This is the conclusion I've reached: some combination between Mindscapes and the original 2e version is needed.
I loved the original, where two combatants engaged in combat and the first one to get three tangents on an opponent won free access to their opponent's mind. That just strikes me as the way it should be. Of course, we all know that, mechanically, the system was flawed which is why they tried to fix it (again and again and again...).
In Mindscapes, I like the idea of the way combat happens - two psionically active people in the same area creates a mindscape. I'd say, on Athas at least, that at least one would have to be actively concentrating on the target in order to create the mindscape.
My goal for today is to come up with knew ways of doing psionic combat, since I'm pretty much done with packing and have nothing better to do. :P
I had some initial musings on creating essentially a card game to represent Psionic combat, representing not just the various Powers and Attack/Defence modes, but also mindscape elements. Characters would get "boosters" when they got levels, or training from a School of the Way.
Basically I was hoping to reduce the Honking Big Table in The Will And The Way so that the rules and modifiers for each Attack/Defence mode would be on the cards, such that everything you need for a given attack against a given defence is right there...
Sounds like a plan!
I had some initial musings on creating essentially a card game to represent Psionic combat, representing not just the various Powers and Attack/Defence modes, but also mindscape elements. Characters would get "boosters" when they got levels, or training from a School of the Way.
Basically I was hoping to reduce the Honking Big Table in The Will And The Way so that the rules and modifiers for each Attack/Defence mode would be on the cards, such that everything you need for a given attack against a given defence is right there...
Dude...that would ROCK!!! If you could put something together like that for version 3.5, it would be all that - and a bag of chips.
Reminds me of some of the little teaser stories in the original boxed set. To maintain the mystique of psionics, mental combat should have a LOT of descriptive flair.
As promised:
Rules for Psionic Combat
This will be a series of rules for psionic combat combining rules from both the 2e version of the Psionic Handbook and Monte Cook’s Mindscapes. The major points were that 2e required a combatant to get three tangents on an opponent before anything could be done to their (the opponent’s) mind. Three tangents meant the psion had established “Contact.” Contact allowed the psion to proceed with all the telepathic powers he wanted (mindwipe, probe, etc). Psionic combat was only necessary when facing another psion equipped to reject the intruding psion: wild talents or psionic nulls were just screwed. I liked this, but of course there were issues with it. Monte Cook’s version is close to my ideal, but is a bit overly complicated and seems a bit obtuse. The goal of this system will be to make it user-friendly, but still include some functions of both 2e and Mindscapes.
A psion will not be able to perform any telepathic science on an unwilling psion (including soulknife, wilder, and psychic warrior) without first winning psionic combat. If the target is unconscious, their abilities are halved.
The following will go over what I hope to accomplish with this system:
1) Three tangents for Contact on a psionically active target.
2) An offensive/defensive system that allows both parties to get their shots in.
3) A semi random system that rewards both good strategy and more powerful characters.
4) A new set of psionic attacks and defenses.
5) A way for magicians to defend themselves against psionic attack and likewise psions to defend themselves against magical intrusion (ala Verdant Passage).
• Engaging in Psionic Combat
There are two possible ways that psionic combatants will meet: one will attack the other. The two will mutually engage in combat. The first will lead to surprise while the second will use an initiative roll. If a psionic character “ambushes” an opponent, they achieve surprise and their opponent is caught flat-footed, just like physical combat.
If the two are aware of each other, they engage in psionic combat just as they would normal combat with one important exception: they use their Intelligence Modifier as the initiative modifier. There will be a few feats later that can increase this, but that is the base.
So far, we have this: Psionic Combat Initiative = d20 + Int Modifier + relevant psionic feats.
• Psionic “Armor Class” and “Attack Bonus”
Even an unaware psion is not defenseless. Training in the Way leads psions to always be on their guard, even when caught by surprise. A psion’s Psionic Armor Class (PAC) is Manifester Level + their Wisdom Modifier + d20. When caught flat-footed, this is the only defense a psion has. If they are prepared, then they add the bonus of their defensive psionic power.
Offensively, a psion’s Psionic Attack Bonus (PAB) is their Manifester Level + Defense Mode Modifier + d20. A psion cannot engage in psionic attacks without a Psionic Attack Power (described below in the “Powers” section).
Here, we’ve added the PAC and PAB.
PAC = d20 + Manifester Level + Wisdom Modifier.
PAB = d20 + Manifester Level + Defense Mode Modifier.
• Psionic Attacks and Defenses
Like the 2e and 3e versions of psionic combat, there are a set of offensive powers and a set of defensive powers. Some offensive powers are going to be better against some defenses and likewise, some defenses will be better against certain attacks.
Defensive powers add their bonus directly to the psion’s PAC, whereas the Offensive power adds its attack bonus to the psion’s PAB.
The number of attacks and defenses have been raised to ten each. The table below describes the offensive bonus each power gets against specific defenses. Defensive adjustments are described under each power in a later section.
(the below link will take you to an image of the table)
Psionic attacks cost Power Points to activate; defenses do not, but do require that the psion have a minimum n number of Power Points left. If a psion runs out of Power Points, they will no longer be able to attack or defend. In essence, they have no defense against telepathic powers.
In the matrix above, each attack is better at attacking certain defenses. Particularly powerful defenses are practically unassailable by lower power attacks. Likewise, there is little that a lesser defense can do against a very powerful attack.
• Psionic Combat Powers
The following section is devoted to the psionic powers described in the table above. As mentioned, Psionic Attack Modes actually require power points while defenses only require that the user have a certain minimum number left. Attack modes are only useful in psionic combat, so do nothing to an unguarded or non-psionic mind.
Attack Modes
Mind Dart
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 1 [combat mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic Combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 1
One of the weakest attack modes, mind dart creates a very simple avatar that quickly hits a target before they can react.
Augment: None.
Id Stab
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 1 [combat mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 1
Id stab is a sneaky power that moves in a backdoor of the target’s psyche, using resident memories to hide itself in an assault.
Augment: None.
Mental Thrust
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 3 [combat mode]
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5
There is nothing subtle about mind thrust: a mental image is created that engages in a frontal assault of the target.
Augment: None.
Ego Slap
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 3 [combat mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5
This attack takes the target’s perception of themselves and uses it against them, gaining entrance to their mind.
Augment: None.
Psychic Blast
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 5 [combat mode]
Display: Auditory, visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 9
A very aggressive attack, psychic blast attempts to sweep away any defense in its way. This psychically “loud” attack can sometimes be seen by those who aren’t the target, especially when used by an especially powerful psion.
Augment: for every 2 additional power points spent, an extra target can be added, up to a maximum of the psion’s level/2.
Psyche Crush
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 5 [combat mode]
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 9
Psyche Crush draws on the target’s deep-seated beliefs and their world view to create a devastating attack.
Augment: for every 4 additional power points spent, the Attack Bonus can be raised by +2, to a maximum of +10.
Thought Whip
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 7 [combat mode]
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 13
Thought whip unleashes a crack of psychic energy at the target, overwhelming the target with a precise, devastating attack.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, the psion can increase the Attack Bonus by +2 to a maximum of +12.
Intellect Bash
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 7 [combat mode]
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft., line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 13
Intellect bash uses the target’s own intelligence against them, creating logic traps and mental barriers that confuse and confound.
Augment: for each additional 2 power points spent, an extra target can be added.
Mind Siege
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 9 [combat mode]
Display: Auditory, Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Variable (see below)
Area: Radius of your level surrounding you.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat, Will Negates
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 17
Typically a last-ditch attack by very powerful psions being assaulted by several weaker opponents, mind siege attacks all targets designated by you within the area of attack.
Mind Siege is so powerful that it even affects those who are not psionically active or engaged in psychic combat. For these targets, they must make a Will save (DC manifester’s level), or be stunned for 2d6 rounds.
Augment: for each additional 2 power points spent, the radius can be increased by one foot.
Psychic Scream
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 9 [combat mode]
Display: Visual, Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60ft.
Target: cone emanating from you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat, Will Negates
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 17
Psychic scream starts subtly but rapidly becomes a vicious assault against all caught in its path. Psychic scream, like Mind Siege (above), ignore the rule of combat modes not effecting non-psions or those out of psionic combat.
For those not blessed with an ability to defend themselves (ie. non-psions), psychic scream causes a drain of 1d6 Intelligence points if the Will save (manifester’s level) is failed. The Intelligence returns at one point a minute.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points, the range can be extended by 5 feet.
Brain Shatter
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 10 [combat mode]
Display: Auditory, Visual.
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: line of sight.
Target: One living intelligent creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Psionic combat
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 19
A massively powerful and brutal attack, Brain shatter is the attack of choice of the sorcerer kings and the Order. It is rarely used except in the most dire of circumstances as it is very likely to kill the target. Brain shatter is also powerful enough to kill those around the target unless the manifester is very careful.
Those failing in combat against this power must make an immediate Will save (DC manifester’s level) or be killed. Those in adjacent squares to the target must also make the save, although they only must face a DC of half the manifester’s level. Psions who survive the attack, but fail the contest are automatically considered to have an “open mind.”
Augment: None.
Defense Modes
As mentioned earlier, defense modes do not expend power points, but do require that the manifester have a reserve of power points. A psion with no power points left cannot defend themselves and are considered an “open mind.”
Empty Mind
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 1 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 1
With this power, the psion attempts to hide behind an empty façade, giving the attacker nothing to latch onto and nothing to attack.
Augment: None.
Thought Screen
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 1 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 1
A shield is quickly thrown up to protect the psion’s mind from intruders. Of course, being hasty, there are always chinks in the armor.
Augment: None.
Brain Shield
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 3 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 5
This power sets up a powerful defense against a specific threat.
Augment: None.
Psyche Guard
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 3 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 5
A very tough defense, psyche guard aggressively engages invaders and holds them off, protecting the delicate thoughts behind it.
Augment: None.
Intellect Screen
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 5 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal, see below
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 9
A mental shield is erected across a broad front, preventing attacks from getting through.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, an additional person can be shielded. These additional people must be in adjacent squares to you.
Mind Tower
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 5 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 9
You lock your psyche away in a tower of thought, safe from the attacks below.
Augment: for each additional 2 power points spent, you can decrease your opponents PAB by 1.
Belief Shelter
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 7 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Area: radius (manifester level/2) feet.
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 13
The psion creates an enclosed barrier that shields all of their thoughts and fears from attack. What’s more, the psion can also protect those that are nearby with no extra expenditure of energy.
Anyone within the radius benefits from this power, which also protects against all mind-effecting spells and powers.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, the radius can be increased by 1 foot.
Thought Fortress
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 7 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Area: personal.
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 13
Your mind is locked away behind the façade of a massive fortress fully capable of turning back all attacks.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, you can subtract 2 from the attacker’s PAB.
Psyche Citadel
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 9 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Area: radius (manifester level/2) feet.
Target: You, see below
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 17
A powerful defense against any attack, the Citadel can also protect those around you, creating a barrier that’s practically invulnerable to psychic assault.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, the radius can be increased by 3 feet.
Brain Stronghold
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 9 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Area: personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 17
In essence, you shut down everything in order to prevent a powerful attack from succeeding. One of the most powerful defenses available, brain stronghold is the ultimate evolution of blank mind.
Augment: for every additional 2 power points spent, you can lower your opponent’s PAB by 3.
Unassailable Bastion of Thought
Telepathy
Level: Telepath 10 [defense mode]
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 free action
Area: radius (manifester level) feet.
Target: 60ft., line of sight.
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Point Reserve: 19
The ultimate defense is used only by the sorcerer kings and members of the Order. This power enables the psion to protect their own mind or that of a subject that is within their sight and within 60ft.
Augment: for every additional 10 power points spent, this power can include one additional target.
• Psionic Combat
This section will go over the mechanics of psionic combat and will give an example of it. The goal will be to make psionic combat as intuitive as possible and avoid the pitfalls of previous versions. The recommended method is to write the powers that the psion has obtained on 3x5 cards. At the start of the round, select which attack or defense you are going to use and place it face-down on the table.
The following goes over the standard Psionic Combat Round:
1) Roll initiative. For psionic combat, remember that you use your Intelligence modifier instead of Dexterity. D20+Intelligence Modifier.
2) The winner selects an Attack Mode and places it face-down on the table (or writes it somewhere). The defender selects a Defense Mode and places it face-down on the table. Both roll a d20 and turn their cards over. For the Attacker, they use the Power’s modifier vs the Defense Mode used + Manifester Level + d20. For the Defender, they use Manifester Level + their Wisdom Modifier + d20.
3) Consult the rolls. Whoever has the highest modified score “wins” that round. If the winner is the Defender, they have successfully fended off the Attacker and no ground is gained. If the Attacker wins, they have achieved a “Tangent.”
4) At this point, it is now the Defender’s turn and they become the Attacker. After the first attack, there is no need for secrecy: the Attacker declares their attack mode and the Defender declares their defense mode (in that order). This indicates that battle is joined and the two combatants are studying each other’s tactics; the defender has the advantage.
5) Once an attacker has succeeded in landing three Tangents, the combat is over and the Attacker has won – their opponent is considered an Open Mind for any telepathic powers the Attacker wishes to use.
If a combatant runs out of power points, then they are considered defenseless and are an Open Mind.
Here’s an example:
Drethel and Glarm are both psions of respectable levels. They spot each other and, because this is an example, instant go at it. Drethel is a 10th level psion (Str – 10, Dex – 10, Con – 10, Int – 14, Wis – 13, Cha – 15) while Glarm is a 14th level psion (Str – 9, Dex – 9, Con – 10, Int – 15, Wis – 15, Cha -12).
Round One: Since neither combatant was surprised, they roll initiative as normal. Drethel rolls and gets a 10 for a total of 12 (10 + Intelligence modifier of 2). Glarm gets a 13 for a total of 15 (13 + Intelligence modifier of 2). Glarm lucks out and can attack first. At 15, Glarm pulls out his most powerful Attack Mode (Intellect Bash) and places it facedown on the table. Now Drethel isn’t stupid, and figures that Glarm is going to come with the big guns right away. Drethel pulls out her Mind Tower card and places it face-down on the table. They both roll d20s and flip their cards upright.
Glarm rolls a 12 while Drethel rolls a lucky 16. Consulting the table, Glarm sees that Intellect Bash gets a +4 against Mind Tower, +14 for his level, and an additional +12 from his die roll, for a total of 34. Drethel has her roll of 16 plus her Wisdom modifier of +1, plus the 10 for her level, for a total of 27. Glarm gets his first tangent.
At 12, Drethel gets to strike back. Being less powerful than Glarm, she decides to go for a powerful attack as well, and declares that she will be using Psyche Crush. Glancing at the table, Glarm does the math and decides to go with Mind Tower. Drethel decides to augment her attack and spends a valuable 8 points to upgrade her attack. They both roll d20s.
Drethel rolls a 17 and Glarm rolls an 8. Consulting the table, Drethel sees that her modification is a base 0, but since she augmented her power, she gains a +4 advantage. Drethel’s total is 31 (17 for the d20 roll, +4 for the augmented Attack Mode vs Mind Tower, +10 for her level). Glarm’s total is 24 (roll of 8 + Wisdom Modifier of 2 + level of 14). Drethel wins! She scores a tangent. The cost comes at a lot of power points, though: had she not augmented her power, she would not have scored a tangent.
Round Two: At 15, Glarm goes, feeling Drethel’s icy mental fingers caressing his thoughts. No more games, this time, Glarm decides to blow some power points and lay waste to Drethel’s defenses. With over twice the available power points as his opponent, Glarm decides to use Thought Whip and then augment it with 8 power points. Drethel winces at this announcement, knowing she doesn’t have a good answer for that. Consulting the table, she decides that Mind Tower is again her best bet. She declares her intention and they both roll d20s.
Glarm rolls a 10 while Drethel gets a 9. Modified, Glarm has a 34 (10 + Level 14 + 10 for the Attack mode vs Drethel’s defense mode) and Drethel has a 21 (9 + Wisdom 2 + level of 10). Glarm wins and scores his second tangent.
At 12, Drethel fights back, but realizes she’s down to 71 power points (88 for her level – 9 for Psyche Crush – 8 for augmenting it) and must be frugal if she’s going to survive this encounter. She decides to go with Psyche Crush again, but not augment it. Taking no chances, Glarm decides on his most powerful defense and states that he plans to use Belief Shelter. They both roll d20s.
Glarm rolls a 14 and Drethel rolls a 12. Glarm ends up with a 30. Drethel has an 8 because of the efficiency of Glarm’s defense. She’s now down to 62 points after using her attack. Not good for her.
Round Three: At 15, it’s Glarm’s turn again and he declares that he’s going to use Psyche Crush, no doubt eyeing his own power points. Responding, Drethel uses her Mind Tower once again, hoping that the rolls will be on her side. Glarm decides that, given the fact that there’s no bonus, he’d better augment his attack, so goes with a 40 point upgrade, giving him a +10. They both roll d20s. Glarm gets a 6, Drethel gets a 5. the gambit pays off with Glarm getting a 30 and Drethel getting a 17.
Having his third tangent, Glarm has gained Contact and can now freely do whatever he wants to Drethel’s now-open mind.
Moral of the story? Don’t fight outside your level if you can avoid it. Had the two been in two groups, the fight might have been a bit different as both would have been using area-effect attacks and defenses, but the end result likely wouldn’t have changed much: the Way is the path of power on Athas and masters of it are not to be trifled with.
• Gaining Attacks and Defenses.
Now that all is understood, it comes down to characters. Psions obviously get the most attacks and defenses, but Wilders and Psychic Warriors get them as well. Any non-psion that has the ability to manifest powers will use the lower of the two lists.
Psions gain a combat modes at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 20 level.
Psychic warriors, Wilders, and others gain combat modes at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.
I still think something that mimics monster summoning is most appropriate. To me, it's not much more of a learning curve than Druids and their animal campanion, or Paladins and their mount. Everyone learns the basics of battlemap tactics and the psionic combats described in the novels always felt like a tactical engagement in pace and characterization. But I'm a stickler to the feel of the novels.
I think I might turn my attention back to developing a simple system on that idea...
[Edit] I didn't mean to post off topic from your proposal. I just got mentally side-tracked. You're proposal certainly is interesting. Seems like a ton of options, there are times when too many options is overwhelming to me. I'll have to read it much further.
Have you thought of implementing some of the flavor of the old Will and the Way Harbingers and Constructs system?[/edit]
Which Malhavoc Mindscape rules? Bruce Cordell's rules in Mindscapes? Or his updated version in Hyperconscious?
Way back when 3e had just come out, I had worked on a psi-combat system that mimiced the psionic combat that as it was described in the Prism Pentad. The basic idea that started it was that psionic combat was effectively "monster summoning" with dueling "summoned monsters" fighting it out in a coterminous/coexistent mindscape.
Now THAT would be cool. Just have a separate set of statistics for your "mind" - based on level and class - and when psionic combat ensues, rumble as usual.
Your battle mat becomes your "Mindscape".
:lightbulb
P.S.: Your system looks really good, Dawnstealer, but I don't think I could use it. I'm the poster child for ADHD, and I find even the sheer volume of the existing arcane/divine spells and psionic powers to be just daunting. Adding a new list of powers would overload my already struggling synapses.
:D Way back when 3e had just come out, I had worked on a psi-combat system that mimiced the psionic combat that as it was described in the Prism Pentad. The basic idea that started it was that psionic combat was effectively "monster summoning" with dueling "summoned monsters" fighting it out in a coterminous/coexistent mindscape. After lengthy discussion and feedback on the early Athas.org private lists the Harbinger system is what came out of it. Brax was particularly taken with the idea and ran with it the most. I'm not sure where it ever ended up.
I like this, but are implying it take place separate from the normal combat? Or during normal combat? What I mean is, are the non-psionic players just sitting around twiddling their thumbs while this is taking place? Or does this occur round for round as normal combat is occuring?
Also, what would be the rewards/and or penalty's of doing this? How would it work on non-psions?
I like this, but are implying it take place separate from the normal combat? Or during normal combat? What I mean is, are the non-psionic players just sitting around twiddling their thumbs while this is taking place? Or does this occur round for round as normal combat is occuring?
My idea was that it would take place at the same time as normal combat. The mindscape attacker should go on the same initiative as the psion who created it.
Also, what would be the rewards/and or penalty's of doing this? How would it work on non-psions?
Obviously, much of it would be worked out, and that is where the details are something that every has their own preferences. But my thought was that it would stick to the ideas in the PP, that non-psionic characters had innate defenses, just as in the 2e rules. Non-psionically aware people are just not worth the effort for psionically talented people to attack via mindscape unless seriously pressed. Innate defense can translate into so many possibilities, like DR, extra "AC"... knows.
So many details to hammer out, you know. I hadn't put much thought into it lately... I just might try to polish it off again...
It's just so easy to try to do a psionic combat system and then it gets unwieldy before you get done with it and stand back. Make it too different and some won't want to do it just because it is too different.
In the D&D 3.5 rules set, the Wild Talent feat gives you a power point reserve of 2 points.
In the Dark Sun 3.5 rules, it gives you access to two 0-level powers that you can use once per day.
My question is: will there be another feat added that gives a power point reserve? I'm wondering because a few of the Dark Sun prestige classes (Soulknife, Psionic Monk) require a power point reserve. While taking a level or two in a psionic class is easy enough to do, what about the player that wants access to these classes without actually taking levels in a psionic class? Is this even possible?
Just curious.
Obviously, much of it would be worked out, and that is where the details are something that every has their own preferences. But my thought was that it would stick to the ideas in the PP, that non-psionic characters had innate defenses, just as in the 2e rules. Non-psionically aware people are just not worth the effort for psionically talented people to attack via mindscape unless seriously pressed. Innate defense can translate into so many possibilities, like DR, extra "AC"... knows.
Having not work well against non-psions doesn't really make sense. Plus, it makes psionic combat useless if there are no psychic opponents. What I propose is this. Take the harbinger out of the mindscape. Make it tangible, like an astral construct. Difference might be that the psion has to concentrate to maintain it. Can be harmed by normal weapons as well. This makes the psion less isolated from the rest of the party. Less specialized. Maybe allow it to deliver melee touch attacks in behalf of its psion as well.
It's just so easy to try to do a psionic combat system and then it gets unwieldy before you get done with it and stand back. Make it too different and some won't want to do it just because it is too different.
I know what you mean. Psionic combat seems cool, but whenever someone tries to implement it, it becomes cumbersome. I've taken a stab at it a couple of times, but usually come up empty. What it tries to do is replace Will saves. Saves are a fundamental part of D20, so psionic combat feels tacked on. A fifth wheel.
Oh and there is the risk of it turning into Pokemon.
My Pikachu uses lightning on your Charmander.
Have you thought of implementing some of the flavor of the old Will and the Way Harbingers and Constructs system?
Absolutely. What I was trying to do was create a "bare bones" system. I recently reread the Verdant Passage and got several ideas from the few psionic combats that took place there. One of the reasons for the augmentations was mostly due to Kalak's attacks (massive dragon that almost killed Tithian and he was just a bystander, huge battlerams that hit Agis' sand dunes, etc). You'll also notice that I built the later powers on two theories: Group and Individual. A "Group" combat mode could be augmented to attack or defend more than one person, while the "Individual" modes could be scaled up to make them more potent (or make attacking them harder).
I feel, and have always felt, that describing the events that take place is between the GM and the player. If the player wants to describe his "Mental Thrust" as a "Massive mekillot roaring with fury" that's perfect, but I won't force it on them. Some players simply like the mechanics of a game and that's enough for them. I won't enforce something more complex.
As for monster summoning, it's definitely an interesting idea, but (back to the books) over the course of the combat, the avatars would change constantly as one attack or defense was used and then discarded (hence the reason why, after the first exchange, the combatants must declare their attack modes).
Obviously, much of it would be worked out, and that is where the details are something that every has their own preferences. But my thought was that it would stick to the ideas in the PP, that non-psionic characters had innate defenses, just as in the 2e rules. Non-psionically aware people are just not worth the effort for psionically talented people to attack via mindscape unless seriously pressed. Innate defense can translate into so many possibilities, like DR, extra "AC"... knows.
The way I saw it was this: someone who is psionically active and knows how to defend themselves would require greater skill to overcome. In short, if a telepath were to use a power against a person with no talent in the Way, it would be a simple matter of manifesting the power - the target could do nothing to stop and might not even be aware of it. Turning to the Verdant Passage again, there's this exchange:
The high templar chuckled. "First, you must tell me what the Veiled Alliance wants with you."
Rikus ran a hand over his hairless scalp. "I didn't know that they wanted anything with me," the mul replied. An image of Sadira came unbidden to his mind. Was the sorceress tied to the Veiled Alliance somehow? "Those Who Wear the Veil are not the sort to fix the games," the mul added quickly.
Tithian looked to one of his subordinates, an emaciated young man with bulging brown eyes. "Is he telling the truth?"
The young man nodded. "He also knew she was a sorceress."
Realizing he had been tricked, Rikus shot...
You get the idea. What I gathered from this was that a non-psion simply does not have the resources to defend themself. It would be like an armless man in a swordfight.
Psions, on the other hand, have to be overcome. Thus, the only time you would ever use psionic combat modes is if you had to engage in psionic combat - why waste the power points when you don't need to?
P.S.: Your system looks really good, Dawnstealer, but I don't think I could use it. I'm the poster child for ADHD, and I find even the sheer volume of the existing arcane/divine spells and psionic powers to be just daunting. Adding a new list of powers would overload my already struggling synapses.
I'm the exact same way - my eyes roll back in my head after reading a few pages of the 3.5 books. Seriously, it took me several weeks just to plug through the DMG. While this one looks formidable, it's actually a very simple system: you roll an opposed d20 roll, add the bonuses, and whoever has the highest score wins. If you win with your attacks three times, you have access to the opposing psion's mind.
Having not work well against non-psions doesn't really make sense. Plus, it makes psionic combat useless if there are no psychic opponents.
Absolutely agree. If the target is a non-psion, they have no defense against telepathic powers other than the standard Will save.
What I propose is this. Take the harbinger out of the mindscape. Make it tangible, like an astral construct. Difference might be that the psion has to concentrate to maintain it. Can be harmed by normal weapons as well. This makes the psion less isolated from the rest of the party. Less specialized. Maybe allow it to deliver melee touch attacks in behalf of its psion as well.
Disagree with this part. The whole point is that it's all in their heads. One of the things I might not have made clear was that the psions are going at a regular initiative, the only difference is that they use Intelligence instead of Dexterity. Also, psionic combat itself is a complex action, so you basically have two mental gunslingers facing off while their parties battle around them. It's fully integrated, just like spellcasting, shooting arrows, healing folks, etc.
Let's say you have two groups of three people A1, A2, A3 and B1, B2, B3. A1 and B1 are both fighters, A2 and B2 are both sorcerers, A3 and B3 are both psions. They all roll init. A1, A2, B1, and B2 would all roll d20+Dexterity. A3 and B3 decide that they're going to duke it out mentally, at the very least tying up the other party's psion. They would roll d20+Intelligence. Then you'd just go down the list: whoever scored the highest would go first. Instead of saying "I hit him with my sword," the psion would say, "I strike at him with Psychic Blast." His opponent would then say, "I defend with Intellect Screen" they'd both roll, and whoever scored the highest would win that round.
I know what you mean. Psionic combat seems cool, but whenever someone tries to implement it, it becomes cumbersome. I've taken a stab at it a couple of times, but usually come up empty. What it tries to do is replace Will saves. Saves are a fundamental part of D20, so psionic combat feels tacked on. A fifth wheel.
I see it this way, too. The trick is to make it applicable only to psions - it's the way they fight with each other. Instead of using a +5 Bastard Sword, they're using a Psychic Crush. Instead of Platemail Armor, they're using Mind Tower. It's the exact same thing, it just takes a little bit to wrap your mind around it to thinking that way.
I realize my idea isn't perfect, but it does work.
In the D&D 3.5 rules set, the Wild Talent feat gives you a power point reserve of 2 points.
In the Dark Sun 3.5 rules, it gives you access to two 0-level powers that you can use once per day.
My question is: will there be another feat added that gives a power point reserve? I'm wondering because a few of the Dark Sun prestige classes (Soulknife, Psionic Monk) require a power point reserve. While taking a level or two in a psionic class is easy enough to do, what about the player that wants access to these classes without actually taking levels in a psionic class? Is this even possible?
We will be using the Wild Talent and Hidden Talent feats from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so you can take either feat to qualify for the above mentioned prestige classes.
Having not work well against non-psions doesn't really make sense. Plus, it makes psionic combat useless if there are no psychic opponents.
But that has been the case for all psionic combat in the past. Even Dawnstealer's system has it:
A psion will not be able to perform any telepathic science on an unwilling psion (including soulknife, wilder, and psychic warrior) without first winning psionic combat. If the target is unconscious, their abilities are halved.
Having a "closed mind" non-psion be vulnerable, i.e. no defenses or ability to fight back, means you have a sitting duck unable to respond effectively. Psionic combat always was useless when there were no open psionic minds around.
Disagree with this part. The whole point is that it's all in their heads. One of the things I might not have made clear was that the psions are going at a regular initiative, the only difference is that they use Intelligence instead of Dexterity. Also, psionic combat itself is a complex action, so you basically have two mental gunslingers facing off while their parties battle around them. It's fully integrated, just like spellcasting, shooting arrows, healing folks, etc.
I believe that it goes round for round with the combat. The problem is that it seems to make it over-powered against non-psions. Which, thematically, it should, but makes it very difficult to balance. Taking it out of the mindscape, and allowing the harbinger to interact with others allows it to easily affect non-psions, but at the same time gives the non-psion a chance to defend.
Let's say you have two groups of three people A1, A2, A3 and B1, B2, B3. A1 and B1 are both fighters, A2 and B2 are both sorcerers, A3 and B3 are both psions. They all roll init. A1, A2, B1, and B2 would all roll d20+Dexterity. A3 and B3 decide that they're going to duke it out mentally, at the very least tying up the other party's psion. They would roll d20+Intelligence. Then you'd just go down the list: whoever scored the highest would go first. Instead of saying "I hit him with my sword," the psion would say, "I strike at him with Psychic Blast." His opponent would then say, "I defend with Intellect Screen" they'd both roll, and whoever scored the highest would win that round.
How would Psychic Blast work? How about Intellect Fortress? Does it directly defend, or does it increase Will Saves? Can you explain in greater detail whats going on? What happnes mechanics-wise when a psion is hit by Psychic Blast? What about a non-psion?
I see it this way, too. The trick is to make it applicable only to psions - it's the way they fight with each other. Instead of using a +5 Bastard Sword, they're using a Psychic Crush. Instead of Platemail Armor, they're using Mind Tower. It's the exact same thing, it just takes a little bit to wrap your mind around it to thinking that way.
I realize my idea isn't perfect, but it does work.
No, I see what you're saying. I am just worried about having new to introduce new mechanics to accomadate it. The simpler we keep it, the easier it'll be accepted.
We will be using the Wild Talent and Hidden Talent feats from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so you can take either feat to qualify for the above mentioned prestige classes.
Sweet deal!
My character concept just became a whole lot more viable.
By the way, you guys do beautiful work over at Athas.org. Very impressive.
Okay, I'll clarify a few things here because, after all, I put all of this together in one day so I don't think it's perfect.
One day? Hmmmm...not bad.
I'm the exact same way - my eyes roll back in my head after reading a few pages of the 3.5 books. Seriously, it took me several weeks just to plug through the DMG. While this one looks formidable, it's actually a very simple system: you roll an opposed d20 roll, add the bonuses, and whoever has the highest score wins. If you win with your attacks three times, you have access to the opposing psion's mind.
I took a little time this morning to read over it again, and your system actually makes more sense now. Unless I miss my guess, the majority of the text is just there for flavor, while the mechanic itself is quite simple.
I realize my idea isn't perfect, but it does work.
Just like normal combat, with fewer modifiers. Very good. I just might use it.
Who knows, the Athas.org crew might add something like this to their final Dark Sun rules release...
We will be using the Wild Talent and Hidden Talent feats from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so you can take either feat to qualify for the above mentioned prestige classes.
Great minds think alike: this is the system I've been using with my group.
How would Psychic Blast work? How about Intellect Fortress? Does it directly defend, or does it increase Will Saves? Can you explain in greater detail whats going on? What happnes mechanics-wise when a psion is hit by Psychic Blast? What about a non-psion?
Great questions, and you're right: they need to be answered.
I guess the easiest way to put it is this: if a psion, using the current rules, were going to use Psionic Dominate (p.96, 3.5e psibook) on a character, they would get a Will save to negate it (DC10 + level of power 4 + Int modifier for a total of 14+). By expending 2 points, you can increase the DC. Against a powerful psion, a mundane is going to have no chance, especially if the psion chooses to throw the full strength of his will behind it.
Now let's say that the mundane has a psion in his group that throws up an Intellect Screen and pays the extra points to protect his group. Suddenly, that enemy psion can no longer simply dominate the mundane - he has to either defeat the rival psion, or get three tangents on the mundane. He would have to break through the rival psion's defenses first, almost as if a fighter were standing in front of a sorcerer to protect him, the psion is placing his mind in between the enemy psion and his companion.
I guess another way to put it is that the mechanics don't change at all for non-psions. If a friendly psion isn't there to toss up a defense for them, they have their Will save as normal. If they fail it, the manifested power works, just like now. If a friendly psion is there, they can lend their mental support and help protect the mundane.
How would Psychic Blast work? How about Intellect Fortress? Does it directly defend, or does it increase Will Saves? Can you explain in greater detail whats going on? What happnes mechanics-wise when a psion is hit by Psychic Blast? What about a non-psion?
I think I might have overexplained the defenses above, so I'll just go over the offensive power here. If the attack does not allow a Will save, it simply does not work against a non-psion. I'll put it this way: why waste an attack to get by defenses that aren't there and wouldn't do anything anyway? Using the example above, if the psion wanted to use Psionic Dominate on a non-psion target, why would he use Psychic Blast first to get past non-existant defenses? He wouldn't: he'd just use Psionic Dominate. Using a psionic attack on a non-psion is pointless since their only purpose is to defeat the mental defenses of another psion.
The one exception to this is the 9th level power I created called "Psychic Scream" (it was late). Even here, a mundane gets a Will save as normal.
This system is set up specifically for psionic combat between two psions. It also enables a psion to protect his own party from psionic attacks (telepathic powers like Dominate, Distract, Mental Disruption, etc), much like Agis did in The Verdant Passage when Kalak attacked them.
Having a "closed mind" non-psion be vulnerable, i.e. no defenses or ability to fight back, means you have a sitting duck unable to respond effectively. Psionic combat always was useless when there were no open psionic minds around.
I think I've answered this, but just in case: a non-psion is no more vulnerable under this system. If anything, they're more protected as a psion in their group can try to defend them. Instead of one Will save, the mundanes of the group can hide behind their psion and are relatively safe until his defenses are defeated. In essence, they have at least three rounds before a rival psion could conceivable force one of them to make a Will save (the time it would take for a rival to blast through the defenses, get three tangents, and thus end the psionic combat). [edit: provided, of course, that their psion is nice enough to use an area-effect defense]
Now let's say that the mundane has a psion in his group that throws up an Intellect Screen and pays the extra points to protect his group. Suddenly, that enemy psion can no longer simply dominate the mundane - he has to either defeat the rival psion, or get three tangents on the mundane. He would have to break through the rival psion's defenses first, almost as if a fighter were standing in front of a sorcerer to protect him, the psion is placing his mind in between the enemy psion and his companion.
I think I am warming up to this a little. You're saying psionic combat is a means to protect the party against psionic attacks? And I guess the enemy do the same? Can you use it to 'throw out' someone who's already affecting someone in the party? Would it work on magical mind-affecting spells? What happens when someone gets 3 tangents?
You're saying psionic combat is a means to protect the party against psionic attacks?
Provided the "good" (party) psion uses an area effect defense and augments it to protect other members of the party, yes: it can be used to protect a party from psionic attacks.
And I guess the enemy do the same?
Oh, yes.
Can you use it to 'throw out' someone who's already affecting someone in the party?
Yes, if someone in the party were currently under the influence, enabling an area defense around them would force the enemy psion out and force them into psionic combat.
Would it work on magical mind-affecting spells?
The way I've always played it, on Athas there was little difference between mind-affecting magic and mind-affecting psionics: the same defenses would work against both, and this was born out in the Verdant Passage when Agis and Ktandeo get into it in "Bidding War." Even so, I would leave this up to individual DMs and how far they want to push the "Psionics is Different" rule.
What happens when someone gets 3 tangents?
When a psion gets three tangents on either another psion or on a target protected by an area effect psionic defense, they will then be able to use their telepathic abilities as normal. So if a psion broke another psion's defenses, they would then be able to use any telepathic ability on that psion (or target protected by the psion), forcing a Will save as normal.
The only way a psion could use telepathic abilities on another psion would be to beat them in psionic combat. Once that's done, it's business as usual. Against a mundane (one not protected by another psion's area effect defense, that is), it's always business as usual: a Will save as normal.
•Gaining Attacks and Defenses.
Now that all is understood, it comes down to characters. Psions obviously get the most attacks and defenses, but Wilders and Psychic Warriors get them as well. Any non-psion that has the ability to manifest powers will use the lower of the two lists.
Psions gain a combat modes at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 20 level.
Psychic warriors, Wilders, and others gain combat modes at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.
Dawnstealer, I was looking over the power lists again for the Psion, Wilder, and Psychic Warrior, and something occurred to me. It seems that the psionic attack modes you've created are basically telepathic attacks, while the defense modes would be the result of both intense training, as well as innate willpower.
Now, the Psion and Wilder classes have access to both offensive and defensive powers that are telepathic in nature. On the other hand, the Psychic Warrior (as well as the other prestige classes that use the Psychic Warrior power list) has few, if any, powers that resemble telepathic attacks. The Psychic Warrior does, however, have access to a number of telepathic "defenses".
One thing I would suggest, is to give Psions and Wilders (and any class that uses the same power list) access to all of the attack and defense modes you've created.
However, if it were me, I would only give the Psychic Warrior (and those that use the same powers) access to the defense modes. This would reflect the fact that their focus is on psionic augmentation of their physical abilities, while their mental discipline and sheer force of will have given them a "closed mind" just as resistant to psionic attack as any other follower of the Way.
Thoughts?
A psionic character can choose any creature with a CR equal to or less than his manifester level (With the exception of dragons which must be manifester level -6 or lower) to function as a harbinger. The defending party chooses the terrain. Combat is handled like any other encounter, but a harbinger starts with hitpoints equal to the manifesters normal maximum PPs.
All normal combat actions may be taken (spells, fighting defensively, etc...).
Two psionic characters may choose to jointly shape the mental terrain if they so choose.
This has worked really well for us.
Note: In our campaigns you must have seen or researched an animal before summoning, shapeshifting, or using it for other psionic/magical purposes.
Though I haven't seen this mindscape thing that was mentioned.