Ok, lets hear it from everyone.. what do you think, have hamanu go through the 'exact' same process to progress as the other SK's? or have him slightly different from the norm? And if so, how would you run it in your campaign??
not the same at all.... all of the books point to his form of champion being different.... from the pentad to RaFoaDK
I basically see Hamanu as being a lawful/evil SK but with tendencies to lean toward the L/N. He cares for his city-state, mainly because it is his and his great ego will not allow any other to harm it. Next to the SK of Kurn, I see Hamanu as being the most benevolent, as long as you do not come directly between him and his city-state or personal plans.
I plan on using both Hamanu and Oronis heavily in my campaign. My plans for Hamanu will involve the PC's becoming the unwitting pawns of a Vampiric Wizard /Lord of the Dead (roughly 35th level with the PrC which I found in the WotC archives) who is the lord of the Dead Land. The arch-villain will use the PC's to recover the Silencer of Bodash (I have converted this artifact in my campaign), which I believe was made as powerful as it is because Rajaat was going to use it to kill his Champions when they fulfilled their purpose.
The PC's will then find out that they have just been used in a plot to kill Hamanu, and more importantly, to further destabilize the Tyr region. If the assassins succeed, the other SK's will believe that one of them is responsible and war will break out throughout the whole area as each one tries to prevent the others from gathering the whole region under their influence. With the war waging, the Dead Lord will bring in his Legions of the Dead and hit the SK's when they are at their weakest.
The only way to stop all of that from happening is to stop the assassins, whom now have the Silencer, from killing Hamanu and maybe return to the heart of the Dead Lands to confront the Dead Lord.
This story line will cover many, many sessions.
I also have the groundwork laid to have my PC's encounter a recurring villain, a Defiler Wizard, whom will cross paths with them several times as I run the other adventures. At the end of the Hamanu storyline, the PC's will have made the acquaintance of Oronis and maybe his agents. He will want the PC's to capture the Defiler they have met before so he can be reformed, as per the Book of Exalted Deeds, Oronis will then send the PC's back in time to the Green Age to recover a book he remember seeing that he believe will help him restore a large section of the Tyr Region's life-force (but it will not).
During the ceremony to send them back in time the Defiler will escape and be caught in the spell too. As the PC's end the section of adventures in the past and are returning home, they discover that the Defiler has fallen in with Rajaat and has become one of his champions. When they return to their time the PC's will learn that the Defiler that they fought so many times was none other then Keltis, Lizard Man Executioner, the 10th Champion of Rajaat, and now their patron Oronis the Avangion. :OMG!
I LOVE BEING THE DM- muHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :evillaugh
When they return to their time the PC's will learn that the Defiler that they fought so many times was none other then Keltis, Lizard Man Executioner, the 10th Champion of Rajaat, and now their patron Oronis the Avangion. :OMG!
I LOVE BEING THE DM- muHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :evillaugh
Don't you just love time travel! lol
Do you plan on giving Hamanu any unique abilities in your campaign?? Or Oronis??
Do you plan on giving Hamanu any unique abilities in your campaign?? Or Oronis??
For Oronis, he will be unique in that his form is not the moth-like one most Avangions have. When he decided to change paths, I believe that he was already in the fourth or fifth stage of the Dragon metamorphosis, and so that was his true form, no that of a human any longer. His new form is one of a very thin, golden skinned Dragon with (and I know someone will hate this) very large gold-feathered wings. One of the other things that I have done with him is giving him the Saint template from the BoED and access to several of the Santified spells. In my world, he is a Seer of unrivaled ability.
I have not made out Hamanu yet (waiting for the new material), but I will give him a higher DR and SR/PR. Aside from that, I have not gone any further in his creation. I do not really see Hamanu as greatly different from the other Champions. I think that Rajaat would have prepared tools like weapons and armor for Hamanu when it came time for him to slay the others (ie the Scorcher).
Dregoth mainly observed, in a more scientific way, to see what the effects of an accelerated metamorphosis would do, and had begun attempting to avoid the insanity/rage period that Borys underwent. Hamanu, in the meantime, due to how he was made, he more or less assumed that all the other Champions were in many ways like him. His metamorphosis is happening automatically, the more magic he uses, the more psionics he wields, even the more physical energy he exerts in combat. He also got very nervous about Borys' insanity, and has since realized that he is Rajaat's final solution - the Dragon which can kill other Dragons, Champion made not to just ill one race, but all non-Halflings. And he's been terrified of this impending destiny of his.
According to what has been said about the life shaping seed (correct me if i am wrong), each use over rides any subsequent uses. So.... he would look exactly as he should at that stage of avangionhood as that is the way in which the spell works.
not exactly..... each use of the lifeshape seed overwrites changes of the same type...... In other words once all of the changes from dragon are overwritten then the character would no longer have any dragon appearance...... but untill then they would still have draconic features.....
So if he were a 4 stage dragon his form has scales, larger size, claws, etc...
So untill his Avangion metamorphosis gets to a stage that removes the hands, he will have claws..... he will always be bigger than a avangion that started as human.... untill he gains natural armor from the change he will have scales..... etc....
so per the old transformation, as per the revised rules he was a 4th stage avangion (going with the idea he was a 4th stage dragon, which if I remember right he was only 2nd stage by the info in the revised rules... but )..... he would look like the picture on page 105 of dragon kings with the following changes..... would be Much taller he would have dragon claws and elongated limbs..... the scales would be overwritten at this point.
If we go by them being a dragon of 2nd stage and then transformed he would be almost identical to a normal avangion at this point, with only a slightly larger height.
According to what has been said about the life shaping seed (correct me if i am wrong), each use over rides any subsequent uses. So.... he would look exactly as he should at that stage of avangionhood as that is the way in which the spell works.
But, the progression as stated would be different for each race, ie thri-kreens would look different when the spell was applied. So it does not bend the imagination to think that all Avangions will look different. Also, who is to say that the spellcaster does not modify the spell to give him/her the form that they desire.
Oronis is unique in that he has traveled down both paths that a mage can take to beome an AB.
For Oronis, he will be unique in that his form is not the moth-like one most Avangions have. When he decided to change paths, I believe that he was already in the fourth or fifth stage of the Dragon metamorphosis, and so that was his true form, no that of a human any longer. His new form is one of a very thin, golden skinned Dragon with (and I know someone will hate this) very large gold-feathered wings. One of the other things that I have done with him is giving him the Saint template from the BoED and access to several of the Santified spells. In my world, he is a Seer of unrivaled ability.
Is the transformation of Oronis (going straight from Dragon to Avangion) your unique take on it? Pretty cool if so. I only ask because according to every canon source I've seen, he actually found a way to purge himself of all Dragon levels, and dropped to being a level 11 preserver (his Psion level wasn't stated), and had to build himself up from there. Still, I like that you included stuff from BoED, I include stuff from a lot of books people don't think is standard fare for a DS campaign, like the BoED, the BoVD, Complete Arcane, and actually, just about every book made for 3.5!
Is the transformation of Oronis (going straight from Dragon to Avangion) your unique take on it? Pretty cool if so. I only ask because according to every canon source I've seen, he actually found a way to purge himself of all Dragon levels, and dropped to being a level 11 preserver (his Psion level wasn't stated), and had to build himself up from there. Still, I like that you included stuff from BoED, I include stuff from a lot of books people don't think is standard fare for a DS campaign, like the BoED, the BoVD, Complete Arcane, and actually, just about every book made for 3.5!
I originally made Oronis' conversion from 2ed to 3.5 only a few months ago, I think it was before Athas.org started up the Epic Bureau. The only reason that I kept him with some of his original Dragon traits is to mark him, like a scar, and to show the path that he has walked in his long years. He may have stripped himself of his Defiler levels, but the physical transformation is permanent- he is no longer human. If he was stripped of all aspects of his transformation, he would no longer have been immortal and I think that he would have died of old age before reaching the level of Avangion that he currently has. This is all in-house material, not canon. I made his level in the progression higher because he has been actively working on his transformation- he has the time because he has basically turned over the everyday running of Kurn and New Kurn to others. I think that the other SK's have stagnated over the years and so have either slowed or temporally halted their own transformation.
I have also made the Half-giant from Raam, Leviath the Calm slightly different. In my world, his experiences have lead him to take an Oath of Poverty (BoED), making him slightly more powerful in the area of cool abilities.
I'm curious to know what athas.org intends to do with him in regards to incorporating the events of RaFoaDK (if they ever try to incorporate the novel at all, of course).
Basically, if he's still to be the sk of Urik and, if so, if they intend to explain just what happened at the end of that novel (or will the spirit of the land replace him).
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On a side note - I've always viewed the ending as some kind of mind trick played on Hamanu by the SotL (this means the SotL would have to be very powerful, but, if you think about it, it is probably one of the oldest living creatures on Athas). When all is said and done, I think Hamanu comes back to consciousness alive and well, in the present - and immideately begins preparing his city for a new "golden age".
Thoughts? Comments?
On the matter of Hamanu...
I'm curious to know what athas.org intends to do with him in regards to incorporating the events of RaFoaDK (if they ever try to incorporate the novel at all, of course).
Basically, if he's still to be the sk of Urik and, if so, if they intend to explain just what happened at the end of that novel (or will the spirit of the land replace him).
I personally consider the last bit about Hamanu going off, becoming a full Dragon, and basically dying, as things that have not happened yet. And thus would prefer to leave such campaign altering events that a single novel contains, in the hands of the respective DM's. Personally, I don't lie that it was done to Hamanu - after all, there's been a great majority of Sorcerer-Kings that vanished from the Prism Pentad, and a great shortage of Sorcerer-Kings around in FY 11. Let's not go and kill off the ones that remain. Further, Hamanu appears in Dregoth Ascending, so he's still around.
On a side note - I've always viewed the ending as some kind of mind trick played on Hamanu by the SotL (this means the SotL would have to be very powerful, but, if you think about it, it is probably one of the oldest living creatures on Athas). When all is said and done, I think Hamanu comes back to consciousness alive and well, in the present - and immideately begins preparing his city for a new "golden age".
Thoughts? Comments?
Creative, but not what I'm personally going to use.
I personally consider the last bit about Hamanu going off, becoming a full Dragon, and basically dying, as things that have not happened yet. And thus would prefer to leave such campaign altering events that a single novel contains, in the hands of the respective DM's. Personally, I don't lie that it was done to Hamanu - after all, there's been a great majority of Sorcerer-Kings that vanished from the Prism Pentad, and a great shortage of Sorcerer-Kings around in FY 11. Let's not go and kill off the ones that remain. Further, Hamanu appears in Dregoth Ascending, so he's still around.
First off, I'll say that it makes perfect sense that Hamanu's "still around", as Dregoth Ascending is in (IIRC) FY12, while "Rise and Fall..." takes places in FY 15. :P
To that, I'll add that it is also my opinion that the fate of Hamanu - as written - kind of blows. So, on that at least, we're in agreement.
Now, I'm of the mind that if anything is going to be added to the setting (and be considered "official"), then it should agree with EVERY Dark Sun Product. Other wise you end up having fifty million threads devoted to the debate of whether or not Kalak is Champion. :D
There are indeed ways to do this, AND they don't have to be cheezy. In fact many of us here on the boards can be a tremendous boon to all those at Athas.org for just this purpose (ie. helping to incorporate all material in an officially non-sucky way)
Anyhoo, the problem with Hamanu's fate is- IT HAPPENS. Err, well, he experiences it happening.
So, the way I see there are two ways to solve this.
Either...
1) It happens. For real - and we deal with the world of Dark Sun with one less sorcerer-king
or
2) It happens, but only in his mind. This way we still get to keep our favorite baddie (well mine at least).
Now, for #2 to work, though...Well, I'm of the mind that Hamanu wouldn't all of a sudden lose his mind and start spontaneously hallucinating. So, it should be an outside source. In my opinion, the SotL offers the best option for this, being that it's freakin ancient as all get out, but... WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK?
IDEAS?
Oh, and I'm particularly interested in hearing what route you WILL take, Xlor. Share, will you - PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE?
When all is said and done, I think Hamanu comes back to consciousness alive and well, in the present - and immideately begins preparing his city for a new "golden age".
Note that when I say "golden age", the quotations are there more for like a "wink-wink". You can never really have a golden age under a tyrant after all.
First off, I'll say that it makes perfect sense that Hamanu's "still around", as Dregoth Ascending is in (IIRC) FY12, while "Rise and Fall..." takes places in FY 15. :P
To that, I'll add that it is also my opinion that the fate of Hamanu - as written - kind of blows. So, on that at least, we're in agreement.
Works for me
Now, I'm of the mind that if anything is going to be added to the setting (and be considered "official"), then it should agree with EVERY Dark Sun Product. Other wise you end up having fifty million threads devoted to the debate of whether or not Kalak is Champion. :D
If that happened, you'd find some contradiction with almost every aspect of Dqark Sun in all the materials - excluding even the Novels for this. Hell, they don't even have creatures look the same from DS1 to DS2.
There are indeed ways to do this, AND they don't have to be cheezy. In fact many of us here on the boards can be a tremendous boon to all those at Athas.org for just this purpose (ie. helping to incorporate all material in an officially non-sucky way)
That's what I did, and still like to think I do on the forums here, even though I'm part of Athas.org now, and I do love seeing different people's ideas.
Anyhoo, the problem with Hamanu's fate is- IT HAPPENS. Err, well, he experiences it happening.
So, the way I see there are two ways to solve this.
Either...
1) It happens. For real - and we deal with the world of Dark Sun with one less sorcerer-king
or
2) It happens, but only in his mind. This way we still get to keep our favorite baddie (well mine at least).
Now, for #2 to work, though...Well, I'm of the mind that Hamanu wouldn't all of a sudden lose his mind and start spontaneously hallucinating. So, it should be an outside source. In my opinion, the SotL offers the best option for this, being that it's freakin ancient as all get out, but... WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK?
IDEAS?
Oh, and I'm particularly interested in hearing what route you WILL take, Xlor. Share, will you - PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE?
I personally go with the idea that it doesn't happen at all - Hamanu doesn't experience it, I consider it an embellishment of the Author's (as in Lynn Abbey), which is caused, largely in part, by her having major communication errors with the publisher (TSR) and the Game department at the time. There are other parts of the book that are deviations from what was already in existence for the setting (like calling Abalach-Re the Chapion against Ogres), which is realy up to the individual how they balance this out. as there's so many, usually relatively small conflicting points through the novel, and making a more or less "official" judgement on these discrepencies would inevitably cause friction with at most likely half the community - which is one of the reasons that Athas.org most likely won't make any "official" statement one way or another.
Now - as I said, I don't have Hamanu's fate play out at all as in that novel. I do like his history as presented in it, and even some of the discrepencies I like to use and twak my view of the world with (as Nytcrawler and Pennarin both have talked extensively with me on this matter a number of times). But, when it's all said and done - Hamanu, in my setting, never becomes a Dragon, never "re-locks" Rajaat, never threatens Urik, and never is effectively killed. I don't even know if I like the idea of a Spirit of the Land being in Urik, and even if it is there, I really dislike the idea that it would even remotely want to communicate with a Dragon-King, and definitely would never respect one, even one as Hamanu.
Now, for Hamanu being diferent, I have him being a Warrior (the NPC class), then after Rajaat restructures him, he has his own, special version of Champion of Rajaat (which I call "Champion of Rajaat II"), he also takes levels in War Mind (wth a special Feat that Rajaat bestowed upon him that allows him to learn powers at 1 higher level than the class states, providing that level 6 power manifesting), and as he didn't really learn how to cast magic, but intuitively could use it after Rajaat modified him, he's a Sorcerer in my books, rather than a Wizard (for a total of Warrior/War Mind/Sorcerer being the base for his classes).
With regards to his Dragonhood - I've considered two different approaches with this. First - Rajaat actually made him a Dragon when he made him a Champion, unlike the other Champions who became Dragons later. The other option is that Rajaat rigged him so that when he became a Dragon, he'd develop radically different. either way, I have it that unlike the other Dragon-Kings, he doesn't cast each successive spell stage to advance - he merely uses his magic and/or psionics, as well as natural experience point development all end up forcing him to develop as a Dragon. He honestly thinks all the other Dragon-Kings are like him in this regard. Now, he also realizes that he's a bit different than the others - as Rajaat revealed that he is to be the tool to annihilate Humanity from Athas. He fears what Rajaat has made him, what he is becoming, and therefore does what he can to impede the inevitable, as the novel covers. He starves himself, he rarely uses Magic, and only uses those powers that affect his transformation the least. He does provide spells to his Templars, an due to his intentional reduction in using his powers, Hamanu generally battles on the front lines with his armies, rather than casting spells or using psionics (besides, it is a major morale boost to the troops to see their god-king fighting side-by-side with them).
I carry this a bit further, with the reasoning that Rajaat, by virtue of making him the Champion against Humans, also gave Hamanu the power to kill the other Champions. An, even more, to finish what any of the other Champions failed to do in their mandates. Hamanu is Rajaat's Final Solution. Hamanu, once he reaches the Animalistic Rampage stage, he will automatically go mad, and when he does, he will finish Rajaat's work. Rajaat is aware of this, and thus, he is rather assured that while he is in the Hollow, his work will succeed, as long as Hamanu is around. Hamanu also is immune to all weapons designed to harm a Champion - and weapons designed to kill or injure a Dragon, heal him that damage instead. Hamanu has been present (and arguably, the one who made the killing blow) to every Champion that has fallen which Rajaat did not kill himself (or Kalak, and I do have in my version of Dark Sun that he wasn't a real Champion, thus killable by a force other than Rajaat or Hamanu).
I have Hamanu still definite lord of his domain, and focused on the protection and guardianship of his City-State at whatever cost. He may romanticize himself as some tragic hero, fallen from grace and redeeming himself through Urik, but in actuality, he's still Evil - willing to kill, defile, and destroy anything that goes against his own personal goals, which currently is the protection and guardianship of his city, of his "children". He is extremely strict (in my seting, since I use Affiliation [I think that's the word for the d20 Modern replacement to Alignment], the order of the three affiliations determines their level of importance. I have him being Lawful, Urik, Evil - which means that he is Evil except where it impede or endangers Urik or breaks his view of the Law, he protects and defends Urik unless it conflicts with his view of the Law, and above all, he remains true to his vew of the Law with no exceptions), and he has no tolerance for those who break the law in his city - thus "Hamanu's Laws" fit quite well in my view.
If that happened, you'd find some contradiction with almost every aspect of Dqark Sun in all the materials - excluding even the Novels for this. Hell, they don't even have creatures look the same from DS1 to DS2.
Actually, if all the products agreed with each other, there'd be NO inconsistencies. And we DO have contradictions with almost every Dark Sun
product. By finding a way to work out the contradictions, so that they end up not being contradictions at all, all the better for everyone - because we get a stronger setting because of it. That was basically my point.
I personally go with the idea that it doesn't happen at all - Hamanu doesn't experience it, I consider it an embellishment of the Author's (as in Lynn Abbey), which is caused, largely in part, by her having major communication errors with the publisher (TSR) and the Game department at the time. There are other parts of the book that are deviations from what was already in existence for the setting (like calling Abalach-Re the Chapion against Ogres), which is realy up to the individual how they balance this out. as there's so many, usually relatively small conflicting points through the novel, and making a more or less "official" judgement on these discrepencies would inevitably cause friction with at most likely half the community - which is one of the reasons that Athas.org most likely won't make any "official" statement one way or another.
Again, this just goes to prove my point. Abbey had those problems because of miscommunication, or what-ever - doesn't really matter. This can be said for nearly all of the authors of any Dark Sun product. Dune Trader, anyone. Or how about Psionic Artifacts... My point is : The more we disregard previous literature on the subject of Athas, the more contradictions there will be. And the more contradictions within the material, the weaker the setting becomes. Anyhoo....
Now - as I said, I don't have Hamanu's fate play out at all as in that novel. I do like his history as presented in it, and even some of the discrepencies I like to use and twak my view of the world with (as Nytcrawler and Pennarin both have talked extensively with me on this matter a number of times). But, when it's all said and done - Hamanu, in my setting, never becomes a Dragon, never "re-locks" Rajaat, never threatens Urik, and never is effectively killed. I don't even know if I like the idea of a Spirit of the Land being in Urik, and even if it is there, I really dislike the idea that it would even remotely want to communicate with a Dragon-King, and definitely would never respect one, even one as Hamanu.
Now, actually, even though you don't seem to understand, we are in TOTAL agreement here. I don't have that those events happen either. He doesn't become a dragon, he doesn't throw down with Rajaat, etc. AND the Spirit of the Land doesn't respect or team up with Hamanu. He dupes him. Makes a fool of him even. But all to advance it's own agenda.
But still, so as not to regard yet another Dark Sun product, I think it needs to be explained as to why Hamanu seems to think it happened at all.
I have Hamanu still definite lord of his domain, and focused on the protection and guardianship of his City-State at whatever cost. He may romanticize himself as some tragic hero, fallen from grace and redeeming himself through Urik, but in actuality, he's still Evil - willing to kill, defile, and destroy anything that goes against his own personal goals, which currently is the protection and guardianship of his city, of his "children". He is extremely strict (in my seting, since I use Affiliation [I think that's the word for the d20 Modern replacement to Alignment], the order of the three affiliations determines their level of importance. I have him being Lawful, Urik, Evil - which means that he is Evil except where it impede or endangers Urik or breaks his view of the Law, he protects and defends Urik unless it conflicts with his view of the Law, and above all, he remains true to his vew of the Law with no exceptions), and he has no tolerance for those who break the law in his city - thus "Hamanu's Laws" fit quite well in my view.
Most definately agreed!
Actually, if all the products agreed with each other, there'd be NO inconsistencies. And we DO have contradictions with almost every Dark Sun
product. By finding a way to work out the contradictions, so that they end up not being contradictions at all, all the better for everyone - because we get a stronger setting because of it. That was basically my point.
Again, this just goes to prove my point. Abbey had those problems because of miscommunication, or what-ever - doesn't really matter. This can be said for nearly all of the authors of any Dark Sun product. Dune Trader, anyone. Or how about Psionic Artifacts... My point is : The more we disregard previous literature on the subject of Athas, the more contradictions there will be. And the more contradictions within the material, the weaker the setting becomes. Anyhoo....
Well, some contradictions I work out - and coalese the ideas together eliminating the contradiction. Others, I weigh them, and find which works best for me personally, and toss the other. In the instance of what happens to Hamanu at the end of Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, I disregard that part of it, not the entire book. Different people have different perceptions and perspectives as to what all happened there in actuality. Your ideas work, for those who like them. My view is that it simply never happened, not even in Hamanu's head. Other people like that it happened, and go with that. There's even more, who, like Dawnstealer, disregard all the events which lead to the mass Sorcerer-King executions in Prism Pentad completely, and have all the SK's still alive and kicking (that were prior to PP, that is).
Now, actually, even though you don't seem to understand, we are in TOTAL agreement here. I don't have that those events happen either. He doesn't become a dragon, he doesn't throw down with Rajaat, etc. AND the Spirit of the Land doesn't respect or team up with Hamanu. He dupes him. Makes a fool of him even. But all to advance it's own agenda.
But, we aren't in total agreement. You want to lend credence to that part of the book, even in some small way. I, however, do not. That's the point of contention here - you believe it should be explained as to how Hamanu thought those events transpired. I simply state they did not transpire at all.
As none (zero, nada, ziltch, zip, etc.) of my players have ever read the novels, or, for that matter, the Dark Sun materials other than what I type up with modifications to remove references to things I feel they shouldn't be privvy to, it's a moot point in my campaigns. They only know what I tell them they know (and if their characters ever act on player knowledge that they shouldn't even remotely know... well, those characters have a much shorter lifespan than normal), and they don't even know that the Sorcerer-Kings are Dragons in the first place, they don't know Rajaat or anything about him, hell, they don't even necessarily know anything but merchant rumors and bard's tales about the other City-States, Slave Tribes, and Villiages of the Wastes.
But still, so as not to regard yet another Dark Sun product, I think it needs to be explained as to why Hamanu seems to think it happened at all.
Which is fine - as I said, I don't disregard Rise & Fall. Personally, I love the story, and love how well it meshes with the flavor (if not the specific events/characters/etc.) of the setting. It's just, I don't like the part about Hamanu going off to become a Dragon, then getting killed. I don't even like the idea that the Spirit of the Land there duped him - as I question the idea there's one even remotely near a Defiler-King's city-state. I also don't think there would be a Druid working for a Sorcerer-King, any more than I think a Druid would work side-by-side with any lesser Defiler. I just don't agree with that part of the book, and my decision is quite simple - it never existed, as far as my Dark Sun campaigns are concerned. It's so incredibly easy to think of it in that way, and it is so abhorrent to me to think of it in any other way, that I just leave it at that. If you want a different approach, go for it.
I was only proviing what my own opinion on the topic was, and I'm just stubborn enough that no amount of persuasion will change my opinion on that topic. I don't even understand why you'd want to change my opinion on it to begin with, as honestly, how I feel about that part of the book, how I run it in my own campaign, has little bearing on how you have it in your own games. The "official" policy from Athas.org is to not make a policy on the subject, and let the individual DM decide. It would, in my opinion, set a bad precidence for Athas.org to come out and start explaining various contradictions away on a whim - as official explanations on such things would divide the community, and that's [u]never a good thing[u]. Just look at what Paizo's conversion did - it divided the Dark Sun community so bad, that it took months for people to get over it - and even so, it doesn't take much to rile up the old arguments if we aren't mindful of what we type, and how we phrase things. I have my own personal take on Dark Sun - as does pretty much every single person who has ever posted, or even lurked in this forum, played in a Dark Sun game, ran it, or read the books. Even those who merely flipped through the rules conversion from Paizo have their own perspective as to how Dark Sun should be. And while there might be some things that are the same for many people, there's other things that are radically different from it as well.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off so preachy.
I was only proviing what my own opinion on the topic was, and I'm just stubborn enough that no amount of persuasion will change my opinion on that topic. I don't even understand why you'd want to change my opinion on it to begin with, as honestly, how I feel about that part of the book, how I run it in my own campaign, has little bearing on how you have it in your own games. The "official" policy from Athas.org is to not make a policy on the subject, and let the individual DM decide. It would, in my opinion, set a bad precidence for Athas.org to come out and start explaining various contradictions away on a whim - as official explanations on such things would divide the community, and that's [u]never a good thing[u]. Just look at what Paizo's conversion did - it divided the Dark Sun community so bad, that it took months for people to get over it - and even so, it doesn't take much to rile up the old arguments if we aren't mindful of what we type, and how we phrase things. I have my own personal take on Dark Sun - as does pretty much every single person who has ever posted, or even lurked in this forum, played in a Dark Sun game, ran it, or read the books. Even those who merely flipped through the rules conversion from Paizo have their own perspective as to how Dark Sun should be. And while there might be some things that are the same for many people, there's other things that are radically different from it as well.
That should be in a sticky at the top of this board. Like you say there is no 1 athas - theres about 10,000 or 100,000 or however many people have DMed, played or read about athas. Unless we all run the exact same adventures the same way, we are going to have different Dark Suns. Heck, im pretty sure most DS campaigns didnt have a Predator-type assassin.
Im pleased that you say the official Athas.org policy is to leave some contradictions as they are - no point alienating some of the fans just to make some (or all) of the rest happy. Too bad the timeline didnt have a little quote 'fragments recovered from the ruins of Bodach in 9 FY' or something similar. - same with the list of champions.
I thought the first book of the tribe of one had a good DS flavour (only one i have read). Though the fact he was walking around with the Wanderers Chronicle was a bit wierd [tangent]i always think of the wanderers chronicle as the book that the wanderer would write - but not much use publishing it. not too many book stores in the tablelands and i doubt it would sell well except among the templars and veiled alliance (which would make the lineups for the book signings exciting)[/tangent].
I kept waiting for him to pull out the rules book "wonder where the stats for a elfling are? ooh i wish i was a dwelf they sound cool" :D
That should be in a sticky at the top of this board. Like you say there is no 1 athas - theres about 10,000 or 100,000 or however many people have DMed, played or read about athas. Unless we all run the exact same adventures the same way, we are going to have different Dark Suns.
Good point.
As for Hamanu, even going by the official material presented in the Revised Box set, he's special... being the only "replacement" champion and all. Just how special is he, though? Personally I don't like the whole RaFoaDK "fate" of Hamanu either, and I agree with the above post in regards to why. My stance is that if you want him to be extremely unique and it fits in your campaign, then go for it. If not, why bother? The only "official" stance is that he is a Sorcerer-King and a replacement for Myron of Yorum... beyond that, I say do whatever makes the most sense to you... so in short, he's as special or un-special as you want him to be for your own particular campaign(s).
Raithe
As an interesting side-line, i have had for many years that Rajaat's "path to transformation" breifly eluded to was infact a transformation spell to Godhood (nothing like Dregoths) which combined elements of Avignon, Dragon and Elemental transformations. The elemental vortices were the proto-gods (i've previously posted my theories of them before) that Rajaat would need to fully merge with in order to become a God. However, certain things needed to happen on a personal - psychological - level that Rajaat couldn't handle, hence he buries his research as he was unable to confront the loss of identity that would invariably happen through the process.
Years Later Dregoth uncovers part of it and develops the dragon transformation, Rajaat learns about it, and decides to leave it be, as an experiment, and then proceeds - earlier than anticipated - to imbue the young dragons with the powers to become champions. This process attaches the proto-gods (elemental vortices) to the champions, without merging, thus the champions themselves are quasi-gods without undergoing the balancing component of the "final" transformation (avignon component if you will) nor the conscious bonding with the elemental planes (via the vortext - the part rajaat couldn't handle) and becoming a new being. Thus i neatly explain the SK's quasi-deity status, why Rajaat didn't become either a dragon or avignon or elemental himself, and giving a possible, but nearly infinitely hard process to become a god on athas - all developed before dregoth ascending was public.
Anyway, my .02c about Hammanu: he's a dragon plain and simple with some single item or feat that gives him his slight immunity.