Pennarin wrote:
Although, I have to say, your ideas have refined since last we talked, and the Great Link analogy is perfect (DS9 rules!). Would you say every SotL is its own Great Link, integrating elements that join with it over time, like dead druids and druid ABs? I recall you didn't like the global SotL concept...
Something will have to be done about SotL demographics, because right now - and in 2E DS - you could defile to your heart's content without getting punished directly by a SotL. So does it mean there are few SotL out there? or that they have a different perception than mortals about small-scale defiling?
So for the undead SotL there are two possibilities then: a) undead SotL based off of the MMII entry, or b) tormented spirits that are the broken down components of the SotL, i.e. dead druids absorbed into the SotL and druid ABs that had joined with it.
Although, I have to say, your ideas have refined since last we talked, and the Great Link analogy is perfect (DS9 rules!). Would you say every SotL is its own Great Link, integrating elements that join with it over time, like dead druids and druid ABs? I recall you didn't like the global SotL concept...
As I stated in the other thread, this sound similar to Zwuun of Nibenay.
I already understood what you wanted to do, Xlor, with the druid AB. You may not remember but we talked about it for about an hour on the phone.
Although, I have to say, your ideas have refined since last we talked, and the Great Link analogy is perfect (DS9 rules!). Would you say every SotL is its own Great Link, integrating elements that join with it over time, like dead druids and druid ABs? I recall you didn't like the global SotL concept...
Something will have to be done about SotL demographics, because right now - and in 2E DS - you could defile to your heart's content without getting punished directly by a SotL. So does it mean there are few SotL out there? or that they have a different perception than mortals about small-scale defiling?
So for the undead SotL there are two possibilities then: a) undead SotL based off of the MMII entry, or b) tormented spirits that are the broken down components of the SotL, i.e. dead druids absorbed into the SotL and druid ABs that had joined with it.
Wel, I'm thinking that the big things SotL's can do is "lock" and secure a section of land frombeing defiled - most likely temporarily. They also can sacrifice themselves to defend the land against Defiling. And, then there's heir own influences on the Druids that rely on them. Plus, the physical-body AB's that have separated from the collective for a time, are able to hunt down and kill Defilers if they desire - usully those Defilers that have hurt the whole.
And I am still against the idea of a global SotL entity - each collective is based around a single original SotL being, that then various AB's have expanded and added to.
And I kind of like that idea you got going for the Undead SotL. could prove to be a very interesting element. What would a force of nature become if it was Undead?
As I stated in the other thread, this sound similar to Zwuun of Nibenay.
Unfamiliar with the Zwuun. Bu then again, I don't remember much about Nibenay, it was never one of my favorite cities.
Unfamiliar with the Zwuun. Bu then again, I don't remember much about Nibenay, it was never one of my favorite cities.
The Zwuun is a disembodied-like entity that is made up of multiple spirits of dead preservers from Nibenay's Veiled Alliance.
It fought the Shadow King to a mental standstill in the past.
A mechanic that works a long the lines of dragon or the old 2e vampire age categories would fit nicely IMO. As the SotL enters a new century of life it gains new abilities and his older ones become stronger.
Kam!?
Create a Druid/Psion specific PrC and have a separate spell that actually gains them physical power. Before the Druid casts the first spell he must choose 2 elements that he wishes to bind with. The DM should highly encourage, if not require, these elements to be the primary composites of the Druid’s original guarded lands. Depending on which elements where chosen, each casting of the spell would alter the Druid accordingly. Earth with focus on physical defense and Con, Wind would focus on attacking from a distance and Dex. Fire would be the most offensive, focusing primarily on physical attacks and Str. Lastly, Water would focus on magical defense (SR would rise and cap higher than the others), and Wis. The druid gains full benefits from the two elements he chooses. This system allows the druid to customize his metamorphosis more than any other AB.
As the Druid continues his casting he becomes more infused with the elements that are the building blocks of the planet. His physical form does changes, but to much less of a degree than that of a Dragon, Avangion, or Elemental. The druid begins to take on physical characteristics of the elements they chose, but do retain a generally humanoid appearance. As the druid advances in the metamorphosis, it does become more susceptible to the damage of defilers. They must sacrifice themselves in order to preserve the area around them. This translates to damage of 1/ spell level unless a save is made (modified by the caster level). Regardless of the rather the save is made or not the act of defiling causes the Druid great discomfort. Even the casting of preserver magic irritates the Druidic AB.
The PrC would function the same regardless of the local of the Druids guarded lands. The requirements to begin this new class would be the first casting of the Druid Metamorphosis (more appropriately labeled Druid Synthesis), and the training of an apprentice druid to take over the newly AB's guarded lands. When this path is chosen, it is now the responsibility of the Druid to protect all of Athas.
The benefits of the PrC include communing w/ the nearby Spirits of the Land, the ability to restore land that has been long since defiled and the casting of Divine Psionic Enchantments. The most notable power that the PrC offers is the ability to meld w/ the land. In function the Druid becomes a spirit of the land for the duration of the ability. As the druid gains in level, the amount of time in Spirit form and the number of times per day increases.
That’s the basic idea in a nutshell. I am sure there are a number of holes, and the mechanics need to be fleshed out, but I favor this approach for a variety of reasons. Not only does it stick to the same basic template the Dragon AB has, but it also allows the Druid to continue adventuring.
Let me know what you think.
Ok, I don't want to derail this thread, but since ToA has the Chanth, why doesn't it has the Zwuun?
Kam!?
My guess is that it never had any actual stats in 2e and that it was played more as a "well of information" for PCs.
So anyway, about those darn SotL :D
I would say an undead SotL would work something like this:
The core SotL (something like the one found in MMII, like Xlor said) is still alive but growing ever weaker. As a collective being, its parts would die and "fall off", becoming undead. Its constituent parts - druids that have joined with it - would become something like the Dishonored Spirits found in SotDL, but would be trapped into hte land instead of in the Gray. Eventually the core SotL would die. As to weither or not the core part can become undead, that rests to be seen.
I would think that the metamorphosis for all Advanced Beings would be similar mechanically. So, in keeping with the same general mechanic of the Dragon PrC and Metamorphosis, I would suggest a similar approach.
Create a Druid/Psion specific PrC and have a separate spell that actually gains them physical power. Before the Druid casts the first spell he must choose 2 elements that he wishes to bind with. The DM should highly encourage, if not require, these elements to be the primary composites of the Druid’s original guarded lands. Depending on which elements where chosen, each casting of the spell would alter the Druid accordingly. Earth with focus on physical defense and Con, Wind would focus on attacking from a distance and Dex. Fire would be the most offensive, focusing primarily on physical attacks and Str. Lastly, Water would focus on magical defense (SR would rise and cap higher than the others), and Wis. The druid gains full benefits from the two elements he chooses. This system allows the druid to customize his metamorphosis more than any other AB.
As the Druid continues his casting he becomes more infused with the elements that are the building blocks of the planet. His physical form does changes, but to much less of a degree than that of a Dragon, Avangion, or Elemental. The druid begins to take on physical characteristics of the elements they chose, but do retain a generally humanoid appearance. As the druid advances in the metamorphosis, it does become more susceptible to the damage of defilers. They must sacrifice themselves in order to preserve the area around them. This translates to damage of 1/ spell level unless a save is made (modified by the caster level). Regardless of the rather the save is made or not the act of defiling causes the Druid great discomfort. Even the casting of preserver magic irritates the Druidic AB.
The PrC would function the same regardless of the local of the Druids guarded lands. The requirements to begin this new class would be the first casting of the Druid Metamorphosis (more appropriately labeled Druid Synthesis), and the training of an apprentice druid to take over the newly AB's guarded lands. When this path is chosen, it is now the responsibility of the Druid to protect all of Athas.
The benefits of the PrC include communing w/ the nearby Spirits of the Land, the ability to restore land that has been long since defiled and the casting of Divine Psionic Enchantments. The most notable power that the PrC offers is the ability to meld w/ the land. In function the Druid becomes a spirit of the land for the duration of the ability. As the druid gains in level, the amount of time in Spirit form and the number of times per day increases.
That’s the basic idea in a nutshell. I am sure there are a number of holes, and the mechanics need to be fleshed out, but I favor this approach for a variety of reasons. Not only does it stick to the same basic template the Dragon AB has, but it also allows the Druid to continue adventuring.
Let me know what you think.
That bad eh? The purpose was basically to seperate ABs and true SotL, keeping some of the flavor, and allowing it to fit into the same basic mechanics of the other ABs. Anyone from the epic bureau have any feedback on how they plan on handling these?
Also, in regards to what has been mentioned thus far by others. If you make a druid bound to his guarded lands when he becomes a SotL he is basically being forced into making his character a NPC or going a different route all together. This may have been appropriate w/ 2e when beings of epic proportion (20+) were rare, but w/ the new rules this becomes way too restrictive. Just my opinion...
Ok, I don't want to derail this thread, but since ToA has the Chanth, why doesn't it has the Zwuun?
Kam!?
My guess is that it never had any actual stats in 2e and that it was played more as a "well of information" for PCs.
Correct - no stats for the Zwuun. Although, when I checked, I did find two more monsters that we didn't catch - the prismatic rose and the pond fiend.
>weeps uncontrollably<
And I literally just got done with the DA NPCs about 30 seconds ago! Where will it ever end???
Ahem. Returning you to your regular service now...
That bad eh? The purpose was basically to seperate ABs and true SotL, keeping some of the flavor, and allowing it to fit into the same basic mechanics of the other ABs. Anyone from the epic bureau have any feedback on how they plan on handling these?
Also, in regards to what has been mentioned thus far by others. If you make a druid bound to his guarded lands when he becomes a SotL he is basically being forced into making his character a NPC or going a different route all together. This may have been appropriate w/ 2e when beings of epic proportion (20+) were rare, but w/ the new rules this becomes way too restrictive. Just my opinion...
The concept you created is good, but for me personally, I would like to see a SotL mechanic for PCs and NPCs a like that doesn't follow the scheme of the typical AB progression. Not that I have an issue with the AB Dragon, but I feel that a SotL should be a natural (or supernatural) occurrence that should progress naturally. They shouldn't increase in level or power thru forced "magical rituals" but more in the vein of that "the land selects the being" not the other way around.
Don't get me wrong, I believe there should definitely be a mechanic in place. However, maybe it should be a series of trials that the druid must pass in order to prove their worth to the land itself versus that they do research and gather components for an arcane-like spell.
Thats just me though.
There should be true SotL that have accreted druid ABs around them, integrated them into their make-up, but also as many SotL that haven't, so we need stats for strip-down SotL and an stats for the collective-being SotL.
Of course, it could just be explained away with a cleric who wanted to strike the balance with all the elements at once and, they realized, that might not be such a bad idea.
I like this theory. Adds a bit more flavor and history IMO.
Per the time line, when did the first druids appear on Athas?
Thoughts?
Tossing in my opinion here, I'd see the first druid coming into being shortly after the effects of the Brown Tide were realized. The Elemental Lords knew that something was out of whack and someone had to take the reigns and maintain the balance.
Makes sense. It could be that it took the combined might of all for elements to keep the Brown Tide from returning. Hence why the Blue Age had to come to an end the Green Age need to begin.
Hey Xlor, the Planes of Athas group were planning on including Advanced-Being Elementals in the book. Want to do a section on Spirits of the Land?
Well, dunno. Don't have much time to devote to these things, and the Epic Bureau will eventually tackle the official translation for them. Plus, I do have m on views on the Advanced Being Cleric-Elementals, where they become basically living conduits connected from their elemental plane directly into the physical Athas. They are more powerful than your typical Elemental, but frequently mistaken for one, plus have the ability to appear as their original form. I've been rolling around a number of ideas for all the Advanced Beings, and I still may get my own site fired up again, then list out m personal take on all of them (I did have plans for more than just Dragons and Avangions).
synnis - I don't see the Divine Advanced Being transformational process working quite the same - as they do less metamorphosis and more of a transformation (or transfiguration?) into a new entity. Druids become spirits that can take the form of flesh and wander still, while Clerics become one with their Element, eventually becoming a direct connection to that element. The Arcane Advanced Beings are different, as they are using Arcane magic to restructure and redesign themselves. Now, there are some elements that I feel remain the same thoughout - like the use of psionic enchantments. But there is a great number of things that are different. For instance - I don't really see the Divine AB's having a series of spells they need to cast for their development - bu, the Divine AB's can't initiate the transformation on their own - they need some other, defined source to initiate the process (The Druids would need their SotL to actually grant them the initial step that leads to their eventual inclusion into that specific SotL's collective being, Clerics would have to be granted the energy to advance into an Elemental from their Elemental plane, not sure how yet).
Another big difference is that I feel the Divine AB's should have the ability to grant spells to their respective classes - so Druid AB's can grant spells to lesser Druids (I see it as a sort of mentor-like relationship, and one of the ways that Druids are made, an AB takes a prospective Druid under his wing - possibly without that new Druid even realizing what their master really is), and the Cleric-Elementals are conduits of power from their respective planes, and are able to fuel the spells of lesser Clerics. This would basically mean that in the long run, that little thing that makes the Sorcerer-Kings unique amongst the Arcane spellcasters (the ability to grant spells to Templars) is something that Divine AB's can do for their respective classes. What this really affects in the long-run, I don' reall know. I guess it would be like having the Leadership feat, only with it being specific to followers for the specific class.
Tossing in my opinion here, I'd see the first druid coming into being shortly after the effects of the Brown Tide were realized. The Elemental Lords knew that something was out of whack and someone had to take the reigns and maintain the balance.
I personally see it as when the pact of Earth, Air, Fire and Water took place, which I think might coincide with that event, but I'm not entirely certian. I see that the SotL's draw equally from the energies of the four prime elements (and then send that to their respective Druids), with their purpose being to ensure the balance between them.
I do like the idea of there being "True" Spirits of the Land and "Druid" Spirits of the Land prestige classes. After all, where would the first druid have gotten their spells if not from the "Spirit of Athas?"
I've always held to the idea that there was originally a single "Spirit of Athas," that formed in conjunction with Athas. Initially, Athas was a world where the elements existed in balance, and this Spirit of Athas reflected that. As the eons passed however, the face of Athas changed, as vast mountain ranges sprang up and deep oceans formed. And for the first time, the individual elements began to hold sway in one region or another. The Spirit of Athas, as a being of perfect elemental balance, was unable to deal with these changes. In a very painful process, it fragmented its consciousness, creating a myriad of imperfect children, each inexorably linked to the elements of its particular region, but forever denied the perfect balance of the original Spirit of Athas.
But the process of the fragmentation had taken its toll on these fledgling spirits. They still felt the pain of the fragmentation process, and they lacked the energy to carry on. They retreated into a deep slumber. Occasionally, one of these Spirits of the Land would awaken for a time, but most slept undisturbed.
Eons passed. Life formed on the face of Athas. Civilizations rose and fell. And through it all, the Spirits of the Land slumbered.
Then came the Brown Tide. And the Spirits of the Land, though fragmented, felt great pain, and woke. At first they were confused; this was not the world they had known. Strange creatures walked on their faces, and some of them had been responsible for the great pain!
In time, the Spirits of the Land came to know the world and its creatures, and even took some of these mortal creatures as students. These were the first druids. While many of these druids passed on when their time on Athas was at an end, the most powerful were able to join with their Spirit of the Land, becoming an aspect of said Spirit, just as the Spirit of the Land was an aspect of the original Spirit of Athas.
Thoughts?
I don't see the Divine Advanced Being transformational process working quite the same - as they do less metamorphosis and more of a transformation (or transfiguration?) into a new entity...
Looks like we share the same view for SotL in this area
I personally see it as when the pact of Earth, Air, Fire and Water took place, which I think might coincide with that event, but I'm not entirely certian. I see that the SotL's draw equally from the energies of the four prime elements (and then send that to their respective Druids), with their purpose being to ensure the balance between them.
Or, IMO, it could have been the the Brown Tide was the result of the life-shape masters going too far and they are the ones that actually caused the initial connection to the Elemental Planes, thereby allowing the Elemental Lords to Sweep into a new plane (it the form of the Tide). The halflings then sought to stop it with the Pristine Tower, but failed due to the combined might of the four elements.
In time, the Spirits of the Land came to know the world and its creatures, and even took some of these mortal creatures as students. These were the first druids. While many of these druids passed on when their time on Athas was at an end, the most powerful were able to join with their Spirit of the Land, becoming an aspect of said Spirit, just as the Spirit of the Land was an aspect of the original Spirit of Athas.
Thoughts?
Interesting. If this theory was used it could be that the first druid, the one that would have became the first SotL in our example above, could have instead joined with this original SotL to replenish its strength after the Brown Tide.
Or, IMO, it could have been the the Brown Tide was the result of the life-shape masters going too far and they are the ones that actually caused the initial connection to the Elemental Planes
Reread your Timeline, it states when the elemental clerics first appear.
One thing: SotL in both MMII and DSMCI were linked to one element, and DS druids in 2E were linked to two elements.
Druids have now changed in 3E. Will SotL change too?
A SotL, a manifestation of nature, being all made of rock or air is...silly. Its not a manifestation of an element, or even two, but of nature (four elements in balance). Its all about nature, the four elements, and life itself, not any particular element.
I like what I'm reading Xlor.
One thing: SotL in both MMII and DSMCI were linked to one element, and DS druids in 2E were linked to two elements.
Druids have now changed in 3E. Will SotL change too?
A SotL, a manifestation of nature, being all made of rock or air is...silly. Its not a manifestation of an element, or even two, but of nature (four elements in balance). Its all about nature, the four elements, and life itself, not any particular element.
I see them as being a manifestation of any of the four main elements (none of the Paraelements, as the Paraelements were not part of the Pact). They can appear as one or two at a time, but usually, if the SotL ctually manifest physically, it would be, I believe a combination of the elements as they pertain to the region that SotL protects. However, usually, the SotL relies on the individual AB's within it to manifest as their original form, rather than the SotL directly manifesting.
I don't care what anyone says! I like it!
Here's an interesting aside: what if "Elemental Vortexes" are really corrupted Spirits of the Land? The final step in becoming a Champion of Rajaat is to corrupt a Spirit O' the Land with the Dark Lens.
I don't care what anyone says! I like it!
I've been actually trying to angle that Cleric-Elementals are closer to the Elemental Vortices, rather than Spirits of the Land.
And for the guy who said he likes the single entity approach, to me, combining them all into a single massive Spirit of Athas, is edging too closely to some sort of Deity - which I am totally against that. As such, I feel smaller individual collectives of a Spirit of the Land works better to reduce the overall power, and eliminate that feel of some supreme being.
Here's an interesting aside: what if "Elemental Vortexes" are really corrupted Spirits of the Land? The final step in becoming a Champion of Rajaat is to corrupt a Spirit O' the Land with the Dark Lens.
I don't care what anyone says! I like it!
I was always a fan of Elemental Vortexes being super life-shaped artifacts.
I see them as being a manifestation of any of the four main elements (none of the Paraelements, as the Paraelements were not part of the Pact). They can appear as one or two at a time, but usually, if the SotL ctually manifest physically, it would be, I believe a combination of the elements as they pertain to the region that SotL protects.
I don't want to be a stickler but 2E's idea of any given region being more of one element than the other three was silly. Windy canyons are as much air as earth. I understand this is fantasy, but isn't it the reason why druids in 3E were stripped of their 2E affiliation to two elements?
Thus, shouldn't SotL be similarilly stripped as well?
It can't be harder to design a manifestation of a SotL that is not about one or two elements but about many then...designing the Chanth! (kudos to Kam ;) )
I don't want to be a stickler but 2E's idea of any given region being more of one element than the other three was silly. Windy canyons are as much air as earth. I understand this is fantasy, but isn't it the reason why druids in 3E were stripped of their 2E affiliation to two elements?
It was more that the druid chose to focus on one element in his guarded lands than the guarded lands had one specific element in charge.
I believe it was the original Rule Book's description of druids that said you could essentially have three druids controlling the same land, theoretically. One would control the entire area, another would control an oasis, and the third would lay claim to a rock spire (or something like that).
Reread your Timeline, it states when the elemental clerics first appear.
It was just a thought. I am currently in my office and do not have my books.
I just thought it would be a cool way to introduce the elemental forces as invaders into Athas!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And for the guy who said he likes the single entity approach, to me, combining them all into a single massive Spirit of Athas, is edging too closely to some sort of Deity - which I am totally against that. As such, I feel smaller individual collectives of a Spirit of the Land works better to reduce the overall power, and eliminate that feel of some supreme being.
I wasn't suggesting that the Spirits of the Land are still connected or joined in relevant way; I use the Spirit of Athas merely as part of their origin. That said, at a some point long, long ago, the SotL were part of the Spirit of Athas, and they can probably still sense when significant events occur that upset the natural balance of Athas (ie. the Brown Tide, the Creation of the Dead Lands, etc.). Kind of like "I sense a great disturbance in the Force".
Dawn, I never much read EAFW, but I don't recall what you're referencing from the Setting Boxes.
Now, the 3E "guarded lands" PrC is already done and part of PrC Appendix 1, and its got nothing on focusing on a given element.
It seems that stuff has been relegated to 2E memory.