Problems (personal) with Ravenloft...

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

bewildered_dm_dup

May 24, 2005 19:55:35
Ravenloft is by far my favorite setting. Ten years ago or so, I played in a campaign based in Lamordia and it was my favorite D&D experience ever.

While playing, certain "problems" began to crop up and I was wondering if anyone ever experienced anything similar and if so how they dealt with it. Of course everyone is different, but here are my problems:

1.) Demihumans: I know why demihumans are in the Demiplane of Dread, but I believe they take some of the horror edge out of the setting. By their very nature, they are somewhat "fantastic" and their ubiquitous presence makes them rather common place and thus dilutes the supernatural versus natural aspects of Ravenloft.

2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd.

3.) Domains with different "tech" levels: If a Lamordian with an arquebus travels to Falkovnia which still uses full plate and swords, how does he rectify that in his mind, given that in this particular case travel between the two domains is a matter of walking down the road connecting the two countries?

4.) Magic: What's a good balance? With all the evil within Ravenloft, magic can only be viewed as a double-edged sword at best by the general populance. If magic is rare, then magic-users can't help but be viewed with a cautious eye in the best of circumstances and quite possibly out-and-out hostility. If magic is common, then see problem 1.) above.

I actually know that there are answers to each of these questions within the Ravenloft "scheme" (domains come from different settings which have elves, dwarves, pantheons, etc.; the Mists can keep travelers from traveling to different Domains, the Mists can wipe the memory of travelers, etc.).

I guess what I'm asking is: are there any folks that have felt similar to me or have addressed some of these issues?

Also, anyone got any good rules for firearms in Ravenloft (mechanics especially)?

Thanks!
#2

zombiegleemax

May 24, 2005 20:15:53
"1.) Demihumans: I know why demihumans are in the Demiplane of Dread, but I believe they take some of the horror edge out of the setting. By their very nature, they are somewhat "fantastic" and their ubiquitous presence makes them rather common place and thus dilutes the supernatural versus natural aspects of Ravenloft."

Well vampires and golems are also quite fantastic...

"2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd."

Most religions are monotheists... and in the real world where most gothic story take place there are many religions/cult and it work well...

"3.) Domains with different "tech" levels: If a Lamordian with an arquebus travels to Falkovnia which still uses full plate and swords, how does he rectify that in his mind, given that in this particular case travel between the two domains is a matter of walking down the road connecting the two countries?"

Well during renaissance armor and swords were still used... I mean guns started to be used in medieval time... there technological differenes are not that big I mean remember that during ww2 polish cavalry charged german panzer with cavalier armed with swords...
#3

bewildered_dm_dup

May 24, 2005 20:44:06
Well vampires and golems are also quite fantastic...

Yeah, but they are the enemy and not commonplace in the town square I hope...

Most religions are monotheists... and in the real world where most gothic story take place there are many religions/cult and it work well...

Most Western religions are monotheistic and worship the same God, but just practice differently (Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.). A couple of different religions, cool, but not a pantheon of gods.

Well during renaissance armor and swords were still used... I mean guns started to be used in medieval time... there technological differenes are not that big I mean remember that during ww2 polish cavalry charged german panzer with cavalier armed with swords...

Yes, armor and swords were still used, but differently (rapiers for example, instead of bastard swords). The WW2 example is a non-arguement: Poland had tanks, too, but they were inferior and they were outnumbered. The tech level for all intents and purposes is the same. Don't just get hung up on weapons as an example. Imagine medieval villages and Renaissance villages: maybe not a major difference, but big enough for the medieval folks to want the advantages that the Renaissance folks have!
#4

scipion_emilien

May 24, 2005 21:56:46
1.) Demihumans: I know why demihumans are in the Demiplane of Dread, but I believe they take some of the horror edge out of the setting. By their very nature, they are somewhat "fantastic" and their ubiquitous presence makes them rather common place and thus dilutes the supernatural versus natural aspects of Ravenloft.

On the others hand, those race are an occasion to explore human nature (and horror) from the point of view of an alien. Perosnnaly my principal problem with them is because they see in the dark, a dark and gloomy atmosphere is sometime hard to make while the dawrf of the team is seeing perfectcly the scene the humans only see in shades.

2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd.

Each region has is own dominat religion, and if you don t pray the local gods, you must be quiet if you don t want to get trouble. The main problem in my opinion is how people in the most evoluate domain can renounce to belive when a cleric can heal so easily the wounds. Clerics are simply to much important for a society to renounce to them in D&D.

3.) Domains with different "tech" levels: If a Lamordian with an arquebus travels to Falkovnia which still uses full plate and swords, how does he rectify that in his mind, given that in this particular case travel between the two domains is a matter of walking down the road connecting the two countries?

Personnaly i think they are law in the 4 towers alliances on the control of firearms technology, to make it harder for the falkovnian to get it. And perhaps Falkovnia simply lack the science or interest to product itself firearms.

4.) Magic: What's a good balance? With all the evil within Ravenloft, magic can only be viewed as a double-edged sword at best by the general populance. If magic is rare, then magic-users can't help but be viewed with a cautious eye in the best of circumstances and quite possibly out-and-out hostility. If magic is common, then see problem 1.) above.

This one, i really didn't find solutions. I guess it is on the experience of the dungeon master to make the guidelines, and beacuse i DM since one year, i have trouble with this one. If someone has done a list of magic item and spell rarity with the average caster lvl of in the demi-plane of ravenloft, i would be glad to get it to get an overall idea how to make it work instead of going bu the nose.
#5

malus_black

May 25, 2005 7:29:16
1.) Demihumans: I know why demihumans are in the Demiplane of Dread, but I believe they take some of the horror edge out of the setting. By their very nature, they are somewhat "fantastic" and their ubiquitous presence makes them rather common place and thus dilutes the supernatural versus natural aspects of Ravenloft.

I agree. Ravenloft was originally supposed to be a blend between fantasy role-playing and gothic horror, and, although it has evolved to lean more towards the latter, some of the fantasy still remains. However, it is important to remember that they are extremely rare outside their specific domains and Darkon. You are right that vampires and golems don't walk around in the town square, but neither do demihumans unless they want to experience a lynch mob first-hand. Another thing to keep in mind is to give demihumans a darker tone than in most fantasy settings. Make them mysterious, shroud them in legend, give them the folkloric fey template if you must, but remember that they are not human, and in a human-centered setting they will be viewed with suspicion, fear, and possibly some awe.

2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd.

Pantheon? What pantheon? As others have pointed out, each region has its own, mainly monotheistic, major religion. Ezra in the chivalric and renaissance domains and Darkon, the Morninglord in Barovia, and the Lawgiver in the Vaasi-speaking domains, with some very minor local religions here and there (the Overseer, for example). Only the most primitive domains (Tepest, Forlorn, etc.) actually have pantheons, and Tepest can hardly be counted as the Tepestani mainly worship Belenus.

3.) Domains with different "tech" levels: If a Lamordian with an arquebus travels to Falkovnia which still uses full plate and swords, how does he rectify that in his mind, given that in this particular case travel between the two domains is a matter of walking down the road connecting the two countries?

First of all, Falkvonia has gunpowder weapons, mainly purchased from Lamordia. And there are obviously parallels in the real world between industrial and development countries where the tech level can vary greatly just across the border. In the renaissance, when some countries invented and built, and others didn't catch up for some time, you can imagine how much greater these differences were.

4.) Magic: What's a good balance? With all the evil within Ravenloft, magic can only be viewed as a double-edged sword at best by the general populance. If magic is rare, then magic-users can't help but be viewed with a cautious eye in the best of circumstances and quite possibly out-and-out hostility. If magic is common, then see problem 1.) above.

You've pretty much got it. Magic is not the safe, ordered force it is in other settings. Magic is rare, and most peasants never knowingly encounter magic in their lifetime (actually, most peasants don't go more than a day's travel from their home, so there your are...). And yes, it should certainly have a different, darker flavor. Mages are, at best, obsessed with their magic. And as for the treatment they receive from ignorant peasants, think dark-ages Europe. If they reveal magical talents, have them be feared and distrusted. In places like Tepest, they might very well end up tied to a stake.
#6

gonzoron

May 25, 2005 13:40:40
Actually, Falkovnia doesn't use guns because they are considered 'uncivilized' by Vlad Drakov. He is a vain and proud man, who believes that what once worked should always work. Like some foolish nobles of the real world he believes that combat prowess should come from skill, training, and birthright, not from purchasing a mere machine. His views on magic are similar, although he begrudging allows the Ministry of Magic, but tries to get them to focus on enhancing "real" weapons rather than developing combat magic.
#7

bewildered_dm_dup

May 25, 2005 17:11:17
Malus Black,

Thanks for the great input. I've recently discovered The Fraternity of Shadows website and have practically blinded myself reading all the information there, thanks! I'm glad to see that it's "ok" to have Ravenloft a Human-based setting and that demihumans are considered rare.

To be honest, and I know it is radical, but if I ever DM Ravenloft, there will be no demihumans except for possible villians. I'll just have to modify some of the background info obviously. Also, and I'm not afraid to say it, religion would mirror that of Europe (where applicable, of course) for the last 1500-2000 years: Christianity, with snipits of Judaism and Islam. Pagans would definitely need to be "underground". And yes, I know I just stepped into a briar patch and yes, I do have my own ideas on how to handle those religions and still have a playable game and even playable clerics. Imagine the fun of a protestant Lamordia and a Catholic !

Each region has is own dominat religion, and if you don t pray the local gods, you must be quiet if you don t want to get trouble. The main problem in my opinion is how people in the most evoluate domain can renounce to belive when a cleric can heal so easily the wounds. Clerics are simply to much important for a society to renounce to them in D&D.

Scipion, I hear you, bro! Magical healing, although almost a necessity for game play, can really throw the flavor of the setting a bit off. I'm thinking, though, that I can borrow some information from the D20 Modern rules to help out on healing, etc.

Also, does anyone have any good rules/rules-of-thumb for handling firearms? I just bought "D20: Past" and I really like the material in it, esp. on firearms.
#8

zombiegleemax

May 25, 2005 23:43:39
"To be honest, and I know it is radical, but if I ever DM Ravenloft, there will be no demihumans except for possible villians. I'll just have to modify some of the background info obviously. Also, and I'm not afraid to say it, religion would mirror that of Europe (where applicable, of course) for the last 1500-2000 years: Christianity, with snipits of Judaism and Islam. Pagans would definitely need to be "underground". And yes, I know I just stepped into a briar patch and yes, I do have my own ideas on how to handle those religions and still have a playable game and even playable clerics. Imagine the fun of a protestant Lamordia and a Catholic !"

In that case you should play masque of the red deth: it seem more to be what you are looking for.
#9

zombiegleemax

May 25, 2005 23:47:09
"The main problem in my opinion is how people in the most evoluate domain can renounce to belive when a cleric can heal so easily the wounds. Clerics are simply to much important for a society to renounce to them in D&D."

Clerics are rare, high levle clerics are even rarer! I mean the high cleric of dementlieu is lvl 7 wich basicly mean most other lerics are around lvl 1-3 and around those level you dont have that many powerfull helaing/resurection spells. You cant even cure disease. Also renaissance domain have science wich is more efficient than a cleric(for healing disease especially, but for wound clerics are still better...). And since magic is known to exist I think many perosn think clerical magic is in fact only arcane magic and that it dont come directly from the gods.
#10

gonzoron

May 26, 2005 10:41:01
mephistopheless has a good point. MotRD seems to be what you're looking for. Realistic world (since it's, you know, THE world), demihumans so rare their treated as myth, low magic, real religions, etc.

But I'm sure it could work in Ravenloft too. The lack of Demihumans is quite easy. Just turn them into humans that have the qualities that are exagerrated in each race. (Gruff and Miserly or Hardworking humans for Dwarves. Elegant and learned humans for Elves. Scrappy and adventurous or comfortable and carefree humans for halflings. Crazy tinkering humans for gnomes.)

I like to keep their numbers low in my campaign too, but I do keep them around, especially since I play up the racism theme in Falkovnia. So far, I've had a grand total of:

2 elves. (1 a refugee from Falkovnia, and 1 a werefox captured by the Hunt Club for sport)
2 Dwarves (1 a refugee from Falkovnia, and Geddar Ironheart)
1 Half-elf (the first mate of the ship from NMNB)
1 Gnome (Abernathy Gearling)
2 Halflings (1 a refugee from Falkovnia, and 1 a crewman on the ship from NMNB)

Unless I'm missing any I forgot. So only 2 really living amongst humans, and those in the more "Enlightened areas"

As far as religion goes, I do think a monotheistic world with Christianity as the dominant faith is pretty central to gothic fiction. But I also think Ezra fits the bill perfectly. You've got the home faith (Catholics) with their hierarchy and great cathedral and Praesidius/Pope for Name of the Rose-style mystery, Notre-Dame des Paris-style intrigue, and Exorcist-style horror. You've got the Darkon branch (Fire and Brimstone Evangelists) for crusades against immorality, whipping up angry mobs and such. You've got the Mordent Branch (Protestants) who broke away due to perceived corruption. And the Dementlieu bransh (....um... Unitarians? New agers?) who seek their own personal understanding of Ezra by combing ancient texts for Da Vinci Code or Indiana Jones-style adventures.

And you've got the Sword/Cross symbol, and Ezra sacrificing herself for mortals, etc.

* Please note: I'm making sweeping generalizations here, and I don't mean to imply any thing about the real world of Christianity or its adherents, just how it's percieved in gothic and horror literature, and how that maps to Ezra. I don't mean that all Evangelical Christians are Lawful Evil or anything like that. *

Just as I prefer to play in Port-a-Lucine rather than Paris, I prefer to use Ezra rather than Christianity. But whatever floats your boat.
#11

bewildered_dm_dup

May 26, 2005 19:56:09
* Please note: I'm making sweeping generalizations here, and I don't mean to imply any thing about the real world of Christianity or its adherents, just how it's percieved in gothic and horror literature, and how that maps to Ezra. I don't mean that all Evangelical Christians are Lawful Evil or anything like that. *

Absolutely understood and I echo it 100%. I, too, was/am speaking in sweeping generalizations and don't intend to ruffle any feathers. It's a touchy subject, but one I am glad to see was treated with respect and openess!

Thanks a lot Gonzoron, your post helps a lot. It's really been about 10 years since I played in Ravenloft, but I've been buying source material and such throughout those years to keep my collection up. I guess I'm really basing my knowledge of the Realms on old, old info that wasn't that fleshed out in the beginning. The Church of Ezra and the comparisons you made were really cool.

Can Masque of the Red Death be played before the late 1800s? I'm think of a campaign set around 1550-1600 Earth tech level, probably in Lamordia. I honestly don't like Earth based campaigns because the locations are so familiar to players- in a general sense of course. I just bought the D20 Modern: D20 Past accessory and am very excited about the early firearms in there!

I'm glad for everyone's help. Folks here on the Ravenloft board seem to be a calmer, more thoughtful lot than some of the folks on the general D&D boards
#12

gonzoron

May 27, 2005 9:30:43
For the definative look at Ezra, check out the article Anchors of Faith in the Kargatane's Book of Secrets at www.kargatane.com. It was written by John Mangrum who became one of the major writers of early 3e Ravenloft, and most of the ideas in the article have cropped up in the various 3.x products.

By the way, the rules I use for firearms are just the simple ones in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting. (pretty much identical to the ones in the DMG). They may not be the most realistic, but they work fine for me.

I suppose you COULD play MotRD in the 1500's, but it would be a lot of work to convert, since all the existing material is focussed on the 1890's. Althought both editions of the MotRD campaign setting do have a history of Gothic Earth chapter, including a few paragraphs on the Renaissance.

It wasn't clear from your post how up-to-date you've kept with the books, but as you read the 3e books, especially the Campaign Setting and Gazetteers, if you haven't already, you'll see that a lot of care has been taken to make Ravenloft into a cohesive world, rather than isolated patchwork domains. So a lot of the troubling stuff (like Falkovnia's stubborn refusal to use firearms, or the level of healing magic available) is explained away.
#13

zombiegleemax

May 27, 2005 9:32:28
My version of ravenloft has no demihumans in it. Well obvious ones anyway.
I just dont feel they fit that well wandering around openly.

To re- enforce this point of a humancentric world. I add in a couple of encounters:

I once had them find a dwarf hanging from a Gibbet
with freak written underneath. His only crime being a dwarf.

The characters also met some elves - who were thought to be Lepers. However upon investigating these outcasts - they dicovered they were skin thieves rather than elves.

My other races hide amongst humans or in the wilderness. A drow assasin was a mid ranking member of the kargat - but she looked human - until hit at least.

Most of my players play humans - however the other characters quickly learn
to hide or face lynching, assasination or plain attack by very frightened or superstitious people.

This humancentric orientation (with the supernatural just bubbling below the surface -gives Rloft such a gritty feel for an RPG). IMHO
#14

zombiegleemax

May 29, 2005 2:58:49
(1) Demi-Humans in RL: Depends on whether the average population seems them as normal or as "grotesques". Its perfectly possible to play all the core domains except Sithicus without PC playable "demi-humans". Sithican elves could even be reworked into a more evolved (and perhaps feared) civilization seen by the rest of the core as monsters like the goblyns of Forlorn.
(2) Religion in RL: There are millions of Hindu on Earth worshiping a pantheon of dieites. Its not even clear that *any* dieties actually have influence in RL beyond the Dark powers.
(3) Tech Levels in RL: Japan, with the advantage of being an Island on the far side the world resisted gunpowder technology for a long time. The military advantages of gunpowder are largely irrelevant in a world where invasion is impossible. Given that many DLs don't want their populations capable of rising up against them it makes perfect sense to me for some domains to have guns but not others. That's before you factor in that there isn't as much travel between villages in RL as in other worlds (much between domains), and that predjudices might make some people distainful of anything that reeks of "godless Lamordia".
(4) Magic: I don't like the idea of magic levels and overall favor a low magic setting punctuated with a few very powerful NPC Wizards (Strahd, Azalin, Hazlik) who generally don't tollerate competetors.

Can Masque of the Red Death be played before the late 1800s? I'm think of a campaign set around 1550-1600 Earth tech level, probably in Lamordia. I honestly don't like Earth based campaigns because the locations are so familiar to players- in a general sense of course. I just bought the D20 Modern: D20 Past accessory and am very excited about the early firearms in there!

I also liked the d20 past book. James Wyatt rarely disappoints.

Going from the Victorian Age to the Elizabethian Age is not difficult. The history and social mores obviously needs to be changed to reflect the time period, and guns scaled back but the premise translates well. Let suggest that before you splurge on the MotRD book you look at the free rules it was developed from (the RPGA Living Death campaign) at www.livingdeath.org (there is also a living death yahoo group). I also *highly* recomend the old product A Mighty Fortress which was developed for playing 2E AD&D in the Elizabethian Age - and has wonderfully developed times lines, commentary on what the world was like and a few adventure ideas to get you started.

A sidebar on guns:
If you want to make guns more deadly and the campaign "grittier" discard the current critical rules and create "exploding dice" where if you roll the maximum value on the dice (such as a 6 on a d6) you keep the value (in this case 6) and roll again adding to the total. Its very rare, but possible, to get very high scores. This keeps high level PCs from charging headlong into a hail of bullets.

On a related note: To get an Elizabethian "feel" of fire first and then charge with bayonents and swords, make the loading time equal to 2 full rounds (or 1 shot every 3 rounds...about 18 seconds). 3 shots a minute seems about right from what I've read. A feat for "rapid reloading" would lower the time to 1 round. 5 volleys a minute is almost certainly faster than any real world units, but hey, the PCs are exceptional heroes right?
#15

scipion_emilien

May 29, 2005 16:09:43
A sidebar on guns:
If you want to make guns more deadly and the campaign "grittier" discard the current critical rules and create "exploding dice" where if you roll the maximum value on the dice (such as a 6 on a d6) you keep the value (in this case 6) and roll again adding to the total. Its very rare, but possible, to get very high scores. This keeps high level PCs from charging headlong into a hail of bullets.

Good idea, i think i will use it along with the fact that armor AC is ignore in the first range increment. It will make firearms really deadly even if they are a little crappy and explain why in the renaissance domain, full plate are seen odd by the people.
#16

rotipher

May 31, 2005 17:06:10
Another thing to keep in mind about demihuman PCs in Ravenloft is to recall that just because you're a dwarf/elf/etc, doesn't mean you're immune to dark fears and superstitions. Quite apart from demihumans being the *target* of such feelings, you can also emphasize that the non-humans have their own cultural heritage of dread and folklore ... indeed, a newbie demihuman PC may well have a number of fearborn misconceptions about HUMANS, that make even his or her fellow PCs seem frightening and alien! ("Now, Aerival, be very careful not to turn your back on those Round-Ears after a battle, no matter how honorable they pretend to be; everyone *knows* humans can't resist the taste of elven blood, if they catch a whiff of it...!")
#17

scipion_emilien

May 31, 2005 20:30:41
While browsing the numerous netbook of the kagatane and the FoS, i found an article in quote of the raven 4 name: "love, labour and lynch mobs" that explain how demi-humans are perceive by others in ravenloft, if this could help you.
#18

zombiegleemax

Jun 01, 2005 15:22:51
Good idea, i think i will use it along with the fact that armor AC is ignore in the first range increment. It will make firearms really deadly even if they are a little crappy and explain why in the renaissance domain, full plate are seen odd by the people.

Well it would be cool... but hostorically spekaing full plate fell out of flavor because it costed a lot and because cavalry started to be inneficient(pikeman where more efficient). Also during medieval time war where less deadly, and armor where made to protect nobleman, because most of the the noble prisonners could be exchanged for a ransom. Thing changed in renaissance: those of noble dessent where commander and poeple where not supposed to shoot them. Also during peasant revolts full plates where unusefull because even if you were a noble they would kill you...
#19

Pauper

Jun 01, 2005 16:28:18
1.) Demihumans: I know why demihumans are in the Demiplane of Dread, but I believe they take some of the horror edge out of the setting. By their very nature, they are somewhat "fantastic" and their ubiquitous presence makes them rather common place and thus dilutes the supernatural versus natural aspects of Ravenloft.

I understand your concern, but you really don't need to feature demihumans all that prominently in Ravenloft if you don't want to - glancing through the Gazetteers reminds me that most 'civilized' domains are over 90% human, and some domains are almost exclusively human (Lamordia and Barovia, for instance). Even in a somewhat cosmopolitan domain like Darkon, the non-humans tend to congregate amongst themselves rather than assimilate into the dominant human population. If you don't want dwarves and elves in the town square, the setting supports you (unless you go somewhere where the nonhumans exist in numbers).

On the flip side of the coin, if you want to prevent your players from playing nonhuman PCs, that's a bit harder - so long as the fantasy element exists, some players will want to be elves, dwarves, or the like. You could forbid the use of nonhuman PC races entirely, but a better option might be to rigorously enforce the Outcast Rating rules in the setting.

2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd.

As noted above, most domains are fairly monotheistic (or atheistic, in the case of Lamordia). In addition, the gods of Ravenloft don't take nearly as active a role in mortal affairs as the gods of Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms, so if your players are expecting a game of divine interventions and high magic, just because the core rules are similar to those used in those other settings, you should take pains to point out that they're mistaken. In fact, the more visible the religion, the less actual divine power it tends to wield (the Eternal Order in Darkon being perhaps the best example, though the faith of Zhakata isn't far behind). And the less visible the religion, the greater the likelihood of persecution by those in power (the witches of Hala being perhaps the best example, though followers of the Morninglord might be persecuted in Barovia as well, for obvious reasons).

3.) Domains with different "tech" levels: If a Lamordian with an arquebus travels to Falkovnia which still uses full plate and swords, how does he rectify that in his mind, given that in this particular case travel between the two domains is a matter of walking down the road connecting the two countries?

Again, well answered already. In this specific case, the Lamordian might dismiss the Falkovnians around him as 'hopelessly backward' and 'hidebound to tradition', while the Falkovnians might well ask why the Lamordian relies on such a slow weapon when a good sword will run him through before he can even finish reloading.

Similarly, this comment...

Imagine medieval villages and Renaissance villages: maybe not a major difference, but big enough for the medieval folks to want the advantages that the Renaissance folks have!

...doesn't necessarily reflect the thoughts of the people on the scene - the author is assuming an ethic of 'progress=good' that isn't at all universal. As an example, China is known to have made certain technological advances (block printing, gunpowder) centuries before the West, and to have had cultural contact with Western nations for centuries, yet their devotion to their own culture and traditions left them, by comparison, technologically backward at the dawn of the 20th century.

I suspect the medieval village might dismiss the renaissance village as being populated with reckless libertines who don't know their place - particularly when the second edge of technological advance strikes (greater population density leading to poor hygiene and virulent plagues, population and technological advance leading to pollution - the stench of a renaissance village that isn't built on the scale of a Venice or the like, with horses voiding themselves in the streets and citizens dumping their chamberpots into the unpaved throughways, might well drive a medieval peasant back to his small, relatively bucolic village thankful to have escaped what appears just below the surface to be a hell on Earth.)

4.) Magic: What's a good balance? With all the evil within Ravenloft, magic can only be viewed as a double-edged sword at best by the general populance. If magic is rare, then magic-users can't help but be viewed with a cautious eye in the best of circumstances and quite possibly out-and-out hostility. If magic is common, then see problem 1.) above.

Magic isn't common among the larger population of Ravenloft, though again, I suspect you're thinking of your players rather than the world itself. A nice house-rule that might help to enforce the 'magic is usually hidden and dangerous' ethic of Ravenloft is to temporarily increase the Outcast Rating of anyone using an obvious spell by the level of the spell, unless they can somehow prevent any witnesses from communicating the fact to the rest of the local populace. (S in the Gazetteers describes just this sort of thing on more than one occasion, and she usually ends up leaving town anyway shortly after such an event, just to be on the safe side.)

If your players persist in flaunting their power, it'll go up the chain of command - there are few areas in Ravenloft where such things can occur without either the authorities or the darklord (often both) finding out and taking action - and at that point, your players' heroes are probably lost.

If they persist, may I suggest that perhaps they'd be better off playing in a more 'typical' campaign setting, maybe with a few more scary monsters than usual.

Also, anyone got any good rules for firearms in Ravenloft (mechanics especially)?

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking here - the existing rules seem more than adequate to me. What sorts of rules do you feel are lacking?

--
Pauper
#20

lobotaru

Jun 02, 2005 19:32:03
I personally haven't encountered those problems in Ravenloft/Dread Realms. While there are demi-humans in the setting, they have a much darker attitude than in other settings. Take the elves of Sithicus for example. They have the trappings of elven civilization, but they have also given into the despair that characterizes the dread realms. Even the humor carried by most gnomes tends to have a dark and grim edge to it.
As for the technology levels, I don't really think its all that different from what many other people posted on the board. It is basically Medeival Europe!
#21

zombiegleemax

Jun 03, 2005 2:18:31
Magic: I just wanted to mention one thing that bears consideration with regards to magic - the Magic Levels by domain in the Ravenloft DMG. Perhps your are looking for a sterner control on it, or a greater fear. If that't the case, I wholehartedly agree with the Outcast Rating suggestion - if you cast an obvious spell, actually.

See, the thing that destroys the feel with magic is not so much it's existance as it's bruteness. Even subtle changes to the way spells work - like fireball being "invisible" until it explodes - can amake a big difference. In the example above, you make an inconsequential change, but really highten the unkown, mysterious and supernatural effect of the magin: a large area just burst into flames, with no apparent cause save the waving hands of the spellcaster.

And this type of "we fear him because we cannot understand the cause and effect of his powers (and the powers themselves)" really adds weight to the whole outcast idea and the witch phenomenon.

Demihumans: it's all in the backstory, really, as far as characters are concerned. the fact is, playing even something as "innocuous" as a dwarf is a big challenge, and needs to be accounted for. (I agree that they should be "invisible" in most domains. My PCs almost NEVER want to play demihumans without VERY careful consideration, thatk God!)

having said that, here a concept that worked well. a half-elf from Falkovnia, whose mother was human. When the character was born, she realised the child was her lover's and not her husband's, so she cut off the tops of the baby's ears with a dull knife and then, when the husband (a soldier) returned home, she told him the dogs had attacked the baby and disfigured his ears. The dogs and the "negligent midwife" were killed and the baby grew up never knowing he was half-elven. Obviously, he kept his gifts hidden as well. [He eventually became a terrible killer - babies, innocents, you name it - , but during the Dead Man's Campaigns became a Cold One and lost all memory of his violent past. he used to be called The Butcher of Falkovnia, but he could only remember the TITLE, so he openned a butcher's shop in INvidia, thinking he had always been a butcher. The PC died never knowing he was half-elven.]

Of course, a little not-so-powerful magic can go a long way towards aiding some demihumans bet buy, at least with strangers in superficial situations.

Religions: The religous thing seems minor - after all, in most places the masses are not very devout. The Church of Ezra is a very "Christian"-style organization, in many ways, with the various sects, etc. As for the others, we just choose to assume that each rweligion views itsel;f as the "rgith" one. Another approach is to have all the gods be considered aspects of the same being, so you can make your monotheism accross the board that way. In fatc, it's not dissimilar from saint cults in christianity's history and that's a good way to work every god into every religion in some way - as a saint or "devil". (Like the babylonian gods in t5he Old testament, say...)

Tech Levels: Much of the campaign setting noww explains these diffetrences to some extent. Personally, I think stubborn human refusal to change in a xenophbic world where "real" news travels very slowly is the best explanation. In other places, you might say change is good. IN ravneloft, change is seen as bad, mostly.
#22

gonzoron

Jun 03, 2005 12:29:55
[Another approach is to have all the gods be considered aspects of the same being, so you can make your monotheism accross the board that way. In fatc, it's not dissimilar from saint cults in christianity's history and that's a good way to work every god into every religion in some way - as a saint or "devil". (Like the babylonian gods in t5he Old testament, say...)

In a similar vein, it amuses me to no end that the Lawgiver's official teachings acknowledge Ezra and Hala, but only as the Lawgiver's concubines! (in Gaz V, and/or Gaz I, I think)
#23

zombiegleemax

Jun 03, 2005 15:22:27
For the gun vs armor stuff You should consider checking this site:



http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

For example while the spanish and french were using armors, brits where using none or really light one! It laos tlak about knights who where using arquebuse as a weapon...
#24

manindarkness

Jun 06, 2005 18:03:25
2.) Multiple religions: With Gothic horror as not only the backdrop, but the very essence of Ravenloft, I find it hard to reconcile multiple religions and the Gothic horror theme. Especially in advanced domains, the idea of a "pantheon" of gods in Western-based domains seems odd.

Deep in the wilderness, the deities of days forgotten still live, waiting to strike at those that do not acknowledge them. They may not be what modern ideals refer to gods, but they are powerful beings nevertheless. The less sofisticated pesants know of them and still pay them homage, to apease them. But the nobility, far from the fields, are amused by this behavior. May the ancient spirits be mercifull of those that deny them when they are near.

Monotheism has been historically really true to the instructed only. The saints are a form polytheism, as are geniekind in Islam. Many older deities became demons in the monothistic religions, but some legendary saints are only those deities with other names. Even the Buddha became a Catholic saint in this way, but with a femenine name.

Christianism needed the inquisition to purge the polytheistic tendencies. There is no inquisition-type organization is the more advanced domains on Ravenloft, as the inhabitants of said domains would feel it barbaric. Deviations from the established form of devotion would be common.
#25

zombiegleemax

Jun 07, 2005 15:02:28
. Given that many DLs don't want their populations capable of rising up against them it makes perfect sense to me for some domains to have guns but not others.

Exactly. That's actually the main advantage of firearms: They're easy to train with. (Compared to bows, or even swords) Firearms are the Great Equalizer in that sense.

Well it would be cool... but hostorically spekaing full plate fell out of flavor because it costed a lot and because cavalry started to be inneficient(pikeman where more efficient). Also during medieval time war where less deadly, and armor where made to protect nobleman, because most of the the noble prisonners could be exchanged for a ransom. Thing changed in renaissance: those of noble dessent where commander and poeple where not supposed to shoot them. Also during peasant revolts full plates where unusefull because even if you were a noble they would kill you...

Don't discount Heavy Cavalry though. Just look at Kirkholm. The problem wasn't as much that Heavy Cavalry went useless overnight but that the cost/effectiveness ratio slowly decreased. *If* you could get a surprise with those knights, or the musketeers or pikemen lost thier nerve, then a massacre of the poor infantry would be the result.

And remember, it's a social issue as well as a military one. Relying on hired musketeers meant *not* relying on levied noblemen. An important distinction for the princes of the day.
#26

zombiegleemax

Jun 13, 2005 1:41:14
I guess what I'm asking is: are there any folks that have felt similar to me or have addressed some of these issues?

Drop the domains that you don't like, and or everything that falls under their "umbrella" that you don't like. To beat through the bush...

Obviously it's your choice if you want to role play these decisions or not.
#27

zombiegleemax

Jun 13, 2005 22:02:45
One thing that you could do is flatten the Cultural Level of Ravenloft so that it is, for the most part, balanced. Assign the Core a CL and then range the CL of the islands and all other domains as you see fit. Leave the odd domain at the extreme end of the CL list for plot seasoning ala the Lost World, or some sort of blast from the future.

If you want to gig in the same domain but with a different CL, then adjust the calendar year to expand the time line pre or post. Or you could play the Mistway/portal/gateway/curse/Captain America thing.

If you go this second route, providing and detailing several eras of Ravenloft (there's a product for you "Ravenloft: Bloodlines"), then you open up a whole new world of personalised Dark Lords and domains. Hell, you could even replace Azalin or Strahd (or any of the Dark Lords for that matter) for a session or three, and then go back to them whenever you're done your "What If?" adventure(s). You can then also modernise Ravenloft, combine other RPG worlds even more smoothly...endless possibilities really.

But then again, this should always have been an option in your head the moment you first picked up a Ravenloft book/product. :D