Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 19, 2005 5:38:22	Out of curiosity and after reading the Overland Movement thread, did anybody else have a problem with the obvious reliance on earth cultures used to give flavour to various City States. Particularly as the cities are grouped relatively closely together. Tyr and Nibeney always seemed well thought out, the Tyr handbook IIRC didn't seem to draw upon any distinct earth culture. Nibenay with the stone carvings, dense architecture and the hypnotic music is also unique. Similarly with Urik in the PP books, although the Veiled Alliance book took the Persian influence a bit far. On this tangent it also made me wonder about the history of the different Champions and if they originally came from different regions of Athas, with their own armies (then settled with their leaders in the Tablelands near the Pristine Tower).
#2 squidfur- May 19, 2005 6:48:39	Tyr and Nibeney always seemed well thought out, the Tyr handbook IIRC didn't seem to draw upon any distinct earth culture. Nibenay with the stone carvings, dense architecture and the hypnotic music is also unique. Similarly with Urik in the PP books, although the Veiled Alliance book took the Persian influence a bit far. Actually, Urik was very heavily influenced by Babylon and the Assyrian culture. That's something I'm trying to change/add uniqueness to. Stay tuned. On this tangent it also made me wonder about the history of the different Champions and if they originally came from different regions of Athas, with their own armies (then settled with their leaders in the Tablelands near the Pristine Tower). I think most everyone here on the boards is curious about the history of the Champions. What are your thoughts on the matter?
#3 zombiegleemax May 19, 2005 8:35:30	Just been scanning through the Timeline again. The Cleansing Wars lasted for over 1,500 years, enough time for most of the races on the planet to become extinct or almost extinct, including humans. The rapid defilement of the planet, with the seas turning to silt would have been cataclysmic to all races. IMO The various champions could have taken the remaining humans and used their own armies to populate their new cities, creating rules and order vaguely based on what they could remember of their own past.
#4 pringles May 19, 2005 9:54:49	Draj is inspired by Aztec Nibenay by egyptian Balic by Greek Tyr by phenician Urik by mesopotamia Raam by India Gulg is african inspired.
#5 terminus_vortexa May 19, 2005 10:24:25	Draj is definetely Aztec inspired Nibenay has Babylonian tendencies in art and language Balic is more Latin than anything (Greek and Latin culture have very similar architecture and dress, but Balic uses a lot of Latin terms, like Patricians and Senators and such, among many others, and not one Greek word. We hashed this out on the boards a few months ago..... Tyr is really not similar to any real-world culture, except for Sumerian-style ziggurats. It can't be Phoenecian, because they were primarily a SEAFARING PEOPLE. and no,. Tyr was not a Phoenician city, that was Tyre ( Pronounced Tire,)Also, not enough historical data on the Phoenecian's land-based cities is available to compare their cities to anyone else. The major known one one was Carthage (yes, Carthaginians were Phoenicians) and Rome destroyed that city so thoroughly, salting the earth and killing and burning EVERYTHING, that it's an architectural dead-zone. Raam is exclusively Persian in linguistics and culture. Gulg is a very bloodthirsty version of the Celtic cultures of old.
#6 squidfur- May 19, 2005 19:06:09	city-scape wise, Balic very much seems to be molded after Athens, Greece. and for Gulf I think a strong hint of Africa's bushmen tribes was added.
#7 the_peacebringer May 20, 2005 7:12:47	[...]and for Gulf I think a strong hint of Africa's bushmen tribes was added. Hmm... Gulf... Have you adapted the name for your campaign? :D
#8 Band2 May 20, 2005 8:01:57	Balic is more Latin than anything (Greek and Latin culture have very similar architecture and dress, but Balic uses a lot of Latin terms, like Patricians and Senators and such, among many others, and not one Greek word. Except for when they call their market an agora. As for Gulg, the term Oba was used by the Edo people of western Africa, near present day Nigieria to refer to their divine kings.
#9 dracochapel May 20, 2005 8:13:53	Balic is Grecian. I mean they are the real world counterpart that has a Tyrant. (hello Andropinis). If any of the cities were Roman (and rome stole - or borrowed - a lot of things from the greeks) then it would be Urik. The most warlike city in the tablelands and the most like classical Rome. Urik is probably babylonian. Hamanus laws are extremely similar to hammurabis laws. and NIbenay is probably based on assyria - look at pictures of nibenay citizens from the books, they are very similar to the appearance of historical assyrians. And my opinion is that the cities based on real world cultures is a good thing. Means that there is a lot of information out there to give an idea of how we should RP the citizens.
#10 zombiegleemax May 22, 2005 9:13:54	And my opinion is that the cities based on real world cultures is a good thing. Means that there is a lot of information out there to give an idea of how we should RP the citizens. When running a DS campaign I don't mind drawing upon ideas from earth cultures but taking exact looks and styles without blending them to DS seems to take away from the uniqueness of Athas and its Green Age psionic background. Plenty of writers are able to imagine entire worlds without drawing upon such explicit parallels, particularly those found in the Veiled Alliance book. When designing and describing areas of cities I used Ancient Sumeria, the early Indus civilisation (cities such as Mohenjodaro) and early Egypt as a combined background, This was also used for ruins around the Tablelands (to give the area a vaguely unified look). Then each city-state had its own unique take or emphasis, based on the wishes of the Sorcerer King.
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 22, 2005 9:35:03	Balic is Grecian. I mean they are the real world counterpart that has a Tyrant. (hello Andropinis). If any of the cities were Roman (and rome stole - or borrowed - a lot of things from the greeks) then it would be Urik. The most warlike city in the tablelands and the most like classical Rome. Andropinis was called the Dictator of Balic. Kalak was called the Tyrant of Tyr. Tyr and Balic both draw heavily from both Green and Roman influences - with some structures being grabbed from other influences (the Ziggurat, for instance). However, Try tend to be slightly more ancient Grecian, while Rome seems to be slightly more ancient Roman (but I have heard it the other way around). The general thought I've had with people here before, is that the reason the two are so interconnected, is the close trade ties between Tyr and Balic. Urik is probably babylonian. Hamanus laws are extremely similar to hammurabis laws. and NIbenay is probably based on assyria - look at pictures of nibenay citizens from the books, they are very similar to the appearance of historical assyrians. That Urik is based on Babylon is no surprise, especially when you research what Hammurabi was like - Hamanu is strongly based upon him. Nibenay and Raam are another two that have interconnections - but slightly different. Raam has Egyptian-style names, but more Indian-style culture. Nibenay has more Indian-style names, but Egyptian-style culture. And my opinion is that the cities based on real world cultures is a good thing. Means that there is a lot of information out there to give an idea of how we should RP the citizens. That theydraw heavily from ancienct real-world cultures, means you can sudy those cultures, and then add to the individual city-states all together. This cannot be a "bad thing".
#12 dracochapel May 25, 2005 1:25:27	oops got kalak and andropinis mixed up. Oh well agree that they are both fairly similar, though i am sure the building names and titles in balic are more grecian. I had (have somewhere) one of those big national geographic type books that has life like maps of different ancient cities. i used technotitlan for Draj and an old abandoned south east asian city - i think in thailand - for the ruins of bodach. WIth a real world basis we have access to a lot more information than TSR, or wotc could print. maybe thats why i didnt like kurn or eldaarich so much, not any real world hook. And would we agree that draj is the most blatant of the lot??
#13 zombiegleemax May 25, 2005 3:49:58	There is a reason the the Greco-Roman exists. The Greeks heavily influenced the Romans. Arguing about whether Balic is closer to Greek influenced Roman culture or Greek culture is fairly pointless.
#14 dawnstealer May 25, 2005 10:27:08	Tyr and Balic both draw heavily from both Green and Roman influences Ralph Nader must be very upset with them, then. :P
#15 zombiegleemax May 25, 2005 13:22:47	Anthopologically speaking, there shouldn't be much of a cultural difference between the city-states. Given the trade networks and the amount of contact each peoples have with each other, architecture should look similar as popular styles spread through via trade networks. Languages, since they probably all came from one Rajaat's army spoke, are probably very similar. I would say that at the most, there are two common languages, southern and northern common in the Tyr region. Each city would have it's own dialect, but it would be understood by someone from a neighboring city. However, each city is isolated with merchants the primary contacts of different peoples, however, there can also be migrations between cities that help to solidify culture. Common Tongue Language groups Tyrian Common Ur Draxian Kurnian (including Eldaarich) Saragar Anattan
#16 zombiegleemax May 25, 2005 13:51:59	Anthopologically speaking, there shouldn't be much of a cultural difference between the city-states. Given the trade networks and the amount of contact each peoples have with each other, architecture should look similar as popular styles spread through via trade networks. Languages, since they probably all came from one Rajaat's army spoke, are probably very similar. That's how I tend to look at things and have ran it in my own campaigns, with just enough cultural difference to make each city memorable rather than glaringly different in such a small area.
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 25, 2005 14:13:43	Ralph Nader must be very upset with them, then. :P Read the Sig.
#18 dawnstealer May 25, 2005 14:55:12	Never!
#19 korvar May 25, 2005 18:20:50	Anthopologically speaking, there shouldn't be much of a cultural difference between the city-states. Given the trade networks and the amount of contact each peoples have with each other, architecture should look similar as popular styles spread through via trade networks. Theoretically, yes; however, in order to explain the wide variance of cultures, I've assumed that originally the Champions came from all over the Green Age World, and their armies were originally taken from that Champion's culture. At the end of the Cleansing Wars, they Sorcerer-Kings (as they now were) brought their cronies and the remnants of their armies, to the only place worth living in left on Athas (or possibly the best place to be to maintain Rajaat's prison). Then, they each set up their own City-State, which would obviously be based on their original culture. I seem there's one or two cities that don't fit that pattern - a SK came in and basically adopted the culture that was already there. That's fine, assuming the original Green Age area was on the border of those two cultures. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, just giving you my take on it...
#20 zombiegleemax May 25, 2005 20:43:05	Remember the city states are isolated cultures. They are connected by trade routes, but most of the people in them stay in one place for most of their lives. The Sorcerer-Kings and their templar servants have had centuries to promote their pet religions. They also have different economic and enviromental influences. All those factors will cause cultural drift.
#21 dawnstealer May 25, 2005 21:25:25	Good points all around; the most likely is some combination of the two: When you have a ruler who lives for thousands of years, the city is going to gradually take on more and more of that ruler's personality, whether or not it started that way.
#22 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 25, 2005 22:19:20	Good points all around; the most likely is some combination of the two: When you have a ruler who lives for thousands of years, the city is going to gradually take on more and more of that ruler's personality, whether or not it started that way. Which could explain the madness that permiates Eldaaritch
#23 jon_oracle_of_athas May 26, 2005 11:16:18	I've done some work on cross-cultural trade in the Tablelands. You can find the article in the articles section on athas.org.