An illusionist crafter gnome in RL? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

An illusionist crafter gnome in RL?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
scipion_emilien
Apr 23, 2005 15:10:52 One of my player, while liking the story telling of a ravenloft campaing seem to dosn't like the low-magic level that don't give him some pretty look item that could destroy all...

For his current character, he understand that for the quest, he had to put aside his desire to get magic item. But now he want to do a new PC: an illusionnist gnome that have for sole purpose in live to craft magic item. He even say that it s doesnt botter him if he start two lvl under the current one of party instead of the usual minus one.

Even if this PC enter into the "everything that is core book and dosent allow you to have the clue of the mysterie in one spell or dice" rule i use for allow my pc to plan, im not stupid and I find it obvious that he want to contourn the boundaries about magic item in the world.

So now my dilemna, should i allow him his pc?

If i allow him, from where in RL could a gnome illusionnist that craft magic item could come??

What his spell book would look like (for an 8-lvl wiz)?

What kind of limitation would he face in his crafting entreprise? After all, if magic item are so rare in ravenloft, it must be more because of physical factor like more costly component than by a lack of knowledge by the locals mages!

So i am open to any advice you could have. And i already thougt of running a campaign in Sithicus ;) .
#2
Mortepierre
Apr 23, 2005 16:04:42 Wait. Are we talking about an illusionist that wants to craft magic items for himself (& his group) or about an illusionist that wants to mass-craft magic items and then sell them throughout the Core (if not beyond)?

If it's the former, then by all means let him do it. There isn't anything in the RL rules against it. Heck! He'll have a difficult enough time as it is.

Remember that in RL, you usually find less gold and magic items than in other settings. Moreover, certain rare materials (needed to craft certain items) will be a lot more expensive, IF they exist at all (i.e. mithral, etc..)

Add the fact that while his friends gather experience, he'll be investing xp in items and I would think it is not the good bargain he thinks it is.

Moreover, with some spells demanding power checks (and Phantasmal Killer is one of them), he'll have a tough time completing anything if he starts failing a few checks.

If that's not enough, well there are a few other things to consider:
a) creating magic items takes time. His companions may not be willing to wait for him forever
b) darklords (& other nefarious individuals) are always looking for an edge. If they learn of someone creating magic items on a regular basis, they'll pay him a visit which he won't forget (ask the creator of a certain cat figurine...)
c) ditto for heroes

In short, even if he manages to gather all the components needed AND agrees to suffer the consequences of not adventuring for a long while, he'll still be in trouble up to his neck sooner or later.

Remember, he can't turn into a magic factory unless YOU give him the means to. As a DM, the power is yours.
#3
Prof._Pacali
Apr 26, 2005 10:23:03 There are two ways to restrict the making of magic items in RL:

1) Restrict access to gold and the spells that are necessary to craft the items. Feel free to raise the base price of an item, or to add a power component (see the DMG for details on power components).

2) Add curses to the item, especially if the gnome is obsessed with making magic items. Embarressing curses are better than frustrating or more powerful curses, at least at first.
#4
zombiegleemax
Apr 28, 2005 22:21:49 I always assumed that the main reason for a relative lack of magic items is, mainly due to wizards being rather rare and very secluded, so you are much more likely to have wizards as mysterious people who tend to be avoided, either thought of as eccentric or viewed with great suspicion. so if he wants to craft items for his own use, that's fine, but if he wants to sell magic items, unless it's just weapons or armor of 'exceptional craftmanship' (straight bonus, no obviously magical effects, which even so, he may have some trouble finding someone who can afford to pay what it's worth who wants to buy it). but if he starts trying to sell obviously magical items in most place, I'd put very high odds on his house being burnt down and him being chased out of town.
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 29, 2005 10:01:34 Mortepierre has got this one nailed to the floor. I agree 237%.

Not even in Ravenloft do I often say "no..." Just, once the decision is made, allow the roleplaying difficulties of the decision to sink in.

As for the original question, probably the strongest possibility for a homeland for a gnomish illusionist would have to be Darkon. Azalin's not so rabid in his suppression of spellcasters as he once was, Darkon's not so zealously striated along racial lines as the other Core domains...

I say, let `im have it... and then let the sucker have it.
#6
zombiegleemax
Apr 30, 2005 4:44:21 I concur. Let him do it. Don't shirk the penalties of being a gnome and/or a wizard in different parts of the Core.

As has been said before access to gold is often a limiting factor. If you are afraid there might be too much gold floating around there are further ways to limit what he can produce. I played around with two lines of experimentation that have produced some good effects IMO for keeping low magic worlds.

(1) Require a "formula" to be developed for each type of item to be created. If you have to spend 1/4 the market price of an item (plus 4 days per 1,000 gps spent on research) just to learn how to put it together you are introducing a limitation on the number of different widgets the PC will be able to create. Expect to see more copies of a more limited number of widgets. Feats to create wands and wonderous items generally become less attaractive than Craft Arms and Armor. I have used the difference in cost between a basic +1 sword and a +2 sword as the cost of researching the "upgrade" as well.

One nice thing about this system is you can include a "formula" as part of a treasure. Discovering the method to create something the party could really use can be a big deal! The other nice thing is that those NPC formulas can have hooks and limitations planted in them (this formula is a little differnt uses a spell that requires a powers check, this formula only works if a vistani fiddles while you craft it...)

(2) You can rule that you can only craft items in towns and cities that have a GP limit greater than the item you want to create. For example a village has a GP Limit of 200 gps (see the core DMG pg 137). Can't enchant your masterwork sword there (costs 2,000 gps - 10x over the limit). There aren't that many big cities in Ravenloft. To craft a +1 sword requires you to go to a large town. Even in a city of 12,000 people (with a 15,000 gp limit) you can't build a 16,000 gp Belt of Giant's Strength +4. Even when you're somewhere that has the assests to allow item creation you're going to be be hard pressed to do so in secret...and there may be repercussions if word of your "unnatural endevours" gets out.

If the PCs wants to build an approriate forge or alchemical lab then he is free to do so...but it takes time and money and doesn't move easily. The rule I tried was it takes 1d4 weeks to spend/assemble (or move) 1,000 gps of "stuff". When your lab has a higher value than what you wish to create you may start building. This came mostly off the top of my head and was based on the difficulty Strahd and Azalin had in the novel I Strahd:the war with Azalin in building their device to escape Ravenloft. In a mage friendlier Hazalan or Darkon you might be more generous.

If you use some option to limit the players crafting abilities be sure to tell him or her ahead of time so there are no unexpected surprises. If you use one or the other (or both) I think its safe for you to let him come in at whatever level is appropraite rather than down an extra level.

My two cents

-Eric Gorman
#7
zombiegleemax
Apr 30, 2005 19:43:47 Is the player's character a native or an outsider? I wonder if it would be in character for him to know about the more... interesting side effects of Illusion (Shadow) spells?
#8
rotipher
May 02, 2005 15:17:55 If this gnome is obsessed enough with a *specific* magic item he's trying to create, as opposed to just being really really good at crafting magic items in general, you might set him up for a nasty surprise: the finished item is ALIVE! Much as a golem-crafter creates a sentient creature from non-living materials -- one that invariably becomes hostile and dangerous to its maker -- so a magical item created as a product of true obsession might be granted an intellect, and perhaps mobility as well (though it might keep that power a secret at first), by the dark forces that dominate the Land of Mists.

Like a new-made golem, the sentient item would at first be emotionally dependent and eager for attention from its creator, but as it "matures" and grows progressively more angry at its maker for daring to treat it like a mere tool, it'd turn contemptuous, and eventually murderous, toward its designer. If it's a weapon, it'd turn upon its maker in battle; if it's a spell-trigger item, it might develop the ability to use the spell effect it generates for its own treacherous purposes. Indeed, if it's an illusion-creating item, the *illusions themselves* might take on a kind of pseudo-life, and turn against the gnome as the sentient item urges them on!
#9
zombiegleemax
May 03, 2005 19:22:28 I think the character Scipion E. wrote about is trying to end run around the traditional limits on the amount of magic found in the Land of Mists rather than obessing over one item. But your ideas are certainly good! I'm going to add that to my bag of evil tricks for when a spellcaster fails a powers check.

But I don't think I'm going to necessarily going to provide a hostile personality a la "the created". I think theres just as much potential for playing "games" with something more along the lines of a paladin's dread mount. The "twisted" item has a mind of its own, and obesseive connection to the player and his or her goals...and a thoroughly CE alignment as it propigates the PCs agenda (often behind their back!)

-Eric Gorman
#10
scipion_emilien
May 04, 2005 13:19:57 Excellent ideas HvF and Rotipher, i think i will use both of them. If he is so obsessed with his items (and ruining the game), perhaps one or two of them will become sentient and have some grief after him.

As point out by the Brandi, the player dosen t know about the magics limitation in the land of the mist, so i bet it would be more funny if he do an outsider and discover them by himself.

I don t know if you remember, i already post about How to handle 10 lvl pc in ravenloft. I realize in reading this post that is a little similar that this come from a lack of experience of myself about the challenge i could put to my pc and a comprehension on how function a low-magic world (on the gaming mechanic side). I think that from a story telling point of view, im fine, it s more on the gameplay aspect i have some problem.

Many of you seem to be experienced DM, do you know how i could avoid the trial and error learning method or at least avoiding a little of this error to address this flaw in my DMing style?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 scipion_emilien Apr 23, 2005 15:10:52	One of my player, while liking the story telling of a ravenloft campaing seem to dosn't like the low-magic level that don't give him some pretty look item that could destroy all... For his current character, he understand that for the quest, he had to put aside his desire to get magic item. But now he want to do a new PC: an illusionnist gnome that have for sole purpose in live to craft magic item. He even say that it s doesnt botter him if he start two lvl under the current one of party instead of the usual minus one. Even if this PC enter into the "everything that is core book and dosent allow you to have the clue of the mysterie in one spell or dice" rule i use for allow my pc to plan, im not stupid and I find it obvious that he want to contourn the boundaries about magic item in the world. So now my dilemna, should i allow him his pc? If i allow him, from where in RL could a gnome illusionnist that craft magic item could come?? What his spell book would look like (for an 8-lvl wiz)? What kind of limitation would he face in his crafting entreprise? After all, if magic item are so rare in ravenloft, it must be more because of physical factor like more costly component than by a lack of knowledge by the locals mages! So i am open to any advice you could have. And i already thougt of running a campaign in Sithicus ;) .
#2 Mortepierre Apr 23, 2005 16:04:42	Wait. Are we talking about an illusionist that wants to craft magic items for himself (& his group) or about an illusionist that wants to mass-craft magic items and then sell them throughout the Core (if not beyond)? If it's the former, then by all means let him do it. There isn't anything in the RL rules against it. Heck! He'll have a difficult enough time as it is. Remember that in RL, you usually find less gold and magic items than in other settings. Moreover, certain rare materials (needed to craft certain items) will be a lot more expensive, IF they exist at all (i.e. mithral, etc..) Add the fact that while his friends gather experience, he'll be investing xp in items and I would think it is not the good bargain he thinks it is. Moreover, with some spells demanding power checks (and Phantasmal Killer is one of them), he'll have a tough time completing anything if he starts failing a few checks. If that's not enough, well there are a few other things to consider: a) creating magic items takes time. His companions may not be willing to wait for him forever b) darklords (& other nefarious individuals) are always looking for an edge. If they learn of someone creating magic items on a regular basis, they'll pay him a visit which he won't forget (ask the creator of a certain cat figurine...) c) ditto for heroes In short, even if he manages to gather all the components needed AND agrees to suffer the consequences of not adventuring for a long while, he'll still be in trouble up to his neck sooner or later. Remember, he can't turn into a magic factory unless YOU give him the means to. As a DM, the power is yours.
#3 Prof._Pacali Apr 26, 2005 10:23:03	There are two ways to restrict the making of magic items in RL: 1) Restrict access to gold and the spells that are necessary to craft the items. Feel free to raise the base price of an item, or to add a power component (see the DMG for details on power components). 2) Add curses to the item, especially if the gnome is obsessed with making magic items. Embarressing curses are better than frustrating or more powerful curses, at least at first.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 28, 2005 22:21:49	I always assumed that the main reason for a relative lack of magic items is, mainly due to wizards being rather rare and very secluded, so you are much more likely to have wizards as mysterious people who tend to be avoided, either thought of as eccentric or viewed with great suspicion. so if he wants to craft items for his own use, that's fine, but if he wants to sell magic items, unless it's just weapons or armor of 'exceptional craftmanship' (straight bonus, no obviously magical effects, which even so, he may have some trouble finding someone who can afford to pay what it's worth who wants to buy it). but if he starts trying to sell obviously magical items in most place, I'd put very high odds on his house being burnt down and him being chased out of town.
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 29, 2005 10:01:34	Mortepierre has got this one nailed to the floor. I agree 237%. Not even in Ravenloft do I often say "no..." Just, once the decision is made, allow the roleplaying difficulties of the decision to sink in. As for the original question, probably the strongest possibility for a homeland for a gnomish illusionist would have to be Darkon. Azalin's not so rabid in his suppression of spellcasters as he once was, Darkon's not so zealously striated along racial lines as the other Core domains... I say, let `im have it... and then let the sucker have it.
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 30, 2005 4:44:21	I concur. Let him do it. Don't shirk the penalties of being a gnome and/or a wizard in different parts of the Core. As has been said before access to gold is often a limiting factor. If you are afraid there might be too much gold floating around there are further ways to limit what he can produce. I played around with two lines of experimentation that have produced some good effects IMO for keeping low magic worlds. (1) Require a "formula" to be developed for each type of item to be created. If you have to spend 1/4 the market price of an item (plus 4 days per 1,000 gps spent on research) just to learn how to put it together you are introducing a limitation on the number of different widgets the PC will be able to create. Expect to see more copies of a more limited number of widgets. Feats to create wands and wonderous items generally become less attaractive than Craft Arms and Armor. I have used the difference in cost between a basic +1 sword and a +2 sword as the cost of researching the "upgrade" as well. One nice thing about this system is you can include a "formula" as part of a treasure. Discovering the method to create something the party could really use can be a big deal! The other nice thing is that those NPC formulas can have hooks and limitations planted in them (this formula is a little differnt uses a spell that requires a powers check, this formula only works if a vistani fiddles while you craft it...) (2) You can rule that you can only craft items in towns and cities that have a GP limit greater than the item you want to create. For example a village has a GP Limit of 200 gps (see the core DMG pg 137). Can't enchant your masterwork sword there (costs 2,000 gps - 10x over the limit). There aren't that many big cities in Ravenloft. To craft a +1 sword requires you to go to a large town. Even in a city of 12,000 people (with a 15,000 gp limit) you can't build a 16,000 gp Belt of Giant's Strength +4. Even when you're somewhere that has the assests to allow item creation you're going to be be hard pressed to do so in secret...and there may be repercussions if word of your "unnatural endevours" gets out. If the PCs wants to build an approriate forge or alchemical lab then he is free to do so...but it takes time and money and doesn't move easily. The rule I tried was it takes 1d4 weeks to spend/assemble (or move) 1,000 gps of "stuff". When your lab has a higher value than what you wish to create you may start building. This came mostly off the top of my head and was based on the difficulty Strahd and Azalin had in the novel I Strahd:the war with Azalin in building their device to escape Ravenloft. In a mage friendlier Hazalan or Darkon you might be more generous. If you use some option to limit the players crafting abilities be sure to tell him or her ahead of time so there are no unexpected surprises. If you use one or the other (or both) I think its safe for you to let him come in at whatever level is appropraite rather than down an extra level. My two cents -Eric Gorman
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 30, 2005 19:43:47	Is the player's character a native or an outsider? I wonder if it would be in character for him to know about the more... interesting side effects of Illusion (Shadow) spells?
#8 rotipher May 02, 2005 15:17:55	If this gnome is obsessed enough with a specific magic item he's trying to create, as opposed to just being really really good at crafting magic items in general, you might set him up for a nasty surprise: the finished item is ALIVE! Much as a golem-crafter creates a sentient creature from non-living materials -- one that invariably becomes hostile and dangerous to its maker -- so a magical item created as a product of true obsession might be granted an intellect, and perhaps mobility as well (though it might keep that power a secret at first), by the dark forces that dominate the Land of Mists. Like a new-made golem, the sentient item would at first be emotionally dependent and eager for attention from its creator, but as it "matures" and grows progressively more angry at its maker for daring to treat it like a mere tool, it'd turn contemptuous, and eventually murderous, toward its designer. If it's a weapon, it'd turn upon its maker in battle; if it's a spell-trigger item, it might develop the ability to use the spell effect it generates for its own treacherous purposes. Indeed, if it's an illusion-creating item, the illusions themselves might take on a kind of pseudo-life, and turn against the gnome as the sentient item urges them on!
#9 zombiegleemax May 03, 2005 19:22:28	I think the character Scipion E. wrote about is trying to end run around the traditional limits on the amount of magic found in the Land of Mists rather than obessing over one item. But your ideas are certainly good! I'm going to add that to my bag of evil tricks for when a spellcaster fails a powers check. But I don't think I'm going to necessarily going to provide a hostile personality a la "the created". I think theres just as much potential for playing "games" with something more along the lines of a paladin's dread mount. The "twisted" item has a mind of its own, and obesseive connection to the player and his or her goals...and a thoroughly CE alignment as it propigates the PCs agenda (often behind their back!) -Eric Gorman
#10 scipion_emilien May 04, 2005 13:19:57	Excellent ideas HvF and Rotipher, i think i will use both of them. If he is so obsessed with his items (and ruining the game), perhaps one or two of them will become sentient and have some grief after him. As point out by the Brandi, the player dosen t know about the magics limitation in the land of the mist, so i bet it would be more funny if he do an outsider and discover them by himself. I don t know if you remember, i already post about How to handle 10 lvl pc in ravenloft. I realize in reading this post that is a little similar that this come from a lack of experience of myself about the challenge i could put to my pc and a comprehension on how function a low-magic world (on the gaming mechanic side). I think that from a story telling point of view, im fine, it s more on the gameplay aspect i have some problem. Many of you seem to be experienced DM, do you know how i could avoid the trial and error learning method or at least avoiding a little of this error to address this flaw in my DMing style?