Elemental clerics are supposed to be against the undead even though evil and neutral clerics can command them they're still supposed to destroy them eventually. How does this jive with running around with a small group of undead following you?
Now, I know the Athas.org rules have the Dead Heart domain that gives access to animate dead and the old 2E rules also allowed clerics to animate dead so I don't want to tell him he can't take it but I'm not sure how to work it. Any ideas?
That's the Dragon's rules for ya! ;) Seriously, if I were you, I'd try to see his casting spells as the Water Elemental Lords would. Does he further the cause of water by animating undead? I sorta doubt it. Water is about life on Athas, Dontcha think? The Death domain isn't necessarily out of the question since death is part of life but being the DM, I'd tell my player to be real careful about what he does with the animate dead related spells.
PB
Hmm... Death domain and water, heh...
Don't blame the Dragon rules. Both the original 2E rules and Athas.orgs rules allow any elemental cleric to cast animate dead as a third level spell. Which is why I'm trying to find ways to justify it as I don't really want to tell my player he can't do it.
Don't blame the Dragon rules. Both the original 2E rules and Athas.orgs rules allow any elemental cleric to cast animate dead as a third level spell. Which is why I'm trying to find ways to justify it as I don't really want to tell my player he can't do it.
Don't worry, I just wanted to show my true colors... as I'm not a fan of those rules, that's all. :D
But still, my opinion stands, zombies-even controlled ones-sort of goes against my views of the life and death cycle. Maybe I'm wrong but hey, that's just me.
Don't worry, I just wanted to show my true colors... as I'm not a fan of those rules, that's all. :D
But still, my opinion stands, zombies-even controlled ones-sort of goes against my views of the life and death cycle. Maybe I'm wrong but hey, that's just me.
I personally disallow any Clerics - elemental or paraelemental, from being able to control, rebuke, or create undead. I use the Athas.org domains, and I have banned the "Dance of Decay" domain in my games completely. I too personally believe that undead goes against the very precepts of the life & death cycle existing in nature, and that all clerics are more or less champions of the very components of nature - the elements and paraelements. It would go against the precepts of these forces to grant their followers the ability to create or rebuke/control undead.
Your the Dm, u do as you wish
Of course your right, but its a good idea to try and run a game without p'ing off you players without a decent explanation, which i guess is why A2Z posted the question in the first place. I find when DMing that the players often come up with great ways of expanding the world that I previously hadn't thought of and so if this player has a decent idea for their character that doesn't harm the campaign then I say go with it
Hmm... Death domain and water, heh...
So you worship rain as the pivot between life and death. If it rains, food and water galor. If it doesn't everyone dies. It makes sense.
RunningWilder, that sig better not have any ******* spyware ...........
None that my systems have ever found. Hadn't thought about that.
It appears to be an IP logger, and resets itself every few minutes. I pronounce it contamination free, and sorry to blow up your spot like that!
Ah, that's what I figured. No problem. Carry on.
I see no real problem allowing a cleric to rebuke or control undead. There are as many elemental clerics who simply revere their element for their own personal power rather than the better good of the world and I take Terminus's view that these clerics would see undead as an asset to achieve that goal
Regardless of the views of the Cleric - no Elemental power, in my mind, would ever allow anyone who is recieving power from that Element, to rebuke/control undead. The elements are fighting to resore the Balance (or, for the Paraelements, they are focused on gaining more power for themselves) - but the Undead are an abberation to the natural flow of things - even the Paraelements loathe Undead. So, Clerics of any element or paraelement, despite their personal alignment, cannot Rebuke/Control undead - they only can Turn/Destroy. I simply ban the Dance of Decay domain, as well as any spell that animates or controls undead (I've considered banning the [Death] descriptor completely).
Now, that doesn't mean there's no force to Rebuke/Control undead in my game - that power is delegted to Templars (of all SK's except Oronis), as the Dragon Kings have a metaphysical entrenchement in Negative Energy (through their excelling in defiling), it permiates the power that they transfer to their Templars, and colors it. As such, all Templars, in my campaign, of Dragon Kings, Rebuke/Control undead, regardless of their own personal alignment (which I have Templars bein restricted to up to 1 step away from their respective Sorcerer-Kings, so fo most of them, it's either Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, or Lawful Neutral; Daskinor's are Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil; Oronis' are Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good).
Of course your right, but its a good idea to try and run a game without p'ing off you players without a decent explanation, which i guess is why A2Z posted the question in the first place. I find when DMing that the players often come up with great ways of expanding the world that I previously hadn't thought of and so if this player has a decent idea for their character that doesn't harm the campaign then I say go with it
I always give complete explanations to my rulings. I also tend to write down any house rules I make up on the spot, so then I don't rule one way at one point, and a different, conflicting way at another. And of course, I let my players expand on the world in their own ways. I usually have things written down at the beginning, that later, becomes restructured slightly through the campaign as I personally let the roleplaying determine what really happens (players who don't roleplay - but just are there to roll the dice and get more loot, usually find life very difficult in my campaigns unless they straighten out and start roleplaying).
Regardless of the views of the Cleric - no Elemental power, in my mind, would ever allow anyone who is recieving power from that Element, to rebuke/control undead.
In my view of dark sun I kind of see clerics as those who are attuned to an element rather than worship or reverence of an elemental power but I totally see your point. This could be a good way for A2Z to make a decision on this. If elemental powers grant the divine power rather than the abstract concept of an element then I wouldn't allow rebuking/turning of undead either and would possible use elemental turning as an alternative
I always give complete explanations to my rulings. I also tend to write down any house rules I make up on the spot, so then I don't rule one way at one point, and a different, conflicting way at another. And of course, I let my players expand on the world in their own ways. I usually have things written down at the beginning, that later, becomes restructured slightly through the campaign as I personally let the roleplaying determine what really happens (players who don't roleplay - but just are there to roll the dice and get more loot, usually find life very difficult in my campaigns unless they straighten out and start roleplaying).
Absolutely - its very noticeable in our campaigns that the last few we have started in 3e (we have 2 or 3 running at a time) have been much better documented at the beginning than our original forrays into 3e and have been much more succesfull as far as players knowing which sources/background/house rules are applicable. But sometimes, stuff just comes up that you haven't thought about and if thats the case as a DM I usually think that I guess it wasn't to important to me originally (else I would have written it into the background) and the player may have a really good idea that I can bring into the campaign
In my campaigns on Athas, things like skeletons, zombies, etc are not necessarily evil. I'll explain.
Undead on Athas are all unique - something binds them to Athas and keeps them from merging with the Gray.
When a cleric summons the "undead" he's really just fusing a decaying body with energy from his element. The Elements don't care about bodies and it's not like the soul of the person in question hasn't been absorbed into the Gray (which they don't care about at all) or into their element (which they do care about, but wouldn't release). Instead, it's just powering up a body with elemental energy and animating, sort of like animating a chair or desk or Mickey's brooms.
When a cleric turns undead, it's one of two things: if the undead in question is a "true" undead, that is, one of the myriad of unique undead on Athas (dhaot, Raaig, etc), the energy from the elements is used to force them into the Gray - a process that's very painful for them. If the undead is simply an "animated walking dead," the energy from the elements is used to sever the energy coming from whatever element is powering them, causing them to cease to be animated.
So in my campaigns, controlling or animating undead is not inherently good or evil. Now if a cleric could somehow create a unique undead, that would be a different story, but that's not what I allow them to do in my campaign - the undead are mindless and souless animated husks with elemental batteries.
That's my take.
Zombie's animated by a rain clerics could be shrouded in a fine mist or fog. Skeletons raised up by a fire or magma cleric could have glowing bones.
Seems like an opportunity to add bit of DS flavor to otherwise boring undead types.
In my campaigns on Athas, things like skeletons, zombies, etc are not necessarily evil. I'll explain.
Undead on Athas are all unique - something binds them to Athas and keeps them from merging with the Gray.
When a cleric summons the "undead" he's really just fusing a decaying body with energy from his element. The Elements don't care about bodies and it's not like the soul of the person in question hasn't been absorbed into the Gray (which they don't care about at all) or into their element (which they do care about, but wouldn't release). Instead, it's just powering up a body with elemental energy and animating, sort of like animating a chair or desk or Mickey's brooms.
When a cleric turns undead, it's one of two things: if the undead in question is a "true" undead, that is, one of the myriad of unique undead on Athas (dhaot, Raaig, etc), the energy from the elements is used to force them into the Gray - a process that's very painful for them. If the undead is simply an "animated walking dead," the energy from the elements is used to sever the energy coming from whatever element is powering them, causing them to cease to be animated.
So in my campaigns, controlling or animating undead is not inherently good or evil. Now if a cleric could somehow create a unique undead, that would be a different story, but that's not what I allow them to do in my campaign - the undead are mindless and souless animated husks with elemental batteries.
This is how I play too. Animated unded are simply tools and the elemental lords don't care about the tools - only what they're used for. If the undead of the example water cleric are used to kill fire clerics or prevent needless abuse of a water source by say an elf tribe moving through the area, the elements are pleased.
To those who disagree that elemental clerics should have the ability to turn/control and animate the dead, the example water cleric with Death and Water domains might be more suitable as a paraelemental rain cleric?