Night Below and Greyhawk - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Night Below and Greyhawk

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 11, 2005 13:06:40 I have read that this box set was originally intended to be a Greyhawk product and after observing several Greyhawk references (most notably a lost cult/temple of Tharizdun), I am convinced it would be good fodder for any underdark campaign set in Greyhawk.

Have any of you run this one and, if so, how did it work for your campaigns?
#2
ripvanwormer
May 11, 2005 13:27:09 http://www.bluearch.net/night/
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/NightBelow/
#3
samwise
May 19, 2005 18:01:51 Hmmm . . . I missed this before.

I joined a Night Below campaign in late 1999. When 3E came out in 2000, we converted. In early 2001 (I believe) the DM had work issues, and I took over the campaign, my character becoming an NPC. (Rather necessary as he was the only cleric in the party.) When 3.5 came out, I did a partial conversion, altering a few things as needed, but not really worrying about the players being overwhelmed by it. (Or having them go out and buy new books.)
The campaign then continued until early 2004, when they finally finished. It was a chat based game, run right here on the WotC chat server, with most of using Cheetachat to connect.
Of the players that started, only one lasted to the end, as I joined 3 or 4 sessions in. We went through 10-15 players all told, with 5 finishing. Of those, 4 have continued to play, going through ToEE, and now a mini-campaign.

As for issues:

Character Conversion
A royal mess. The changes in relevance of stats, as well as the conversion guide for exceptional had very drastic effects. New characters fared much better.

Module Conversion
Very difficult. I did all the conversions off the cuff. Of course WotC now has most of the things converted themselves, but that didn't help me back then. In particular, Grell and Aboleth Savants are now in Lords of Madness, and Hook Horrors are in MM2. That wasn't the real problem however.
When converting to 3E, a lot of encounters became well nigh absurd. Masses of trolls, swarms of grell, hoards of hook horrors, all add up to enough xp to make the PCs epic level before part 2 is finished. I solved that by simply tossing out the xp rules and telling the players they leveled when I felt like it.
It also provided a lot of difficulty when dealing with CR. I wound up not lowering the levels on the Kuo-toa, and used the Mystic Theurge for the Aboleth Savants. It made them nasty. The party surprised the Kuo-toa dukes and trashed them, but the unsurprised Kuo-toa king slaughtered one per round until he got talisman of ultimate good-ed. Likewise any prepared Aboleth Savant was just wrong, especially if you use spells from supplements. And you really don't want to know the adjusted CR on them.
Other than that, even done fast and loose (that is, a few hours before the session), conversion wasn't that difficult. You need to watch for a number of spells that no longer exist, particularly several that are near critical for success in certain quests and areas. And you need to watch for the usual power combos that occur in D20.

The Different Sections
Part 1 went fairly smoothly. We didn't do much more than half of the quests, so we were rather underpowered heading into the Underoerth. That was less of a problem than expected, as the players focused on several important things in the 3E rules very quickly, especially tanglefoot bags. (I eventually made them set up their own alchemists lab as they were using so many.)
We developed a number of very intriguing role-playing elements from that first section, and nearly were diverted from the entire quest to just hanging out in Haranshire.

Part 2 was when things began getting sticky. The most critical thing being it is a big jump to mass slaughter. There is some role-play involved, but for the most part it is an excercise in body counts. And some of those, as I noted above, don't convert very well. Four grells means forty attacks, means a near guaranteed hit on two or more characters, means lots of paralyzed characters, means a quick death. Be prepared for the players to develop some extreme feelings towards various monsters during this section, and to have less than pleasant attitudes towards them. Don't expect many Kuo-toa to survive long enough to flee the collapsing city. Also be prepared for them to want to break off and resupply repeatedly, especially as D20 is so dependent on upgrades by level and expendables. They will burn through as much expendables as you let them have, and probably want to go through more. Also, be prepared to limit the upgrades they can purchase. There are a number of weapon enhancements that are absurdly powerful for their cost, and players can easily come to overpower most secondary encounters in unpleasant ways if you don't watch them. However, you must let them buy item upgrades. Not doing so is an outright death sentence in D20.
As a note, at the end of this, virtually the entire party was dead. As a result, we got three new characters to finish out the module, and sent some long time NPCs off into legend.

For Part 3 we hit the main problem with the D20 system, that being the breakdown it sufferes above 10-13th level. The system really doesn't handle play that well, with too many encounters becoming win initiative or die situations. Also, the campaign was beginning to wear. Four years is a long time, and some of the side quests were just tedious at that time, no matter how necessary. The ixzan are a prime example, being little more than fireball bait to characters high enough level to survive the rest of the Sunless Sea, but still something that needs to be done. Also really delving into the intricacies of Shaboath did not work well in a chat based game. Even with scans of the maps, it was very difficult to convey the mood without direct contact and discussion.

Overall, it was an incredible experience. As I said, the campaign went on for over four years, through two and a half editions of the rules. And most of the group that finished it is still together, making us one incredibly long lived group. And I could remember enough stories to fill multiple webpages from it. If you are willing to do the work, I'd recommend this campaign to everyone. But you need to do a lot of work.
#4
Mortepierre
May 20, 2005 2:22:34 Currently running it as part of my GH campaign.

A few things..

1) 3.XE conversion of part I and III are available at ENWorld (part I is 3.0 and part III is 3.5E). Keep in mind that those doing these conversions did so before some of the newest WotC books were published (i.e. LoM) so the stats may not be 'canon'

2) I urge you to read the story hour published by Seravin (also at ENWorld) about this module. Makes for a good reading and gives great insight about how to run it without going crazy

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=42399&page=1&pp=40

3) I tied the two illithid factions to the two sects of the SB. Those helping the aboleths are backed up by the Black Brotherhood who wants in exchange access to the old temple of Tharizdun on the shore of the subterranean sea. The 'rebel' illithids are working with the Scarlet Brotherhood and exchange information about 'grafts' and how to modify life-forms

4) Samwise is on to something but IMHO exaggerates a bit. It's true that upgrading the monsters & NPC to 3.XE will result in a massive amount of xp. Your team will most likely have an average level of 14-15th by the time they finish part II. That said, I think those levels will be sorely needed in part III! The aboleth city is one huge trap filled to the brim with high-level spellcasters, fiends, huge golems, etc.. and once the players are inside, it will be very difficult for them to get any rest or to be able to retreat. Thus, they'll need the extra power if they are to make it.

The magical disjunction they get hit with right before the very last encounter is rather nasty, especially if they are high level because it means most of their precious protection spells will go 'poof!'
#5
samwise
May 20, 2005 9:32:24
4) Samwise is on to something but IMHO exaggerates a bit. It's true that upgrading the monsters & NPC to 3.XE will result in a massive amount of xp. Your team will most likely have an average level of 14-15th by the time they finish part II. That said, I think those levels will be sorely needed in part III! The aboleth city is one huge trap filled to the brim with high-level spellcasters, fiends, huge golems, etc.. and once the players are inside, it will be very difficult for them to get any rest or to be able to retreat. Thus, they'll need the extra power if they are to make it.

The magical disjunction they get hit with right before the very last encounter is rather nasty, especially if they are high level because it means most of their precious protection spells will go 'poof!'

Well that's the thing.
If you go by the module, it should top out around 11th-12th level. Trying to stick with that was impossible. If you just let it go, then yeah, get to 15th level and don't worry about it. But then a number of encounters right before the city will be very irrelevant except for the clues they can provide.
And yes, the city can be a major killer depending on how you convert it.
#6
zombiegleemax
May 20, 2005 21:01:40 I found the box set infinitely resourceful but only as a hunting ground for plug-in encounters. I used nearly everything in it save that of the first book which didn't matter all that much since the campaign can be used almost anywhere as a generic underdark campaign for Greyhawk.

The encounters are the meat of bread of the set, though, and it only confirms why Sargent was so highly regarded in the first place. Shame he's not writing anymore.
#7
zombiegleemax
May 30, 2005 21:13:24
Currently running it as part of my GH campaign.

1) 3.XE conversion of part I and III are available at ENWorld (part I is 3.0 and part III is 3.5E). Keep in mind that those doing these conversions did so before some of the newest WotC books were published (i.e. LoM) so the stats may not be 'canon'.

Do you have a link for this conversion? I visit the site often and could not find the info.
#8
Mortepierre
May 31, 2005 2:10:55 Sure, here it is:

http://www.enworld.org/downloads/index.php?cid=9

Scroll down till you find the two entries for Night Below.

WARNING! You must be logged in ENWorld to access this page!
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 07, 2005 20:33:20 No wonder I couldn't access the link. They are having a few server bugs. Thanks for your help though.
#10
zombiegleemax
May 13, 2007 22:40:56 One of my favorite adventures, I would like to play again as 3.5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 11, 2005 13:06:40	I have read that this box set was originally intended to be a Greyhawk product and after observing several Greyhawk references (most notably a lost cult/temple of Tharizdun), I am convinced it would be good fodder for any underdark campaign set in Greyhawk. Have any of you run this one and, if so, how did it work for your campaigns?
#2 ripvanwormer May 11, 2005 13:27:09	http://www.bluearch.net/night/ http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/NightBelow/
#3 samwise May 19, 2005 18:01:51	Hmmm . . . I missed this before. I joined a Night Below campaign in late 1999. When 3E came out in 2000, we converted. In early 2001 (I believe) the DM had work issues, and I took over the campaign, my character becoming an NPC. (Rather necessary as he was the only cleric in the party.) When 3.5 came out, I did a partial conversion, altering a few things as needed, but not really worrying about the players being overwhelmed by it. (Or having them go out and buy new books.) The campaign then continued until early 2004, when they finally finished. It was a chat based game, run right here on the WotC chat server, with most of using Cheetachat to connect. Of the players that started, only one lasted to the end, as I joined 3 or 4 sessions in. We went through 10-15 players all told, with 5 finishing. Of those, 4 have continued to play, going through ToEE, and now a mini-campaign. As for issues: Character Conversion A royal mess. The changes in relevance of stats, as well as the conversion guide for exceptional had very drastic effects. New characters fared much better. Module Conversion Very difficult. I did all the conversions off the cuff. Of course WotC now has most of the things converted themselves, but that didn't help me back then. In particular, Grell and Aboleth Savants are now in Lords of Madness, and Hook Horrors are in MM2. That wasn't the real problem however. When converting to 3E, a lot of encounters became well nigh absurd. Masses of trolls, swarms of grell, hoards of hook horrors, all add up to enough xp to make the PCs epic level before part 2 is finished. I solved that by simply tossing out the xp rules and telling the players they leveled when I felt like it. It also provided a lot of difficulty when dealing with CR. I wound up not lowering the levels on the Kuo-toa, and used the Mystic Theurge for the Aboleth Savants. It made them nasty. The party surprised the Kuo-toa dukes and trashed them, but the unsurprised Kuo-toa king slaughtered one per round until he got talisman of ultimate good-ed. Likewise any prepared Aboleth Savant was just wrong, especially if you use spells from supplements. And you really don't want to know the adjusted CR on them. Other than that, even done fast and loose (that is, a few hours before the session), conversion wasn't that difficult. You need to watch for a number of spells that no longer exist, particularly several that are near critical for success in certain quests and areas. And you need to watch for the usual power combos that occur in D20. The Different Sections Part 1 went fairly smoothly. We didn't do much more than half of the quests, so we were rather underpowered heading into the Underoerth. That was less of a problem than expected, as the players focused on several important things in the 3E rules very quickly, especially tanglefoot bags. (I eventually made them set up their own alchemists lab as they were using so many.) We developed a number of very intriguing role-playing elements from that first section, and nearly were diverted from the entire quest to just hanging out in Haranshire. Part 2 was when things began getting sticky. The most critical thing being it is a big jump to mass slaughter. There is some role-play involved, but for the most part it is an excercise in body counts. And some of those, as I noted above, don't convert very well. Four grells means forty attacks, means a near guaranteed hit on two or more characters, means lots of paralyzed characters, means a quick death. Be prepared for the players to develop some extreme feelings towards various monsters during this section, and to have less than pleasant attitudes towards them. Don't expect many Kuo-toa to survive long enough to flee the collapsing city. Also be prepared for them to want to break off and resupply repeatedly, especially as D20 is so dependent on upgrades by level and expendables. They will burn through as much expendables as you let them have, and probably want to go through more. Also, be prepared to limit the upgrades they can purchase. There are a number of weapon enhancements that are absurdly powerful for their cost, and players can easily come to overpower most secondary encounters in unpleasant ways if you don't watch them. However, you must let them buy item upgrades. Not doing so is an outright death sentence in D20. As a note, at the end of this, virtually the entire party was dead. As a result, we got three new characters to finish out the module, and sent some long time NPCs off into legend. For Part 3 we hit the main problem with the D20 system, that being the breakdown it sufferes above 10-13th level. The system really doesn't handle play that well, with too many encounters becoming win initiative or die situations. Also, the campaign was beginning to wear. Four years is a long time, and some of the side quests were just tedious at that time, no matter how necessary. The ixzan are a prime example, being little more than fireball bait to characters high enough level to survive the rest of the Sunless Sea, but still something that needs to be done. Also really delving into the intricacies of Shaboath did not work well in a chat based game. Even with scans of the maps, it was very difficult to convey the mood without direct contact and discussion. Overall, it was an incredible experience. As I said, the campaign went on for over four years, through two and a half editions of the rules. And most of the group that finished it is still together, making us one incredibly long lived group. And I could remember enough stories to fill multiple webpages from it. If you are willing to do the work, I'd recommend this campaign to everyone. But you need to do a lot of work.
#4 Mortepierre May 20, 2005 2:22:34	Currently running it as part of my GH campaign. A few things.. 1) 3.XE conversion of part I and III are available at ENWorld (part I is 3.0 and part III is 3.5E). Keep in mind that those doing these conversions did so before some of the newest WotC books were published (i.e. LoM) so the stats may not be 'canon' 2) I urge you to read the story hour published by Seravin (also at ENWorld) about this module. Makes for a good reading and gives great insight about how to run it without going crazy http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=42399&page=1&pp=40 3) I tied the two illithid factions to the two sects of the SB. Those helping the aboleths are backed up by the Black Brotherhood who wants in exchange access to the old temple of Tharizdun on the shore of the subterranean sea. The 'rebel' illithids are working with the Scarlet Brotherhood and exchange information about 'grafts' and how to modify life-forms 4) Samwise is on to something but IMHO exaggerates a bit. It's true that upgrading the monsters & NPC to 3.XE will result in a massive amount of xp. Your team will most likely have an average level of 14-15th by the time they finish part II. That said, I think those levels will be sorely needed in part III! The aboleth city is one huge trap filled to the brim with high-level spellcasters, fiends, huge golems, etc.. and once the players are inside, it will be very difficult for them to get any rest or to be able to retreat. Thus, they'll need the extra power if they are to make it. The magical disjunction they get hit with right before the very last encounter is rather nasty, especially if they are high level because it means most of their precious protection spells will go 'poof!'
#5 samwise May 20, 2005 9:32:24	4) Samwise is on to something but IMHO exaggerates a bit. It's true that upgrading the monsters & NPC to 3.XE will result in a massive amount of xp. Your team will most likely have an average level of 14-15th by the time they finish part II. That said, I think those levels will be sorely needed in part III! The aboleth city is one huge trap filled to the brim with high-level spellcasters, fiends, huge golems, etc.. and once the players are inside, it will be very difficult for them to get any rest or to be able to retreat. Thus, they'll need the extra power if they are to make it. The magical disjunction they get hit with right before the very last encounter is rather nasty, especially if they are high level because it means most of their precious protection spells will go 'poof!' Well that's the thing. If you go by the module, it should top out around 11th-12th level. Trying to stick with that was impossible. If you just let it go, then yeah, get to 15th level and don't worry about it. But then a number of encounters right before the city will be very irrelevant except for the clues they can provide. And yes, the city can be a major killer depending on how you convert it.
#6 zombiegleemax May 20, 2005 21:01:40	I found the box set infinitely resourceful but only as a hunting ground for plug-in encounters. I used nearly everything in it save that of the first book which didn't matter all that much since the campaign can be used almost anywhere as a generic underdark campaign for Greyhawk. The encounters are the meat of bread of the set, though, and it only confirms why Sargent was so highly regarded in the first place. Shame he's not writing anymore.
#7 zombiegleemax May 30, 2005 21:13:24	Currently running it as part of my GH campaign. 1) 3.XE conversion of part I and III are available at ENWorld (part I is 3.0 and part III is 3.5E). Keep in mind that those doing these conversions did so before some of the newest WotC books were published (i.e. LoM) so the stats may not be 'canon'. Do you have a link for this conversion? I visit the site often and could not find the info.
#8 Mortepierre May 31, 2005 2:10:55	Sure, here it is: http://www.enworld.org/downloads/index.php?cid=9 Scroll down till you find the two entries for Night Below. WARNING! You must be logged in ENWorld to access this page!
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2005 20:33:20	No wonder I couldn't access the link. They are having a few server bugs. Thanks for your help though.
#10 zombiegleemax May 13, 2007 22:40:56	One of my favorite adventures, I would like to play again as 3.5.