Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 07, 2005 2:09:16	What I've been doing in my spare time lately has pretty much been leading up to figuring out levels for the main monarchs of the setting as it pertains to my campaign. Some of you won't agree with this, but hey some might. The way I figured this out was by taking 2e levels and multiplying by 2. Then I fudged the results a little, usually by multiplying the results of above by 1.x, where x is the population of the ruled city-state in thousands. I didn't always stick to this though, using my discretion to iron some things out. For instance, I used half of Raam's population to do this, so Abalache-Re didn't wind up insanely powerful. I did the same for Borys, and did the reverse for Dregoth. I also changed a few things here and there to suit flavor. I also do not have detailed breakdowns of power, though it will follow eventually. Kalak: Level 58 (NOT a dragon, just a powerful defiler/psion) Hamanu: Level 61, Dragon Stage 3 Tectuktitlay: Level 51, Dragon Stage 2 Andropinis: Level 54, Dragon Stage 1 Nibenay: Level 60, Dragon Stage 4 Abalache-Re: Level 50, Dragon Stage 1 Lalali-Puy: Level 47, Dragon Stage 2 Dregoth: Level 77, Dragon Stage 9 Borys: Level 83, Dragon Stage 10 Daskinor: Level 53, Dragon Stage 2 Oronis: Level 58, Dragon Stage 2 and Avangion Stage 4 Kalid-Ma: Level 62, Dragon Stage 7 Borys has more levels than Dregoth, but the two will be comparable in power (until the godhood spell at least) due to dregoth's undead nature and some other things. Also, I came up with the following: Farcluun: Level 29, Dragon Stage 2 Korgunard: Level 30, Avangion Stage 3 For these two, I pretty much just converted straight 2e to 3e. Farcluun was a Level 22/22 Character, so became a level 22+(22/3)=29 character, while Korgunard was 23/23 and became a level 23+(23/3)=30 character. Like I said, this is for my own work, which deviates a bit from what will generally be canonical dark sun, but I thought I'd share in case it sparks some other ideas or someone would like to yoink a little bit of what (and how) I'm doing (things) here. Eventually I'll be giving similar treatment to the Mind Lords and others, but one step at a time. nic
#2 argaud May 07, 2005 7:15:02	Hahahaha. Well, okay, your campaign, your hoserules But seriously, do you realize your SKs have twice the level that official NPCs with similar accomplishments in other worlds? And that characters levels 50-80 are so powerful they would have annihilated the Heroes of Tyr without blinking, from their palaces in different cities, in seconds. Those levels imply a campaign where the SKs will never, ever be challenged by mortal heroes. Have you ever stated a character -that- powerful? Do you honestly realize what they can accomplish with so much power? Frankly, cut those levels by half, I bet they are still more than powerful enough to do anything you think they should do. There is no reason not to follow the official conversion rules from 2e to 3e, characters of levels 27-37 are already incredibly powerful.
#3 kalthandrix May 07, 2005 7:39:03	I am sorry Cap'n, but I kind of have to agree with Argaud on this. I do think that you are going in the right direction with throwing out the straight conversion rules, but I see no reason to include a multiplier for the cities population. At the levels the SK's are at, I really do not expect that there is much in the way of exp being generated- they are just too high of a level to benefit from the minor challenges of running a city. In the EHB, according to table 3-9, the SK's would not even receive exp for a single creature of eight CR's below the SK's level. So even with your lowest level SK (47th lvl), they would need a creature with a CR of at least 39 to get any exp at all. But, I know that this is something that you threw together and I do think it is a great starting point for some discussion :lightbulb
#4 Sysane May 07, 2005 9:05:06	I honestly feel that the SK's average around a class level of 40th. Give or take a few levels. 38th level being lowest and 45-48th being the highest. Thats just IMO. Furthermore, lets not forget that the SK's would also have a Champion Template, or whatever, that would set them apart from other would be dragons. Granted, what that entails in the terms of power is beyond me.
#5 zombiegleemax May 07, 2005 9:17:02	I would have to agree w/ Sysane on this. Dregoth is close to 48-50 maybe. Hamanu and Nibenay are both around 39-40, with Lalali-Puy around 36-37. Oronis is right on par w/ Lalali-Puy, while Daskinor is probably 35ish. All 3 of the SKs from the Tablelands have been much more active then their self-exiled counter parts. Just my take on things.
#6 Pennarin May 07, 2005 11:46:25	I used to throw levels around, making Dregoth 80 and such, but with the advent of the cerebremancer and a scalable epic dragon class, I'd put the upper limit with Dregoth and Borys at 60 levels, with everyone else between 35 and 50.
#7 kalthandrix May 07, 2005 12:35:15	If there are going to be non-standard classes and PrC's, I think that it would be great if Athas.org provided them for us (ie the Marshall from the MHB).
#8 Pennarin May 07, 2005 13:47:13	If there are going to be non-standard classes and PrC's, I think that it would be great if Athas.org provided them for us (ie the Marshall from the MHB). Won't happen. Maybe in a parallel universe?...naah. With PrC Appendix I and II, there will be so many PrCs for DS that flavorful Champions will be built without using classes not found in the SRD.
#9 zombiegleemax May 07, 2005 17:05:19	So nothing to represent how the champions evolution as a dragon is seperate from those that do not have access to the Dark Lens and the Prestine Tower?
#10 squidfur- May 07, 2005 17:40:06	If there are going to be non-standard classes and PrC's, I think that it would be great if Athas.org provided them for us (ie the Marshall from the MHB). Won't happen. Maybe in a parallel universe?...naah. With PrC Appendix I and II, there will be so many PrCs for DS that flavorful Champions will be built without using classes not found in the SRD. In regards to Prestige Classes, I'd at least like to see, from Athas.org (and I'm thinking this might be what Kalthandrix meant - maybe not, but...) is a list of those PrC's that are appropriate - "officially".
#11 Pennarin May 07, 2005 21:14:28	So nothing to represent how the champions evolution as a dragon is seperate from those that do not have access to the Dark Lens and the Prestine Tower? Why do you say that? Giving access to Spellsword or Geometer won't help making those that are SKs special. I think you're refering to 90% of the boards' idea, which is to give a template to those guys and gals. Nothing to do with classes. In regards to Prestige Classes, I'd at least like to see, from Athas.org (and I'm thinking this might be what Kalthandrix meant - maybe not, but...) is a list of those PrC's that are appropriate - "officially". I would like that too, although such a list would be a bit worthless.
#12 zombiegleemax May 08, 2005 0:49:35	Really my purpose of making them such high level was to put them on comparable footing with your run of the mill deities from other settings. They don't have salient divine abilities or anything, which gives the deities quite an edge, but they would certainly be comparable. As for comparing to other settings, I still and will probably always feel that Dark Sun is more dangerous and powerful and your average npc or power-player from the realms or any other place wouldn't really stand a chance in comparison to an average npc or power-player from Athas. Like I said though, what I did and am doing isn't for everybody, but I wanted to share and get some thoughts, so I appreciate what all everyone's offered. I'm still at the baby steps phase, and I can only do this when I have spare time, of which I've had a lot lately being sick, so the input's good.
#13 kalthandrix May 08, 2005 10:57:06	Won't happen. Maybe in a parallel universe?...naah. With PrC Appendix I and II, there will be so many PrCs for DS that flavorful Champions will be built without using classes not found in the SRD. Thanks Pennarin! I just wanted to make sure that if a PrC was used in the creation of one of the SK's that we would all have access to the stats and not have to go out to buy a book just for one PrC. If I am reading you right, then all of the SK's will be created using the basic classes and PrC's that Athas.org have put together in the Appendix I & II. Capt'n Nick- While I agree with your thought process with reguard to the power curve on Athas vs. the rest of the RPG worlds (ie the Realms), I am just thinking of all of the other people out there who would take a look at a 80th level character and be overwhelmed with the complexity of running one. I too think that a Dragon-King from Athas would shomp the out of some of the lesser gods of other worlds. Feel well!
#14 Pennarin May 08, 2005 15:56:03	If I am reading you right, then all of the SK's will be created using the basic classes and PrC's that Athas.org have put together in the Appendix I & II. Do understand I'm not privvy to anything concerning the SKs from athas.org, so when I say athas.org will use the Appendices for the PrCs for the SKs, I don't know per say; rather I'm talking from a legal standpoint: Spellsword and Geometer, for example, are not OGC, so athas.org can't mention them, thus use them in the builds for the SKs.
#15 kalthandrix May 08, 2005 17:40:56	Do understand I'm not privvy to anything concerning the SKs from athas.org, so when I say athas.org will use the Appendices for the PrCs for the SKs, I don't know per say; rather I'm talking from a legal standpoint: Spellsword and Geometer, for example, are not OGC, so athas.org can't mention them, thus use them in the builds for the SKs. Gottya Pennarin, thanks.