Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnBiles 01-20-08, 04:14 AM	The Isle of Dread appears in the Worlds and Monsters preview book. One of their goals for 4E appears to be to incorporate some iconic locations from past adventures into the default world of the game. (Used in generating its fluff portions.) The Isle of Dread appears as one of these (along with the Temple of Elemental Evil). I didn't recognize the other ones. In the context of 4E cosmology, it's located in the Feywild, one of two planes which roughly parallel the Material World, home to, as you'd guess, the fey.
havard 01-20-08, 08:25 AM	Sweet! I don't care too much about the Feywild connection, but what is the Isle of Dread section like otherwise? Any new maps? New art? Any mention of Mystara specific elements like Aranea, Phanatons, Kopru etc? How much space is devoted to the Isle in total? Does its inclusion here suggest that future 4e material will revisit the Isle? For a Mystara take on the Isle, I would have liked to see it getting a stronger link to the Hollow World. Do storms around the Isle sometimes send travellers from the Thanegioth Archipelago to the Pirate Isles in the Hollow World? Do strange tunnels lead from the mountains of the Isle of Dread to a speedy entry to random locations in the HW? Havard
CRichardDavies 01-20-08, 03:40 PM	The Isle of Dread appears as one of these (along with the Temple of Elemental Evil). I didn't recognize the other ones. In the context of 4E cosmology, it's located in the Feywild, one of two planes which roughly parallel the Material World, home to, as you'd guess, the fey. Well, that certainly changes my previously low opinion of 4e! Not. Chris Davies.
JohnBiles 01-20-08, 04:53 PM	Sweet! I don't care too much about the Feywild connection, but what is the Isle of Dread section like otherwise? Any new maps? New art? Any mention of Mystara specific elements like Aranea, Phanatons, Kopru etc? How much space is devoted to the Isle in total? It's a relatively short piece as this is just a preview book, so we don't get a lot of detail, unfortunately; I expect the 4E DM book will have more on it.
GenghisUber 01-27-08, 06:31 PM	If you're hoping for Mystara-related material in 4e, I suspect you're going to be as disappointed as the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms crowds. The idea behind 4e actually dovetails perfectly with the original conception of Mystara, but the world drifted pretty far from the original concept with the later gazetteers, boxed sets, and Savage Coast. I loved Mystara when I was younger, but reading over the 4e premises and preview works I can see where they're trying to get back to the roots of the game. I could see a re-imagining of Mystara fitting with 4e ideas and the system. I've actually been kicking that idea around for a while in my own mind, although I've been running my game in a world of my own creation. The Known World as it existed in the original Isle of Dread adventure (and the expert set) is a near-perfect "Points of Light" setting. Karameikos as it exists in Gaz1 could fit well with some work (decreasing the population of some of the towns, notably). It was nice to see a nod to Mystara in the Isle of Dread reference in Worlds and Monsters, though, since I spent most of middle and high school adventuring there.
TraverseTravis 02-08-08, 11:42 AM	Karameikos as it exists in Gaz1 could fit well with some work (decreasing the population of some of the towns, notably). Filing a zero off the population figure for each settlement might work. In fact, weren't the original population figures for Threshold and other Karameikan settlements from the Expert rulebook inflated in later products with an added zero? If so, then filing off those zeros in 4E Karameikos would simply be a return to the original conception. Or am I misremembering? Travis
Agathokles 02-08-08, 12:16 PM	Filing a zero off the population figure for each settlement might work. In fact, weren't the original population figures for Threshold and other Karameikan settlements from the Expert rulebook inflated in later products with an added zero? If so, then filing off those zeros in 4E Karameikos would simply be a return to the original conception. Or am I misremembering? You're right, the GAZ decuplicates the population of Specularum and Threshold. However, it is very reasonable -- as it was, Karameikos was really underpopulated. Even with GAZ/PWA numbers, the population density of Karameikos is quite small compared to similar RW areas/times -- equal to that of modern Mongolia (one of the lowest in the world), and lower than most medieval european nations. If you consider that Specularum accounts for 1/4 to 1/3 or the population depending on the sources and estimates, the density of the rural areas becomes lower that that of desertic areas. GP
GenghisUber 02-09-08, 04:33 PM	Even with GAZ/PWA numbers, the population density of Karameikos is quite small compared to similar RW areas/times -- equal to that of modern Mongolia (one of the lowest in the world), and lower than most medieval european nations. If you consider that Specularum accounts for 1/4 to 1/3 or the population depending on the sources and estimates, the density of the rural areas becomes lower that that of desertic areas. GP However, the original numbers would fit very well with 4th edition. The premise of the game is to make as many aspects of the setting fun for gaming, hence the doing away with historical accuracy and a lot of the less-fun aspects of the cosmology. The Known World, before it was named Mystara, is probably one of the best 4th edition-ready settings around. I love Mystara, and I'm going to be happy to toss out most of the PWA and the later GAZ series and introduce the setting to my gaming group. Not because it's not good material, but because I like the feel of 4th edition (it's very much like the way gaming was when the red box and blue box sets came out) and the GAZ/PWA took the world in a much more "historical simulation" direction. It was a lot of fun, but I'm ready to get back to playing the game the way most of us started playing (and for the same reasons).
Agathokles 02-09-08, 04:44 PM	However, the original numbers would fit very well with 4th edition. The premise of the game is to make as many aspects of the setting fun for gaming, I can't see how reducing Specularum from 60000 to 5000 inhabitants makes the game more fun. G.
GenghisUber 02-09-08, 05:04 PM	I can't see how reducing Specularum from 60000 to 5000 inhabitants makes the game more fun. Reduced ability to purchase powerful magic items (ie, you have to adventure to get them). Grittier feel because humans are not always the dominant species (ie, leaving town is more likely to be an adventure). More room to adventure because powerful cities are fewer and farther in between. That's just what I can think of in 30 seconds.
GenghisUber 02-09-08, 05:06 PM	I can't see how reducing Specularum from 60000 to 5000 inhabitants makes the game more fun. Also, I think you miss the spirit of the idea and focus in on one, tiny, tangentially-at-best related detail, which is unfortunate.
Agathokles 02-10-08, 03:04 AM	Reduced ability to purchase powerful magic items (ie, you have to adventure to get them). Actually, there's no reason why you should be able to purchase magical items in Specularum, since the only powerful wizard is Teldon, and he doesn't run a shop. I suspect that the equation "large town" = "magic item shop" is a 3e construct, because I'm quite certain it wasn't in GAZ1. Grittier feel because humans are not always the dominant species (ie, leaving town is more likely to be an adventure). More room to adventure because powerful cities are fewer and farther in between. This assumes the following: 1) Humans don't provide adventure opportunities; 2) Powerful cities don't provide adventure opportunities. I'd point you to "B6 Veiled Society" as a prime example of old style adventure based on a large/powerful city and human opponents. Of course, the "Davinos' Complaint" adventure in GAZ1 is another such example, and the adventure hooks "Toys of a Madman", "Millennium in the Streets", "The Sins of Valdo Tisza", "Poisoners in the Night", and "The Missing Rose" (and that's only for Basic adventures) all use a city setting with mostly or exclusively human opponents. Note that, while none of this is a typical dungeon crawl, there no reason why you can't set a dungeon crawl in a large or medium sized-city (see for example "The Discovery of Lavv" in GAZ1 or the first part of B12). Tangentially, I'll point out the fact that, if realism is not a requirement, than there's no reason why you couldn't be attacked by dangerous non-human monsters in a highly populated region. To sum it up, the only reason I could see for a reduction of the Karameikos population is that one doesn't want to play adventures of the above mentioned kind -- i.e., to force the players to focus on wilderness exploration. While it is a viable reason, it's not the same as "to get more adventure opportunities" (actually, it's exactly the opposite). GP
Agathokles 02-10-08, 03:11 AM	Also, I think you miss the spirit of the idea and focus in on one, tiny, tangentially-at-best related detail, which is unfortunate. Actually, you said your issue with GAZ1 Karameikos is mostly with the population of towns: Karameikos as it exists in Gaz1 could fit well with some work (decreasing the population of some of the towns, notably). Now you say that is an irrelevant detail. So, either GAZ1 fits as is, or you actually haven't told us how it doesn't fit. Therefore, before telling people they "miss the spirit" of your ideas, you should perhaps take the time to explain them. GP
GenghisUber 02-10-08, 09:04 AM	I was mentioning how I thought early versions of Mystara would be a good fit for 4th edition. Take my statements for what they're worth because if you're looking to argue, internet-style, about it I've got other things to do with my time (discuss, yes. argue, no) The basic idea that I was trying to get across that you seem pretty aggressively uninterested in is that I think "old" Mystara has the gritty, cramped feeling that WotC is going for in 4th edition. There's lots of room to adventure, fantastic things are at least possible if not common, and it's just got that fantasy game feel that you don't get in every world. It's also got a great sense of history along with many "ancient mysteries" to springboard adventures. There are a number of iconic locations in the game (Threshold, Itheldown Castle, Great School of Magic, Malpheggi Swamp, Isle of Dread).
GenghisUber 02-10-08, 09:54 AM	Now you say that is an irrelevant detail. So, either GAZ1 fits as is, or you actually haven't told us how it doesn't fit. Therefore, before telling people they "miss the spirit" of your ideas, you should perhaps take the time to explain them. I'm going to give this ONE SHOT and assume that you have a serious question and you're not trying to suck me into an internet flamewar with strawman arguments. Here it goes: GAZ1 fits nearly as-is. I think the population figures are a little too high for the style of gaming that it seems like 4th edition is introducing (or most other editions, for that matter). Except for Mystara (and probably Forgotten Realms), 50+ thousand people cities should be exceedingly rare, not the capital of a country repeatedly described as a sparely populated, back-wood feeling country. Threshold is supposed to be a struggling frontier town that needs all the help it can get from even low-level adventurers, but it's population (5000, I believe) puts it at "small city" status and starts to stretch verisimilitude. Don't misconstrue my statements as an attack on Mystara. I love the world and started the project to convert it to 3E back in 1999. I had the same problems with the world then as I do now (many of the later Mystara products and articles were, IN MY OPINION, more about Mystara than playing D&D ... fine for fanboyism, but not quite as useful for DMing in Mystara).
Agathokles 02-10-08, 10:37 AM	Don't misconstrue my statements as an attack on Mystara. I love the world and started the project to convert it to 3E back in 1999. I had the same problems with the world then as I do now (many of the later Mystara products and articles were, IN MY OPINION, more about Mystara than playing D&D ... fine for fanboyism, but not quite as useful for DMing in Mystara). I'm not misconstruing anything. Saying that products about Mystara are fine for fanboys amounts to offending most people on this board. Saying that GAZs are not useful for DMing is plain false. I already tried to show you some examples, but you clearly aren't interested in discussing, just in preaching your ideas. I do have better things to do than reading you. G.
GenghisUber 02-10-08, 11:10 AM	Can you read the entire post instead of cherry picking one sentence out of each one that, out-of-context, offends you? That's the essence of a discussion.
havard 02-10-08, 01:28 PM	Guys, lighten up! :) Genghis: GP is a well respected member of the Mystara community. He may be meticulous, but I think you misread his intentions about his first post. Now, since you are a newcomer, accept this tankard of my home-brewed mead ;) Havard
Hugin 02-11-08, 10:58 AM	I actually see both sides. I do find the population numbers in cities to be on the high side and the rural figures to be a little low in comparison to our history. However, Mystara (or most any fantasy setting for that matter), would not have experienced the same development dynamic as our world has. Mystara is a far more dangerous world than our own. I'd think that would create a greater tendency for humans (and others) to form larger groupings as much as possible. The saying "There is safety in numbers" would be all the more significant in a world like Mystara. Magic would also increase the possibility of larger towns. Actually, there's no reason why you should be able to purchase magical items in Specularum, since the only powerful wizard is Teldon, and he doesn't run a shop. I suspect that the equation "large town" = "magic item shop" is a 3e construct, because I'm quite certain it wasn't in GAZ1. You are mostly correct I believe. The 3.5E DMG has a guide to wealth by city size suggesting what the highest value items would conceivably be in a settlement of a given size. Many players have taken this to be a 'rule' that says you can buy whatever you want up to that gp limit. I don't have magic shops in my games. The closest thing that would come to a 'magic shop' would be the various magic-users guilds, but they are extremely regulating and restrictive. I was mentioning how I thought early versions of Mystara would be a good fit for 4th edition. I quite agree with you, GenghisUber, although I still feel that Mystara in its current state also fits well. I've always played Mystara as a kind of 'points of light' setting. As I said at the beginning of this post, people would congregate into settlements more often than in our world. Therefore, less scattered spots of people and more defined places of 'relative' safety. This is what I see in Mystara. But as GP pointed out, this 'relative' safety is based only from external threats and does not mean there are no internal threats for adventurers to face inside these so-called 'points of light'.
Barons_man 02-18-08, 04:51 PM	My two pennnyworth - I've always treated the Gaz population figures for Threshold, Kelvin etc, as the main town plus the surrounding area. Which gives me smaller towns and cities and lots of wilderness. Even if you keep the Gaz populations, and worked out additional population to support the town, you should still have enough unworked land and wilderness for some interesting encounters. What we tend to forget, is the distances involved when travelling on foot, for the average peasant 10 miles is a good trek, especially if you need to walk another 10 miles home. Obviously quicker by horse, which gives the 'nobles' a different view of travel, and by our standards 10 miles is just round the corner by car. I live on the outskirts of a small town in England, and what has changed my perspective on distance, is walking my dog in the countryside and seeing how quickly the town fades away to hill farms and areas which although have paths nearby are not usually frequented. Opinions are just that - and facts have a habit of changing when new information is revealed.
Hugin 02-19-08, 09:42 AM	What we tend to forget, is the distances involved when travelling on foot, for the average peasant 10 miles is a good trek, especially if you need to walk another 10 miles home. Obviously quicker by horse, which gives the 'nobles' a different view of travel, and by our standards 10 miles is just round the corner by car. That's one thing we often forget is that our perception of distance is quite different than it would be for someone in this time period. I know my group has to remind ourselves about how different our world is from a medieval world, especially a fantasy one.