On the barren world of Athas, magical power comes from a number of sources. Defilers and preservers draw energy from plants, and hence from the life force of Athas itself. Dragons, as well as some artifacts (like the Staff of Nok) draw energy directly from living creatures. Sadira learned to draw her power from the Sun, the starting point for all life on Athas.
Would it be a stretch for me to speculate that - in the Dark Sun universe - magic is the "stuff" of life itself? The reason I'm wondering is this - would it be possible for a spellcaster to draw upon his own life-force in order to weave magic? I know that some spellcasters learn to draw upon different planes (such as the Grey and the Black, whatever those are), but I want to limit this to the "Material" plane for purposes of this discussion.
What about Avangions? I figure they wouldn't defile, since they're the ultimate good guys. Anybody have any idea where they get their power from? I know they are former preservers, but I'm sure they've found a more complete source of power than the dying world on which they live.
Answers, anybody?
Avangions generate their own spell energy, the same way that psionics generate their own PP. They are sources of pure life energy, drawing from no external source. All their power comes from within.
Cool. Any reason why an arcane spellcaster couldn't learn to do the same without becoming an Avangion?
The ability to become a font of life energy (and replace the need for any external source of spellcasting energy) would be a part of the PrC, just like dragon magic is a part of the dragon PrC.
Also, the Leech PrC is currently the only class that uses one's own life energy to help in spellcasting, although the caster still needs an external source of energy, as his own energy is used only to boost his spells; it does not replace plant life energy.
In a different way, the Grove Master PrC allows for the druid to replace a defiler's defiling radius with his own hps.
They actually change themselves to the point that they break the laws of physics by generating energy from nowhere.
In RaFoaDK, the Champions (or at least Hamanu) can do so as well, probably a characteristic of the Champion template. Its related to their life force being immortal: it keeps regenerating, unlike a mortal's. A mortal who would try to drain himself would die from it, while a Champion won't, and will be able to keep draining again and again after some time has passed.
Of course, I also tend to have crazy ideas like them making a connection to the past, researching what the land once was, and how to possibly bring it back, by spending a while skipping around in time and space.
;)If you are a Dragon, you might want to get hold of a lower level Avangion instead of a Tree of Life...
They are a more portable wellspring of energy...
Soooooo........
If you are a Dragon, you might want to get hold of a lower level Avangion instead of a Tree of Life...
They are a more portable wellspring of energy...
But the Dragon could never force the Avangion to provide that kind of power, and odds are, that the Avangion and Dragon would fight, rather than cooperate. I've always seen that the two are diametrically opposed. Further, the Avangion has enough power for himself, and limited ability to send that out to stop a Defiler from defiling. I never said that it could stop a Dragon's life-drain from creatures, or that a Dragon would even be capable of doing that kind of a drain on an Avangion.
Please, be aware, this is my own view, not necessarily the views of the Epic Bureau.
I agree with Xlor that an Avangion is very unlikely to help a dragon or be its portable battery.
But the Dragon could never force the Avangion to provide that kind of power, and odds are, that the Avangion and Dragon would fight, rather than cooperate.
What about Mind Seed?
Or some other mind controlling power or spell?
What about Mind Seed?
Or some other mind controlling power or spell?
Unless Avangions, being paragons of magical and psionic power are permanently shielded from such things. When thinking along the lines of balancing Avangions and Dragons, bear in mind that Dragons gain physical advantages in conjunction with their psionic and magical ability, Avangions, on the other hand, become physically quite weak and frail, but gain more magical and psionic power to compensate for it. Avangions have all kinds of defenses to protect themselves from magical or psionic attack (higher SR/PR, Immunity from most lower-level spells/powers), and are actually better at defending themselves from physical attack than a Dragon (higher Damage Reduction that is more difficult to overcome, Permanent flying movement with perfect maneuverability). Not to mention their various aura effects that are a form of "active" defense mechanisms, and a number of permanent spell-like and/or psi-like abilities to draw from (possibly being quickened as well, I'd say). If anything, an Avangion should be able to defend themselves quite well against an equal-level Dragon. Their disadvantage being that physically, they really can't do much.
"I become a freakin' butterfly?! YeeeAAAARRRRRRG!!"
Heh, heh, heh... :angelhide
I just remember when one of my players finally became an avangion to fight a rival dragon. He was so happy until he saw what happened in the later stages.
"I become a freakin' butterfly?! YeeeAAAARRRRRRG!!"
Heh, heh, heh... :angelhide
I'm also of the belief that the Avangion effectively doesn't get the full bang for the buck, until the final stage. Basically, a Stage-1 through Stage-9 Dragon will mop the floor with an equal-stage Avangion. But Stage-10 Avangions are on par with and a total matchup against a Stage-10 Dragon (mainly because much of their defensive abilities don't come into full swing until then).
And yea, it's always funny when people first realize that an Avangion is a giant glowing magical butterfly.
Yeah, the transformation is what would allow them to generate their own magical energy, rather than drawing it from plants. All other spellcasters have to draw from an external source. An Avangion alone is an actual source of arcane energies, drawing from no external source. The ultimate culmination of the Preserver path, taking in no energy yet generating it internally. They actually change themselves to the point that they break the laws of physics by generating energy from nowhere.
I dont think its from no where, but rather, they generate it over time.. like how they absorb energy a tiny bit from plants, and that energy retores itself.. with the energy they get from themselves and from further castings of the metamorphosis, the energy just builds up.. like a battery... and yes I think it could be used to protect and restore desemated athasian lands.
In RaFoaDK, the Champions (or at least Hamanu) can do so as well, probably a characteristic of the Champion template. Its related to their life force being immortal: it keeps regenerating, unlike a mortal's. A mortal who would try to drain himself would die from it, while a Champion won't, and will be able to keep draining again and again after some time has passed.
I think that's more to do with a regenerative ability the champions have.. Borys had what, 10 hp a round regenerated?? even if you do damage yourself in casting.. who cares if its restored in a few minutes?? and with the hp the dragons have.. they have lots of hp to go before lacking energy..
I personally believe that part of the Avangion process is to have a deeper understanding of Trees of Life, and then attempting to, on a smaller scale, duplicate the effect, so that the Avangion becomes it's own wellspring of power. Also, this in turn could possibly be used so that an Avangion can substitute their own energy to prevent a defiler from destroying the land, as well as potentially (at stage 10) be able to restore the energy stolen from the land, revitalizing it.
Of course, I also tend to have crazy ideas like them making a connection to the past, researching what the land once was, and how to possibly bring it back, by spending a while skipping around in time and space.
I think there's merit to the idea, but an Avangion should be just as far beyond a tree of life, as a human is beyond a tree branch... far more complex.. much more capable.. I'd like an avangion to have a special link to the life force or Global Druid Spirit of Athas..
I think someone said it earlier, but I'll say it again, Avangions are even more potent psionically than dragons are (no rage and all) in fact, I wouldn't mind it if psichic warriors weren't enough to be Avangions.. especially since avangions don't have the martial bent dragons do.. I'd be fine if they required 9th level psion powers too.. after all, in my view, an avangion won't tackle a dragon in physical, "or" magical combat.. its magic would be used to prevent a restore a dragon's magic.. but an avangion should go mind to mind with the wicked dragon.. I think that's the weak spot dragons have 'in comparison'...
Well I have always thought of the Avangion in this manner. Instead of 'creating' it's own energy the Avangion draws its energy from the environment and other living beings, but not in the harmful way that a Dragon does.
Of course this would also mean that if you wadded up an Avangion into an "Epic Shoe Box of Imprisonment" and dropped it in the Grey, they would be relatively powerless.
Have you ever had on of those watches that would power itself with the use of kinetic energy (ie motion), but would totally die on you if you left it sitting on your dresser?
Well I have always thought of the Avangion in this manner. Instead of 'creating' it's own energy the Avangion draws its energy from the environment and other living beings, but not in the harmful way that a Dragon does.
Of course this would also mean that if you wadded up an Avangion into an "Epic Shoe Box of Imprisonment" and dropped it in the Grey, they would be relatively powerless.
and if Rajaat had all the powers of a dragon and avangion as magic was concerned, then he would be just as powerless that way...
This would make the Avangion like a large capacitor, storing energy harmlessly, and just as dependent on life energy as a dragon.. maybe a balancing factor.. maybe not.. I thought of dragons as the ultimate carnivore, the ultimate leech.. and preserver Avangions as the opposite, producing energy...
I think there's merit to the idea, but an Avangion should be just as far beyond a tree of life, as a human is beyond a tree branch... far more complex.. much more capable.. I'd like an avangion to have a special link to the life force or Global Druid Spirit of Athas..
Oh, they are definitely more complex. While I'm against the idea of them being connected to a "global Druid Spirit of Athas", they definitely have more complexity than just a Tree of Life. However, complexity, doesn't necessarily mean more brute power. A Tree of Life has more energy to draw from than an Avangion. The Avangion just has a lot more flexibility, and many other avenues to use the power they contain.
I think someone said it earlier, but I'll say it again, Avangions are even more potent psionically than dragons are (no rage and all) in fact, I wouldn't mind it if psichic warriors weren't enough to be Avangions.. especially since avangions don't have the martial bent dragons do.. I'd be fine if they required 9th level psion powers too.. after all, in my view, an avangion won't tackle a dragon in physical, "or" magical combat.. its magic would be used to prevent a restore a dragon's magic.. but an avangion should go mind to mind with the wicked dragon.. I think that's the weak spot dragons have 'in comparison'...
Personally, I want to leave the same basic requirements for an Avangion as there ar for a Dragon. The exception being that any Wizard could go down the Dragon path - even a Preserver (even though, I'd say that the inherent energies needed for becoming a Dragon, and their method of casting spells, that Preserver will quickly corrupt into becoming a Defiler). An Avangion, however, would need to be a Preserver only, and must be very, very careful about not defiling, or else they lose all their development/power as an Avangion, and must start over from scratch (no way to "redeem" oneself and continue where they left off). Now, up until Stage 10, I'd say that the Avangion mainly subconsciously is drawing very little energy from all living things around them, while their own internal power well is rather weakened. This, in effect, makes them still limited by the terrain, as an Avangion could be rather powerless in a Salt Flat (or Obsidian Plain). However, even then, they can attempt to draw from themselves the energy needed - but their spellcasting will be weaker than normal (lowered spellcaster level). However, at Stage-10, the Avangion surges with energy, and no longer has this restriction.
Now, I do believe that an Avangion should be sort of like a psionic battery - possibly with a greatly increased psionic power point reserve than normal (maybe double or more) - reflecting their advanced psionic potential. Psychic Warriors, while they could become Avangions, really wouldn't find it all that great for them - as most of the Psychic Warrior powers influence martial/melee combat/physical power. And the Avangion weakens physically considerably. As such, the path of the Psychic Warrior wouldn't be the best choice to become an Avangion. However, that shouldn't stop the choice from being there in the first place.
Have you ever had on of those watches that would power itself with the use of kinetic energy (ie motion), but would totally die on you if you left it sitting on your dresser?
Well I have always thought of the Avangion in this manner. Instead of 'creating' it's own energy the Avangion draws its energy from the environment and other living beings, but not in the harmful way that a Dragon does.
Of course this would also mean that if you wadded up an Avangion into an "Epic Shoe Box of Imprisonment" and dropped it in the Grey, they would be relatively powerless.
I have worked with that idea for Stages 1 - 9 for Avangions. Stage 10 however, they finally get over it.
Oh, they are definitely more complex. While I'm against the idea of them being connected to a "global Druid Spirit of Athas", they definitely have more complexity than just a Tree of Life. However, complexity, doesn't necessarily mean more brute power. A Tree of Life has more energy to draw from than an Avangion. The Avangion just has a lot more flexibility, and many other avenues to use the power they contain.
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I think that was perhaps the wrong way to explain what I was thinking.. If you ever read the Nomad Series (by Simon Hawke I think?)
Nutshell.. main character has many personalities with lots of psionic powers..
the avangion in that story needed many of the personalities, including one of the personalities, which represented the natural side of athas it self.. that personality could commune with the beasts of athas.. and was in tune with nature itself..
Connecting with the planet in that way is more what I am thinking of.. granting the Avangion an innate sense or feeling for the life around it.. (I also liked how in RaFoaDK Hamannu could feel the life of the creatures around him and the planet underneath his feet) I'm thinking of a sort of vague impressionary sense of an areas wellbeing.. not as an entire planet, but more as for certain areas.. kind of like sensing the health of a patch of athas.. I'd think a druid could have a similar sense at high levels.. sort of in the way a swimmer is in touch with the curents of the water or the temperature and speed of the wind...
Something more along the lines of an empathic sense... that's as close a tie as I'd want with the land and its spirits.. but that may be more divine sounding than is appropriate for an arcane AB.
I have worked with that idea for Stages 1 - 9 for Avangions. Stage 10 however, they finally get over it.
not a bad idea, I'd go with rather than a stage ten I'd have the ability start when the Aura comes into play... as a representation of that accumulated energy.. having it grow to perfection and completion at stage ten..
not a bad idea, I'd go with rather than a stage ten I'd have the ability start when the Aura comes into play... as a representation of that accumulated energy.. having it grow to perfection and completion at stage ten..
I was simplifying. The power does grow as the charactdr progresses, but at a reduced effect. As I stated before, I prefer that up till stage 10, the Avangion is weaker than a Dragon in many ways.
I think that was perhaps the wrong way to explain what I was thinking.. If you ever read the Nomad Series (by Simon Hawke I think?)
I have 2 of the 3 books in that series. Honestly, I was rather revolted by the gross alterations he did to the setting, that I use very little from his series. However, for you Simon Hawke fans, I had in my personal Avangion write-up that an Avangion basically absorbs the stored magical energies found in artifacts to supplement what a Dragon does with life-energy, and it helps build the energy wellspring within them.
Nutshell.. main character has many personalities with lots of psionic powers..
the avangion in that story needed many of the personalities, including one of the personalities, which represented the natural side of athas it self.. that personality could commune with the beasts of athas.. and was in tune with nature itself..
See, that's something I have problems with. Basically, it tries to cross the boundaries between Druids and Preservers, which shouldn't be crossed. Druids are no more inclined to help a Preserver than a Defiler - they both are Wizards, and steal life energies from other beings. And, for the most part, I see them more or less steriotyping Wizards in general by the actions of the most obvious ones - the Defilers. Now, dealing with individuals, they must overcome their initial steriotypes, then possibly recognize the difference between the two. Oronis does have a Druid who kinda "watches over him" - but the individual's a Pyreen, and Oronis isn't exactly aware, or at least showing that he is aware of this individual.
Connecting with the planet in that way is more what I am thinking of.. granting the Avangion an innate sense or feeling for the life around it.. (I also liked how in RaFoaDK Hamannu could feel the life of the creatures around him and the planet underneath his feet) I'm thinking of a sort of vague impressionary sense of an areas wellbeing.. not as an entire planet, but more as for certain areas.. kind of like sensing the health of a patch of athas.. I'd think a druid could have a similar sense at high levels.. sort of in the way a swimmer is in touch with the curents of the water or the temperature and speed of the wind...
Ahh, but I have plans for Spirits of the Land, that produces a sort of communal/collective mind which they become part of - not a single entity, but communities of Druids who have achieved the transformation and attached themselves to one of the original Spirits of the Land that the four main elements made a pact with. I'd not want to give the same kind of connection for Avangions, who by their nature, would most likely be individual beings.
Something more along the lines of an empathic sense... that's as close a tie as I'd want with the land and its spirits.. but that may be more divine sounding than is appropriate for an arcane AB.
Yep, definitely belongs more in a Divine AB. Avangions are attempting to revitalize the world, and are the yin to the dragons' yang (or is that the other way around, I can't remember which is which). The two should have many things similar in their processes, but resulting in two radically different beings. However, just as how extreme opposites in the real world resemble each other in certian ways, so too, I feel, Dragons and Avangions should be. As such, those ways I think should include a sort of isolationism - where the Avangion and Dragon both are solitary beings, rather than communal. Sure, they can work with others, but for probably different reasons, they prefer working alone when possible. Dragons seem to be rather jealous of their power, and don't like the possibility of being too close too others of equal power as their own - a sort of strong greed. Avangions, out of a sense of needing to protect others, I feel would tend to want to keep their presense relatively unknown, and the best way for them to achieve this is to only ket a very small group know of their existence (swear that group to secrecy), or remain completely hidden.
See, that's something I have problems with. Basically, it tries to cross the boundaries between Druids and Preservers, which shouldn't be crossed. Druids are no more inclined to help a Preserver than a Defiler - they both are Wizards, and steal life energies from other beings. And, for the most part, I see them more or less steriotyping Wizards in general by the actions of the most obvious ones - the Defilers. Now, dealing with individuals, they must overcome their initial steriotypes, then possibly recognize the difference between the two. Oronis does have a Druid who kinda "watches over him" - but the individual's a Pyreen, and Oronis isn't exactly aware, or at least showing that he is aware of this individual.
Ahh, but I have plans for Spirits of the Land, that produces a sort of communal/collective mind which they become part of - not a single entity, but communities of Druids who have achieved the transformation and attached themselves to one of the original Spirits of the Land that the four main elements made a pact with. I'd not want to give the same kind of connection for Avangions, who by their nature, would most likely be individual beings.
Druids 'could' stereotype wizards, if they are unaware of preservers.. I think that any who did know might not agree with the style of the Veiled Alliance, but they should recognise a preservers ability to use magic restricted to preservers and appropriate clerical types, that actually restores an area that has been defiled.. (did that spell resurface in 3.5??) If you want your druids to dislike all wizards that's fine, I'd consider it a style of play for Athas rather than a constant in most games, but that's just me.. others may see it your way more often..
This comment on the AB Druid Spirits of the Land is interesting.. care to make a thread and expand on that? I'd love to hear your ideas..
I think that was perhaps the wrong way to explain what I was thinking.. If you ever read the Nomad Series (by Simon Hawke I think?)
Nutshell.. main character has many personalities with lots of psionic powers..
the avangion in that story needed many of the personalities, including one of the personalities, which represented the natural side of athas it self.. that personality could commune with the beasts of athas.. and was in tune with nature itself..
Connecting with the planet in that way is more what I am thinking of.. granting the Avangion an innate sense or feeling for the life around it.. (I also liked how in RaFoaDK Hamannu could feel the life of the creatures around him and the planet underneath his feet) I'm thinking of a sort of vague impressionary sense of an areas wellbeing.. not as an entire planet, but more as for certain areas.. kind of like sensing the health of a patch of athas.. I'd think a druid could have a similar sense at high levels.. sort of in the way a swimmer is in touch with the curents of the water or the temperature and speed of the wind...
Something more along the lines of an empathic sense... that's as close a tie as I'd want with the land and its spirits.. but that may be more divine sounding than is appropriate for an arcane AB.
I think that the book was written like this due to some of the old requirements for an Avangion during its progression.
The Avangion needed to have a certain number of "champions", for lack of a better word, with a certain number of HD. Now I am going off of memory at this point b/c my Dragon Kings book is at home.
I think that Simon Hawke was using the multiple personalities- which were in fact the consciousness of the Avangion's old tribe trapped within the mind of the main character- as the champions needed to complete the Avangion's next stage.
Lots of people like that trilogy and that might cause friction on the boards.
Please use lighter language, and throw in IMO (In My Opinion) just to make sure.
;)
Just asking b/c it was brought up with the Avangion and how it powers it's spells.
I also have to ask what RaFoaDK is? I own every Dark Sun product that was produced and I cannot for the life of me figure this out. It has been one of "those" dayz.
I also have to ask what RaFoaDK is? I own every Dark Sun product that was produced and I cannot for the life of me figure this out. It has been one of "those" dayz.
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King....
novel about the life and times of Hamanu
due to problems between TSR novels and RPG groups had some pretty massive inconsitencies...... And is therefor not considered cannon by many.
I know that this is semi-unrelated to this current discussion but where is the new info on trees of life and the creation of such items?
Just asking b/c it was brought up with the Avangion and how it powers it's spells.
Both are in Terrors of the Dead Lands.
You're threading on thin ice, Vortexa, with language like that.
Lots of people like that trilogy and that might cause friction on the boards.
Please use lighter language, and throw in IMO (In My Opinion) just to make sure.
;)
thin ice, perhaps... I dont' really care, like it, or not :P I'm all about style over rules any day.. as long as it keeps the theme and doesn't go overboard.. I think I've read all the periferal books but only parts of the actual (cannon) main streem books.. whatever is all I can say
I liked both ;) if someone else has their preferences, big deal, it is after all, just a game eh?
oh, side comment, more on lines with the thread.. sorta.. I think a balancing factor between dragons and avangions is that an avangion can't stop a dragon from also draining it for the dragons spells.. (barring special spells, its not an ability the avangion has) so in combat, the avangion could be the battery for itself and its apponent.. (another reason they should be psionic giants in comparison)
I totally think an avangion should produce its own energy, just enough to power its own spells.. that way.. any energy it uses, is unrelated to the state of its surroundings.. therefore, it 'can' help to restore athas.. by putting back more than it took..