Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 katana_one Apr 28, 2005 11:53:20	Official canon for Mystara, specifically the Hollow World boxed set, states that orcs, goblinoids, kobolds, ogres, trolls and giants all decended from the original beastman race of the Blackmoor era. We also know that the beastmen and their descendants are evil souls reincarnated as a form of punishment. But what about the non-evil giant races? Where did they come from? Is there some official canon source that I am unaware of that answers this? I'm thinking that maybe early on, as the beastmen strains were becoming more distinct, that there was a split among these "proto-giants." Maybe a few small clans found redemption and left to establish their own destiny, separate from their irredeemable cousins. This could also be a way to introduce some new giantish Immortals - the heroes who led thier tribes to a better life, free of the tortures of their past lives. Any thoughts on this?
#2 havard Apr 28, 2005 12:12:08	Interesting topic Katana! I had forgotten that the HW boxed set was so specific about this. The Beastiary of Giants and Dragons (AC4?) may have some more information about the creation of Giants, but I don't have it around. The Northern Reaches Gaz does include suggestions that Giants and Trolls hail from a much older race. IMC I have always built on this theory, similar to your thoughts on the matter. Mystaros' Blackmoor Timeline also includes descriptions of older Giantish civilizations that I have also used IMC. IMC the only giants that are descended from the Beastmen are possibly the Hill Giants, who may have some Beastman blood and if you use the 3E definition of Giants; Ogres. Both of these races are results of interbreeding between Beastmen and Giants. The true descendants of the Beastmen IMC were Orcs, Goblins and Hobgoblins. Ogres and Giants have already been mentioned. Gnolls, Bugbears and Minotaurs are the results of Nithian experiments on the goblinoids. Kobolds I'm not so sure about, but (perhaps due to 3E influence), I am tending towards making these descendants of Lizardmen. Perhaps they could be a mix of Lizardmen and Goblins? Giants and Great Trolls are descendants of the Great Giants (or Jotuns) mentioned in the NR Gaz. The Root Trolls (standard D&D Trolls) are a mix of Great Trolls and Goblinoids. Those are my theories. For Canon sources I think the Beastiary of Giants and Dragons and the NR Gaz are the ones you are most likely to find anything on the origin of Giants if any. Cheers! Håvard
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 28, 2005 12:33:36	I've got Bestiary of Dragons and Giants, but I don't recall it having anything to do with the history of giants. It's a collection of adventures with a common theme of either a dragon or a giant in them. Not much to do with the past of either race.
#4 spellweaver Apr 28, 2005 18:06:27	I've got Bestiary of Dragons and Giants, but I don't recall it having anything to do with the history of giants. It's a collection of adventures with a common theme of either a dragon or a giant in them. Not much to do with the past of either race. That is not true. At the end of each adventure is a section detailing the giant or dragon that played a major part in the adventure. E.g. the adventure in the Cloud Giant castle details why Cloud giants had to flee persecution from Fire Giants and live in the clouds and the Mountain Giant adventure details their relationship with the dwarven race. It is a great source of giant info. As I recall, hill giants are related to trolls and ogres, stone giants (being born from eggs!) are a race apart and fire, frost, cloud, storm and mountain giants are "true giants". DM did a post somewhere about which immortals are the patrons of which giant races, I'll see if I can't dig it out, unless he beats me to it :D :-) Jesper
#5 katana_one Apr 28, 2005 18:20:29	I've never really cared too much for most of the contents of AC4, and I do not think of it as canon. I don't automatically consider something canon for Mystara just because it was published under the OD&D brand. I will have to dig out my Northern Reaches GAZ and give it another look, however.
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 29, 2005 2:55:39	AC10, Bestiary of Giants and Dragons gives us some brief informations about a war in the past between Fire, Cloud and MOuntain giants that resulted in the Cloud giants' exodus and creation of their Sky Kingdom. That said, I have always thought that the line from HW Katana1 is quoting refers only to Hill Giants, not the whole giantkin. Hill giants are the smallest and brutest of giants, and they don't share many similarities to other giantkins. On the contrary, they're more similar to ogres. That's why I hypothesized that when the Beastmen started to breed true, they bred into different species according to their original size: Large Beastmen became Trolls, Ogres and Hill Giants Medium Beastmen became Orcs, Bugbears and Hobgoblins Small Beastmen became Kobolds and Goblins Some beastmen may have even become the first lupins, I'm not sure of this.. Later the Nithians created the gnolls mixing magically gnomes and trolls to create a race similar to Pflaar's hutaaka, but they failed miserably. I alsobelieve the thouls were also one of their weird experiments (ghouls + trolls). Minotaurs were not created by Nithians nor spawned by beastmen. According to canon, they're the descendants of cursed Enduks who betrayed and killed Gildesh (the first King of the Enduks, a near-immortal Lammasu-like servant of Ixion), who lost their wings and fled from Nimmur to avoid Idu (Ixion)'s wrath.
#7 katana_one Apr 29, 2005 11:54:52	AC10, Bestiary of Giants and Dragons Um. Of course, I knew it was AC10 (not AC4) all along. I just wanted to see if anyone else would catch that. :embarrass :D
#8 spellweaver Apr 29, 2005 14:16:12	DM did a post somewhere about which immortals are the patrons of which giant races, I'll see if I can't dig it out, unless he beats me to it :D :-) Jesper This is an old thread about giants as a race http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=338865 :-) Jesper