ErikMona wrote:
However I'd still like to see other, varied places/adventures in GH described in DUNGEON. Oh well, I;ll take what I can get!
......................................Omote
FPQ
You're a better hunter than I. Could you post a link to the errata?
Sure, it's in this thread:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/maureCastle
Scroll near the bottom of page 1 and look for the answers of James Jacobs
You know what they say sometimes the inkwell dries out.
We'll be doing Maure Castle levels as long as Rob Kuntz is game and as long as they continue to be popular. Probably something like one or two levels a year for as long as we can keep it up and as long as everyone (including us) stays interested.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with how much or how little Greyhawk stuff we publish, so please don't take it as a sign that we're avoiding other things. We publish at least 36 adventures a year. One of them will be a Maure Castle level, but several others will be of interest to Greyhawk fans.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon & Dragon
My only concern is that it will become to redundant, when their are many other things concerning GH that can be touched upon. I do know that dungeon prints many GH adventures which is one of the reasons I actually purchase the magazine. However you must admit that at first their where only to be two additional levels to Maure now we will be receiving the levelof the quarter which might be well written but to me can actually cheapen the effect of the first article printed in the dungeon magazine.
Sometimes classics are classics because they have been long since done. Perhaps an article surrounding new inhabitents to Maure instead of new levels would be nice. But I'm sure Mr. Kuntz is capable of writing about many other things then new levels. My concern is not with Maure but with utilizing the same exact approach to Maure each time it is revisited.
I don't know how this next article will pan out but I will see if it seems to much of the same thing then why would I want to purchase it again a few months down the line.
Let me state that while I purchase the magazine I haven't used one adventure published within it's pages for two years. Alot of the adventures in it have some interesting ideas and I'll take what I find useful from them. Now I sure you have several people who will utilize everything word for word within the magazine and thats fine too. However I rather see small tidbits of information here and their then more of the same ever couple of months.
Variety is the spice of life, I think any roleplayer can agree with that. So maybe my post was a little preemptory,however I was also the first person who stated Robert Jordan was over extending his stories and that if he continued on that path each book would get worse. At first I was criticized, but now I can't find one person who disagrees with me.
I'm not difficult to appease, I just expect more because I'm a GH fan.
Read again what Erik said. He stated "..as long as everyone (including us) stays interested.."
That means they'll keep doing it as long as BOTH RK cares to write for them AND we [readers] keep showing interest for what Dungeon is publishing.
Not liking a new level every year? Don't buy the issue, simple as that. I bet the sales manager of Dungeon will hear that argument loud and clear and pass the message along to Erik.
And some people say Greyhawkers are difficult to please...
Fans of settings like Forgotten Realms and Eberron are less critical because they have as close to a guaranteed supply of new material coming out as it's possible to in this industry. "X of Faurun" not sound too exciting? Don't fret, as "Y of Faerun" is just four short months away. The average Greyhawk fan, on the other hand, is much less certain about the setting's future (as to whether it will ever see a real, honest-to-God game book release again, for example) and so they desperately want every new Greyhawk outing to be everything they specifically have ever wanted because they've conditioned themselves to see each one as potentially "The End."
If you could promise us that WotC will be publishing at least three or four big Greyhawk sourcebooks a year every year into the forseeable future, we'd be much less hypercritical of each individual new outing.
Of course, you can hardly do that, hence whining.
... now we will be receiving the level of the quarter which might be well written but to me can actually cheapen the effect of the first article printed in the dungeon magazine.
And did you really need to print all four Greyhawk maps? I mean, Northeast, Northwest, Southeast and Southwest? Wasn't Northeast enough? It got tiresome.
Me, I'm thrilled at the prospects of new levels for Maure. I never played the original and loved #112; it's one of the few Dungeons issues I own. Now they'll suck me back for another, and maybe I'll like what I see enough to subscribe. This is not a bad thing.
Will it get dull eventually? Quite possibly. But as noted, the salespeople will probably notice and they'll stop. Or maybe Mr. Kuntz will get bored and stop on his own. Until then, I'm happy to read what he's got.
. . . .I just expect more because I'm a GH fan.
Some of the largest, most complex modules are set in Greyhawk (TOEE, Castle Greyhawk, etc). I think it's about time for a new one. :D
My only problem with printing levels in Dungeon is the wait between issues. If it were packaged as one big book (which EM has alluded to in passing over at the Paizo boards as a wish project), it may affect peoples perspective on the subject.
If you could promise us that WotC will be publishing at least three or four big Greyhawk sourcebooks a year every year into the forseeable future, we'd be much less hypercritical of each individual new outing.
History doesn't support that claim. Greyhawk 98 gave a short lived, but steady stream of product, that the Greyhawk fan community ripped to shreds.
Same for the products promised and delivered for 3e Greyhawk/LG.
Greyhawk fans are overly critical by nature, it's a fact all interested parties at WotC and Paizo, not the least of which is Erik, know all too well.
It speaks partly to the quality of product the setting had eaerly on. It's difficult, in fans' minds, to top the Folio, 83 boxed set and classic Greyhawk adventures. Other settings, especially Eberron, don't have that legacy, so their fans are still in the wide eyed kid in the toy store mode. Give them time, they'll become right proper cranky grognards like us eventually.
Greyhawk 98 gave a short lived, but steady stream of product, that the Greyhawk fan community ripped to shreds.
Well, of course, this is assuming that we're talking about good material, like Maure Castle. I don't think you can call much of the garbage TSR coughed-out in its death throes good.
Same for the products promised and delivered for 3e Greyhawk/LG.
The LGG has been highly-regarded by most fans I know. RttToEE reviews were mixed, but mostly because it contradicted canon in a few controversial ways. I wouldn't say either was "ripped to shreds."
People who don't like LG mostly don't like the concept or the play environment, not the adventures put out for it, in my experience.
. . . . .Greyhawk fans are overly critical by nature. . . .
I wholeheartedly agree!!!
I think it also has to do with the quality of some people's first experiences, as well as not wanting those early experiences to be redefined by later authors.
Well, of course, this is assuming that we're talking about good material, like Maure Castle. I don't think you can call much of the garbage TSR coughed-out in its death throes good.
Aha, I'm dealing with Moore hating Kuntz fans. Gotcha. I'll make sure further posts reflect that.
In my mind, Greyhawk fans are factionalized and the various factions have agendas which are promoted by nit-picking that which the faction does not favor. This is not to dismiss poor editing, obvious padding etc. of products but is rather addressed to "opinion complaints" usually expressed more as simple "likes or dislikes" rather than any searching critique of the product as a game product.
Yet. Everyone bought those products, even those who compain about them, as is demonstrated often enough when debates become more detailed. It is merely "faction fashion" to say "I won't buy it" or "I didn't buy it."
Bottom line - Greyhawk fans buy Greyhawk, even if they do then complain. The IP holder makes money, complaint or no complaint. Complaints are then irrelevant to the publisher as long as the money rolls in.
As I understand it, Greyhawk 98 sold very well for the time and a non-Realms line. It was killed for other business reasons, not for too small sales figures.
Any publisher who would not produce product because of complaining fans, when the money is still rolling in, can't, IMO, see the trees for the forest. Money talks; complaints on message boards walk.
IMO
Aha, I'm dealing with Moore hating Kuntz fans. Gotcha.
You're weird, man.
As I understand it, Greyhawk 98 sold very well for the time and a non-Realms line. It was killed for other business reasons, not for too small sales figures.
Looking back at GH 98 - whatever about the content (*so* not getting into that quagmire; muttermutter doomgrinder = clockwork apocalypse engine muttermutter :mad
- the presentation and art could have been a whole lot better. While the cover art on the Player's Guide was good, that standard wasn't maintained in the rest of the series (case in point: The Adventure Begins, which is cringey). The same criticism was levelled (rightly) at the LGG - great content, rubbish art.Now, I know that most GHers would buy a GH supplement written with a magic marker on toilet paper, and that substance should always come ahead of style, but if you're a company trying to expand a niche audience, cutting corners on visual production values (esp. in the golden age of the computer game) is not the way to go about it. Your casual gamer in the store is more likely to go for the flashy colour product with the evocative, atmospheric art than the worthy but plain product with the doodlings from the artist's sketchpad. It would have been nice, even if they never did another GH supplement, if WotC had applied "Toolsheds of Faerun" production values to the LGG.
P.