlimited in defiler and psionicist and could multiclass their way to dragonhood) in psionicist and "something else with spell-casting abilities" meant that the character either had to stop progressing or turn into a higher being. It's simply how TSR set it up.
You have to understand that City State of Tyr was written by Walter Baas, who did good stuff (Gladiator's Handbook, Terrors of the Desert, and (this is important) Black Spine), but was more concerned with mechanics than fluff. In essence, any Dark Sun character in the 2e system that was a 20+ psion and 20+ "something else" was always a higher being. Under the 3e system, you're right: but Dark Sun was not written in 3e and neither were its characters.
Frankly, it doesn't matter one lick because Kalak's dead. Like this horse we keep beating. :P
True, but the very paragraph of that book explicitly describes Kalak as "He lived during a time known as the Green Age, when all Tyr was lush and fertile. He fought in the war of wars, when segments of the human races sought genocide against the nonhuman races of Athas. The wars defiled the planet...waste it is today. It is known that he was one of the champions that Rajaat imbibed with power to carry out his will."
And, to be fair, the next paragraph states that he found an "ancient tome that described the process of transformation from human to dragon." So it comes down to this: were the champions dragons and that's what it meant to be a "Champion of Rajaat?" Or did Rajaat simply empower them with immortality and special abilities (elemental vortexes) and that's it?
Good catch, there Dawn - that highlights an interesting point
. The WC states that Rajaat turned fifteen of his students into Champions and then "imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs." He also hints that "through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods." It seems to me here that he make them Champions and hints at the possibility of transformation into advanced beings, but doesn't actually make them into dragons. That is left to Borys, who "taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon-kings." Using the Dark Lens to focus their magic and psionic powers, he begins their transformations (and it is the "resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosis spells were cast" that ties them to the elemental vortices). Following this, the SKs use the Dark Lens to complete Bory's transformation into a full dragon.
The line about Kalak finding the dragon transformation process in a old book makes for an interesting comparison with Hamanu's claims from RaFoaDK that Kalak was never a Champion. Another interpretation of this could be that Kalak was not involved when Borys transformed the SKs into dragons - he found his own route to dragonhood later (although he may well have been on of Rajaat's Champions all the same). It also makes for a nice link to the idea that he was tapping the elemental vortices of Sacha and Wyan, because if Kalak was absent from the "storm of energy" thing, he would never had become attached to a vortex of his own.
Beating the kank is quite a laugh sometimes ;).
I would not consider him sorcerer in the core rule of athas.org because there is none. Unless that in your game he would be like that. If you decide to create their stat, IMO he should not be sorcerer.
Never said that it would be core rules from Athas.org. Never implied that either. I merely stathow I had done him up before. Hamanu is a unique case, and personally, I feel that even if the Sorcerer is not a base class for Dark Sun, he should still be a Sorcerer, but that's just me.
Plus, in numerous other threads, I have mentioned that for my own campaigns, I do permit Sorcerers, and even provide an explanation as to their existence, despite the problems that Athasian Arcane magic have in that regard.
Never said that it would be core rules from Athas.org. Never implied that either. I merely stathow I had done him up before. Hamanu is a unique case, and personally, I feel that even if the Sorcerer is not a base class for Dark Sun, he should still be a Sorcerer, but that's just me.
Plus, in numerous other threads, I have mentioned that for my own campaigns, I do permit Sorcerers, and even provide an explanation as to their existence, despite the problems that Athasian Arcane magic have in that regard.
That's what I though, but oh well I have been and am still away somehow and a bit rusty