Mm, that was harsher than I intended. You should feel free to make them like the KKK or Nazis if it makes sense in your medieval-style fantasy campaign to put the KKK or Nazis in it.
No, still being sarcastic. Let me try again.
While it is true that many people have different styles of gaming and that it takes all kinds of pixels to make a pixelated tree, my personal preference is to make them more of an ancient, exotic culture that happens to be virulently racist and unpleasant but has many qualities that make them different from certain groups known in 20th and 21st century Earth.
However, Wastri and his goons are more like the KKK and the Scarlet Brotherhood are more like Nazis. This is true. The Brotherhood has the eugenics thing, for example. And they invade other countries. No heavy water, though (god, that's weird; the song I'm listening to just mentioned heavy water as I was typing that).
Most importantly, the Brotherhood is well known for ninja-style assassins. Nazis and the Klan are not. They have a tragic ninja deficit.
Though lately they've gotten all Red Wizards of Thay. This is probably unfortunate. But you could also compare them to Moorcock's Empire of Pan Tang, and that's pretty cool.
Though lately they've gotten all Red Wizards of Thay. This is probably unfortunate. But you could also compare them to Moorcock's Empire of Pan Tang, and that's pretty cool.
Thay in what way, I'm just curious.
More like Nazis.
I think it would be more like 19th century Japan. The Japanese were well known for being racist (not my opinion) and they were also a tyrannical society that banned any form of weapons to be carried by non-military personnel (hence the use of concealed weapons like shuriken, nunchaku, staff and chains). I picture the SB as a blonde-haired, blue-eyed oriental culture with aspirations of world domination. man i sound like a geek. :D
Though lately they've gotten all Red Wizards of Thay. This is probably unfortunate. But you could also compare them to Moorcock's Empire of Pan Tang, and that's pretty cool.
EEK! Remind me never, ever to go up against the Scarlet Brotherhood in your game world! ;) That would be unpleasent.
....................................Omote
FPQ
The Scarlet Brotherhood also has a slight obsession with the occult, as the Nazis are protrayed quite frequently in fictional WWII stories (Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Last Crusade, Castle Wolfenstein, Hellboy).
And it is the Knights of the Watch that are supposed to be like the Klan. So the Scarlet Brotherhood has to find another group to channel.
They are specifically against bakluni and nonhumans, not than all other races in general. Still, their hatred is justified by personal resentment.
For my two cents, I'll throw in Imperial Spain. You've got expansionist tendencies, guys in red robes (Jesuits?), sneaky plots against everybody (again, Jesuits?) and opressing pre-Columbian-like peoples.
Nothing against the Jesuits, by the way. Again, it's a cartoonish stereotype of how they're portrayed.
(1) Germanic/**** "look" to the Suel
(2) Emphasis on (Suel) racial purity
(3) Emphasis on inferiority of all other races and superiority of own race (Suel), ie racism
(4) Seeking world domination/conquest
(5) Eugenics
(6) Fascination with the occult
(7) Fascinationwith/implementation of ritualized rank/organizational structures
(8) Fascination/use of distinctive identifying colors (SB=Reds; Nazis = Black)
Coincidence? Only if one is a hopeless pollyanna or an apologist who likes to "play Nazi" with the SB while denying doing that very thing.
I love GH but one of its most troubling aspects, IMO, is the "cool Suel," and particularly the SB, as "safe" substitutes for Nazis for closet fascists to play with, with a "clean" conscience. Yet, we see the list above. Opps that swastika is showing.
And if the swastika fits, don't complain to me about it. If you think I just called you a Nazi, you are in error but your reaction is "interesting" in such case.
IMO
The SB are clearly, irreduceably "fantasy Nazis." The Suel themselves are not necessarily, as they continue to evolve in canon. However, canon "whitewashes" that declare the Suel "good" and yet still fascists are the worst sort of transparent double-think. Crypto-fascists are still fascists.
If the Suel are "cool" in their "mixed" message, it is their reaction against the "Nazi" elements that is "cool." They are neither "good" nor "cool" if, embracing their "complications," they then embrace their worst aspects under this "cover." THAT is playing Nazi with a "clean" conscience. Crypto-facists are still fascists and fascism is incapable of being either "good" or "cool". Its fine to acknowledge and then rise above/work against but an embrace, however couched, is still an embrace and puts the lie to all notions that one is doing other than "playing Nazi."
If it goose steps like a Nazi, salutes like a Nazi and treats others like a Nazi, guess what? Its a Nazi!
Don't like that? Don't play like that.
If this seems a rough post, I'm sorry. I cut fascism, Nazis etc. NO slack. They deserve none.
I think we were only trying to discuss the type of organization that the Scarlet Brotherhood is, and nowhere has anyone indicated either the SB or the Suel in general as cool or good.
I'd like to also specify that not all Suel are SB racist fascists, just as not all Germans are Nazi racist fascists.
They are specifically against bakluni and nonhumans, not than all other races in general. Still, their hatred is justified by personal resentment.
There is actually quite a bit more to it than that. Read the history of the Gran March a bit closer. Then look at their titles.
Grandiose Imperial Wyvern
vs.
Grand Dragon and Imperial Wizard
(1) Germanic/**** "look" to the Suel
I agree with your larger point that "Shar" bears many similarities to the historical Third Reich and that it shouldn't be romanticized - and I don't think most people want it to be. The Scarlet Sign is a bunch of villains. As far as their government and hierarchy go, there's utterly nothing redeeming about them.
I'll point out, however, that Gygax was actually pretty careful to make his human ethnic groups different from those of Earth. While the Suel are often blond haired and blue eyed, their hair is supposed to have a kinky texture that makes them unlike Earth's northern Europeans. Of course, the illustrations usually don't follow suit. It's a minor difference, but it's indicative of a larger pattern. The Suel aren't Norse, the Oeridians aren't Franks, the Flan aren't Celts, and the Flanaess isn't Europe. We can be more original than that.
Thay in what way, I'm just curious.
They have a lot of wizards who dress in red, for one thing. They're bent on conquest and lately they don't seem very good at it; as of 1998 they seemed, like the Thayans pre-3e, more interested in fighting among themselves. They don't, of course, have the "we're just ordinary magic merchants now pay us no mind" deal that the 3e Thayans apparently have now.
They used to be just monks, assassins, and thieves who mostly worked in secret. They seemed more influenced by kung fu movies and stories of secret Tibetan masters controlling the world from isolated mountains than Nazi Germany. The eugenics thing didn't come till the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover.
I always saw the SB as a takeoff from that.
They have a lot of wizards who dress in red, for one thing.
Uh? Where is it said that all SB wizards wear red robes?
Don't you think it would be a little like wearing a big sign saying "SHOOT ME!"?
Kind of reminds me of the Veiled Alliance in DS. Anyone who thought all people wearing a veil were part of that secret society were in for a rude awakening...
I always thought that the 'SB = Red Wizards of Thay' analogy came from their heavy use of various monsters as cannon fodder.
For my two cents, I'll throw in Imperial Spain. You've got expansionist tendencies, guys in red robes (Jesuits?), sneaky plots against everybody (again, Jesuits?) and opressing pre-Columbian-like peoples.
Nothing against the Jesuits, by the way. Again, it's a cartoonish stereotype of how they're portrayed.
Sorry but no. The color of the Jesuit's robe varied a lot throughout history. Mostly though, it was either black or orange, not red.
As for pre-Columbian peoples, the Jesuits actually did a lot more good than damage there. Sure, they were part of the Inquisition (which they didn't start btw), but they were also the ones fighting in defense of the natives because they were opposed to the institutionalized slavery of the Portuguese/Spanish governments.
One could argue that by 'freedom' they meant 'live as we think you should' but it was still ten times better than what the slavers had in mind for the natives.
As for sneaky plots against everybody, that's simply not true.
Yes, they were sneaky, even devious sometimes.
Yes, they had trouble bowing down to anyone, even the Pope.
Yes, they looked to their Order first and did everything in their power to keep it strong.
But evil masterminds out to get everybody else? No.
IMC, they are not, never have been, and never will be invaders or a naval power. They are zealous isolationists, raiding into the Hepmonaland region now and then for slave stock, but that's about it. They have spies all around the Flanaess to keep tabs on international politics, try and protect their interests, and try and advance their religious beliefs. They're not the sleeping pit bull of Greyhawk, waiting to maul the Flanaess when provoked, but more like the snake in Greyhawk's garden, lurking around, plotting, and whispering words of discontent to those foolish enough to listen.
While I don't oppose the events of the Greyhawk Wars in their entirety, the SB's sudden appearance as a military superpower was just plain crap.
I always pictured the ancient suel towards the end of their empire (though not necessarily their Scarlet Brotherhood offshoot) as like the Melniborians from Fritz Lieber. I have always seen them as fairly corrupt and very decadent.
I've always run the Scarlet Brotherhood in the Nazi fashion myself I guess. Never really thought of them as Nazis though. Very well-organized plotters with their fingers in a lot of plans though.
Uh? Where is it said that all SB wizards wear red robes?
It is the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Don't you think it would be a little like wearing a big sign saying "SHOOT ME!"?
Not in their homelands: Brotherhood assassins (usually) have nothing to gain from their deaths, since they can only climb in their own hierarchy. The wizards might shoot each other in order to eliminate rivals, but they either know who those rivals are or they don't; they aren't going to target every wizard in the hope of accidently hitting someone important.
Outside of their homelands, it depends on whether they're in disguise or appearing as official representatives of the Occluded Kingdom of Shar.
I always thought that the 'SB = Red Wizards of Thay' analogy came from their heavy use of various monsters as cannon fodder.
That's another good one.
As for pre-Columbian peoples, the Jesuits actually did a lot more good than damage there ... As for sneaky plots against everybody, that's simply not true.
Sheesh, I know that's true historically. And I didn't pin the oppression on the Jesuits (notice the lack of parentheticals there) but on the Spanish.
But we're not talking history here, we're talking fictional archetypes. And the insidious-plots aspect of the Jesuits is certainly a common thread in popular literature about them, where the Jesuits are used as foils, masterminds and generally sneaky bastards.
Make that nearly omniscient sneaky bastards. How did the Jesuits learn of the secret 'telluric currents' that control the earth's psychic energy, Umberto Eco asks in Foucault's Pendulum? Easy: The Jesuits always knew everything.
In short, just as there are cartoon stereotypes of Nazis, there are cartoon stereotypes of Jesuits — less evil, more scheming, and perfectly appropriate for being used as a model for the Scarlet Brotherhood.
EDIT: BTW, the South American Nazi hideout concept is also very good.
While I don't oppose the events of the Greyhawk Wars in their entirety, the SB's sudden appearance as a military superpower was just plain crap.
I quite agree. It was one of the things that really weakened FTA for me. I much preferred the SB as arch manipulators, schemers and shadowy figures - an alien culture that really got stirred if PCs or other powers stood on their toes. I just could not figure how this "secret" organisation managed to stay secret whilst building a major military power base. Apparently nobody figured this out! Its rather like saying that nobody figured the arms race in the 1930's etc. , using that analogy
Too much coffee, GVD? Where does this assertiveness come from?
I must confess to a bit of humorlessness on this topic. Everyone has their sore spots.
While I have never encountered players or DMs who intentionally set out to "play Nazi" with the "cool Suel," I have seen fascism and Nazism-in-all-but-name paraded about and romanticized while being "excused" because "that's the Suel!"
I get a bit peeved when the Suel or any other fig-leaf is used as a means to glorify or romanticize behaviors or ideals that left millions upon millions dead in the name of fascism or Nazism. Sure. Very few are going to go out and burn a cross, blow-up a building or gas anyone but the ideas and ideals behind fascism and Nazism are like a virus with a long incubation period. One need only Google to find that 50+ years on there are more than a few who think Hitler and company were right but had bad press agents.
Its a game but the ideas can be quite real out of that context and these ideas have already demonstrated an ability to get loose and even prosper despite all evidence and logic. I will have no part of "cool Suel Nazis." They are fine as villains and in GH as the Scarlet Brotherhood but no PC should be "playing Nazi" and excusing it as "just Suel." If that really is the Suel, and not just the SB, the Suel should not be a PC option. You don't "play" at fascism or Nazism. They are not "cool" and anyone who thinks they might be "fun" to play as a PC is sick or ignorant, to say nothing of thoughtless.
In My Humorless Opinion
PS - Elendur, I think this addresses your question as well. Everybody has their "issues." Me too.
If that really is the Suel, and not just the SB, the Suel should not be a PC option. You don't "play" at fascism or Nazism.
You're being a little aggro-pompous here. Whether I think somebody's game is in good taste or not, I don't tell them what they are and aren't allowed to do in it. I didn't even get the vibe that anyone had come out and said this.
Dismissing it as fantasy in a game doesn't excuse it.
bleah...I must confess to a bit of humorlessness on this topic. Everyone has their sore spots.
A little? :D ... C'mon you get at least moderately humorless on this subject..
Maraudar :P
If that really is the Suel, and not just the SB, the Suel should not be a PC option.
While the Suel Imperium was extremely evil at times, with their terrible experiments on living slaves, modern Suel are just like everyone else. The Duchy of Urnst is almost pure Suel, and they're more or less a good nation. Keoland is half-Suel, and they're not so bad. The people of the Spindrifts seem to be more or less neutral. And the Rhola and Neheli, who were ancient Suel, weren't so bad either.
But really, I've always thought the emphasis on the root human ethnic groups that started with Anne Brown's Player's Guide and has continued into Living Greyhawk is terribly stupid. They were important a thousand years ago, but the modern Flanaess is well-integrated in most areas, everyone blending into everyone else. It's as if you were playing an RPG set in modern England and you had to select between Celts, Saxons, Romans, Normans, Danes, and Picts. Yes, there are still large groups of people who identify themselves as Celts (and there are large Flannae enclaves in the Flanaess), but generally speaking an English person is just English.
It should not be a standard step in character creation to have to decide whether or not your human character is an Oeridian or a Suel. Decide instead whether she's from Urnst, the Yeomanry, or the Amedio Jungle - the PC will usually think of his nationality first. Depending on the region chosen, the ancient root ethnicities might be important, but generally it'll affect appearance and little else.
If you're looking for an inherently evil race, try the former Great Kingdom. According to Ivid the Undying, even the peasants are evil there.
The elven PC mentioned above has had some problems because of his attitude with non-elven and elven NPC's and PC's alike and the players loves it because of these problems. The player even designed the character thus to provoke these problems.
The portrayal of a racist and evil PC or a static evil PC is something that goes beyond the "suel nazi" question (granted, the elven PC in question was only mildly racist and has developed, although grudgingly, into a more tolerant person). These "evil" PC's aren't viablein a long or even medium running campaign. What's the use of playing a racist that shares alot of experiences with other party members of other races and staying a virulent racist while you know that the DM has no intention to pay attention to that part of your background. Either your character will be kicked out of the party or your character will have to hide his virulent racism and be static at this point despite the experiences with the other characters, at which point having the background means nothing at all.
Another point is that I don't like the the portrayal of nazis as a metaphysical evil (as with some of the critiques of the movie "Der Untergang"). I've witnessed debates where all opponents called each other nazis and when critising all of them being called nazi by all.
In my games I don't really disallow Suel racist, Iuz agents, blackguards or asssasins but I will tell those players that I will do nothing to further their characters background and that my stories are primarily centered around good or neutral goals. Furthermore I will explain them that their characters, knowing my other players, will not have a long history within the party when they will will play this character accoring to their ideals and i will ask them if they want to hide their character's ideals whether it is really worthwhile.
In the end, during my years of Dm'ing I've only had players playing (and playing one or two myself) characters with "dodgy morals" just because of the problems it would cause with NPC's and other PC's (although within limits).
Just my ⁈0.02 ;)
Arjen
It is the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Yes, as in "Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign" (TSB, p.2), not the "Brotherhood of Those Who Wear Scarlet"!
Besides, i still think the SB are like old japan with the monks and assassins (ninja) who knows there is nothing published describing them otherwise.
whats wrong with a race that looks anglo but has a deep historic culture like japan (which the suel definitly have a rich historic background)? :D
The portrayal of a racist and evil PC or a static evil PC is something that goes beyond the "suel nazi" question . . . Arjen
Yes. It does. I am not, per se, against "evil PCs." The difference is fantasy evil and real evil. I am unaware of anyone, ever being actually able to raise the dead as an "evil necromancer" or to have hurt anyone trying, etc.. "Fantasy evil" is then a matter of taste; real evil is just evil. And while they have been exposed and over-exposed as villains, fascists and Nazis are very real evils that have a continuing legacy of behaviors and ideals so abhorent and immediate that "playing" at them is, IMO, utterly unacceptable.
Now, the next time I am chased through the mall by a horde of undead or a ravening demon lord, I will be the first to reassess my thought that "playing" such evil is a matter of taste. ;) And while my mother-in-law may bear more than a passing resemblance to both the undead and, appropriately, Orcus, she doesn't count.
In my game I play up the strength of the Ulek nations' multiculturalism, and the xenophobia of Celene as a potentially fatal flaw.
The dwarf in my game hates all orcs and would happily commit genocide without a second thought. I have no problem with this character trait, but he tried to use the fact that dwarves get +1 fighting orcs as a justification for the righteousness of his racism. I explained to him that dwarves get the bonus from experience and training, not to an inherent racial hatred. The dwarf PC may be justified in his racism, given his background and personality, but it is a flaw that prevents him from having a good alignment.
This may put me at odds with a lot of fantasy and D&D tradition, but I'm just not comfortable having Lawful Good characters holding obvious racist attitudes towards sentient beings. (Neutral characters are fine in my game though, as neutrality and characters 'on the edge' are well within Greyhawk tradition, IMO)
Remember the old urban legends about how the Nazi leadership secretly escaped to South America after World War II and was still plotting to take over the world?
I always saw the SB as a takeoff from that.
well a few did escape to South America but were more conserned with hiding than world domination, and most were assassinated b7y Isreal anyway
I love it when people cant seperate reality from fantasy.
So if I show up at your game, demanding to play a racist, serial killer, child molesting arsonist, that's ok? Hey, it's just fantasy after all.
So if I show up at your game, demanding to play a racist, serial killer, child molesting arsonist, that's ok? Hey, it's just fantasy after all.
Lol, no mate, i wouldnt let anyone play a character with those traits. On the other hand i have no problem with villains of the sort (not including child molestation, which doesnt belong anywhere).
Lets face it. You say Serial killer? to an orc child, would not the noble paladin be a serial killer. Would a wizard using bat poo as a spell component be disturbing?
i never wanted this to turn into a flame war. I always like to look at things from outside the square.
To GV Dammerung> Talk to me when you have been to war mate. i've seen what was done in the gulf, and the only difference between them and nazi's is that we (being allied forces, not just america) stopped them before it got out of hand.
now, can we go back to the topic, and try to figure out what the suel are all about.
ripvanwormer: I am merely an armchair historian, but I think nationalism appeared a bit later than the middle ages. I would think that an Englishman of c. 1200 would very much be aware if he were Saxon, Norman, or what have you.
I would think that an Englishman of c. 1200 would very much be aware if he were Saxon, Norman, or what have you.
Oh, no doubt, but then the Norman Conquest was only a hundred years before.
In the current Flanaess, the Oeridians migrated a thousand years ago. The Oeridians as a distinctive race are quite literally ancient history. The comparison with modern England is quite accurate.
Another comparison would be imagining that an Englishman in 1200 AD would identify himself as a Roman or Briton - except it's even more extreme, since the Romans left only six or seven hundred years ago. The Suel and Oeridians are much more ancient than that.
Nationalism may be a recent phenomenon, but so is pan-racism - the notion that the race your distant ancestors belonged to (or theoretically belonged to) is more important than what city you were born in or who your feudal lord is. The idea that people think of themselves as Germanic or Slavic first and members of whatever nation they live in second is a phenomenon that only began in the 19th century. Obviously gypsies and Jews are an exception, since they were seperated by stigma - just as the Rhennee are stigmatized in the Flanaess. It's fine to say your character is Rhennee. It's a ridiculous anachronism to say your character is Suel first and Keoish second.
Maybe the Scarlet Sign thinks that way, but no one else does.
For five years that's bothered me, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. And that's it exactly Rip.
Tags like Suel, Oeridian, Baklunish, and to a lesser extent Flan because of the element you identified for the Rhennee, should always be secondary, or tertiary, to settlement/feudal lord and even nation.
That's why I found the concept of racially "pure" nobility to be offsetting for the Sheldomar. They wouldn't identify that way. They'd focus on being "pure" in regards to other noble families, not merely their "race".
Dang it! Where were you to brainstorm this stuff when I needed you?
:P
Dang it! Where were you to brainstorm this stuff when I needed you?
:P
I said as much in 1998! And again when you were first going over Keoish history. Russ Taylor was also pretty adamant about letting Keoish nobles marry into other noble families.
However, one idea that I like is that the Suel believe that magical power is inherited, so Suloise women have always taken care to make sure that the sorcerous strength of their descendents isn't diluted by mundane blood. That would explain extremely inbred noble families - it wouldn't be keeping their Suel blood pure so much as it would be keeping their magical blood pure; they would be just as cagey about breeding with other Suloise who lacked their pedigree. Maybe Scarlet Brotherhood racism is just an extreme misinterpretation of this trend. Most Suel mage families would be happy to breed with Rary or Alhamazad or whoever, race be damned.
Ancestors are also very important to the ancient and medieval mind. Perhaps some Suel nobles trace their ancestry to Slerotin, and are reluctant to make that illustrous fact less special by letting Slerotin's blood spread into the veins of rival houses.
I always pictured the ancient suel towards the end of their empire (though not necessarily their Scarlet Brotherhood offshoot) as like the Melniborians from Fritz Lieber.
Wrong author. You're thinking of Michael Moorcock.
To GV Dammerung> Talk to me when you have been to war mate. i've seen what was done in the gulf, and the only difference between them and nazi's is that we (being allied forces, not just america) stopped them before it got out of hand.
On this the 60th Anniversary of VE Day, let me note that your jingoistic comment demonstrates an utter lack of historic perspective. Talk to me when you have studied history. Of course, then, you would not make such an assinine statement. Any comparison between the Nazis and the Iraqi Bathists is laughable. Hussein and his regime were bumblers capable of committing atrocities on their own people but everytime he stepped out of Iraq he got his head handed to him. He was beaten back by the Iranians for heavens sake! Nazis? Hardly. I can go on if you would like -
Sustained military successes/conquests? NO.
Protracted combat before being defeated? NO.
Advanced weaponry for the time? NO.
Concentration camps in Iraq on a scale equal to Treblinka, Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergenbelsen etc.? NO.
Mass forced relocations? NO.
Mass slave labor? NO.
Deaths of millions? NO.
Use of propaganda to gain support of majority of own nation? NO.
Credible airforce? NO.
Credible navy? NO.
Credible army? NO.
Continuing influence, even among other Bathist or Arab states? NO.
Hussein was a brutal dictator but not all brutal dictators are comparable to Hitler and the Nazis. Pol Pot. Idi Amin. Jean Bokasa. These are on Hussein's level. Not Hitler.
Sorry, mate. You didn't fight WWII; you never even came close. The world's superpower, allied with the first world's Britian, Australia etc. Beat the living tar out of a third world dictator who was nowhere near as well armed or supplied and did it in a month and a half. WWII? ROFL. Hitler and the Nazis? ROFLMAO! Except such ignorance of history is no laughingt matter.
Go tell your war stories to the girl at the end of the bar. You are dismissed, solder.
I said as much in 1998! And again when you were first going over Keoish history. Russ Taylor was also pretty adamant about letting Keoish nobles marry into other noble families.Ah, but Russ said that while going on about the purity of the Urnst bloodlines, from noble to peasant.
And when? Where? Did I misst it in all the noise? I should have moved you to a separate list and kep you safe. :PHowever, one idea that I like is that the Suel believe that magical power is inherited, so Suloise women have always taken care to make sure that the sorcerous strength of their descendents isn't diluted by mundane blood. That would explain extremely inbred noble families - it wouldn't be keeping their Suel blood pure so much as it would be keeping their magical blood pure; they would be just as cagey about breeding with other Suloise who lacked their pedigree. Maybe Scarlet Brotherhood racism is just an extreme misinterpretation of this trend. Most Suel mage families would be happy to breed with Rary or Alhamazad or whoever, race be damned.
Ancestors are also very important to the ancient and medieval mind. Perhaps some Suel nobles trace their ancestry to Slerotin, and are reluctant to make that illustrous fact less special by letting Slerotin's blood spread into the veins of rival houses.
As time has gone on we've (me and Gary Holian) have more precisely identified some of the elements involved.
The Neheli are extreme endogamists, with a quirky attraction to elves. Perhaps that is tied into the magical bloodlines issue. (And that sounds like something I'd like to explore more with you and Gary sometime.)
The Rhola are agressive power competitors, marrying out to secure alliances, marrying within the family to secure bloodlines to seize control of the family. (And which ties into the second concept.)
The Linth are vile racists, ala the whole SB threat here.
Hmmm . . .
Wrong author. You're thinking of Michael Moorcock.
Augh! You're right, I was.
On the topic of SB=Red Wizards, I have always held to the dirty little fantasy that they are somehow related/in cahoots with each other
If you make the comparison to the 1e/2e FR Red Wizards, I could agree, somewhat. While the racial thing isn't as big a factor, they are a totalitarian regime grounded in a quasi-religious mysticism, and very cool villains.
On the other hand, 3e's "dirty rotten magic item vendors" Red Wizards are just plain lame. Leave that nonsense to FR.
Folks get very touchy about things like Real-World Ethnicity/Culture/Organizations and in some cases, Historical Personages or Events. We like to avoid upsetting folks unessecarrily around these parts.
This thread will be locked, please do not restart it.
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