I will start with my opinion and why I feel this way. (please feel free to comment on mine or post your own opinions.)
I see him as a first stage preserver dragon. (or at least a defiler dragon that only uses animal life for his spells.)
Class would be along the lines of Psion (telepath) 7/wizard 7/cerebremancer 10/dragon 2+ (most likely a few levels of druid thrown in but not really needed.) puts him a bit above most younger dragons but well below a SK in power. (though this is just a quick rough idea on it.)
Reasons I see him this way is as follows:
On the psion levels, in Verdant Passage he seemed to be a more powerful master of the way than Agis.
On the Wizard and the Dragon classes, he was able to make a wizard artifact/epic magic item (the cane.... even though he possibly had the help of the Last Tree on making it, how could a blue age/early green age Rhulisti halfing [the tree] make a item based off "dragon magic"?) Also on the orb he wore when he hunted down Sadira in Amber Enchantress I don't remember him having to use a command word to make it allow him to cast spells, like the cane did. This seems to indicate he was just drawing energy like a wizard does.... but he was doing so from animal life.
Add to this he seemed to know an awfull lot about the dragons and how they transformed, this is not common knowledge at all in Athas.
Now as to his death in the fight with Sadira, I attribute alot of it as Sadira breaking the cane and interrupting Nok's casting in what as equivilent to a retirbutive strike from a staff of the magi.
Oh on the idea that in 2ed that only humans could become dragons and avangions.... wasn't there also a memory of a halfling proto avangion or something in the kreen book if I remember right?
just a few thoughts
First, I can't see see Nok being a druid-like figure respected and supported by the forest's spirits of the land all the while being a dragon.
Second, his alledged dragonhood comes from...what? His great power, his use of obsidian, what? All of it comes from gaming elements that both defilers and preservers can have. An obsidian orb, before the Epic Bureau designed it, had the possibility of allowing anyone to gain the ability to drain animal life, like Sadira's own orb, since the item didn't exist yet. Since that is now out of the question, we have to reserve that ability to Nok's Cane and...Nok's Sphere, the obsidian ball around his neck. Both items would probably be epic magic items, very feasable, although taxing/costly to create*.
To use his sphere, Nok would need to be a wizard. The great thing is that he can be a preserver. The effects of the sphere do not have to be labelled dragon magic.
If Nok is a preserver, he can also be a druid.
As for the presence or abscence of a command word on Nok's Sphere, the entire item can be psionic (mental command) or, since its a universal/wondrous item, can use different rules than the command word activation.
Nok's death, like you said, is clearly demonstrated in the novel to be the result of Sadira striking Nok's Sphere with the Cane while the Sphere was drawing energy.
As for what Nok knows about dragons, being connected to the spirits of the land of a mighty forest like the Forest Ridge, and living close to a SK that has been dreaming of dragonhood for a millenia, can explain why Nok knows what he knows.
* For the build of the Heartwood Spear I have grazed a bit on how Nok created his most powerful artifacts: he invested character levels (similar to a level drain) into the item, allowing for it to be more powerful than what Nok could normally create (i.e. it replaces some CL and/or ML requirements). Nok, being a druid, asked the same sacrifice of a spirit of the land that had taken treant form, into the form of that giant oak tree from which Nok took out the Spear. After such a powerful artifact had been used to kill Kalak, it would have been reabsorbed into the tree, giving its borrowed levels back to their onwers.
The more I think about it the more I disagree w/ Nok having any levels in defiler at all. In my past campaigns Nok was an extremist to say the least but his acts and ideals were still devoted to the preservation and growth of the forest ridge.
Ktandeo knowingly accepted Nok's assistance in the assassination of Kalak. Ktandeo seemed to be a man of very strong principle, and in way no can I see him consorting w/ a defiler (not to mention one of such epic power). The risk of treachery, deceit, and his own moral conscience would see to that.
To me it has to be the artifacts which allow him to wield that power. How did he come about the knowledge of such magic? The same way he came to know and learn about dragons. Perhaps he was a descendant of the rebel Rhulisti whom are now imprisoned alongside Rajaat. Perhaps he served Rajaat himself at some point. It could be as simple as long years of research, consulting w/ the spirits of the forest, the last tree and such. I do not feel that Nok is of sufficient power to create such items w/o outside help. This would probably come in the form of a spirit of the land or the last tree.
On the note of how he died: The fireball was what eventually killed him. The idea of Ktandeo's cane acting as a retroactive strike (like that of a staff of magi) does make sense, however would this be enough to kill a Dragon? True the breaking of the Scourge of Rkard was the end of two separate champions. However, in comparison I think all will agree, that the Cane crafted by Nok did not hold water to the sword crafted by Rajaat. The Cane definitely seemed to be a lesser artifact.
All in all I just feel that he was too easily defeated, his persona does not match that of a defiler, and strong sense of forest and tribe preservation does not fit w/ what I picture a dragon to be.
Just my 2 bits.
My earliest build for Nok went wizard (preserver) 10/druid 17/psion 8; posesses Nok’s Orb (similar to Nok's Cane).
That may be too many levels, but stuff like the write-up for the artifact and maybe, like Sysane said, a unique spirit-given template, could help lower those numbers.
In any case, the Nok that Sadira faces and kills has maybe 10 to 15 levels less than the above numbers, all those levels having been transfered to the Heartwood Spear.
My thoughts on the matter are diametrically opposed.
First, I can't see see Nok being a druid-like figure respected and supported by the forest's spirits of the land all the while being a dragon.
Actually our thoughts are not so opposed..... I prefer to think of Nok as a preserver dragon. A preserver who has learned to channel animal life energy through obsidian just like defiler dragons do.
Second, his alledged dragonhood comes from...what? His great power, his use of obsidian, what? All of it comes from gaming elements that both defilers and preservers can have. An obsidian orb, before the Epic Bureau designed it, had the possibility of allowing anyone to gain the ability to drain animal life, like Sadira's own orb, since the item didn't exist yet. Since that is now out of the question, we have to reserve that ability to Nok's Cane and...Nok's Sphere, the obsidian ball around his neck. Both items would probably be epic magic items, very feasable, although taxing/costly to create*.
To use his sphere, Nok would need to be a wizard. The great thing is that he can be a preserver. The effects of the sphere do not have to be labelled dragon magic.
If Nok is a preserver, he can also be a druid.
As for the presence or abscence of a command word on Nok's Sphere, the entire item can be psionic (mental command) or, since its a universal/wondrous item, can use different rules than the command word activation.
Nok's death, like you said, is clearly demonstrated in the novel to be the result of Sadira striking Nok's Sphere with the Cane while the Sphere was drawing energy.
As for what Nok knows about dragons, being connected to the spirits of the land of a mighty forest like the Forest Ridge, and living close to a SK that has been dreaming of dragonhood for a millenia, can explain why Nok knows what he knows.
* For the build of the Heartwood Spear I have grazed a bit on how Nok created his most powerful artifacts: he invested character levels (similar to a level drain) into the item, allowing for it to be more powerful than what Nok could normally create (i.e. it replaces some CL and/or ML requirements). Nok, being a druid, asked the same sacrifice of a spirit of the land that had taken treant form, into the form of that giant oak tree from which Nok took out the Spear. After such a powerful artifact had been used to kill Kalak, it would have been reabsorbed into the tree, giving its borrowed levels back to their onwers.
I agree on almost all of what you said, as I said before having him be a preserver dragon is just my personal house game. I agree he would be a preserver, but the way the Dragon Prc and the spells are written currently does NOT remove the chance of a preserver becoming a dragon. (would have to be neutral aligned pretty much though.) The spells can be cast using your own exp instead of sacrificing animal life for it. And the powers themselves are not evil in nature..... just aggressive. (just like Nok was for his causes.)
I like the way you are doing it as well having the sphere be a magic item works too.... just not how I am doing it in my game. The cane was similiar to a staff of magi in my game. (still used the stats from psionic artifacts of athas, translated though just think of it on that scale.) It is just as likely that he was a preserver who made items that allow you to simulate dragon magic. (in fact back in 2ed I actually made rules speficially for items that drained from the animals around them instead of using charges up.)
Love your build on the heartwood spear btw
Sorry to sidetrack the other thread.
The more I think about it the more I disagree w/ Nok having any levels in defiler at all. In my past campaigns Nok was an extremist to say the least but his acts and ideals were still devoted to the preservation and growth of the forest ridge.
Ktandeo knowingly accepted Nok's assistance in the assassination of Kalak. Ktandeo seemed to be a man of very strong principle, and in way no can I see him consorting w/ a defiler (not to mention one of such epic power). The risk of treachery, deceit, and his own moral conscience would see to that.
To me it has to be the artifacts which allow him to wield that power. How did he come about the knowledge of such magic? The same way he came to know and learn about dragons. Perhaps he was a descendant of the rebel Rhulisti whom are now imprisoned alongside Rajaat. Perhaps he served Rajaat himself at some point. It could be as simple as long years of research, consulting w/ the spirits of the forest, the last tree and such. I do not feel that Nok is of sufficient power to create such items w/o outside help. This would probably come in the form of a spirit of the land or the last tree.
On the note of how he died: The fireball was what eventually killed him. The idea of Ktandeo's cane acting as a retroactive strike (like that of a staff of magi) does make sense, however would this be enough to kill a Dragon? True the breaking of the Scourge of Rkard was the end of two separate champions. However, in comparison I think all will agree, that the Cane crafted by Nok did not hold water to the sword crafted by Rajaat. The Cane definitely seemed to be a lesser artifact.
All in all I just feel that he was too easily defeated, his persona does not match that of a defiler, and strong sense of forest and tribe preservation does not fit w/ what I picture a dragon to be.
As I said before, I consider Nok to be a preserver Dragon, not a defiler. And comparing the scourge and the cane not being equivilent is true the cane was no were near the scourges power..... but by the same token most "young" dragons are no were near the SK's power either. Farcluun was finnished off by a group of characters around level 10 in my game. (this was after the Sorcerer Queen injured him pretty bad..... but still) And Sadira was a mid teens defiler with an artifact/epic magic item that she retributive striked him with...... that is pretty nasty.
The build for Nok's Cane, and Nok's Sphere, will eventually pass on my table at the equipment bureau, and I'll do all in my power to come with a way for the artifacts to allow something like dragon magic, but have it tied to the artifact itself, not the user. It would account for what we see in the novels (although it would probably not be related to Kevin Melka's attempt at a cane in PAoA, since that write-up is light years away from the novels AND adds some stuff that doesn't match the novels' flavor and that you can't even fathom where it comes from).
My earliest build for Nok went wizard (preserver) 10/druid 17/psion 8; posesses Nok’s Orb (similar to Nok's Cane).
That may be too many levels, but stuff like the write-up for the artifact and maybe, like Sysane said, a unique spirit-given template, could help lower those numbers.
In any case, the Nok that Sadira faces and kills has maybe 10 to 15 levels less than the above numbers, all those levels having been transfered to the Heartwood Spear.
I am really looking forward to seeing the writeups on the cane and orb.... Nok was always one of my favorite characters.
Only problem I see with that build, is Nok was stronger in the way than Agis and he was level 15 psionicist. And he really did not demonstrate many druidic abilities that I noticed in the book. (this was why I was only giving him a couple levels if any in my version.) Nok was able to take on the whole party to test them solo in the first book and he would have already invested all of the power he was giving up into the spear at that point, as they got the spear after they proved their worth.
That was the reasoning for the levels I gave him.
I am really looking forward to seeing the writeups on the cane and orb.... Nok was always one of my favorite characters.
Only problem I see with that build, is Nok was stronger in the way than Agis and he was level 15 psionicist. And he really did not demonstrate many druidic abilities that I noticed in the book. (this was why I was only giving him a couple levels if any in my version.) Nok was able to take on the whole party to test them solo in the first book and he would have already invested all of the power he was giving up into the spear at that point, as they got the spear after they proved their worth.
That was the reasoning for the levels I gave him.
Stronger but only slightly, or at least that is the way it appeared. He didn't really test them solo, as he had the help of some of his tribe, riding what appeared to be psudeodragons (sp?). Also, the party really did not put up much resistance if I remember correctly. Thier goal was not to kill Nok but to work as a team in reaching the other side of the bridge.
Nok never did demonstrate any druidic abilities, but it seemed to fit w/ his persona. This of course is debatable, and I can see it both ways.
To me his ability to craft said items comes from the knowledge of the great tree. That may not have been his source of knowledge in creating those items but it was his source of power.
It seems to be a bit cherry picking from the original content of 2E. I would play an Avangion over a Dragon any day. In the original context you would have to be a defiler to do so, but now it is possible to have it both ways... something that doesn't fit IMO.
Only problem I see with that build, is Nok was stronger in the way than Agis and he was level 15 psionicist. And he really did not demonstrate many druidic abilities that I noticed in the book. (this was why I was only giving him a couple levels if any in my version.) Nok was able to take on the whole party to test them solo in the first book and he would have already invested all of the power he was giving up into the spear at that point, as they got the spear after they proved their worth.
The build I did is an early one, the levels are suggested and can be rearranged.
Druid abilities for Nok are effectively rarely seen in the novels. The number of levels I gave is to represent him having mastered nature's calling, since Nok appears to have one helluva of a position within the Forest Ridge, one I would imagine only given to either high-level rangers or druids due to fluff saying those classes are linked to nature and the spirits. Halflings are anti-defiling and pro-nature, so...
Oh yes, I recall now the "why" of his low psion levels: in Xlorep's old rules, at least the ones he said he would eventually write but never did, the empowered obsidian orb could be used to enhance psionic power too. It would have been useful first for the Green Age's psions, then taken over by defilers.
So the orb that Nok has, while being like Sadira's cane, would also have been a psionic "booster" of some kind, possibly allowing Nok to overpower Agis in the novel.
All preliminary, like I said. Now the levels will need to be readjusted.
I did not understand the first time around you writing up that Nok could be a preserver dragon. I thought you meant actually a dragon, with preserver levels instead of defiler levels, which I agree the new rules can allow, but a route that DMs should strive not to have their players take (preserver advancehood is thematically linked with the avangion). But the idea that he's a preserver that learned to do a form of dragon magic, totally devoid of defiling, is all right by me and a pretty good idea.
The difference between a wizard (of either type) who goes towards being a Avangion and one who would become a Dragon, is a difference of personallity. Dragons are aggresive in what they want power wise... which is why aslmost all of them would be defilers..... however there is the possibility of an aggresive preserver. (Nok being the most glaring example in my opinion.) Avangion's however are geared more towards a protective stance, so you would never be able to get a full defiler to follow this path.
That is why I see Nok as a Dragon and not an Avangion (besides the whole dragon magic....) he is too aggresive and "teritorial" to really be an Avangion.
Stronger but only slightly, or at least that is the way it appeared. He didn't really test them solo, as he had the help of some of his tribe, riding what appeared to be psudeodragons (sp?). Also, the party really did not put up much resistance if I remember correctly. Thier goal was not to kill Nok but to work as a team in reaching the other side of the bridge.
Nok never did demonstrate any druidic abilities, but it seemed to fit w/ his persona. This of course is debatable, and I can see it both ways.
To me his ability to craft said items comes from the knowledge of the great tree. That may not have been his source of knowledge in creating those items but it was his source of power.
Actually I see it the same way on the psionics, stronger, but not overly so. And I saw nothing on him knowing druid magic. Though it did not look like Nok's group was not trying to fully kill them, just test them.
I think the tree did help on showing him how to create the items..... and this would explain his respect from the other halflings, he was the chosen disciple of the last tree.... his class does not matter, his bond with the tree was.
To me preserver dragon = oxymoron.
It seems to be a bit cherry picking from the original content of 2E. I would play an Avangion over a Dragon any day. In the original context you would have to be a defiler to do so, but now it is possible to have it both ways... something that doesn't fit IMO.
normally I would agree..... but there were too many things in the fluff that pointed me in this way, plus in the Q&A it was mentioned that this was the original idea.... not avangions.
The build I did is an early one, the levels are suggested and can be rearranged.
Druid abilities for Nok are effectively rarely seen in the novels. The number of levels I gave is to represent him having mastered nature's calling, since Nok appears to have one helluva of a position within the Forest Ridge, one I would imagine only given to either high-level rangers or druids due to fluff saying those classes are linked to nature and the spirits. Halflings are anti-defiling and pro-nature, so...
Oh yes, I recall now the "why" of his low psion levels: in Xlorep's old rules, at least the ones he said he would eventually write but never did, the empowered obsidian orb could be used to enhance psionic power too. It would have been useful first for the Green Age's psions, then taken over by defilers.
So the orb that Nok has, while being like Sadira's cane, would also have been a psionic "booster" of some kind, possibly allowing Nok to overpower Agis in the novel.
All preliminary, like I said. Now the levels will need to be readjusted.
On the druid levels, I think Nok had so much request due to the fact that he was chosen by the Last Tree as a student, not on his classes. The Last tree would still have knowledge of lifeshaping, so there is another possiblilty for talents Nok might have. (though they really do not fit too much on him. Though he does kind of fit the Lifeshaper class I have been working on.... hmmmm might need to look at that.)
Also, the Last Tree is said to be on the top of a Forest Ridge mountain, while the tree in the chapter with Nok isn't. Besides, Nok's tree, although giant-sized, is not of epic proportions. Its a huge oak tree.
There seems to be 3 trees in DS: the Last Tree of PAoA, the Black Tree of one of Lynn's novels, and the oak tree of the Verdant Passage.
The Black Tree appears to be nothing more than a lifeshaped tree transformed so as to contain the knowledge of the ancient halflings, in the form of glowing worms under its root system. The tree is huge but not of epic proportions. Its location is secret and the tree is surrounded by descendants and adepts of the rhulisti teachings.
The Last Tree is a living lifeshaped artifact, and also a great nature-master. It is of epic proportions, intelligent, self-motivated, and is situated in a secret locale.
Nok's oak tree appear to be a very old and massive oak tree, but nothing more. It shows no indication of being intelligent, and although Nok's actions might be interpreted as communing with the tree when he touches it, this can be spiritual in nature, or druidic in nature.
The Spear's, and thus Nok's, connection to the Last Tree is only suggested, and left open, in PAoA, under the Spear's write-up.
Also, the Last Tree is said to be on the top of a Forest Ridge mountain, while the tree in the chapter with Nok isn't. Besides, Nok's tree, although giant-sized, is not of epic proportions. Its a huge oak tree.
There seems to be 3 trees in DS: the Last Tree of PAoA, the Black Tree of one of Lynn's novels, and the oak tree of the Verdant Passage.
The Black Tree appears to be nothing more than a lifeshaped tree transformed so as to contain the knowledge of the ancient halflings, in the form of glowing worms under its root system. The tree is huge but not of epic proportions. Its location is secret and the tree is surrounded by descendants and adepts of the rhulisti teachings.
The Last Tree is a living lifeshaped artifact, and also a great nature-master. It is of epic proportions, intelligent, self-motivated, and is situated in a secret locale.
Nok's oak tree appear to be a very old and massive oak tree, but nothing more. It shows no indication of being intelligent, and although Nok's actions might be interpreted as communing with the tree when he touches it, this can be spiritual in nature, or druidic in nature.
I was aware of the different trees- I was just going by the tenuous relationship to the Last Tree to explain the relationship he had with the tribes
I personally see the tree he pulled the spear from being a tree of life he made.
The Spear's, and thus Nok's, connection to the Last Tree is only suggested, and left open, in PAoA, under the Spear's write-up.
Also, the Last Tree is said to be on the top of a Forest Ridge mountain, while the tree in the chapter with Nok isn't. Besides, Nok's tree, although giant-sized, is not of epic proportions. Its a huge oak tree.
There seems to be 3 trees in DS: the Last Tree of PAoA, the Black Tree of one of Lynn's novels, and the oak tree of the Verdant Passage.
The Black Tree appears to be nothing more than a lifeshaped tree transformed so as to contain the knowledge of the ancient halflings, in the form of glowing worms under its root system. The tree is huge but not of epic proportions. Its location is secret and the tree is surrounded by descendants and adepts of the rhulisti teachings.
The Last Tree is a living lifeshaped artifact, and also a great nature-master. It is of epic proportions, intelligent, self-motivated, and is situated in a secret locale.
Nok's oak tree appear to be a very old and massive oak tree, but nothing more. It shows no indication of being intelligent, and although Nok's actions might be interpreted as communing with the tree when he touches it, this can be spiritual in nature, or druidic in nature.
I would debate that the Last Tree in the PAoA book was inspired and a direct result of the description of the tree in the Verdant Passage. I feel the location of said tree was yet another discrepancy where the supplements deviated from the "fluff" in the novels. I, of course, have no evidence to back this up, but the similarities between the two point to this line of reasoning.
Besides, the Last Tree is a terribly impressive object, like meeting a god of nature made flesh, while the PP1 oak tree is given a few ordinary lines, and the halflings bear no apparent reverence to it, and the Tyrian heroes are not impressed like they were when they saw the Crimson Temple, like "Holy kank! What the frel is that?!"
Seker, the oak tree being a tree of life is one of the two possibilities I considered, the other being an athasian treant. Both are excellent - and I believe - better alternatives to making the oak tree the Last Tree.
I would put the Last Tree somewhere else in the Forest Ridge, and have it be the religious center of that local region of the woods, and be considered a sacred and mythical area by halflings further away.
That's the thing Synns, besides being a big tree, I see no resemblance between the two. The Last Tree does seem to be an honest attempt by Melka to use the PP1 tree as fluff for a new artifact, but the actual descriptions are so tenuous as to be dubbed ethereal (or is thw word astral?).
Besides, the Last Tree is a terribly impressive object, like meeting a god of nature made flesh, while the PP1 oak tree is given a few ordinary lines, and the halflings bear no apparent reverence to it, and the Tyrian heroes are not impressed like they were when they saw the Crimson Temple, like "Holy kank! What the frel is that?!"
Very true, I would expect a much different reaction if they truly did behold something that resembled the last tree. Here I thought it all made sense to me, and you go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing. ;)
My familiarity with 3.5 mechanics is somewhat limited. That being said, sacrifices seem to be common place amongst the Halflings of the forest ridge. Could this lend itself to a means to create an artifact such as the spear or the cane? X amount of Halflings sacrifice themselves in the process of the enchantment process, which is being performed by an epic character...
The farthest I believe we can go under the circumstances is powerful epic people and creatures investing their essence into an artifact, losing levels/HD permanently unless the process is reversed.
But, there might be a way to spend HD/character levels in the same way, losing some and freeing their exp, for the purpose of paying the price for chargeless magic items, but items only (not epic spells), because those items could later be recycled, in effect unmaking them, freeing up the exp they're made of (besides the normal exp cost of enchanting items), turning it back into HD/character levels.
If anyone knows if this is possible, mechanic-wise, let me know.