I don't have WotI, no-one seems to want to sell it on ebay, but it seems as if almost everyone accepts that at the end of it Alfheim becomes Aengmor and is under Shadow Elf control.
BUT - every Gazetteer points out that in 1200 the Desert Nomads invade, including the Alfheim Gaz.
An elf campaign including WotI is almost certain to be still going in 1200 - the elves won't even have reached middle age yet!
Has anyone played this? Do the elves re-take Alfheim and repair the magic? Do they come to an accomodation with the Shadow Elves?
If they don't, how do they interact with the other forces in 1200?
Or do we just conclude that if you accept the WotI conclusions, you are stuffed when it comes to using X10?
I don't have the X10 ESD yet, but I assume their is also an Alphatian involvement? If so, this means WotI has probably made the module unuseable, which affects all the Gaz entries that mention it.
How do you all play this?
How does this actually play? It seems as if there is a massive amount of activity in a short period of time, especially if you include X10, and only the DM knows the whole picture.
Do the players get frustrated knowing that there are "big important things" going on that they aren't a part of, or do you give them a running "News from the Nations" update every so often?
In WotI there is a suggestion to predate X10 rigth into the WotI timeline between Fall/winter 1005 and spring/summer 1006 before Alfheim is conquered by the shadow elves.
OTOH, it is possible that the scenario will still repeat itself in AC1200. There have also been other indications that Alfheim will eventually be restored. Perhaps, by the time of AC1200, the Known World will have returned more or less to the situation it was in in AC1000, at least sufficiently enough to run the X10 scenario?
Alphatia is not mentioned in X10 AFAIK.
Håvard
OTOH, it is possible that the scenario will still repeat itself in AC1200. There have also been other indications that Alfheim will eventually be restored. Perhaps, by the time of AC1200, the Known World will have returned more or less to the situation it was in in AC1000, at least sufficiently enough to run the X10 scenario?
Alphatia is not mentioned in X10 AFAIK.
Håvard
That would make a really good elven campaign - restoring the elves to Alfheim without a pitched war against the Shadow Elves, just in time to run the X10 scenario!
Ahh, thanks Lonewolf, I wasn't aware of that. I have GOT to find a way to get the WotI set! I don't suppose anyone has a copy they want to sell?
Mine's sitting at home on a shelf at my parents' place, gathering dust. I don't want to get rid of it entirely, but I could lend it to you until I need it again.
So I would say that by 1200, people have gotten used to the Shadow Elves' presence enough that Aengmor is tolerated, even if it's generally avoided, so the Shadow Elves just replace the Elves in the scenario. The Shadow Elves could realistically join either side, depending on whether you make them evil or just misunderstood; I favour "misunderstood" cause it fits the Mystaran flavour better, so I think it'd be cool if 200 years from now the Shadow Elves have become part of society to the point that they're part of the alliance against the Master along with everybody else. On the other hand, if the Master really is underpowered in the scenario, putting the Shadow Elves on his side might help to even things up.
Gripping hand is, if you're already changing the scenario to account for the Gazeteers, you could just add more troops to the Master's armies and say that they're from Jaibul or the Yazak Steppes.
Mine's sitting at home on a shelf at my parents' place, gathering dust. I don't want to get rid of it entirely, but I could lend it to you until I need it again.
Thanks for the offer Joe.
If it was one of the smaller modules I'd take you up on it, but with a set this big I really think I need a permanent copy.
Thanks anyway!
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Well, X10 was written way before most of the gazetteers were written and as such features the armies or expeditionary armies of Karameikos, Ylaruam, Glantri, Ierendi, Alfheim, Rockhome, Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord, Five Shires, Minrothad Guilds, Darokin, Ethengar and at least some of the Atruaghin Clans.
But the army lists are not the same as in the gazetteers. And Wendar and Heldann Freeholds are not mentioned if I am not very much mistaken.
AFAIR, there are no army lists for Orcs of Thar in X10, so the Master cannot ally with Broken Lands. The Shadow Elf gaz was published after X10 so they are not included either. The adventure is structured in a way so that it is hard for Ylaruam NOT to ally with the master but most other nations will follow the PCs for few favours that range from the rediculous easy (killing spectres in Five Shires or winning a drinking contest in Ostland) to suicidal (killing a huge green dragon in Alfheim). Ylaruam will ally with the Master because in 1200 AC, supposedly, the Kin Faction is leading the country and they are so fundamentalistic that they favour their desert kin to the west instead of the heathen Known World.
If they PC's succeed in getting the help of the Emperor of Thyatis, they will receive a few legions from there as well, but this is where the timeline really screws up.
The emperor of Thyatis will demand a secret pledge of loyalty in return for his troops. He asks them to go to Norwold and become vasals of King Erical and when the time comes betray him and assist Thyatis in an invasion of Norwold. This is of course to set the PCs up for the CM1 adventure "Test of the Warlords" in which they go to Norwold and get dominions.
But if X10 is set in AC 1200 then Norwold will have been settled 200 years earlier!! So there is a bit of a time paradox there.
You could do a number of things:
1) Set X10 during the WotI and then have the Shadow Elves pick either side to support as you like. The shadow elves are not featured in X10 so you can use them as a "joker" - the same is true of Orcs of Thar.
2) Set X10 in AC 1200 and ignore the request of the emperor of Thyatis - or make him make a similar demand that fits his interests
3) As I do in my campaign: Blend X4, X5 and X10 together in one heroic campaign of you own design in which the PCs first fight out the war and then travel across Sind to kill the Master once his armies have been fought to a standstill but proven undefeatable! :evillaugh
If you need more info on X10 just ask!
You should also check out a thread from about a year ago called "The Philosophy of the Master" or some such. It had great info on the Masters mastermind plan of infiltration and subterfuge leading up to the war!
:-) Jesper
I send the PCs to Hule rigth after the Master invades Sind(actually Rheddarian sends them there, but this is another story :D ) and through Grakhalia(where I will give them an option to help the gnolls and elves and sever the masters reinforcement lines). Once in Hule they will find out that the master has an alien "master strategist" that commands all the armies of the master telepathically(I guess I will actually put an Illithid there, but Im not sure). They will have to find and kill that Master strategist in the Temple of Death, where they will also find strategic plans of the masters armies.
Once they have done that, I will give them an option to teleport back to Darokin where the masters armies will retreat from their siege of Darokin City to regroup. Then I will do the whole X10 thing including fighting the Master in Sind.
I don't have WotI, no-one seems to want to sell it on ebay, but it seems as if almost everyone accepts that at the end of it Alfheim becomes Aengmor and is under Shadow Elf control.
BUT - every Gazetteer points out that in 1200 the Desert Nomads invade, including the Alfheim Gaz.
The original X10 module is set in the "Expert set" version of the Known World. Karameikos is a Grand Duchy, Stefan Karameikos III is the Duke, and he is in his 50s -- so the war happens quite early.
Also the princes of Glantri appear to be the same as in Glantri GAZ.
X10 also happens before CM1 (but not that far from it).
However, the Gazetteers changed many elements -- e.g., the rulers of Glantri are completely different (Jaggar changes from pacifist to warmonger!), and X10 was moved to 1200 AC. This of course forces modifications to the module -- e.g., Stefan cannot be Duke in 1200 AC.
Basically, the GAZ series "stole" the X10 setting, but it removed the war itself.
With WotI, then, there is a second, and more massive, change: the war happens, but not as presented in X10 -- rather, Alphatia is involved as the major opponent to the Thyatis-Glantri-HK league, Ethengar wars on his own against the HK and their northern reaches allies, and the goblinoids of Thar (not considered in X10) are another major foe for Glantri, Darokin, and Rockhome.
The Hulean invasion does occur, but it is not as massive as in X10: mostly because of the presence of Sind as a major buffer zone between Hule and Darokin (in X4-X5-X10, Sind is not a major nation), but also because Hule, invades at the same time Sind and the Savage Baronies.
Between the two, Bruce Heard had introduced the HK, who take the place of the Heldann Freeholds -- while the latter could be ignored as a minor nation, the Heldannic Knights are major players in the KW political and military scenario.
The effects of the Wrath of the Immortals and the Gazetteers are such that X10, as is, will not be really viable in 1200 AC.
As Jesper pointed out, there's no way to keep all of the elements of X10 in any timeframe in the current timeline.
However, to get back to the original question, Alfheim is really the last of the problems. You can either replace Alfheim with Aengmor, assuming that the PCs will only be able to gather a small fraction of the SE forces, or assume that the SE are unavailable (i.e., not willing to deal with the PCs and/or the allied nations), and the elven troops are those associated with Karameikos and Wendar (where most Alfheimer elves moved during WotI).
As a third option, you may also steer things so that by 1200 AC Doriath has led his elves back to Alfheim -- either peacefully or by kicking out the SE. You've got 180 years of adventures to go before X10, so elven PCs may well be able to restore Alfheim.
Still, you will then be faced with the remaining problems, i.e., what are those powers not mentioned in X10 (HK, Orcs, and even Alphatia, after VotPA) doing during the war? Why would the LN Kin faction ally with the CE Huleans (who aren't desert nomads, BTW, they're just using great waste nomads as parts of their armies)?
My take is to ignore the 1200 AC setting -- even though elven characters would be around in 1200 AC, they would be high-level enough to have a major influence on the campaign setting, making Expert modules unsuitable for them (by 1200 AC, they might be on their way to Immortality, if not already Immortal).
I'm reading through GAZ6 today, and am wondering how the dwarves will cope with the elves being replaced by shadow elves. Will they appreciate the seriousness of the SE, or will there will be many dwarves harking back to the "good old days"?
It could make for an interesting change of perspective - "We thought the elves were bad, but this lot are even worse! Come back Doriath, all is forgiven!"
Dwarves missing the elves - whatever next?
I'm reading through GAZ6 today, and am wondering how the dwarves will cope with the elves being replaced by shadow elves. Will they appreciate the seriousness of the SE, or will there will be many dwarves harking back to the "good old days"?
I think so. While some dwarves may appear to be aggressive towards elves, they still have no serious competition (they don't live off the same type of resources). OTOH, the SE and the Dwarves have both interest in the underground and mining, but with completely different goals.
I think some Almanac (PWA or more likely the fan-written Mystaran Almanac, I can't remember right now) has the dwarves compete with both the SE and the goblinoids for Oenkmar.
I think some Almanac (PWA or more likely the fan-written Mystaran Almanac, I can't remember right now) has the dwarves compete with both the SE and the goblinoids for Oenkmar.
PWA 1011, IIRC. Possibly 1012. I think the major conflict is in 1011, though, with its roots going back to 1010.
PWA 1011, IIRC. Possibly 1012. I think the major conflict is in 1011, though, with its roots going back to 1010.
Thanks. I have 1010, with the rest on my wishlist for next month.
Time for some more reading!