Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gv_dammerung May 19, 2005 12:31:06	Some of you may be familiar with one of the latest additions to Greyhawk's crowded pantheon of deities. Here is my take on Zarus - The Book of Zarus By Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVDammerung) (Copyright 2005, All Rights Reserved) DM Introduction The Greater God of Humanity, Zarus, is introduced in the Races of Destiny sourcebook from Wotc. Zarus is the first deity in the history of D&D to be accorded this status, akin to Corellon Larethian’s relationship to elves, Moradin’s relationship to dwarves, Gruumsh’s relationship to orcs, Garl Glittergold’s relationship to gnomes and Yondalla’s relationship to halflings. Zarus is the racial deity of humans. As with all material published for the Third Edition of D&D that is not specifically called out as belonging exclusively to a particular setting, Zarus is subject to and part of the “core” or “default” Third Edition setting - Oerth - The World of Greyhawk. Races of Destiny reinforces this connection by making extended use of the Greyhawk setting throughout the book. Of course, individual Greyhawk campaigns may reject Zarus as any other element of the game. From a Greyhawk “canon” standpoint, Zarus is as much “canon” as any number of other Third Edition innovations that use the “core” or “default” setting. Saying this, however, raises more questions than it answers with respect to the Greyhawk “canon” status of these other Third Edition innovations. That there is some “canon” relationship seems certain but the quality and precise nature of that relationship is open to much question that is beyond the scope of this article. Suffice to repeat, individual Greyhawk campaigns may reject Zarus as any other element of the game, Third Edition innovation or otherwise. The foregoing is perhaps more significant than would otherwise be the case because Zarus aligns Lawful Evil. His faith is one that advocates human superiority over non-humans. While quick resort might be had to the term “racist,” because that term is used loosely in D&D, it is more accurate to say that Zarus is “species-ist.” The Scarlet Brotherhood is racist. Unlike the Brotherhood, Zarus’ faith makes no distinction between one human race and another. Still, this type of human chauvinism is unprecedented in other “racial” deities - elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and even orcs. While Zarus might be dismissed as a lost cause on account of his human chauvinism and alignment, such dismissal would both ignore “canon” in its Third Edition sense and would ignore Zarus’ potential as a highly unusual sort of deity, not heretofore seen among the ranks of Greyhawk’s divine powers. What follows is The Book of Zarus, verbatim in a game context. It draws on the material presented in Races of Destiny and expands upon that material in a consistent way. Zarus is Lawful Evil but his evil is a relative thing - relative to his human chauvinism. As will be seen, there is a solid foundation for such chauvinism that is well established. Zarus is not as aberrational as might first be imagined. This does not, however, excuse or temporize his evil nature. Prejudice of any variety is ugly. When that prejudiced is acted upon it is not merely ugly but evil. Zarus is evil. He is, however, very purposeful in his evil. The nature of his evil is extremism in the pursuit of what otherwise might be a laudable goal - the protection and advancement of humanity. Certainly, extremism is not an unknown human characteristic. Zarus would then not be aberrational in this respect either. Note on the Interpretation of Zarist Texts - The Scrolls of Genesis, Apotheosis, Transcendence and Commandments are orthodoxy to all Zarists. The Scroll of Corollaries is open to potentially conflicting interpretation. A fundamentalist reading of Corollaries gives them the worst possible meaning for non-humans. A more direct reading allows non-humans to be treated somewhat better, although they will always be treated as inferiors. This aspect of Corollaries is intentional to allow for doctrinal debate, schism, sectarianism and variety among Zarists. The key to understanding that even the most enlightened reading of Corollaries is chimeric is the use of the phrase “the laws of Zarus.” Liberal interpretations of Corollaries are possible but are ultimately circular. Non-humans are never going to be treated as anything approaching equals. At best, they will always be second class citizens, without any substantial rights of any true meaning. THE BOOK OF ZARUS GENESIS Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, there was the World and from the World came all things. The last and most perfect creation of the World was Man. His name was Zarus and he was the first of the races of Mankind. Zarus came into the World without the hand of any being, mortal or immortal, being raised. He was created from and by the World alone. Genesis 1:2 When the older races saw Zarus, they trembled. His grace surpassed that of the elves of Corellon Larethian. His endurance surpassed that of the dwarves of Moradin. His skills and craft surpassed that of Garl Glittergold’s gnomes and Yondalla’s halflings. His strength surpassed that of the orcs of Gruumsh. Zarus was perfect in every way. All trembled lest Zarus breed a race of his like, superior to all others, but Zarus was alone. Genesis 1:3 In his loneliness, Zarus called out to the World from which he had sprung for a companion. The World answered. Astra was created by the World, just as Zarus had been created. She was perfect and Zarus’ mate. Now, the other races grew fearful and prayed that Mankind be destroyed. Corellon heard the prayers of the elves that Mankind be destroyed. Moradin heard the prayers of the dwarves that Mankind be destroyed. Garl Glittergold and Yondalla heard the prayers of gnome and halfling that Mankind be destroyed. Gruumsh heard the prayers of orcs that Mankind be destroyed. Genesis 1:4 In secret, the older races plotted to poison Zarus. In a gift of wine at his wedding to Astra, the older races offered a toast to Zarus’ health with poisoned wine. Zarus knew of the jealousy of the older races but honor prevented him from refusing the treacherously offered cup. Zarus drank, and died, but the World would not allow such injustice and raised Zarus as a god as great as the chiefmost gods of the older races and greater still as would be revealed in time. Genesis 1:5 Now a god, Zarus wiped Astra’s tears and together they sired the races of Mankind. APOTHEOSIS Apotheosis 2:1 Astra bore Zarus many children. In their perfection, they spread over the face of Oerth, adapting to the different lands in which they settled. Some of Zarus’ children had dark skin. Others had tan or olive skin. Still others were pale. All were the children of Zarus and formed the races of Mankind. In their seemingly infinite diversity, all honored Zarus and proved the most perfect of the creatures of Oerth, superior to all the other non-human races. Apotheosis 2:2 In the First Epoch (Ordus Dominus Dominum or OD&D), no race could fully equal the achievements of Mankind. While an elf might grow great in the fighting arts and as well in wizardry, a human could surpass an elf in either or both. And so it was in every way; other races would prove themselves able but Man was always superior. Apotheosis 2:3 In the First Age of the Second Epoch (Annus Dominus Dominum or AD&D), Man grew mightier still. No matter how a creature of another race might show a diversity of talents, Man would prove greater in any one or more. The best any of the lesser races could do is perhaps equal man in a single area, but Man would always prove the superior overall. Apotheosis 2:4 In the Second Age of the Second Epoch (Annus Dominus Dominum Secundus or AD&D2E), much the same was true. While there was much ferment among the older races and attempts to better their state compared to the exalted state of Mankind, these efforts ultimately failed. Humanity remained dominant and no non-human race could equal the achievements of Man. At the end of the Second Age, a great cry went up from the non-human races and their gods again heard their pleas. Apotheosis 2:5 In the Third Epoch ( Tertium Dominus Dominum or 3D&D), the older races were raised up to challenge Man. Now dwarves were gifted with the potential for sorcerous might. Elves might be great warriors. Even lowly gnomes, halflings and half-orcs could think to challenge Mankind’s claim to domination. Yet, the blood of Zarus flowed strongly in Man. His feats were greater. His skills were unsurpassed. Humanity was favored in all ways, while the favors newly bestowed upon the older races were more limited. The world still belonged most fully to the human race as it always had belonged to that most perfect of races - the Children of Zarus. TRANSCENDENCE Transcendence 3:1 Zarus guided each of the races of Man as best he could but even Zarus, greatest of the gods, grew tired. The other non-human races and their gods never stopped trying to destroy Zarus and his children. In comely guises, they sought to seduce human men and women. Abominable admixtures of humans and the more fecund of the non-human races began to be commonly seen. Humanity had turned from Zarus and he turned his back upon them. Mankind knew not of Zarus. Transcendence 3:2 Zarus’ wife, however, took pity on humanity. Earlier elevated to godhood by the World, much as her husband, Astra determined to raise up among Mankind other gods, that Mankind might have succor until Zarus would again turn his face toward humanity. So it was that Astra gave something of her power to other beings that they might become divine. Astra was diminished but new gods arose among humanity. Transcendence 3:3 In the Third Epoch, Zarus revealed himself anew to his people. Many did not recognize him. Many denied him. It was in the manner of things, however, that Zarus was unquestionably of Oerth. That his connection with the World was of a different sort than any seen before was attributable to the transcendent nature of Zarus’ divinity. Zarus was revealed as a god of Oerth but also the Father of Man throughout the multiverse. His status as the only greater god of Humanity is without question and settles all arguments. It is proof of Zarus’ love for his children that he grants them free will to question, even Himself. Transcendence 3:4 Zarus’ relationship with the other gods of humanity is complicated. Zarus holds a pride of place superior to any other human god or goddess. He is the archetype. He is the realized embodiment of all that is human made divine. Zarus does not, however, ask that Mankind renounce their other deities. He cannot for these divinities have proven themselves worthy of His Children’s worship. Yet, Zarus cannot be denied. He is Humanity. In His wisdom, Zarus reveals himself to His Children slowly, without force and without demand. All shall come again to revere Zarus, for only Zarus well cares for Humanity for itself and nothing more. Zarus is the Father of Man. COMMANDMENTS Commandments 4:1 That Mankind shall know its place in the World and shall know how best to fulfill its destiny, Zarus has made known Commandments to be followed by all humanity alike. Those of the races of Man who reject the Commandments, thereby reject their humanity and become as any non-human race - inferior and subject to the will of Man. It the command of Zarus that all who reject their humanity be shown no mercy, even below that of the non-human, who may earn grace by serving Mankind as their natural superiors in all things. Commandments 4:2 Thou Shalt Live. Man must survive, endure and prosper. Commandments 4:3 Thou Shalt Conquer. Man must expand his dominion over all things. Commandments 4:4 Thou Shalt Rule. Man must rule over all creatures and may take his ease and service from those ruled. Commandments 4:5 Thou Shalt Be Fruitful and Multiply. Man must increase in numbers to fulfill his destiny. Commandments 4:6 Thou Shalt Have No Others Gods Before Me. Man may worship as he pleases but must not forsake the fundamental laws of Zarus. Commandments 4:7 Thou Shalt Honor Thy Fellows. Man must respect man, even as he strives against him in competition to prove his superior humanity. Commandments 4:8 Thou Shalt Honor Thy Self. Man must rule and improve himself to be prepared and fit to rule others. Commandments 4:9 Thou Shalt Make No Pacts That Bind Thee to Other Than the Human. Man shall not serve but may only be served. Commandments 4:10 Thou Shalt Cull The Weak. Man must strengthen the race and must not suffer weakness or infirmity. Commandments 4:11 Thou Shalt Suffer Not the Fool. Man must strengthen his mind that none may gainsay his just judgments and rule. COROLLARIES Corollaries 5:1 From the teachings of Zarus flow certain, inevitable consequences of natural law. These Corollaries reveal the further word of the Father of Humanity. Hold true to these principles for they are second only to the Commandments of Zarus. Corollaries 5:2 There shall be comity among the races of Man. All humanity is equal before Zarus. No man may hold himself superior over his fellow man if both obey the laws of Zarus. Racism is a sin against Zarus. The human race must stand united to rule the non-human species. Corollaries 5:3 There shall be comity between men and woman. Men and women are equal before Zarus. No man may hold himself superior over any woman, nor woman hold herself superior over any man, if both obey the laws of Zarus. Sexism is a sin against Zarus. The human race, men and women, must stand united to rule the non-human species. Corollaries 5:4 No man or woman shall mate with a non-human and produce offspring. The mixing of the human and the non-human in a being is an abomination in the eyes of Zarus. The offspring of man must be human, and human alone, to fulfill Mankind’s destiny. The half-human is not human and must be culled. Corollaries 5:5 Mankind bears the heaviest burden for only Man is fit to rule creation. It is Man’s destiny to rule and guide the non-human races. Those of the non-human races who accept the law of Zarus should be treated within the law of Zarus. Those of the non-human races who resist the law of Zarus must be culled unto the last generation. Corollaries 5:6 No human or non-human, either of whom accepts the laws of Zarus, may be enslaved. Slavery of the followers of the laws of Zarus is a sin against Zarus. Service may be taken of the followers of the laws of Zarus but they must not be enslaved. Only the weak among Men and those who reject the laws of Zarus, human and non-human, may be rightfully enslaved to benefit and serve the will of the Children of Zarus. Corollaries 5:7 No one shall use poison. Zarus was poisoned by the followers of the non-humans and their gods. Zarus and his Children are superior and need not resort to the use of poison. The use of poison is a sin against Zarus. Poisoners must be culled. Corollaries 5:6 Zarus was created by the World and by the World alone. Astra, the Mother of Humanity, was created by the World and the World alone. The Children of Zarus must honor and respect the World. Those among Mankind called druids must be respected and honored. They may not be enslaved nor culled. Those among Mankind called witches, who obey the Eighth Commandment of Zarus and make no pacts that bind them to inhuman masters but who honor the World, must be respected and honored. They may not be enslaved or culled. Corollaries 5:7 Man shall not be ruled by clerics or priests. The priests and clerics of Zarus and all other human gods are advisors to Man and must not seek to rule Man under a mask of assumed divinity. No Man shall suffer to be ruled by clerics or priests. Such is a sin against Zarus and all shall be culled. Man is free to choose to accept his destiny and the laws of Zarus or to reject Zarus and be culled. No priest or cleric may interpose themself between Man and this choice. Man owes his highest allegiance to himself and himself alone. It is the will of Zarus. Corollaries 5:8 To rule, Man must be wise in all things. Man is the glory of Zarus and a temple to Zarus, superior to all other beings. Man shall raise up to himself and to Zarus every art, every craft, every science and knowledge. It is Mankind’s duty to promote civilization, to banish ignorance, to acquire knowledge and to advance the human race to be worthy of Zarus and the humanity that is Man’s birthright. Man shall glean knowledge even from the non-humans that he may know their ways and have knowledge of all. To be called ignorant shall be the greatest of shames in the eyes of Zarus, second only to being called weak. Corollaries 5:9 As Zarus is the Father of Humanity, God the Creator of Humanity, Astra is the Mother of Humanity, Goddess and Giver of Life to Mankind. All shall honor and respect Astra as Zarus. In Astra’s name may the wayward atone for sins against Zarus and seek new life in his divine favor. DM Endnote In my campaign, Zarus is the chief deity of the Tharquish Empire of extreme Western Oerik.. This placement is in line with my take on Third Edition “core” or “default” Greyhawk “canon.” I place most of the features not immediately identifiable as belonging to or in the Flanaess in the extreme western portions of Oerik. This acknowledges the”canon” but avoids trying to fit what is too often otherwise a square peg in a round hole. The Tarquis Dominions also revere Zarus but not with the single mindedness of the Tharquish Empire. The Empire is not a theocracy, but it is nearly monotheistic. The Dominions are more pluralistic but all of the basic tenants Zarus are observed. In other areas of Western Oerth - Barbarian Seameast and the Empire of Lynnortis - Zarus is just one deity among many, which can raise of host of interesting possibilities. In the Flanaess proper, the worship of Zarus is practically unknown. Zarist travelers, let alone priests and clerics, are extremely rare. In the southern most regions of Hepmonaland and the Pearl Sea, however, Zarists are simply rarely encountered. Wherever Zarists go, they generally make a good first impression on human populations, even those living in close proximity with non-humans. Zarists are not stupid. Issues develop later. The most extreme conflict with Zarists takes place in Hepmonaland. The Scarlet Brotherhood’s racism is intolerable to the faith of Zarus and the two groups clash almost immediately upon first contact. The Zarists also oppose the Yuan-ti dominated states with equal fervor. Back in the Tharquish Empire, reports of Hepmonaland portray that land as one in extreme need of enlightenment and liberation. Humans sin by oppressing humans, particularly in the face of the clear Yuan-ti threat, a sin of its own. Talk of aiding the Touv has not yet gone beyond that. The future, however, is uncertain.
#2 ripvanwormer May 19, 2005 20:36:14	The priests of Zarus claim he sprang fully-grown and self-created from the earth. They assure us that the earth is not a goddess, as some claim, for there can be no deity as perfect as Zarus and nothing less perfect could create perfection. The dwarves tell a different story. They speak of their god of wanderers, Muamman Duathal, and how one day he was walking down a mountainside and slipped in the mud. Falling backwards, he left the impression of his body in the wet soil. Climbing to his feet, he continued on his journey. Behind him, the impression of the god filled with muddy water and gravity assured that this impression on the side of a mountain's slope would slowly distort and elongate. Overnight, the mud froze. Traces of the divine energy of Muamman Duathal remained and the next day, as the slush thawed, a new creature came out formed from mud and snow. This was the first of the humans, stretched taller than their dwarven forerunners. He sculpted himself a mate and their descendents filled the world. The priests of Zarus say that their god joined the council of deities dividing up the world, arriving shortly after Gruumsh. The old, imperfect, nonhuman gods had nothing they were willing to give Zarus, and they killed him. Yet Zarus rose again, and made it his mission to subjugate those who had persecuted him. On Oerth, Zarus was worshipped in the ancient Tilvanot and the Vast Swamp, but his cult died out with the coming of the Oerids and Suel. Some claim he was reborn as Wastri. Zarus dwells in Acheron. His petitioners regularly get into skirmishes with the orc and goblin souls, but his eyes are on bigger game: conquest of all the planes. He does not oppose Hextor, Bane, or the other human gods until their goals conflict with his. He actually respects Heironeous a great deal, but this respect is not reciprocated; Heironeous feels nothing but utter contempt for Zarus, but has difficulty convincing the other god of this by any means short of violence.
#3 chatdemon May 22, 2005 6:30:47	I decided that Zarus is simply the original form of Wastri, before his evil and hate twisted him into toadboy. Small cults here and there in human dominated lands still worship him by this name (and using the handsome human male visage instead of the toad). As far as your "book of Zarus", I don't have any objections to the dogma, except for the "Apatheosis" section. IMO, the metagame references to the incarnations of D&D make it a little silly. Leaving that out though, I don't see any reason why it couldn't form the foundation of a cult or two. I agree that the new gods found in various 3/3.5e books are open for use in GH, but I prefer to use them as variations of existing gods (like Zarus/Wastri) or as minor cults. Never let generica overshadow real GH canon.
#4 gv_dammerung May 24, 2005 9:56:09	I decided that Zarus is simply the original form of Wastri, before his evil and hate twisted him into toadboy. Small cults here and there in human dominated lands still worship him by this name (and using the handsome human male visage instead of the toad). As far as your "book of Zarus", I don't have any objections to the dogma, except for the "Apatheosis" section. IMO, the metagame references to the incarnations of D&D make it a little silly. Leaving that out though, I don't see any reason why it couldn't form the foundation of a cult or two. I agree that the new gods found in various 3/3.5e books are open for use in GH, but I prefer to use them as variations of existing gods (like Zarus/Wastri) or as minor cults. Never let generica overshadow real GH canon. Hi Chatdemon, I suppose Wastri could be a degenerate Zarus but that is a looooong way for a Greater God of all humanity to fall. I, obviously, prefer Zarus as Zarus. The metagame references are tacked on, basically to make the point that humans have always been demonstrably "superior" in the strictest terms of the game. As the metagame references are in parentheticals, intentionally, they can be easily stripped out. I like the term "generica" for 3E Greyhawk references but I believe they are "real GH canon," in as much as "GH canon" is a diverse classification that would see everything from logo GH products, to Gygaxian ephemrera like Gord and Sagard (and soon/someday Castle Zagyg), to Dragon/Dungeon articles to web supps like Ivid etc. To me, the question is not so much what is "canon" as how much weight to give the varieties of canon. A lot of the 3E GH references are IMO problematic to a greater extent but I would not dismiss them as less "real." Zarus "benefits" both from being 3E GH "canon" but also from what I call - The Universal Law of Racial Deities. Just as Moradin spans all settings as Father of the Dwarves, Zarus would span all settings as Father of Humanity. This is one of the reasons I was so taken with Races of Destiny; I thought it broke a lot of interesting new ground.
#5 Brom_Blackforge May 24, 2005 10:21:54	I like the term "generica" for 3E Greyhawk references but I believe they are "real GH canon," in as much as "GH canon" is a diverse classification that would see everything from logo GH products, to Gygaxian ephemrera like Gord and Sagard (and soon/someday Castle Zagyg), to Dragon/Dungeon articles to web supps like Ivid etc. To me, the question is not so much what is "canon" as how much weight to give the varieties of canon. A lot of the 3E GH references are IMO problematic to a greater extent but I would not dismiss them as less "real." At the risk of turning this into yet another canon thread, I would have to disagree that Gygax's post-TSR works fall under the heading of "canon." Everyone seems to have a different definition of "canon," always in accord with their own ideas about what they like. However, I think that canon needs to be defined in terms of what has been officially established about the setting (i.e., what future products in the setting need to take account of). That said, I am not sure that the "generica" produced lately really qualifies. That doesn't prevent you from using it in your campaign, and what you've suggested in this thread is very interesting and obviously well thought-out.
#6 ripvanwormer May 24, 2005 15:51:13	In the sense of "an ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council" canon can only be determined by some authority, for example the RPGA, the editorial standards at Paizo, or Wizards of the Coast (or, of course, the individual DM). In that sense of the word, Races of Destiny probably isn't canonical (in the last case, I don't think Wizards of the Coast limits its designers with any sort of canon; if they do, it's probably limited to the three core books). In the sense of "a basis for judgment; a standard or criterion" Greyhawk canon might be the 1983 boxed set, or Ivid the Undying, or the Living Greyhawk Journals, and the question would be whether or not a source matches the high standards set by those texts and is consistent with them as far as setting continuity goes. In the sense of "a group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field" Greyhawk canon would include things like the the World of Greyhawk boxed set, Greyhawk Adventures, From the Ashes, the Gord series, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, the Oerth Journals, the Living Greyhawk Journals, Canonfire!. and The Adventure Begins - things that say Greyhawk on the cover or otherwise obviously belong to the setting and help define the setting, (in theory) whether or not we personally like them and regardless of their "official" status. In this sense, I think Races of Destiny is iffy; it's more part of the 3e D&D canon than the Greyhawk canon. It doesn't really represent Greyhawkia as such. In the sense of "a composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time" Races of Destiny could be part of a Greyhawk canon: Greyhawk and D&D, working together in harmony to form a greater melody. I tend to use the word "Nearhawk" to describe generic 3e supplements that make use of Oerth's proper nouns. In none of these definitions would I say that such generica shouldn't be used to enhance an individual campaign, but I don't think the word "canon" really fits in most instances.
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 02, 2005 1:17:34	I simply think that GH has enough deities already. However, just because Greyhawk is the "default setting" for D&D doesn't mean everything that doesn't have a campaign name attached to it is Greyhawk. WotC has intentionally made all of their products so generic that they fit seemlessly into any campaign world with little adaptation necessary. I strongly doubt their intention with the new deities in the accessory books is to add them to the Greyhawk pantheon. These accessories are, by definition, options, and the deities are the same.
#8 Greyson Jun 02, 2005 12:34:56	I simply think that GH has enough deities already. I agree with that sentiment whole heartedly. I know Rostoff distilled the list of Greyhawk gods in his campaign to sixteen - from one hundred eighty-four! I do not think that Greyhawk needs yet another deity. I can support the notion that Zarus is the reinterpretation of an exisitng deity. Anyway, I posted a link at Canonfire!'s World of Greyhawk Discussion forum detailing the deities of Living Greyhawk for meta game use in the campaign. It is a long list. Check out the sources Conforti used to develop the list of deities for the campaign on the cover page. LG Deities
#9 gv_dammerung Jun 04, 2005 23:31:23	IMO, as Zarus is the racial deity of "humans," he like Corelleon, Moradin, Garal Glittergold, Yondalla etc. is a universal god for all settings. Besides, he is referenced to GH deities, supplying another connection. "Too many gods" does not trump either "racial god universality" or "canon" references. IMO.
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2005 3:45:11	You're entitled to your opinion. The fact remains that Zarus is not part of the Greyhawk pantheon. Your disdain for canon belies the fact that WotC is not publishing Greyhawk source material anymore. They are publishing D&D source material, which is generic and not tailored to any one campaign world. There's nothing keeping you from using the Asgardian pantheon in a Greyhawk campaign if you want. Very few people would actually consider it a Greyhawk campaign though since it is contradictory to established sources for the world; few committed Greyhawk fans would want to play in such a campaign. The same goes with Zarus, although the addition of one god probably wouldn't rub as many people the wrong way as overhauling the entire pantheon. On an unrelated note, I don't see how Zarus can represent humans as Moradin or Corellon do dwarves and elves respectively. First of all, to have a god who represents humans is a difficult thing to do since humans run the gamut of alignments, backgrounds, and lifestyles. Dwarves share in common their underground origins, while elves are all created from the blood of Corellon and dwell primarily in forests. Humans have no such powerful myth binding them together as a racial entity. Not to mention Zarus is something of a tyrannical figure. The chief gods of the demihumans are all good aligned and tend to cooperate. This Zarus fellow doesn't even cooperate with other gods traditionally worshipped by humans. He fits the bill rather poorly if you ask me. Not that I don't think he can have a place in any campaign. I just don't think he's on the same level as Garl or Yondalla for their respective races.
#11 gv_dammerung Jun 08, 2005 9:08:10	You're entitled to your opinion. The fact remains that Zarus is not part of the Greyhawk pantheon. Your disdain for canon belies the fact that WotC is not publishing Greyhawk source material anymore. They are publishing D&D source material, which is generic and not tailored to any one campaign world. . . . On an unrelated note, I don't see how Zarus can represent humans as Moradin or Corellon do dwarves and elves respectively. First of all, to have a god who represents humans is a difficult thing to do since humans run the gamut of alignments, backgrounds, and lifestyles. Dwarves share in common their underground origins, while elves are all created from the blood of Corellon and dwell primarily in forests. Humans have no such powerful myth binding them together as a racial entity. Not to mention Zarus is something of a tyrannical figure. The chief gods of the demihumans are all good aligned and tend to cooperate. Well . . . The nub of the matter lies in the 3E Greyhawk "default." Is that "canon?" Your opinion appears to be "no" but your opinion is not necessarily equivalent to the "fact" of the matter. The matter is open to substantial question all the way around. If one accepts the 3E "default," Zarus is "canon." That he is referenced to other GH deities further makes this "case." If one does not accept the 3E "default" . . . that would be as may be. The idea that Zarus somehow "cannot" be the racial god of humanity is quaint. It overlooks, ignores, the text, which provides the myth etc. establishing Zarus' bone fides. It also takes a "goody-two shoes" view of humanity at odds with both actual human history and human history within Greyhawk. Humans are not "inherently" "good," to judge by their actions, except from their own self-interested standpoint. Objectively, the case can be made for an "evil" patron deity, particularly if you stop to consider the nature of Zarus' evil, which is not the cackling Nerull sort nor that of the Abyss or Hells. Zarus' "evil" is very "human." Zarus is a troubling deity, yes, but his presence adds a great deal of complexity to humanity, perhaps not found in the more simple descriptions of some other races. IMO. Complex is good. Troubling is good. I don't roleplay simple morality plays of white hats and black hats. If you don't either, Zarus should not be of great concern. I find it immensely appealing to consider all of the philosophical questions Zarus' presence puts in play both with respect to good aligned humans and all of the other gods of humanity. Things just got immensely interesting. Interesting is good. Every DM can, of course, determine their own course.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2005 17:59:33	This is the last I'm gonna say on the subject since the most likely event is that we agree to disagree. Let me simply point out that for Wizards to be making new source material for Greyhawk, it really should have the GREYHAWK logo on it somewhere. There is a HUGE precedent for this. In the past, Greyhawk sourcebooks have been designed SOLELY for use in the World of Greyhawk, not other worlds. I think you would have to agree with me that Races of Destiny was not designed SOLELY for use in the WoG, ergo it is not a Greyhawk sourcebook. It is a sourcebook designed to be equally useful to all campaigns. The underlying issue here is that WotC does not produce GREYHAWK sourcebooks any more. They produce material for a generic setting, which, if you are a simple-minded DM is simply Greyhawk because you don't know any better. This is not to mention the fact that there is also a huge precedent for ANY campaign world (not just Greyhawk) to be very lax on allowing new deities to just waltz into the pantheon uninvited. There are a plethora of deities that have been introduced in the Races series and the Complete series which is more new gods than Greyhawk has seen in 25 years! That information alone speaks for itself. The "default Greyhawk" setting is not any more Greyhawk than it is Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, or Mystara. Every bit of it is designed with genericism in mind. It is official policy of WotC in fact. The gods, as described in the PH, don't even conform to traditional descriptions of those gods. The most glaring difference, as I believe most Greyhawkers will admit, is the fact that suddenly St. Cuthbert shifted alignment and became a god of retribution. In the past, deities change rank frequently enough, but portfolios remain largely the same. I wholeheartedly believe that WotC's intent in using Greyhawk as the default setting was simply to make it so that everything they presented was easily fitted into any campaign world. Had they been true to Greyhawk, that would have been difficult, so they changed a few things. They took only a handful of gods and rounded them out to be more representative of a complete pantheon in and of itself. This was for the benefit of those people who first picked up 3rd edition and said "Hey I'd like to try this out" so they didn't have to figure out how 50 different deities interacted with each other the first time they played. Saying Zarus is now a part of the "canon" Greyhawk pantheon is akin to fitting a square peg into a round hole. Sure, you can do it if you cram it enough, but something is going to be lost. In this sense, you lose continuity. A greater god just pops into existence? Yea, that happens all the time. [/sarcasm]
#13 xaean Sep 03, 2007 20:13:56	I agree that Zarus is a "generic god" rather than a Greyhawk God. Zarus fits into none of the existing campaign settings - neither Greyhawk nor Faerun - but he has great potential for building new campaign worlds - an evil god who doesn't see himself as evil is a new element and differnt from what we know from existing campaign settings, a blackguard in white, so to say. Clerics might channel positive energy - but they are as cruel and intolerant when it comes to members of other races as every follower of Bane. A powerful church that operates openly with the support of the populace is a new kind of antagonist compared to the secretive cults lurking in dungeons we all know.
#14 Cennedi Sep 05, 2007 18:07:07	Seems to me that the complete class books do not have the greyhawk logo on them and neither do the dragon books or the races of what have you books and yet all are considered to be integral to D&D. As D&D uses Greyhawk as its default setting one may assume that everything released not specifically FR or Eberron must in fact be set in the default setting of Greyhawk.
#15 vormaerin Sep 05, 2007 23:15:24	You could do that. But there is absolutely no reason to think you have to. Rulebooks are not campaign setting specific. The fact that GH was used as the core setting for a period of time does not mean that all things published are innately greyhawk. I can guarantee you that that authors were definitely not thinking about GH specifically when they were writing those core books. You can make a case for the 'core' adventures being GH canon, since adventures actually do have a setting implicit to them (though not necessarily any particular one) and they were largely written during that time before they abandoned any attempt at using GH as the 'core setting' in a way that meant slightly more than nothing.
#16 pauln6 Sep 06, 2007 6:05:38	I don't think Zarus can be a god of Eastern Oerik, Olman, or Touv because he is a greater god who has no references in any published 'Greyhawk' history. I know 'canon' tends to contradict itself - one minute Zagyg has no clerics, the next minute he does - but a greater god springing up just rides roughshod over all the published meterial. However, there is no reason why he couldn't be represented in one of the realms further west, with a smattering of worshippers along the Bakhoury Coast since there is no published history for the deities of these nations. His introduction into Oerik would have to be explained in such a way in my view.
#17 samwise Sep 06, 2007 12:53:50	Why are the humans of Oerth so sleazy that their patron deity is a racist? The demi-human deities are not. The humanoid deities are. Humans are in the same category as orcs and goblins?
#18 the_ubbergeek Sep 06, 2007 20:39:57	Demihumans are good, generaly. Humanoids are genetaly evil. Humans are much neutral. Do the math (and look at the real world).
#19 samwise Sep 06, 2007 20:55:41	Demihumans are good, generaly. Humanoids are genetaly evil. Humans are much neutral. Do the math (and look at the real world). Do what math? Being Neutral means you are a racist? Most people in the real world are racists? Even if that were true, I am not, and I think it is rather offensive to declare that taking pride in being human makes you a racist.
#20 johnbiles Sep 07, 2007 0:56:42	My own gut inclination, if I was to use Zarus, which I probably won't, would be to have him have been an old patron of the Suel Empire, whose worship helped lead it astray. After the fall of the Empire, he was blamed by even Suloise survivors for the disaster and his cult largely died out in the Eastern Flaaness, thus his absence from past materials.
#21 the_ubbergeek Sep 07, 2007 20:59:21	Do what math? Being Neutral means you are a racist? Most people in the real world are racists? Even if that were true, I am not, and I think it is rather offensive to declare that taking pride in being human makes you a racist. Also, you can be neutral and follow an evil god. And you can be racist and neutral. And judging by our own world, where humanity can't be said to be good or evil really, the world of Ghandi and Hitler... well...
#22 samwise Sep 07, 2007 21:05:41	Also, you can be neutral and follow an evil god. And you can be racist and neutral. You can be Good and follow an evil deity. That is irrelevant. I don't care what alignments are allowed to be racist. I am saying the presentation of a deity of pride in being human as a racist is a poor choice, particularly given that the racial deities of the demihumans are not portrayed as virulent racists by default. And judging by our own world, where humanity can't be said to be good or evil really, the world of Ghandi and Hitler... well... Well nothing. This isn't the real world, this is a game world. There are no alignments in the real world, just real moral and ethical choices. The game world is supposed to be something else.
#23 the_ubbergeek Sep 07, 2007 21:18:31	You can be Good and follow an evil deity. That is irrelevant. I don't care what alignments are allowed to be racist. I am saying the presentation of a deity of pride in being human as a racist is a poor choice, particularly given that the racial deities of the demihumans are not portrayed as virulent racists by default. Well nothing. This isn't the real world, this is a game world. There are no alignments in the real world, just real moral and ethical choices. The game world is supposed to be something else. Also, note... there is racism and racism. Humans tend to be xenophobic toward other races. We may not have fought the neandertals to extinction, I bet the contacts became bloody over time. And imagine in our modern days... The game world's humans are like ours. We share the same default; look at FR, Eberron, greyhawk, etc, and you will see the bad blood that happened, the racism in some periods and regions. Like the cormyrian attitude toward half-orcs, or the mulan slavery issue, both in FR. The dislike of gnomes in Eberron's main continent. Or the baklunish VS sueloise bad blood over the ages in greyhawk. A god like that dude is BOUND to happen, somewhere... we are like this in our bad moments. Nazi-grade racism perhaps not, but xenophobia overt, sure.
#24 samwise Sep 07, 2007 21:32:10	Also, note... there is racism and racism. Humans tend to be xenophobic toward other races. We may not have fought the neandertals to extinction, I bet the contacts became bloody over time. And imagine in our modern days... The game world's humans are like ours. We share the same default; look at FR, Eberron, greyhawk, etc, and you will see the bad blood that happened, the racism in some periods and regions. Like the cormyrian attitude toward half-orcs, or the mulan slavery issue, both in FR. The dislike of gnomes in Eberron's main continent. Or the baklunish VS sueloise bad blood over the ages in greyhawk. A god like that dude is BOUND to happen, somewhere... we are like this in our bad moments. Nazi-grade racism perhaps not, but xenophobia overt, sure. Except that is not how Zarus is presented. He is given as the generic deity of human pride, just as Moradin is the generic deity of Dwarven pride, Corellon is the generic deity of Elven pride, Garl is the generic deity of Gnomish pride, and Yondalla is the generic deity of Halfling pride. None of them embody the same sort of virulent racism as Zarus. As for real world comparisons, they are incorrect. There is no Zarus in any real world pantheon I can think of.
#25 the_ubbergeek Sep 08, 2007 0:35:23	Except that is not how Zarus is presented. He is given as the generic deity of human pride, just as Moradin is the generic deity of Dwarven pride, Corellon is the generic deity of Elven pride, Garl is the generic deity of Gnomish pride, and Yondalla is the generic deity of Halfling pride. None of them embody the same sort of virulent racism as Zarus. As for real world comparisons, they are incorrect. There is no Zarus in any real world pantheon I can think of. It sounds kind of like a futuristic theist/deist and far-right version of the Book Religions, though... Zarus would do well in a science-fiction novel on a far future America gone WRONG. Or Europe. Zarus is a fascinating, if disturbing, entry.
#26 zombiegleemax Sep 08, 2007 2:09:22	Bah! Remember that D&D is intended to be a "humanocentric" game. Hence, human religion cannot be simplified to the degree that demihuman or humanoid religion can. It's perfectly fine to have a "god of the dwarves? or "god of the orcs", but humans are not meant to be represented so simplistically. A "god of humans" cannot be reconciled with the history of D&D since it's inception.
#27 Cennedi Sep 08, 2007 11:40:45	Do what math? Being Neutral means you are a racist? Most people in the real world are racists? Even if that were true, I am not, and I think it is rather offensive to declare that taking pride in being human makes you a racist. maybe we should stop trying to apply modern ethics and morals to a fantasy medieval world. As for humans feeling superior to elves Im not sure if that is racist or species-ism? are elves **** sapians elfius? :p Congratulations on being non-racist and if you choose to carry that over into your campaign then more power to you but in greyhawk at large as is in the real world race creed and nationality are all reason for tensions hate and war. I find it odd that you would complain about the humans having a human supremist god as if every human deity is not human supremist by the very nature of being a human deity while ignoring orc supremacist gods such as gruumsh or really any race deity. do you believe moradin does not feel that dwarves are the superior race of all? political correctness has no place in a good fantasy setting.
#28 samwise Sep 08, 2007 14:16:44	maybe we should stop trying to apply modern ethics and morals to a fantasy medieval world. As for humans feeling superior to elves Im not sure if that is racist or species-ism? are elves **** sapians elfius? :p OK. Then what reasons exist for Zarus to be a racist human deity? Congratulations on being non-racist and if you choose to carry that over into your campaign then more power to you but in greyhawk at large as is in the real world race creed and nationality are all reason for tensions hate and war. I find it odd that you would complain about the humans having a human supremist god as if every human deity is not human supremist by the very nature of being a human deity while ignoring orc supremacist gods such as gruumsh or really any race deity. do you believe moradin does not feel that dwarves are the superior race of all? Humans are not generally evil as a race, orcs are. If Moradin feels dwarves are superior, why is he not a Lawful Evil diety of racism?
#29 xaean Sep 08, 2007 19:54:07	Because Moradin's priests don't go out slaying the heroes of other races and conquering the world. If you want a powerful and widely established church as an antagonist, Zarus has his place in your campaign. I think that quite many players of chaotic good or chaotic neutral PCs like to oppose such a religion - and they rarely have the opportunity in most campaigns. I don't think that the presence of Zarus in a setting should make humans a so called "evil race", just a race with a particular intolerant and oppressive church. Rarely if ever will Zarus have PC clerics, as most adventuring groups have non-human members. Human PCs might be lay worshippers of Zarus in the beginning but will likely lose their faith in the course of the campaign.
#30 crag Sep 09, 2007 0:22:18	Well I am not endorsing adding Zarus; personally I like a Polytheist approach and even for me GH has far too many deities. I find the argument that unlike the demi-human races, humanity is too diverse and good to have a racial deity somewhat absurd. Since when are the demi-humans Not diverse; they have far more subdivisions then man. Elves have a racial branch in every possible terrain, I see no "aquatic humans". Even the dwaves one of the most conservative races even have a swamp version in ItU. As for the alignment argument, even the cute gnomes, halflings, noble elves and stalwart dwarves have their share of "evil individuals" if not entire settlements. How much more questionable is humanity when entire empires spanning the dawn of history to the present can safely be termed "evil". Given the numerous empires some lasting centuries, I would argue that the good noble human kingdom is rare and the exception rather then the rule for GH history. Even the noble kingdoms tend to go through several questionable expansionistic phases, power and all that. While the monotheistic aspect of Zarus is different and to place him as easily as possible the far western oerth appears best. I see no fundamental reason he can't be placed within GH, after all he wouldn't be the first GH diety or his followers that are self-deluded about their own importance within the cosmos.
#31 samwise Sep 09, 2007 9:57:52	Because Moradin's priests don't go out slaying the heroes of other races and conquering the world. Sure they do. There are dwarven PCs out there, and high level dwarven NPCs out there. Both go wandering about, slaughtering their enemies, looking to expand their dwarven lands, and find new areas to mine.
#32 Brom_Blackforge Sep 14, 2007 13:56:22	And judging by our own world, where humanity can't be said to be good or evil really, the world of Ghandi and Hitler... well... Godwin's Law strikes again....
#33 the_ubbergeek Sep 15, 2007 10:00:35	Godwin's Law strikes again.... You cant really dodge that one at times, ya know...
#34 ripvanwormer Sep 18, 2007 15:59:54	Hm. If you combine the myth of Zarus with the myth of Vashar in the Book of Vile Darkness, perhaps Zarus was the original creator of (the evil) first man Vashar, who was then slain in disgust by the other gods and resurrected by Graz'zt. Modern humans would have had a different creator or creators, made in an attempt to "fix" Zarus' mistake.