Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 30, 2005 10:03:20	Was wondering if anyone was thinking about either a PrC or template that would apply to these baddies? Considering their power level I would think something epic would be in order. Or just a 5-level PrC or template.
#2 Sysane Apr 30, 2005 10:59:05	Well the Dead Lords are already Kaisharga. Isn't that their "gift" for attaining that post?
#3 terminus_vortexa Apr 30, 2005 12:26:33	It certainly is. "Kaisharga" means "Dead Lord" in High Draxan, and I believe, in ancient Halfling, too.
#4 ruhl-than_sage Apr 30, 2005 15:41:32	It certainly is. "Kaisharga" means "Dead Lord" in High Draxan, and I believe, in ancient Halfling, too. Then why bother with a prestige class?
#5 Pennarin Apr 30, 2005 18:15:00	They're called Spirit Lords, guys, and their power is not being kaishargas but being the only creatures able to dispatch the banshees of Jo'orsh and Sa'ram. Borys clearly says that himself, and anyone else for that matter, can't kill those undead, and that the kaishargas were created specifically for the day when the banshees can be destroyed. It seems Borys' Spirit Lords are the only beings able to kill those banshees. This is good for a PrC. The following is what I wrote down a long time ago: Initially, the Banshees create a curse using the Lens so that no one can tell where the Lens is, or even where the Banshees are, as long as the Banshees are still alive and in close proximity to the Lens. When they go too far from it, the SKs become able to track them and send Spirit Lords to kill them and extract the Lens' location. As soon as the Banshees die, the Spirit Lords are free to report the Lens' location to their master without dying from the curse, which has been lifted the moment of the Banshees' death. Possible abilities: - Can destroy even those undead - like the dwarven banshees - that can reform themselves after being destroyed. Death at their hands is permanent. Those undead destroyed by Spirit Lords see their bodies being annihilated and cannot be raised, resurected, spoken to with speak with dead, nor can they reform themselves if they have that ability. - While they destroy one of the banshees, they use speak with dead (or something similar) to learn where is, and who has, the Lens. That spell-like ability, compared to the spell, Works on still living undead though. - They have to have some form of immunity to other undeads, cause if they didn't the banshees would have destroyed them instead of quietly enduring their fate. It certainly is. "Kaisharga" means "Dead Lord" in High Draxan, and I believe, in ancient Halfling, too. This is weird. Kaisharga means "undead" in ancient halfling. Never heard of a special meaning to it in Draxan...
#6 terminus_vortexa Apr 30, 2005 19:58:15	I could be confused on the Draxan meaning. I'll check the books and post what I find later. As for the Spirit Lords, is a prestige class really necessary, or could they just be especially high-level templar-class Kaishargas? When I read the books and came across the passage where Borys says only the Spirit Lords can kill the Banshees, the first thought that came to my mind was a high-level clerical ability like Turn/Destroy Undead, or maybe a high-level cleric spell like Miracle. Although, prestige class could be cool.
#7 zombiegleemax May 01, 2005 0:50:59	Except not all of the dead lords/spirit lords are templars. They come from a wide range of classes, from psion to templar to rogue to fighter and gladiator.
#8 Pennarin May 01, 2005 2:43:20	Mmm, we might be going around this the wrong way. From discussions with Epic Bureau people, it seems a lot of the stuff "unexplainable" with 3E rules will be made possible through epic spells that make it happen. This could be one: an epic spell confering the spirit lord template. But as written, even high-level banshees have nothing special about them that would make the Dragon send kaishargas to destroy them, instead of killing them himself. After all, Borys is, with Dregoth, the most powerful being on the planet, so if he sends spirit lords to do what he can't, then we have to make the banshees more than just high-level banshees, making the entire matter justified. After defining Jo'orsh and Sa'ram as iconic beings in par with the Champions, and giving them template abilities - maybe a link to the Dark Lens -, we can figure out what makes them unkillable by the Dragon or anyone else but killable by his Spirit Lords. One step at a time.
#9 terminus_vortexa May 01, 2005 10:11:02	Except not all of the dead lords/spirit lords are templars. They come from a wide range of classes, from psion to templar to rogue to fighter and gladiator. I think we're using different terms for different things. Kaishargas , which Borys used as his inner circle, could come from any class. In my previous post, the Spirit Lords I was referring to were not that group of advisers as a whole, I was only referring to the oned who were used to destroy the Banshees, then further speculating on how they could go about doing so. :D
#10 terminus_vortexa May 01, 2005 10:15:00	I just opened up Dragon Kings and the Prism Pentad to clarify things, for my own edification and to make communication on the topic more streamlined. Dead Lords refers to Borys' inner circle of Kaisharga advisors and subordinates. Spirit Lords, the term from the Prism Pentad, refers specifically to those Kaisharga who were used to kill the Banshees.
#11 terminus_vortexa May 01, 2005 19:02:31	Also, according to Valley of Dust and Fire, , Tsai=Clan, and Tsaisharga=Clan Lord in High Draxan, I would like to confirm a statement in my previous post where I said Kaisharga means Dead Lord in High Draxan.
#12 Pennarin May 01, 2005 20:56:39	Cool, so it could mean draxan is an offshoot of ancient halfling, meaning the entire draxan culture, and its language, could be constucts of Borys.
#13 terminus_vortexa May 01, 2005 21:39:15	I'm all for that line of thought. :D
#14 Pennarin May 02, 2005 6:54:33	Cap'n Nick, do you agree or not about what I wrote in post #8?
#15 Pennarin May 03, 2005 22:52:00	A brainstorm came up with this: Here is one reasoning that makes it so the Spirit Lords do not need a special template or PrC (although an anti-undead PrC, with some of the characteristics I mentionned above, would be good): The broken focus of the dwarves - what made them banshees – is amplified by the Dark Lens, since the dwarves became banshees while in its possession, and they are eternally linked to it. Anyone that was linked to the Lens before the dwarves became banshees – Champions, and by extension, their servant templars - cannot mend the broken focus and dismiss the banshees. Since the Spirit Lords were created after the banshees took hold of the Lens, and are not templars (thus have no link to the Champions), they can effect the banshees. Using this line of thought, anyone linked to the Lens trying to fulfill the broken focus of the banshees simply fails. (Think of Hamanu and the Scourge: any Champion created after the sword was created is immune to its powers.)
#16 ruhl-than_sage May 05, 2005 9:26:08	There can always be special plot considerations that put limitation on the game that aren't specifically outlined in the rules. It may be that they can are the only ones who can kill the banshees because of who or what they know the are rather than their prestige class, also many people exaggerate maybe Borys more accurately should have said "These are the only people I know who have a reasonable chance of killing the Banshees".
#17 Pennarin May 05, 2005 11:38:15	I've looked about 20 pages back and 10 forward, from page 204, but can't find the reference I want. That of page 204 will have to do: "Perhaps I can't destroy you, but there are those who can", Borys hissed. And a few lines later: "Destroy me or not", said Jo'orsh. "The Dark Lens will remain hidden." "Not from my lords!" Borys's hands shot up and pushed the banshee back toward the submerged lava channel. "Take him, my kaisharga!" The above references are not really those I want, because they refer more to the curse of the Lens than to the invulnerability of the banshees. (The curse is that the Champions are prevented from ever learning the position of the Lens. The spirit lords can kill the banshees, extract the information, and since the banshees have been destroyed their curse is now lifted, and the lords can tell Borys where the Lens is without incuring the instant death of their master.)
#18 squidfur- May 05, 2005 21:40:21	The above references are not really those I want, because they refer more to the curse of the Lens than to the invulnerability of the banshees. (The curse is that the Champions are prevented from ever learning the position of the Lens. The spirit lords can kill the banshees, extract the information, and since the banshees have been destroyed their curse is now lifted, and the lords can tell Borys where the Lens is without incuring the instant death of their master.) The curse is described in the Obsidian Oracle when Tythian is conversing with Andropinis (p 46-47). The effect is that it kills the messanger. So it would be the spirit lords themselves, not their master who would be killed. So, might it be that the spirit lords can obtain the information and tell Borys, simply because they are already dead (ie. being killed by the dwarves' curse wouldn't affect them much - you know - can't kill whats already dead).
#19 Pennarin May 06, 2005 1:04:09	Sorry for the twist in my memory. Its effectively the messenger that dies if it tries to tell a Champion. Now your undead idea is pretty good, except the first thing Dregoth would have done after rising from the dead would have been to find the Lens and become the next Rajaat...
#20 squidfur- May 06, 2005 3:01:43	Sorry for the twist in my memory. Its effectively the messenger that dies if it tries to tell a Champion. Now your undead idea is pretty good, except the first thing Dregoth would have done after rising from the dead would have been to find the Lens and become the next Rajaat... Except that the curse was made to prevent the Champions from finding it. Dregoth is still a Champion. Right?
#21 Pennarin May 06, 2005 3:06:44	Dregoth is an undead version of who he was, with all strings still attached. The only side effect that I can tell of his undead state is that the Dragon Metamorphosis spells require a living recipient to be cast upon.
#22 squidfur- May 08, 2005 20:36:22	Dregoth is an undead version of who he was, with all strings still attached. The only side effect that I can tell of his undead state is that the Dragon Metamorphosis spells require a living recipient to be cast upon. Right, so that's my point exactly. As a Champion, Dregoth would still be prevented from ever finding the Dark Lens - undead or not. So, take it that the spirit lords CAN find it because : 1) they are NOT Champions, nor do they have any connection with the Dark Lens. and 2) they are undead, so "normal" death does not effect them. Therefore the curse should have no effect. Plus they've been "pumped up" with much of Borys's power, so they can go toe to toe with the two banshees (where weaker undead would surely fail). Still interested to see ideas on this: Mmm, we might be going around this the wrong way. But as written, even high-level banshees have nothing special about them that would make the Dragon send kaishargas to destroy them, instead of killing them himself. After all, Borys is, with Dregoth, the most powerful being on the planet, so if he sends spirit lords to do what he can't, then we have to make the banshees more than just high-level banshees, making the entire matter justified. After defining Jo'orsh and Sa'ram as iconic beings in par with the Champions, and giving them template abilities - maybe a link to the Dark Lens -, we can figure out what makes them unkillable by the Dragon or anyone else but killable by his Spirit Lords. One step at a time. And I think this is a step in the right direction... A brainstorm came up with this: Here is one reasoning that makes it so the Spirit Lords do not need a special template or PrC (although an anti-undead PrC, with some of the characteristics I mentionned above, would be good): The broken focus of the dwarves - what made them banshees – is amplified by the Dark Lens, since the dwarves became banshees while in its possession, and they are eternally linked to it. Anyone that was linked to the Lens before the dwarves became banshees – Champions, and by extension, their servant templars - cannot mend the broken focus and dismiss the banshees. Since the Spirit Lords were created after the banshees took hold of the Lens, and are not templars (thus have no link to the Champions), they can effect the banshees. Using this line of thought, anyone linked to the Lens trying to fulfill the broken focus of the banshees simply fails. (Think of Hamanu and the Scourge: any Champion created after the sword was created is immune to its powers.) On a side note- What ever happened to the spirit lords any way? Did ANY of them survive the events of the Prism Pentad?