With big bad Borys gone, and Rajaat locked away again (in theory) what do you think the surviving SK's plans are now. I know that the 2e Revised Box Set has some info in this regard, however its sort of vague on their actual motivation and goals outside of the "lets make Athas a better place" malarky. They must have other schemes beyond the betterment of the Tyr Region.
Thoughts, comments, insults?
Oronis is going to continue to try to advance along the path of the avangion. With Borys out of the way, he might be a little more overt in recruiting potential avangions.
Daskinor's still crazy.
Hamanu is probably thinking about how an iron mine would look on his mantle and, if Lynn Abbey is to be believed, maybe looking for a way to reverse some of the damage done by Borys and the Cleansing Wars.
Dregoth still wants to be a god and rule a city on the surface.
Nibenay wants to be a full-blown dragon, but doesn't want to go insane and destroy what's left of the world in the process.
Lalalai-Puy might (might) go the Oronis route and begin a shift towards preserver, but that's a HUGE if.
Think that's all of them.
- Kalak (now dead and trapped in the black) try to contact incognito one of the PC so he can be raised back. He pose as a long dead sage of the Green age.
- Hamanu just lost a war agaisnt Tyr and he's quiet for now, planing is revange against the Free city.
- Androponis is busy with Giant so he have no plan for now.
- Nibenay is trying to find a way to stop his ever incrasing animalistic rage. His almost succeed with Siemouk.
- Tectutitlay continu to achieve dragon hood by sacrifying lot of slave on his pyramid.
- Abalach-Re try to survive and take control of her chaotic city-state.
- The oba try to achieve dragonhood by sacrifying slave during the red moon hunt. She also trying to enslave a spirit of the land for something I havent figured yet. But its in my plan for futur adventure.
- Oronis: After the pain of the losses of each of his apprentice avangions, and fear that with Rajaat being secured once again, Oronis has gone even deeper into hiding, with his spy network scattered around throughout each of the other City-States, keeping tabs on what the others are doing, in an effort to anticipate what the Dragon-Kings are doing, in order to protect his extremely closely guarded secret.
Daskinor: Mad as ever, I don't think he's capable of ever really getting himself out of this problem. I have his city divided into even more dangerous and divided factions than Raam has, as his city is being affected by his wild, erratic psychosis, possibly a side effect of his psionic power being based in emotion rather than study (I see him as a Wilder, rather than Psion). - Hamanu: Focused totally on the defense and protection of his jewel, his precious Urik, and that colors his perception of everything else. Like a cornered beast, he is even more dangerous to outsiders, for if he senses a possible threat to his city, I feel that those he percieves as the threat will face a very quick and bloody death. Much of his energy is being used to shield his city from the new scourge known as Tyr-Storms.
- Dregoth: His plans will be fully revealed in Dregoth Ascending.
- Nibenay: Now more determined than ever to be active within his city, prepare it for possible attacks from forces that he thought were secured (Rajaat), and the new Tyr Storms, as well as whatever the Great Earthquake may have been aforewarning, he also now has redoubled his efforts to become a full dragon, and yet is completely terrified of the insanity this could bring.
- Lalai-Puy: In my eyes, the ultimate opportunist, she has herself set up as appearing very concerne about the environment, but this is merely a ploy to secure more power. She has been trying to attract Druids, and the Pterrans and Aarakocra into her city. She may even try to extend her hand to the Preservers as well, if she feels that such allies could give her more of an edge against the other Sorcerer-Kings, and possibly also from Rajaat should he get free once again. Her problem is that as much she tries to hide her true nature, the more transparent it becomes to those whom she wishes to ally with.
- Andropinis: He is working on his escape, but is also becoming rapidly aware of just how much Rajaat inluences the Black, and feels this influence slowly insinuating itself in him, the longer he remains there (which makes him even further motivated to escape).
I also like the idea hat Irikos is a Champion (but not Dragon), and has begun seeking ways to retaliate against the traitors (the Sorcerer-Kings), recently reawoken by various forces, including some Cerulean Mages.
Plus, I have the idea that Rajaat really isn't truely trapped in the Hollow any more. Sadira's power has absolutely no effect on keeping him there, however, he is licking his wounds, and bides his time in the Hollow while he prepares for his next attack - solidifying his alliances with the Paraelemental powers, using the Cerulean Storm to cool off the Lava in the former Valley of Dust and Fire, and forming a skepeton of pure obsidian forged from that, merged with the Dark Lens, and amplifying that power as well, to be the new physical form for him when he comes back. He lets Tithian rage and rampage, as Tithian's temper tantrums serve his purpose as well, and he also has been securing his domination over the Black and all it's denziens (even Andropinis), while increasing the numbers of Cerulean Mages slowly, who do his bidding - knowingly or not.
Oronis is going to continue to try to advance along the path of the avangion. With Borys out of the way, he might be a little more overt in recruiting potential avangions.
I'd agree with that. Maybe he could look for a way to bring back Korganard (sp?) as well.
Daskinor's still crazy.
No doubt. But maybe his insanity will reach a boiling point and he'll attempt something world shattering to destroy all his "would be enemies".
Hamanu is probably thinking about how an iron mine would look on his mantle and, if Lynn Abbey is to be believed, maybe looking for a way to reverse some of the damage done by Borys and the Cleansing Wars.
Well, I have no comment of the Lynn Abbey thing, but as for the iron mines, I think Hamanu might stay away from Tyr and look towards one of the other "Kingless" city states.
Dregoth still wants to be a god and rule a city on the surface.
Yeah, DA pretty much details what big D's up to. Don't want to get into to much of that without giving away to much.
Nibenay wants to be a full-blown dragon, but doesn't want to go insane and destroy what's left of the world in the process.
I'd have to say Nib's is still very much interested in becoming a full dragon. Especially with Dregoth at his front door.
Lalalai-Puy might (might) go the Oronis route and begin a shift towards preserver, but that's a HUGE if.
Ya lost me on this one. Whats your rationale there?
[*]Lalai-Puy: In my eyes, the ultimate opportunist, she has herself set up as appearing very concerne about the environment, but this is merely a ploy to secure more power. She has been trying to attract Druids, and the Pterrans and Aarakocra into her city. She may even try to extend her hand to the Preservers as well, if she feels that such allies could give her more of an edge against the other Sorcerer-Kings, and possibly also from Rajaat should he get free once again. Her problem is that as much she tries to hide her true nature, the more transparent it becomes to those whom she wishes to ally with.
I like this. Out of all the remaining SK's I feel the Oba is the most ruthless and still self centered. I see her pulling some sort of power move sooner or later.
[*]Andropinis: He is working on his escape, but is also becoming rapidly aware of just how much Rajaat inluences the Black, and feels this influence slowly insinuating itself in him, the longer he remains there (which makes him even further motivated to escape).
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Forgot all about Andy. I'd agree that he would be most aware of Rajaats movements.
I also like the idea hat Irikos is a Champion (but not Dragon), and has begun seeking ways to retaliate against the traitors (the Sorcerer-Kings), recently reawoken by various forces, including some Cerulean Mages.
I agree on the not being a Dragon but not on the Champion thing. I do however feel he's a force in his own right. I'd can see him coming back and trying to bring down the other SK's and attempting to free his master the Warbringer.
I personally think Hamanu will adapt quickly to the current post cerulean storm situation and eventually get imperialistic ambitions. He is the closest (more or less) to both Draj and Raam, a prolonged campaign could conceivably see him in control of the "northern" tablelands.
The whole Dregoth thing is the big spanner in the works here. But if he can survive that, or better, ride out that storm before launching his assault (presuming Dregoth doesn't end up ruling Raam) he can set himself up quite nicely.
Oronis
Given what has occured regarding Korganard, I think Oronis may try to go into hiding for a few centuries before risking this again. Having Oronis as a "villain" keeping the avangion process secret from potentials could be an interesting idea worth pursuing one day.
Dead SKs
I very much think all the current dead SKs should have contingency plans for their return. Given the existence of Wish, Clone, Contingency and Similcrum spells in D&D (not to mention things like True Resurrection), I have never been satisfied with the ease with which any SK has been dealt with. I would have andoprinis doing fun stuff in the Black (like starting a cult of Shadow wizards or something).
Nibenay
Nibenay wants to be a dragon, but I think he is smart enough to agree that the animalistic rage is too big a threat. One potential way of dealing with this is for him to become aware of the Kreen empire. I would imagine he may decide to go insane on say the crimson savanna. That would end the Kreen threat for a while and provide him with an area he doesn't care about to lay waste to. He would simply need to leave behind plans to ensure his return to power in Nibenay when he regains his sanity.
Lalai-Puy
Lalai-Puy: In my eyes, the ultimate opportunist, she has herself set up as appearing very concerne about the environment, but this is merely a ploy to secure more power.
I like this idea and feel it best describes her motivations. I think she may eventually get to a point where she has loyal druids growing "crops" of fast growing plantlife for her to defile (as that is the most efficient use of plants). She doesn't defile because she is evil, but because that is the most efficient way in her mind, and being charismatic and extremely powerful, she can convince a whole bunch of people to her new way of thinking.
Daskinor
I think his madness is too good an opportunity to pass up. When I learned of the existance of Oronis and Daskinor, I justifed it in my mind in this way: After being assaulted by a mad Daskinor, Borys agrees to spare Keltis the levy (I remember somewhere saying he only gets 1000 people from 7 cities) in return for Keltis becomming Daskinor's gaoler (jailer for the americans). To aid in this endeavour, Borys maintains a Psionic Enchantment to keep Daskinor focused within his city-state. It prevents Daskinor from perceiving threats from outside his city-state.
Post cerulean storm, this subtle enchantment now begins to fade (Oronis unwilling to sacrifice life in order to keep it going) and Daskinor is now free to start thinking that the 'real' threat to him lies outside his city. So begin his wacky plans for dealing with them.
Oronis response is to retreat entirely into New Kurn and avoid a potential conflict with a powerful defiler that would reveal his changed self, leaving Daskinor as a new threat to the tablelands.
I like this. Out of all the remaining SK's I feel the Oba is the most ruthless and still self centered. I see her pulling some sort of power move sooner or later.
My views exactly.
Forgot all about Andy. I'd agree that he would be most aware of Rajaats movements.
I believe that if Andy doesn't get out of there soon, he's going to become nothing more than a puppet under Rajaat's control - what I tend to think was the real reason he was imprisoned, rather than killed.
DASKINOR: Paranoia hampers much movement outside of his own city. However, within his city I believe the paranoia may begin to show warrant. Daskinor is most assuredly the weakest of the remaining Sorcerer Kings. Internal struggles for power may soon erupt within his city walls. Although impossible to trace, this might be a result of activities in nearby Kurn.
HAMANU: Hamanu will tighten his grasp on Urik and the nearby region. With the doors to his city closed, soon he will begin issuing patrols of the nearby region. He begins setting up outposts in an attempt to secure a favorable size of land from any non-Urik citizens. This land will be cultivated, and made into farm land, grasslands, and small villages. Eventually this will be secured by a great wall (something along the lines of the “Great Wall of China” comes to mind) the likes of which Athas has not seen.
DREGOTH: Continues his plot to become a god.
NIBENAY: Fearing the change that has begun to blow through the tablelands, Nibenay's lust for power is unabated. Soon he will seek out the next stage of his metamorphosis. His ultimate goal: King of Athas. To fuel his spell he will turn to nearby Gulg.
LALALI-PUY: Knowing now is the time to strike, Lalali-Puy begins making steps to sack Nibenay. She begins recruiting followers under the guise of "Savor of Athas". She must be careful in how she acts, less the Shadow King learn of her plot.
ANDROPONIS: Eventually finds a means to escape the black. However, upon return to his city he begins to change his city state into that of a much more militant nature. He exiles all non-human races from his walls, and executes any half breeds. Soon it becomes clear that Androponis is indeed under the influence of Rajaat, and that rather than escape... he was let free.
(could possibly even toy around w/ the idea of Rajaat possessing the body of Androponis, while his essence is sealed in the hollow.)
Daskinor: Mad as ever, I don't think he's capable of ever really getting himself out of this problem. I have his city divided into even more dangerous and divided factions than Raam has, as his city is being affected by his wild, erratic psychosis, possibly a side effect of his psionic power being based in emotion rather than study (I see him as a Wilder, rather than Psion).
Geez, poor guy, you'd think there'd be room on Athas for a Dragon Psychiatrist PrC... Whew, can you even imagine the size of the pills he'd have to take to get over his problem. :P
I think she may eventually get to a point where she has loyal druids growing "crops" of fast growing plantlife for her to defile (as that is the most efficient use of plants). She doesn't defile because she is evil, but because that is the most efficient way in her mind, and being charismatic and extremely powerful, she can convince a whole bunch of people to her new way of thinking.
Don't forget that the SKs do not defile the plant life around them while within the confines of their city. They all have groves of one kind or another, filled with Trees of Life. While they are near their trees they do not appear to beholders as defiling at all, a characteristic of the Protective Aura ability of the tree (see the monster entry in TotDL).
Although, the SKs never hid the fact they were defilers, probably to enhance the fear of the populace towards their monarch. Maybe the Oba would make an effort in her propaganda to convinve everyone she isn't a defiler, with her trees as main partners in that deception.
Don't forget that the SKs do not defile the plant life around them while within the confines of their city. They all have groves of one kind or another, filled with Trees of Life. While they are near their trees they do not appear to beholders as defiling at all, a characteristic of the Protective Aura ability of the tree (see the monster entry in TotDL).
Although, the SKs never hid the fact they were defilers, probably to enhance the fear of the populace towards their monarch. Maybe the Oba would make an effort in her propaganda to convinve everyone she isn't a defiler, with her trees as main partners in that deception.
...And the fact that she is selfish and evil doesn't mean she wouldn't want to see Athas restored. I believe she is between a quarter to half honest about her goals wanting to see forests everywhere. I mean, what is there to rule if everything's dead.
Even in some of are everyday actions, we may seem generous when in fact, we're looking out for ourselves. I don't know the exact translation from French, but it would be something like "selfish rationality" (
Maybe she sees herself as the never-dying queen of the next Green Age. If only she could get rid of those pesky other sorcerer-kings...
She does seems a bit self-diluted. See maybe just as insane as Daskinor.
NO!!!!! It's unforgivable, Sysane! From now on, you must type all your thread replies in Word , spell-check, then cut & paste them into the reply boards!!!!!!!!!! :D
Sad thing is I did.
But anyway. I think the Oba is fooling herself about being a forest goddess and that she's could be starting to believe in her own hype.
After a few thousand years, with nobody around her daring to contradict her on it, she could very well be convinced of her own divinity. From a GM standpoint, she has most of the earmarks of a power. The ability to grant spells, awesome personal might, and legions of worshippers.
I think Dregoth needs to sit her down and set her straight on the true aspects of divinity.
Ask yourself this:
If a conclave of Champions were to come knocking at their neighbors' doors, saying Rajaat is free and we must stop him while we still have time, who amongst the Champions would not heed the warning?
I think Daskinor would be the only one, and not even because he believes he's a god, but because he's raving mad. The Oba would pack up her divine bags and go fight with the others, omnipotence or not.
From what the Oba does in Dregoth Ascending Part 2 (same as what Nibenay and Hamanu do), I would beg to differ that she doesn't trully believe in her own divinity.
Ask yourself this:
If a conclave of Champions were to come knocking at their neighbors' doors, saying Rajaat is free and we must stop him while we still have time, who amongst the Champions would not heed the warning?
I think Daskinor would be the only one, and not even because he believes he's a god, but because he's raving mad. The Oba would pack up her divine bags and go fight with the others, omnipotence or not.
Could be that she understands the limits of her self perceived divinity.
A lesser god doesn't rush off to take on a greater deity single handedly.
Could be that she understands the limits of her self perceived divinity.
A lesser god doesn't rush off to take on a greater deity single handedly.
Still, I think deep down, she knows exactly what she is... a defiling dragon and not a god. Maybe she likes to play a god and even goes to the point where the line between godhood and dragonhood is thin but I don't believe she's crazy enough think she's a full-fledged god... even a lesser one.
Dregoth... now there's a loon!!!
Thinking he's going to be the God of Athas and everythin'... Huh! When Erdlus have teeth! :PI'd say that (from north to south):
Oronis is going to continue to try to advance along the path of the avangion. With Borys out of the way, he might be a little more overt in recruiting potential avangions.
Daskinor's still crazy.
Hamanu is probably thinking about how an iron mine would look on his mantle and, if Lynn Abbey is to be believed, maybe looking for a way to reverse some of the damage done by Borys and the Cleansing Wars.
Dregoth still wants to be a god and rule a city on the surface.
Nibenay wants to be a full-blown dragon, but doesn't want to go insane and destroy what's left of the world in the process.
Lalalai-Puy might (might) go the Oronis route and begin a shift towards preserver, but that's a HUGE if.
I agree, Daskinor is rogue now no longer in Eldaarich
Oronis runs all three city states there, Old and New Kurn, & Eldaarich
Hamanu is running Raam sort of through Templars and troops
Nibenay is "researching"
Dregoth is planning
Lalai Puy is an Avangion
as is Andropinis, I know he is trapped but he's found the light
Pardon the pun since he is in the Black
Don't forget that the SKs do not defile the plant life around them while within the confines of their city. They all have groves of one kind or another, filled with Trees of Life. While they are near their trees they do not appear to beholders as defiling at all, a characteristic of the Protective Aura ability of the tree (see the monster entry in TotDL).
Although, the SKs never hid the fact they were defilers, probably to enhance the fear of the populace towards their monarch. Maybe the Oba would make an effort in her propaganda to convinve everyone she isn't a defiler, with her trees as main partners in that deception.
Not forgotten... clarification on what I meant to say seems necessary. What I meant was that even personal groves of Trees of Life have their limitations in terms of the power that can be drawn from them. If she can grow crops of plant life specifically for defiling, she effectively increases her power. In much the way corporations today abuse natural resources and use propaganda to justify themselves, I think it would be cool for the Oba to do something similar, namely convince druids to increase local plantlife and then she is 'forced' to defile said new plantlife to protect Gulg or something. All the time she is telling the Druids that it is a necessary evil at this time.
Not forgotten... clarification on what I meant to say seems necessary. What I meant was that even personal groves of Trees of Life have their limitations in terms of the power that can be drawn from them. If she can grow crops of plant life specifically for defiling, she effectively increases her power. In much the way corporations today abuse natural resources and use propaganda to justify themselves, I think it would be cool for the Oba to do something similar, namely convince druids to increase local plantlife and then she is 'forced' to defile said new plantlife to protect Gulg or something. All the time she is telling the Druids that it is a necessary evil at this time.
I don't see many druids buying into this line of reasoning. To defile is to defile, allowing it would eliminate the purpose of their existence. If the Oba was able to pull the wool over their eyes and "hide" her defiling it might work although unlikely.
I tend to believe that Lalali-Puy genuinely wants to see the forest grow. This is probably purely for selfish reasons such as gaining followers, and the undeniably insane idea of one day being labeled the savor of Athas.
1. More Power.
2. More Power.
3. More Power.
I don't see many druids buying into this line of reasoning. To defile is to defile, allowing it would eliminate the purpose of their existence. If the Oba was able to pull the wool over their eyes and "hide" her defiling it might work although unlikely.
Agreed, I just don't see any Druids ever willingly alying themselves with any of the Dragon-Kings, any more than they would any lesser Defiler. Honestly, I also tend to think that Druids would at least be bothered by a Preserver - for the Preserver still takes what they want from nature, and the only different between a Preserver and Defiler is how much they take. Even an evil Druid, would be appalled by the swathe of destruction any Defiler brings with them. In my rendtion of Dark Sun, all druids generally place Arcane spellcasters into very generalized steriotypes, and group them all together (as I tend to think that the average person doesn't necessarily recognize the difference between a Defiler or a Preserver). Now, an individual Druid could potentially be persuaded to accept a Preserver, but even then, there would be a level of distrust and the Druid would constantly have their eye on said Preserver, watching for any misstep that would violate that trust.
I tend to believe that Lalali-Puy genuinely wants to see the forest grow. This is probably purely for selfish reasons such as gaining followers, and the undeniably insane idea of one day being labeled the savor of Athas.
I too tend to think she genuinely wants the forest restored - as it would expand her political power - spreading the "good news" of the Oba, and drawing more followers to her. I don't see her as thinking of herself as literally being a deity, but merely using that cover to expand her territory. She, more than the other SK's in my opinion, is an extremely charismatic individual, and beyond her magical & psionic power, is determined to expand her political power as much as she can. She is willing to decieve anyone and anything she can, just to ensure her superiority. The largest thorn in her side with all of these plans, is the Shadow King and his city - which wishes to tear down the forest that she wants to expand - and she sees that if Nibenay succeeds in chopping the forest completely down, it would effectively destroy her own influence on her people, so she reasserts herself and her agenda to protect the forest, and attract more followers from outlying regions.
Basically, I see her as effectively doing the right thing (restoring the plant life in her region the best she can) for, and this is the key point, all the wrong reasons.
I too tend to think she genuinely wants the forest restored - as it would expand her political power - spreading the "good news" of the Oba, and drawing more followers to her. I don't see her as thinking of herself as literally being a deity, but merely using that cover to expand her territory. She, more than the other SK's in my opinion, is an extremely charismatic individual, and beyond her magical & psionic power, is determined to expand her political power as much as she can. She is willing to decieve anyone and anything she can, just to ensure her superiority. The largest thorn in her side with all of these plans, is the Shadow King and his city - which wishes to tear down the forest that she wants to expand - and she sees that if Nibenay succeeds in chopping the forest completely down, it would effectively destroy her own influence on her people, so she reasserts herself and her agenda to protect the forest, and attract more followers from outlying regions.
Basically, I see her as effectively doing the right thing (restoring the plant life in her region the best she can) for, and this is the key point, all the wrong reasons.
Couldn't agree more. Should the Oba learn of Nibenay redoubling his efforts to gain power (assuming this is the route he goes after the events in the PP series), I would assume the logical move to make would be to strike first. This may not start as direct conflict, but more subtle ways of disrupting the Shadow Kings plans. Of course the logical outcome of these events will lead to all out war after softening up the Shadow King's forces from the inside.
I don't see many druids buying into this line of reasoning. To defile is to defile, allowing it would eliminate the purpose of their existence.
She won't convince many, but a few may fall for something along the lines of "she is not defiling everything. To defeat Nibenay's raiders (who WILL raze the forest if given the opportunity) she needs just a few plants sacrificed for the greater good. This is of course a once off event. She wouldn't do it if Nibenay wasn't forcing her too. She promises to do whatever is necessary to help restore the land once the fight is won." etc
More, if with her many powers she can convince a few druids to accept her as a forest goddess, then doesn't she have a right to defile those plants these druids protect?
I think a DM can have a lot of fun pushing the grey boundaries of this issue. Particularly with a PC druid. Simply assuming all druids idealistically refuse to cooperate with her seems less fun than having a few druids decide that the Oba is the lesser evil and helping her fight Nibenay.
Simply assuming all druids idealistically refuse to cooperate with her seems less fun than having a few druids decide that the Oba is the lesser evil and helping her fight Nibenay.
There's nothing simple about it, like your presumption would suggest. I personally play my game with a lot of hate built up against the Arcane, especially from Druids. The world is as it is because of Arcane magic, the evidence of what Arcane magic is capable of doing, and has done before, is blatantly obvious to anyone who has any of their five senses at their disposal. Arcane magic destroys the vegistation changing it into a total wasteland, that even the Druids are hard-pressed to change back - and when some mediocrum of restoration occurs, another careless Defiler can destroy a century's worth of work in a second. The Druids are fighting for the very survival of what is left in this world. They, more than any other group on the planet, know the great damage that the Arcane has done - both from observation, and from what their Spirits of the Land have told them. To me, these aren't the kind of people who would go into anything even remotely like an alliance with one of the most devistating members of the Arcane community. The Oba may claim she's a forest goddess, but the Spirits of the Land are screaming something completely different about her. Druids get their power from the Spirits of the Land, so even an evil druid, who wants to retain their power, would most likely not want to **** on the Spirits of the Land, and jump into bed with one of the Dragon-Kings.
Oronis even, I'd say, has a difficult time with Druids - partially from his end, with the depth of the guilt he feels for the destruction he caused, he may feel unworthy to truely befriend Druids - even if they recognize him for the good he is attempting to do.
Now, I said Arcane in general, rather than Defilers for a reason - and that once again is that to a Druid, I feel that the difference between a Preserver and a Defiler is only a matter of time. This is reinforced by the Spirits of the Land, whom can recount Presever after Preserver who slipped into Defiling through the long millenia that these Spirits have witnessed, first-hand, the destruction that Defiling has done. This is a significant steriotyping that occurs, and it becomes ingrained into the Druids from the Spirits of the Land, and each Druid would have to slowly overcome this problem. Even so, I've considered adding in a special case fo Druids who have willingly assisted a Defiler, and become Ex-Druids - the Spirits of the Land strip them of all power, and potentially even their very lives. Druids may have a lot in common with the goals and aims of the Veiled Alliance, but the Veiled Alliance has a lot of arcane spellcasters - a lot of potential Defilers in their ranks. As such, the Druids would be forced to never fully trust any of them, if a Druid would even be remotely interested in even hearing about the Veiled Alliance - or the difference between a Defiler or a Preserver in the first place (I see them as rarely even giving a Preserver much of a chance to explain).
Once again - Athas is a harsh world, not one where there's a lot of warm, fuzzy feelings about anyone, least of which a Sorcerer-King. My Druids are vengeful beings, which is why, in my special rules modifications, I give them Rage like a Barbarian/Brute. I also give them the Aspects of Nature Wild Shape variant, as I feel it is more fitting for Dark Sun, especially those who are more prone to anger.
The world is as it is because of Arcane magic, the evidence of what Arcane magic is capable of doing, and has done before, is blatantly obvious to anyone who has any of their five senses at their disposal. Arcane magic destroys the vegistation changing it into a total wasteland, that even the Druids are hard-pressed to change back - and when some mediocrum of restoration occurs, another careless Defiler can destroy a century's worth of work in a second.
I don't run Darksun that way. Arcane magic messes up the environment, sure. But was it responsible for changing the world from the green age into the deserts of present time? To the best of PC knowledge, maybe.
I don't let anyone other than sorcerer-kings have that sort of real knowledge. Spirits of the Land and Elementals are more distant hands off figures who don't really know. So doubt is certainly there, enough to maybe convince a few druids.
To have druids helping the SKs, any SK, would be to suggest they have forgotten what was done to them. The SK were responsible for the jihad against the druids, an attempt at their extiction. Like I said maybe a handful of novice druids might be turned to the Oba's favor, but any experienced and dedicated druid would rather die than serve.
I'm pretty sure its not common knowledge that the Oba's a defiling Sorcerer Queen. The general populace more than likely believes that she's the benevolent forest goddess that she pretends to be. As you said, low to mid level druids are probably naive to this and serve her out of ignorance.
I'm pretty sure its not common knowledge that the Oba's a defiling Sorcerer Queen. The general populace more than likely believes that she's the benevolent forest goddess that she pretends to be. As you said, low to mid level druids are probably naive to this and serve her out of ignorance.
Common populace? No. A Spirit of the Land is most certainly aware of the Oba's history. I do not see and SotL granting spells to druids who worship/follow/assist a defiler. The only way I can see this working is if Lalali-Puy can, in some fasion, enlsave a SotL.
I can, however, see her recruiting presservers to her cause. Perhaps the Veiled Alliance of Gulg and then the branch in Nibenay. Soften them up from the inside, then sack Nibenay, drive the SK out or kill him. Apoint a new leader one who won the citizens' favor for the extraordinary bravory they showed during the war. This leader would, in secret, answer directly to the Oba. So not only did she eliminate one SK, she is then able to keep tabs on all the preservers that might one day stand up against her.
Common populace? No. A Spirit of the Land is most certainly aware of the Oba's history. I do not see and SotL granting spells to druids who worship/follow/assist a defiler. The only way I can see this working is if Lalali-Puy can, in some fasion, enlsave a SotL.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that "all" SotL would be aware of the Oba's true origins. Can you cite the last time that Lalali-Puy actually defiled in public? Last documented occurrence I knew of was when she and the other SKs brawled with Rajaat in Ur-Draxa which is hundreds of miles from her city-state.
SotL are no doubt wise and ancient, but I think the Oba's been very careful to maintain her guise as a nature deity for over several millennia.
Wouldn't a Spirit of the Land be able to detect a defiler simply by the taint around him/her. Some higher level druids (IIRC) have this ability, I would think it would be innate for something of that magnitude.
I think the Oba's smart and mighty enough to obscure her taint thru spells and psionics. She takes great lengths to hide her draconic nature, it could be rationalized that she would do so on all levels beyond just physical appearance.
I think the Oba's smart and mighty enough to obscure her taint thru spells and psionics. She takes great lengths to hide her draconic nature, it could be rationalized that she would do so on all levels beyond just physical appearance.
Possibly but these spirits are very old, very wise, probably with many outdating the sorcerer kings. I don't think she would find it so easy to mask what she truly is. Besides there are enough people that know of the Oba's origins, I would think it rather silly for a Spirit of the Land, a being that has been around for centuries (and very possibly much longer) to not have any idea of what this forest goddess truly is.
I typically think of the SotL being very close to one another. While they do not share one consciousness, they do communicate w/ each other often. Things such as this are sure to be common knowledge amongst them.
No Druid even could agree to have the spirit of the land destroyed, it is the source of their power after all. That's what defiling does on a large enough scale, it destroys the land, thus it destroys the spirit of the sland.
Personally I think that the Oba is probably the most restrained of the SKs when it comes to defiling (except for Orinos of course), otherwise she wouldn't be the only one living in a forest. Since Dragons can draw on the life force of animal and people, and frequently have trees of life, I'm sure she uses those sources to the near exclusion of all others, if not the total exclusion.
As for druids working with her, it is possible in my opinion, though they would never truly trust her, she is still the best of the bad guys from their perspective as tree huggers.
On a side note, I personally enjoy the idea of captive druids forced to tend to the trees of life for an SK so they don't defile the rest of the world.
Possibly but these spirits are very old, very wise, probably with many outdating the sorcerer kings. I don't think she would find it so easy to mask what she truly is. Besides there are enough people that know of the Oba's origins, I would think it rather silly for a Spirit of the Land, a being that has been around for centuries (and very possibly much longer) to not have any idea of what this forest goddess truly is.
I typically think of the SotL being very close to one another. While they do not share one consciousness, they do communicate w/ each other often. Things such as this are sure to be common knowledge amongst them.
True, but whose to say that the SotL even realize that the Oba and the aracockra slaying Champion of Rajaat were one in the same being? Lalali-Puy could have easily dropped out sight after the Cleasning Wars and took on the identy the forest protecting Oba.
If the Oba hasn't given the SotL a reason to suspect why would they question a being that appears to share the same motives as themselves?
True, but whose to say that the SotL even realize that the Oba and the aracockra slaying Champion of Rajaat were one in the same being? Lalali-Puy could have easily dropped out sight after the Cleasning Wars and took on the identy the forest protecting Oba.
If the Oba hasn't given the SotL a reason to suspect why would they question a being that appears to share the same motives as themselves?
After the last couple of posts like that, I can say that you do appear very naïve vis-à-vis the defiling/druid affair.
Druids have history, if just oral, and they teach it to each other. It may or may not cover the great defiling wars and their players, but it surely covers the intricacies of defiling. This knowledge is passed on to spirits of the lands. Spirits speak to each other, sharing knowledge, which also resurfaces elsewhere to be imparted to other druids. Pyreens, possibly the most nature-connected beings in existence, wise and with long memories, share their knowledge directly with the spirits of the land, and with many of them at that, since they are natural wanderers.
As for the case of the SKs, the spirits of the land will feel the hurt of trees of life being tapped by the energy gathering process, as will druids who stop for a second to commune with nature. All druids and spirits of the land know the SKs are defilers, either from first experience, shared experience, or transmitted lore.
As for individual druids in certain circumstances, they could be affected by magic or psionic effects (charms and such) and become blinded from the truth. Now as for morale choices taken by each druid - such as the one taken by the druid Pavek in RaFoaDK who decides to serve Hamanu -, that is up to each individual DM to determine if its possible in their campaign and any ensuing effects it might entail.
After the last couple of posts like that, I can say that you do appear very naïve vis-à-vis the defiling/druid affair.
I'm well aware of it. Can you honestly say that SotL know that the Oba is in fact a defilier outside of player knowledge?
I'm well aware of it. Can you honestly say that SotL know that the Oba is in fact a defilier outside of player knowledge?
Absolutely. Not only do I think any/all SotL would know this but that any mid-high level druid would have this knowledge as well.
Absolutely. Not only do I think any/all SotL would know this but that any mid-high level druid would have this knowledge as well.
And your rationale for this being what exactly?
2. A jihad against druids is not something easily swept under the rug, they would remember, and impart that knowledge.
3. The Oba cannot hide her history from those who witnessed it first hand, ie. the SotL.
4. Not to mention the mark that is left upon her as she is one of the most powerfull defilers the planet has seen.
Druids have history, if just oral, and they teach it to each other. It may or may not cover the great defiling wars and their players, but it surely covers the intricacies of defiling. This knowledge is passed on to spirits of the lands. Spirits speak to each other, sharing knowledge, which also resurfaces elsewhere to be imparted to other druids. Pyreens, possibly the most nature-connected beings in existence, wise and with long memories, share their knowledge directly with the spirits of the land, and with many of them at that, since they are natural wanderers.
As for the case of the SKs, the spirits of the land will feel the hurt of trees of life being tapped by the energy gathering process, as will druids who stop for a second to commune with nature. All druids and spirits of the land know the SKs are defilers, either from first experience, shared experience, or transmitted lore.
1. Spirits of the land out date the SKs, many being of equal power.
I won't argue that they are old. As powerful as the SKs though? If that were true, I would think the SotL would of gathered in mass and could have been able to stop the SKs during the Cleansing Wars.
A jihad against druids is not something easily swept under the rug, they would remember, and impart that knowledge.
Much of Athas' past has been lost, hidden, or forgotten. I agree that they would have some knowledge that "a great injustice befell our kind", but not the exact details behind it.
The Oba cannot hide her history from those who witnessed it first hand, ie. the SotL.
She can if she adopted another identy. I don't think that it would be all that hard for her to do so being one of the most power beings on the world.
Not to mention the mark that is left upon her as she is one of the most powerfull defilers the planet has seen
And as one of the most powerful defiliers on the planet could use easily use that same might to mask her true nature.
Is it so hard to believe that the spirits of the lands are not omniscient about defilers? All those druids (even if they were slaves) still get their spells don't they? And if they did know (which I doubt), couldn't they also know something we don't about the Oba? Like she might actually do some good to the planet.
Just my
PB
Ah guys... it is said in IT that the Oba has allied herself with a druid (Brazin, I think his name is) in the Crescent Forest and convinced him to create a druid council of the sort we used to see in other 2nd ed D&D world. He guards the main water source that gives life to the forest from a grove of trees of life with an Athasian Treant stuck in the middle, many druids work for her tending to her groves outside the city (like Extanbolan in the Grove of Mysteries, and Chakk-a-kak in the grove of Bao-babs) while others tend to the Mopti wall. Other druids are also found working for other SKs in their groves... so maybe a few of them are slaves, but not all of them.
Is it so hard to believe that the spirits of the lands are not omniscient about defilers? All those druids (even if they were slaves) still get their spells don't they? And if they did know (which I doubt), couldn't they also know something we don't about the Oba? Like she might actually do some good to the planet.
Just my
PB
And there's the money shot. Thanks of the reference PB
What also bears to be mentioned is that most druids and SotL care nothing for good or evil being true neutral. Could be that they know that the Oba is evil, but don't care because all they're concerned with is nature and the preservation of the land. Which the Oba seems to share in common with them for all outward appearances.
I won't argue that they are old. As powerful as the SKs though? If that were true, I would think the SotL would of gathered in mass and could have been able to stop the SKs during the Cleansing Wars.
Perhaps many was a bit exagerated. I do believe there to be some in existance.
Much of Athas' past has been lost, hidden, or forgotten. I agree that they would have some knowledge that "a great injustice befell our kind", but not the exact details behind it.
Lost to common people sure, but to those who experienced it.... We are talking about a society of very powerful beings whose history precedes that of the cleansing wars.
She can if she adopted another identy. I don't think that it would be all that hard for her to do so being one of the most power beings on the world.
And as one of the most powerful defiliers on the planet could use easily use that same might to mask her true nature
Possibly so but like I said I find it hard to swallow it would be so easy.
Ah guys... it is said in IT that the Oba has allied herself with a druid (Brazin, I think his name is) in the Crescent Forest and convinced him to create a druid council of the sort we used to see in other 2nd ed D&D world. He guards the main water source that gives life to the forest from a grove of trees of life with an Athasian Treant stuck in the middle, many druids work for her tending to her groves outside the city (like Extanbolan in the Grove of Mysteries, and Chakk-a-kak in the grove of Bao-babs) while others tend to the Mopti wall. Other druids are also found working for other SKs in their groves... so maybe a few of them are slaves, but not all of them.
I don't have the book to reference, but perhaps their goals do align enough to warrant a cooperation between druids and the Oba. I could very well be wrong, but it is fun to debate the subject. I would think that druids in service of any of the other SKs is in fact out of slavery or something similiar. This could be rationalized by them believing they are not actually in service of the SK but in fact serving the land itself, less the ground that the city sits on becomes sterile as well.
Is it so hard to believe that the spirits of the lands are not omniscient about defilers? All those druids (even if they were slaves) still get their spells don't they? And if they did know (which I doubt), couldn't they also know something we don't about the Oba? Like she might actually do some good to the planet.
I don't feel that they are omniscient but they do (should) have ways of detecting the presence of one. This along with the history of SKs makes it hard for me to believe their true nature could be hidden from a SotL. As far as them recieving their spells, it can be rationalized in other ways I suppose.
I don't run Darksun that way. Arcane magic messes up the environment, sure. But was it responsible for changing the world from the green age into the deserts of present time? To the best of PC knowledge, maybe.
I don't let anyone other than sorcerer-kings have that sort of real knowledge. Spirits of the Land and Elementals are more distant hands off figures who don't really know. So doubt is certainly there, enough to maybe convince a few druids.
Did I say ANYTHING about letting my players have real knowledge? No. I said steriotypes, and what the Spirits of the Land tell their Druids. In ALL the flavor materials for Dark Sun, it was shown that the general belief of people is that they blame Arcane magic for EVERYTHING that has gone wrong. It's an easy, obvious answer to the question of how things got this way, especially as one can witness wha a Defiler does, and then go from there.
And there's the money shot. Thanks of the reference PB
What also bears to be mentioned is that most druids and SotL care nothing for good or evil being true neutral. Could be that they know that the Oba is evil, but don't care because all they're concerned with is nature and the preservation of the land. Which the Oba seems to share in common with them for all outward appearances.
Never argued the point of her being evil, only a defiler. Again I could be wrong, however you have to take into consideration the rationalization behind the druids helping the Oba. These ties, should they exist, would not be unconditional as it is not the result of charms, illusions, etc, as they are more of an agreement at a means to an end.
Nibenay being the largest threat to the forest could warrant a temporary alliance i suppose.
Never argued the point of her being evil, only a defiler. Again I could be wrong, however you have to take into consideration the rationalization behind the druids helping the Oba. These ties, should they exist, would not be unconditional as it is not the result of charms, illusions, etc, as they are more of an agreement at a means to an end.
Nibenay being the largest threat to the forest could warrant a temporary alliance i suppose.
I was mentioning the"evil and neutral" aspects to support that druids would work with the Oba so long as their goals were in line.
In DS there is no strong good/evil axis, just a strong preserving/corrupting axis (preserver/defiler & nature-master/nature-bender).
Only if the actual deeds (not her goals) of the Oba reech the same goals as that of the local druids will they ally themselves with her.
Her deeds are probably a) protecting the forest from Nibenese logging and b) surrounding herself with trees of life so her magic doesn't destroy said forest.
Btw it takes a druid and a cleric to create a tree of life, and they can't be transplanted. So either those trees in her groves are relics from past divine casters and their efforts to protect the forest, or they are creations by divine casters to ensure the Oba won't destroy the forest.
The "evil and neutral" aspects of druid and SK won't influence their working together or not. Only deeds and goals matter.
Your understanding, as you explained it to us, was based on knowledge, and how its scarcity (as you saw it) influenced the relationship between SotL/druids and SKs.
The "evil and neutral" aspects of druid and SK won't influence their working together or not. Only deeds and goals matter.
And I still do see it as such. I have a hard time beleiving that a SotL would ally with a being that was, at one time, one of the leading causes of the deforestation of the Tyr Region.
If the SotL is aware of who the Oba really is she must have slung some major BS his way to convince him to work with her.
And I still do see it as such. I have a hard time beleiving that a SotL would ally with a being that was, at one time, one of the leading causes of the deforestation of the Tyr Region.
If the SotL is aware of who the Oba really is she must have slung some major BS his way to convince him to work with her.
It is a matter of goals. The Oba's and the Druids' goals are temporarily aligned so they work along the same path. They are not bound to one another, and I am sure no druid has sworn allegiance to the Oba. They work together out of necessity.
It is a matter of goals. The Oba's and the Druids' goals are temporarily aligned so they work along the same path. They are not bound to one another, and I am sure no druid has sworn allegiance to the Oba. They work together out of necessity.
I agree on that. I was never arguing that point. The conversation (not the thread) was originally about druids not working with the Oba. I was providing reasons how and why the could or would as well as that the SotL may not realize who the Oba really is. I don't think I said anything in regards to them swearing fealty to her.
I agree on that. I was never arguing that point. The conversation (not the thread) was originally about druids not working with the Oba. I was providing reasons how and why the could or would as well as that the SotL may not realize who the Oba really is. I don't think I said anything in regards to them swearing fealty to her.
Yeah I understand, I was just clarifying. More so I was sticking to my point that the druids and the SotL are fully aware of who they are dealing w/.
btw, thanks Sysane you have helped me kill a few hours of work today ;)
btw, thanks Sysane you have helped me kill a few hours of work today ;)
No problem. Why work when you debate important issues such as this ;)
And I still do see it as such. I have a hard time beleiving that a SotL would ally with a being that was, at one time, one of the leading causes of the deforestation of the Tyr Region.
If the SotL is aware of who the Oba really is she must have slung some major BS his way to convince him to work with her.
Well, I definitely agree with this. Except I don't think it's possible to sling that much BS at the SoL. I guess it stems from what my personal ideas for SotL's is. Lemme explain.
I personally think that SotL's are "collective" beings. The original SotL's are like the beings found in the MM2. However, they had made a pact with the Elemental powers, to ensure the balance between earth, air, fire, and water. This pact provided these SotL's with the ability to grant spells to Druids. When Psionics entered the scene, some Druids, who were also Psionic, became eligible to develop into a sort of extension of the Spirit of the Land that the Druid followed. These were granted the ability to advance and become a "Spirit of the Land" - an extension of the original, sharing power, knowledge, and experience with that being. Over millenia, multiple Druids have joined with and become Spirits of the Land themselves, resulting in a communal, collective existence with he other Druids who have merged with that Spirit of the Land, and the original being. Each collective is independent of each other, and each being that has joined this existence still retains their individual mind, but the whole increases in power.
I also believe that Dragons, with their ability to consume more than just plant energy, have the ability to absorb and kill Spirits of the Land to fuel their spells - especially in the animalistic rampage stage. Not necessarily out of any malice towards these beings they aren't completely aware of, but merely as an after-effect of the mass devistation the Dragons in that state bring. Borys slaughtered, in my view, a vast number of Spirits of the Land from this, and as a result, no Spirit of the Land ever will forget what was done. They are also very much aware that all the Sorcerer-Kings are Dragons in various stages (except for Oronis) - able to see through the deception that the Dragon-Kings put up so valiantly, much in the same way that a Dragon could recognize an Avangion, even if the Dragon doesn't understand what he is looking at (Basically - Advanced Beings can recognize other Advanced Beings for what they are). And, many of the Druids who became part of the Spirits of the Land, were around during the purge/war that the Champions of Rajaat, now Sorcerer-Kings waged upon the Druids. That's not exactly something someone forgets - especially when a handful of different accounts of such atrocities are held withing the memories of each Spirit of the Land collective.
Now, where does that leave the Oba? She's a Dragon. She is capable of wielding the exact same swathe of destruction Borys did. SotL's already loathe and hate Defilers, but far worse, they despise Dragons. The Oba is a ticking time-bomb, and the SotL's don't know when she'll go off. You don't play catch with a nuclear warhead, and in the same way, they don't even remotely toy around with, or ally with in the slightest, a Dragon. In fact, the SotL's would most likely find that destroying a Dragon far better suits their purposes - but even then, they wouldn't ally with one Dragon just to dispose of another. The only Sorcerer-King that has ever truly changed his colors is Oronis, and the SotL's still keep a wary eye on him, even though what he is doing is very good for the world.
Druids get their power from the Spirits of the Land, due to the original pact of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. And what the SotL's give, they can take away. The Druids aren't concerned with good or evil, law or chaos, so much as they are about the protection and defense of nature. As such, Defilers destroy nature, Dragons destroy nature on a grander scale. The SotL's know what's a Dragon and what isn't, even if the Druids themselves don't know. The SotL's simply forbid their Druids from working with a Dragon, and it's left at that.
At the same time - yes, the Oba invited a Druid to help potect the forest. The Druid merely finds this convenient to continue the defense of nature - and really is not doing this for the Oba. The Druid won't go to war for the Oba - and would defend the forest from both her, and Nibs' forces if needs be. The odds would be that there would have been a Druid or two in the forest anyway, doing their part, even without Lalai-Puy's consent (they might end up dead faster that way).
Well, I definitely agree with this. Except I don't think it's possible to sling that much BS at the SoL. I guess it stems from what my personal ideas for SotL's is. Lemme explain...
What is it that you actually agree with though? I read your entire post, which is an interesting concept, but don't see what you agree with?
I also believe that Dragons, with their ability to consume more than just plant energy, have the ability to absorb and kill Spirits of the Land to fuel their spells - especially in the animalistic rampage stage. Not necessarily out of any malice towards these beings they aren't completely aware of, but merely as an after-effect of the mass devistation the Dragons in that state bring.
I'm working on a Wondrous Location for the Equipment Guide (modeled a bit after the Arms and Equipment Guide as well as Magic of Faerûn), called a Defiled Waste: a large patch of defiled soil, square-miles in area. Those are the sites of great CW or Jihad battles. I want to include that the local SotL has been severly weakened and turned mad by it, it manifests as a creature of ash that attacks any living creature within the waste.
Any ideas, Xlor?
I'm working on a Wondrous Location for the Equipment Guide (modeled a bit after the Arms and Equipment Guide as well as Magic of Faerûn), called a Defiled Waste: a large patch of defiled soil, square-miles in area. Those are the sites of great CW or Jihad battles. I want to include that the local SotL has been severly weakened and turned mad by it, it manifests as a creature of ash that attacks any living creature within the waste.
Any ideas, Xlor?
Not sure where Athas.org is at on creating SotL but would it be possible for a druid, turned SotL, to become a unique type of undead. Might be interesting.
I thought some about that:
I think Hamanu's love for his city is so powerful, and his belief in the city as a living being he must take care of so profound (even though its a metaphor), that a nascent SotL appeared in his city, inhabiting it walls like a SotL of nature inhabits the grass and stones of the land.
Even though SotL and SKs are anathema to each other, this particual SotC (we should call it a Spirit of the City) is the very essence of Urik. And one thing is sure from reading RaFoaDK, is that Hamanu is the heart and soul of the city, thus the main component of Urik in par with its people. Considering that, this SotC would not work by the same rules as other SotL, i.e. hate dragons and such. The city can't be defiled.
Not sure where Athas.org is at on creating SotL but would it be possible for a druid, turned SotL, to become a unique type of undead. Might be interesting.
An undead SotL...interesting.
It would be about 1/3 of normal power though, and lost most of its Int.
An undead SotL...interesting.
It would be about 1/3 of normal power though, and lost most of its Int.
Couldn't it be transformed into something along the lines of a Kaisharga or other unique undead as it once was a humaniod at one time? Take Dregoth and flip the idea into an evil, chaotic, undead, still bound to it's sterile patch of land. It attempts to convince would be druids into their service, eventually corrupting them and turning it against whatever it viewed as the source of it's failure.
...I dunno just throwing ideas out.
So if Xlor has its way, and druid ABs can become SotL, will they still be gun-ho adventurers, manifesting as humanoids and preaching the good word and blasting the crap out of defilers, or will they be like the current SotL, i.e. creatures that rarely manifest themselves, even when threatened?
The SotLs I see for the Defiled Wastes are not ABs per say, just normal SotL, more akin to what is in MMII. They manifest a lot because they are mad and want to kill everything that moves. Making them undead could also be very good. They would look like an ash creature with the stats of a Huge fire elemental with an Int of 3-5.
I do like Xlor's ideas, but I hope there's room for SotLs that aren't, mentally, still human beings.
I do like Xlor's ideas, but I hope there's room for SotLs that aren't, mentally, still human beings.
Could be that younger SotL still adventure some what, and take a more active roll in Athasian affairs. As the SotL gets older (advances to higher levels) they become less inclined to manifest themselves. Could even be that the higher level they get it takes more out of them to manifest a physical form.
Just throwing out some ideas. Maybe we should start a new thread?
Defiler/druid relations could be based on a "I will defile, but never within your guarded land, if you work for me." type thing. It is unfortunate that defiling will occur at all, but surely it is better to protect one's own SotL than to impotently oppose a SK.
About young vs old SotL, that's not what I was thinking. I meant some SotL are ABs while others would be monsters naturally occuring on Athas. Those last would be more animal-like, more force of nature than conscious mind, with basic drives of protection and nurturing. That's the SotL I want for the Defiled Wastes.
About young vs old SotL, that's not what I was thinking. I meant some SotL are ABs while others would be monsters naturally occuring on Athas. Those last would be more animal-like, more force of nature than conscious mind, with basic drives of protection and nurturing. That's the SotL I want for the Defiled Wastes.
I would think those force-of-nature type SotL would be the most ancient of their kind dating back to the early part of the Green Age. With each passing era they lost more and more of their mortal consciousness as they became more entwined with the land.
I have a problem with Xlor's SotL ideas: the current SotL is an invisible distributed entity covering a vast area. It can manifest itself with the characteristics of the land, becoming a kind of earth elemental with grass and stuff on it.
So if Xlor has its way, and druid ABs can become SotL, will they still be gun-ho adventurers, manifesting as humanoids and preaching the good word and blasting the crap out of defilers, or will they be like the current SotL, i.e. creatures that rarely manifest themselves, even when threatened?
The Druid AB's are SotL's. Check out Earth, Air, Fire, & Water it very pointedly states that is what they are. Druid AB's become kinda restricted, limited to specific locales. My idea is that a player becomes part of a local SotL (rather than a completely new and independent entity), integrating the SotL's that already were written up in the MM2. They can adventure and carry on, but are weakened if not near the locale that they are the Spirit for. When in their requisite locale (the domain the Spirit of the Land "controls") they are at full power, and have access to everything. This way, a Druid AB, which before would become more or less an NPC, my idea maes it possible for them to actually continue adventuring, but still have the AB powers (I'm thinking that away from their specific locale, they have many abilities and features akin to the Pyreen - as I feel many Pyreen would have become the first Druid AB's).
The SotLs I see for the Defiled Wastes are not ABs per say, just normal SotL, more akin to what is in MMII. They manifest a lot because they are mad and want to kill everything that moves. Making them undead could also be very good. They would look like an ash creature with the stats of a Huge fire elemental with an Int of 3-5.
Which, m idea would be that the SotL's that are found in the MM2, are the basis - the sort of core of the whole thing. They also are extremely limited in number, and gain in power as Druids achieve the AB process. Now - I do like the idea of a form of undead as a result of complications due to defiling. maybe the process of becoming undead, has made i so that the individual beings who joined the SotL, no longer are individual at all, and can't "break off" to becoming their own being. Or maybe they can, and there is hundreds of undead spirits that come and go through that region, sort of working together in their own insideous way.
I do like Xlor's ideas, but I hope there's room for SotLs that aren't, mentally, still human beings.
The individual Druids who become part of the SotL whole, retain their individual identities, of a sort. When they enter the land that the entire collective being of the SotL they are part of controls, they gain power, and more or less lose their identity, becoming part of the collective. However, they can break off, and separate from the whole, allowing them to work independent, and more or less adventure, while retainng some access to the minds, the memories, and the experiences of the others within the collective being. Not to sound too geekish, but for those who are familiar with Star Trek, think of the shapeshifters, the "Founders" from Star Trek (head of the Dominion, Odo was one of the species) - when they joined the "great link" they were not individual, but part of the whole. However, they could separate out, and become individuals at will. That same kind of process, I would see for the SotL's. The core being - the original SotL - the being that there is a write-up in the MM2 for, that being basically is what expands in power as more Druid/psionic characters achieve AB status under it's power, they become part of the very being that they recieved power from.
My rendition is an attempt to merge the ideas of the Spirits of the Land according to the books from 2E (the rulebooks), and the Spirits of the Land that are documented and defined within the Monster Manual 2. In 2E, each Druid/Psionicist that became an AB, would become trapped to a specific locale, unable to leave, but becomes more or less lord of that domain. The Spirits of the Land from the Monster Manual 2, however, aren't epic creatures, they are powerful, but are significantly weaker than the 2E Advanced Beings from Dark Sun. So, I made an effort to merge the two, and also enhance the AB a bit, in an effort to making something that players would be actually interested in becoming.
The individual Druids who become part of the SotL whole, retain their individual identities, of a sort. When they enter the land that the entire collective being of the SotL they are part of controls, they gain power, and more or less lose their identity, becoming part of the collective. However, they can break off, and separate from the whole, allowing them to work independent, and more or less adventure, while retainng some access to the minds, the memories, and the experiences of the others within the collective being. Not to sound too geekish, but for those who are familiar with Star Trek, think of the shapeshifters, the "Founders" from Star Trek (head of the Dominion, Odo was one of the species) - when they joined the "great link" they were not individual, but part of the whole. However, they could separate out, and become individuals at will. That same kind of process, I would see for the SotL's. The core being - the original SotL - the being that there is a write-up in the MM2 for, that being basically is what expands in power as more Druid/psionic characters achieve AB status under it's power, they become part of the very being that they recieved power from.
Sounds similar to the Zuwan in Nibenay.
Does anyone have any more thoughts about any of the SK's plans other than the Oba?
Is the Zuwan a closely related entity to the Zwuun? :D
I'm not going to hold myself responsible for the correct spelling of a made up word. Grrrrr.....
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King sucked big time.
It made no sense; the plot was stupid. I find it hard to believe that woman did any research into Hamanu's background and history or the history of DS.
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King sucked big time.
It made no sense; the plot was stupid. I find it hard to believe that woman did any research into Hamanu's background and history or the history of DS.
Actually, she was blocked out of any information from the game development, and had to rely only on the novels that had already been published. TSR was really bad with letting there be communication of any kind. For what she had, she made some pretty good ideas. There was a download of her notes as she went into making the book and through the process of writing it, which sheds a lot of insight on different aspects of it, and explains much of the confusion... which summed up, is less of a failure on her part, and more of a failure in a huge way in communication on TSR's part (which she's not the only person to step forward on that, and it is one of the big reasons that company failed).
For the record, there is much of her book I like. There is elements that are hard to explain and don't make sense, I basically ignore the harder to swallow parts, but I definitely keep the parts I like and integrate them into my personal views of Dark Sun/Athas... much of which my players never are privy to (as I tend to be very miserly on information in general to my players).
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... There was a download of her notes as she went into making the book and through the process of writing it, which sheds a lot of insight on different aspects of it, and explains much of the confusion...
[CUT]
I'm really interessed in these notes. Is this download avaiable? Do you have a link to it?
Angelo
I know I might not be the best one to talk but, wasn't this thread supposed to be about the motivations and plans of the SKs, not a discussion about the spirits of the land or even a cascading thread about the Oba's relationship with druids.
Does anyone have any more thoughts about any of the SK's plans other than the Oba?
Ok, hmm...
Dregoth: After the whole "godhood spell fiasco", I tend to run wit the notion that he goes into hiding, and focuses his energies on becoming a fully-developed stage-10 dragon. rather than becoming a god, he decides he is going to eliminate everything and everyone who will not be part of the new world he wants to unfold, however he knows that he is currently outnumbered. I tend to have Dregoth sending agents through the Tablelands, setting things into motion to kill off all non-Dray -- slowly poisoning food and water, extending support to defilers to eat away & erode at the land rendering it uninhabitable, etc. We're talking about an undead dragon here of immense power, so these are not immediate plans, rather slowly developing schemes as Dregoth devises ways to eliminate the real problems in his plan -- his sibling Sorcerer-Kings.
Hamanu: What has worked for the King of Urik in the past, still holds true today. Unswerving adherence to the laws he devised, ruling Urik with an iron fist, and defending his city-state from any external assaults.
Nibenay: Not certain really. I'd guess he has been trying to "win the hearts" of his people -- well, as much as can be expected from him. He has stepped out of the shadows and now is becoming more and ore prominent a figure in Nibenay. Rarely donning a human appearance, he walks freely among his people in his metamorphosized form, building up Nibenay's resources, military, and defenses (Dregoth is like.... right next door, and this worries him a bit).
Daskinor: A madman is as a madman does.
Oronis: I've always wanted to set him up as the ultimate tragic hero... that he becomes the shining hope of Athas only to have it snuffed out at the cusp of the pinnacle of his achievements. I don't know if I want him to die, or to become corrupted again and fall back into his old ways. But I definitely don't want his vision of the future of Athas to actually ever take place... no matter how good it is.
Actually, she was blocked out of any information from the game development, and had to rely only on the novels that had already been published. TSR was really bad with letting there be communication of any kind. For what she had, she made some pretty good ideas. There was a download of her notes as she went into making the book and through the process of writing it, which sheds a lot of insight on different aspects of it, and explains much of the confusion... which summed up, is less of a failure on her part, and more of a failure in a huge way in communication on TSR's part (which she's not the only person to step forward on that, and it is one of the big reasons that company failed).
For the record, there is much of her book I like. There is elements that are hard to explain and don't make sense, I basically ignore the harder to swallow parts, but I definitely keep the parts I like and integrate them into my personal views of Dark Sun/Athas... much of which my players never are privy to (as I tend to be very miserly on information in general to my players).
I will take your world for it that there were reasons for the woman’s ignorance about the past (not to mention the actual age) of Hamanu
I still believe it is one of the most poorly written DS books out there as its attempt to portray Hamanu as a sympathetic tyrant who does not want to be bad or something as lame. This is Dark Sun. It is a dangerous and cruel world and even the heroes of Tyr are morally ambiguous which is what I like about it. I guess I just don’t like her style of writing. She wrote about the Simbul who is one of my favorite forgotten realms character and the plot, not to mention the name, of the book makes zero sense just like the rise and fall of a dragon king.
I did look up the release dates of some of the common accessories which further flesh out the general history of the sorcerer kings like City by the Silt Sea with Dregoth and Dragon Kings and they were both released before her book was so I don’t see why she could not have incorporated the info in those books into hers.
Ok, hmm...
Dregoth: After the whole "godhood spell fiasco", I tend to run wit the notion that he goes into hiding, and focuses his energies on becoming a fully-developed stage-10 dragon. rather than becoming a god, he decides he is going to eliminate everything and everyone who will not be part of the new world he wants to unfold, however he knows that he is currently outnumbered. I tend to have Dregoth sending agents through the Tablelands, setting things into motion to kill off all non-Dray -- slowly poisoning food and water, extending support to defilers to eat away & erode at the land rendering it uninhabitable, etc. We're talking about an undead dragon here of immense power, so these are not immediate plans, rather slowly developing schemes as Dregoth devises ways to eliminate the real problems in his plan -- his sibling Sorcerer-Kings.
Hamanu: What has worked for the King of Urik in the past, still holds true today. Unswerving adherence to the laws he devised, ruling Urik with an iron fist, and defending his city-state from any external assaults.
Nibenay: Not certain really. I'd guess he has been trying to "win the hearts" of his people -- well, as much as can be expected from him. He has stepped out of the shadows and now is becoming more and ore prominent a figure in Nibenay. Rarely donning a human appearance, he walks freely among his people in his metamorphosized form, building up Nibenay's resources, military, and defenses (Dregoth is like.... right next door, and this worries him a bit).
Daskinor: A madman is as a madman does.
Oronis: I've always wanted to set him up as the ultimate tragic hero... that he becomes the shining hope of Athas only to have it snuffed out at the cusp of the pinnacle of his achievements. I don't know if I want him to die, or to become corrupted again and fall back into his old ways. But I definitely don't want his vision of the future of Athas to actually ever take place... no matter how good it is.
Then Dark Sun would not be Dark Sun now would it. I dont want the planet to return to the Green Age let alone the Blue, though I do love contrasts and certain regions on Athas which are like that are neat.
I think Daskinor should be killed, he seemed to be thrown in as an afterthought in the new edition of DS when it came out and does not seem to be doing anything cool.
I would have Oronis leave Kurn and just keep an eye on it from afar while he wanders Athas looking for knowledge and new students...maybe have him and Sadira become chums.
I liked the earlier idea of Hamanu increasing his territory and building a huge wall to block out the rabble as very much like him.
Nibenay will continue to advance as a dragon and with his templar Siemhouk he will control the bestial rage and become the most advanced dragon next to Dregoth.
I see the Oba as the wisest of the SKs (and Nibinay as the smartest) and she will realise that contiuning to defile the planet serves no ones interest in the long run and will drain energy from people instead of plants, maybe she will become the most unlikely earth defender athas has ever seen.
I like the idea of Andropinis coming back from the Black under Rajaats influence and being a major problem in the future.
I dont care for the idea of Atzetuk becoming a SK and think that Draj should be taken over by Dregoth, after all Raam needs grain and Draj has lots of it so I think Dregoth should decend on the city and take it over shortly after his godhood scheme comes to an end. Or this thought just occured to me, Dregoth could make Atzetuk his puppet, keeping him alive the same way his head templar was made immortal and his templars getting their spells from Dregoth and not Atzetuk, but then I think someone already came up with that idea so disregard
Then Dark Sun would not be Dark Sun now would it. I dont want the planet to return to the Green Age let alone the Blue, though I do love contrasts and certain regions on Athas which are like that are neat.
Agreed here.
I think Daskinor should be killed, he seemed to be thrown in as an afterthought in the new edition of DS when it came out and does not seem to be doing anything cool.
I would suggest holding any judgments on Daskinor until you see the supplement about him and his territory coming out soon by Athas.org. there has been considerable effort put into the project, and it is impressive. They definitely won me over on the Daskinor thing.
I would have Oronis leave Kurn and just keep an eye on it from afar while he wanders Athas looking for knowledge and new students...maybe have him and Sadira become chums.
I dunno, personally, I see Sadira as the unwitting pawn in Rajaat's schemes (where did she get her power from? Oh yeah, Rajaat's minions). She's a bit too naive, and has a pretty reckless side to her that I personally don't see meshing at all with Oronis.
that said, I see Oronis has having a tragic existence. He's too good for Athas, that is, he's the summation of all of the hopes of Athas ever returning to its former glory. In my campaigns, he's also refused to teach anyone else the path of the Avangion, after the incredible failures and deaths of everone else he taught the process to (which he holds himself personally accountable for their deaths).
I liked the earlier idea of Hamanu increasing his territory and building a huge wall to block out the rabble as very much like him.
Yeah, it is very Hamanu.
Nibenay will continue to advance as a dragon and with his templar Siemhouk he will control the bestial rage and become the most advanced dragon next to Dregoth.
Possibly.
I see the Oba as the wisest of the SKs (and Nibinay as the smartest) and she will realise that contiuning to defile the planet serves no ones interest in the long run and will drain energy from people instead of plants, maybe she will become the most unlikely earth defender athas has ever seen.
I ignored her intentionally as per the original request I was responding to. Personally, I don't see her as very wise (but she is crafty), or very good. I see her as an opportunist, exploiting whatever she can for her own personal interests. I don't see her as really being on the side of Druids or of nature in general -- I see her as acting a part, possibly seeing the Druids, Clerics, and maybe even Preservers as a resource that her peers otherwise neglect and ignore -- she's simply trying to get their allegiance so that she can call upon them whenever she opposes (or is attacked by) her peers. She's seductive, and very convincing (I'd give her a very high Charisma bonus, among other things 0-- probably make her a telepath Psion), but she is not, by any stretch of the imagination, good. I keep her solidly in the Lawful Evil standing of the other dragon-kings, and not about to change from that (however, I'd say she's closer to Neutral Evil than the others, just like I'd say Hamanu's closer to Lawful Neutral than the others; Daskinor is of a Chaotic Evil nature, of course).
I like the idea of Andropinis coming back from the Black under Rajaats influence and being a major problem in the future.
I dunno, I like the idea of him being trapped in the Black, and only able to communicate with his minions "from afar"... never really getting away from Rajaat's prison.
I dont care for the idea of Atzetuk becoming a SK and think that Draj should be taken over by Dregoth, after all Raam needs grain and Draj has lots of it so I think Dregoth should decend on the city and take it over shortly after his godhood scheme comes to an end. Or this thought just occured to me, Dregoth could make Atzetuk his puppet, keeping him alive the same way his head templar was made immortal and his templars getting their spells from Dregoth and not Atzetuk, but then I think someone already came up with that idea so disregard
I don't care for Atzetuk becoming a SK either. To me, it's just a really weak idea.
I'm really interessed in these notes. Is this download avaiable? Do you have a link to it?
Angelo
Make a search for "Lynn Abbey" in the Dark Sun Forum Archives.
Agreed here.
I would suggest holding any judgments on Daskinor until you see the supplement about him and his territory coming out soon by Athas.org. there has been considerable effort put into the project, and it is impressive. They definitely won me over on the Daskinor thing.
Really? well then I stand corrected and look forward to reading that then.
Though when it all comes down to it I would really like them to move beyond the Tyr Region and explore other areas like to the far south, west and east. According to some world map I saw somewhere there is a green peninsula to the far east that I would like to hear more about.
Make a search for "Lynn Abbey" in the Dark Sun Forum Archives.
thanks Pennarin
I've finded the post in the erchive ad followed the link but the refered domain is expired and so I'm unable to find the notes
Ok, just replace the old domain with "forums.gleemax.com"
Though when it all comes down to it I would really like them to move beyond the Tyr Region and explore other areas like to the far south, west and east. According to some world map I saw somewhere there is a green peninsula to the far east that I would like to hear more about.
That world map isn't official. and Brian's maps do wonders (Athas Cosmology thread) for getting the creative juices flowing as to the various outlying areas of the world.
Athas.org is going to work on what most people are looking for -- conversion of the rules from 2E -> 3.5E (and probably to 4E when it finally comes around), and development of the areas which are known, but underdeveloped -- like the northern cities of Kurn and Eldaaritch, and the Deadlands to the South.
Personally, I have my own takes on what's outside of the "known world", which does change as time goes along and I see/read something that sounds like it may be worthwhile to incorporate into my version of Athas. I've been actually deviating away from the D&D rules entirely as of late, finding them unmanageable especially at the higher levels... Then again, it has been a while since I've actually done any roleplaying at all, work keeps me busy, and what work doesn't occupy, World of Warcraft and my Wii does. I just haven't been motivated lately to really pursue getting together a bunch of strangers to forge into a roleplaying group where I live.
Ok, just replace the old domain with "forums.gleemax.com"
Many thanks sir, this time I've been able to reach these informations.
Angelo