Preserver "Jihad" - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Preserver "Jihad"

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 12, 2005 11:50:33 I was wondering what people thought about the whole concept of Rajaat's war against the preservers. His motive, means, etc. The simplest explanation that has occurred to me is that Rajaat wanted to eliminate a major source of resistance to his champions before the Cleansing Wars picked up much steam. However, I have two other thoughts about it: First, that many of the Preservers were allied or loyal to the Pyreen and this was Rajaats way of destroying the power networks surrounding his own people (whom he most likely feared more than any other single race). Perhaps he hoped to isolate and scatter the Pyreen, although I seem to recall that the canon mentions they did resist him in some organized way. The second idea is this: Rajaat wanted to ensure that the Cleansing Wars could preceed without interference from the outer planes. I've always gotten the impression that by the Late Green Age the means to produce psionic artifacts like Dregoth's Planar Gate had been lost, or were relatively rare. This would have left the ability to access the outer planes in the hands of arcane spellcasters. Maybe Rajaat wanted to systematically destroy that knowledge, to keep any who would stand in his way from bringing aid from the outer planes. Just a couple thoughts. I'd love to hear what other people have to say about it.
#2
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 12, 2005 14:47:24
The second idea is this: Rajaat wanted to ensure that the Cleansing Wars could preceed without interference from the outer planes. I've always gotten the impression that by the Late Green Age the means to produce psionic artifacts like Dregoth's Planar Gate had been lost, or were relatively rare. This would have left the ability to access the outer planes in the hands of arcane spellcasters. Maybe Rajaat wanted to systematically destroy that knowledge, to keep any who would stand in his way from bringing aid from the outer planes.

You may have hit on something big there.

There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today.
#3
kalthandrix
Jun 12, 2005 15:58:22
You may have hit on something big there.

There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today.

IMO, I have never liked the idea that there were god in Athas...mainly due to the fact that humans and a majority of other races have actually only been aroung for 14,000 years or so and there is no mention of the halfling worshipping anything, so where would the gods have come from (perhaps a monkey-headed space ship...).

Now AB's being mistaken for gods, that is totally DS and I am all for that. The Tower could have changed someone or thing into a super powerful unique creature that people decided to worship and boom, you have a god and temples pop'n up like 7-11's. The term god (for DS at least) could have actually been part of the dudes name.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jun 12, 2005 16:41:01
You may have hit on something big there.

There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today.

I really like yngthoth's second idea although I'd thought that Athas was never connected to the Astral, which stopped the 'normal' development of magic on the planet and any connection to the Outer Planes.

IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.).
#5
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 13, 2005 22:08:53
I really like yngthoth's second idea although I'd thought that Athas was never connected to the Astral, which stopped the 'normal' development of magic on the planet and any connection to the Outer Planes.

IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.).

I like your take :D , you played planescape didn't you Bell?
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2005 15:24:06
I like your take :D , you played planescape didn't you Bell?

For a long time :D with Jon Winter who ran the Mimir web-site. Many happy hours with my trusty fighter.
#7
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 14, 2005 15:26:09
For a long time :D with Jon Winter who ran the Mimir web-site. Many happy hours with my trusty fighter.

Wow , with Jon :D . He was your DM? You luck bastard.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2005 15:38:06
Wow , with Jon :D . He was your DM? You luck bastard.

Yup, we ran alternate weeks for a couple of years, I did DS and he ran Planescape. Lots of fun and twisty plots, still don't trust the damn nasty evil, life saving, I can't live without it sword he gave me!
#9
kalthandrix
Jun 14, 2005 19:00:32
Yup, we ran alternate weeks for a couple of years, I did DS and he ran Planescape. Lots of fun and twisty plots, still don't trust the damn nasty evil, life saving, I can't live without it sword he gave me!

I love evil swords that you cannot live without

Would you mind sharing?????
#10
beyowulf
Jun 14, 2005 20:36:58
IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.).

I've always taken the view, that if people worship you as a god, than you're a god. So, yes, there were gods on Athas, even if they weren't technically so.
#11
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 15, 2005 7:17:09 Yah I have to agree, Athas having or not having gods is almost a matter of symantics rather than a real issue. I mean the supposed lack of gods hasn't prevented clerics and druids from having essentially the same spell casting and other abilities that their 'God' following counterparts have. And Templars are almost as divinely impowered as the others worldly though god like beings the SKs. The Sks actually have abilities that surpase some of the Demi and Lesser gods' of other worlds' avatars, if not actual selves. It actually puzzles me that anyone would claim that there aren't any gods considering the claims of God and gods in our own world without the same sort of proof that is readily found on Athas. Your average mid to high level cleric or druid can preform miracles in line with those supposedly preformed by real world prophets easily.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jun 15, 2005 11:09:34 Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain?

To drag the thread back on topic, here's how I handled it .

In order for something to be more than just a regular old war -- in order for it really to be a "jihad" or "righteous struggle" -- there has to be some cause around which it is oriented. Rajaat is immensely powerful, but the thought of an entire "war" lasting centuries and consisting entirely of him teleporting in solo and wiping out preservers one at a time is ludicrous.

So IMC at the time the war started there was a pan-athasian religion based on spurious misinterpretations of ancient halfling myths, and it was to this prejudice that Rajaat appealed to gain broad popular support from members of most of the races (remember, at this time he hadn't given any hint of future genocidal intentions). I tied this into a much larger story on my now-indefinitely-shelved Blue Shrine project.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jun 15, 2005 15:30:18
I love evil swords that you cannot live without

Would you mind sharing?????

My character, a reformed bog standard fighter (trying to forget his shady past... highly specialised in daggers, liked poison, caltrops... etc.) with no magical ability at all was having a very hard time in the plane-travelling environs. Gains, said sword, which starts by making itself useful, saving him and revealing new powers when needed, I only realised it was evil (many sessions later) when landing in holy water somewhere in the Seven Heavens and it began to burn (almost killed me hanging onto it, should have known when LG creatures kept looking at me funny in Sigil). Wanted to throw it away but it was just so damn useful… and great at amputation in a fight.
#14
beyowulf
Jun 15, 2005 15:40:05
Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain?

Sorceror Kings are gods. Spirits of the Lands are gods. Elemental Lords are gods. Maybe not technically speaking, but they are worshipped as such, so I'd define them as such.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jun 15, 2005 16:02:33
Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain?

'Athas has no gods and never will', doesn't mean it never had them :D just never will again.

To drag the thread back on topic, here's how I handled it .

In order for something to be more than just a regular old war -- in order for it really to be a "jihad" or "righteous struggle" -- there has to be some cause around which it is oriented. Rajaat is immensely powerful, but the thought of an entire "war" lasting centuries and consisting entirely of him teleporting in solo and wiping out preservers one at a time is ludicrous.

Regardless of the term ('jihad'), I guess you could regard this as a forerunner of the Cleansing Wars with a singular aim in mind. It does look like Rajaat and his followers were either overwhelming or very sneaky as the Preservers went into hiding. The fact that it took a thousand years suggest the probability of an initial wave of assassinations and then a covert war than a long-term open confrontation.

This 'jihad' would have also hardened Rajaat's followers and revealed the most determined and ruthless candidates for his future plans.

'134th King's Age (-4,312)
-King's Agitation
Rajaat begins a jihad against the preservers of Athas for the next thousand
years. Preservers across the land go into hiding while fighting a losing
battle against the followers of Rajaat.'
#16
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 15, 2005 23:56:42
Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain?

I think you missed the point of what I was saying, read my post again. I fully understand that Athas has no Gods and never will. I just don't see a big difference between an entity that has great power and the ability to grant spells to it's followers and a God. I mean, what is a God, that the various Athasian powers are not? The mere location of their home plane?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 12, 2005 11:50:33	I was wondering what people thought about the whole concept of Rajaat's war against the preservers. His motive, means, etc. The simplest explanation that has occurred to me is that Rajaat wanted to eliminate a major source of resistance to his champions before the Cleansing Wars picked up much steam. However, I have two other thoughts about it: First, that many of the Preservers were allied or loyal to the Pyreen and this was Rajaats way of destroying the power networks surrounding his own people (whom he most likely feared more than any other single race). Perhaps he hoped to isolate and scatter the Pyreen, although I seem to recall that the canon mentions they did resist him in some organized way. The second idea is this: Rajaat wanted to ensure that the Cleansing Wars could preceed without interference from the outer planes. I've always gotten the impression that by the Late Green Age the means to produce psionic artifacts like Dregoth's Planar Gate had been lost, or were relatively rare. This would have left the ability to access the outer planes in the hands of arcane spellcasters. Maybe Rajaat wanted to systematically destroy that knowledge, to keep any who would stand in his way from bringing aid from the outer planes. Just a couple thoughts. I'd love to hear what other people have to say about it.
#2 ruhl-than_sage Jun 12, 2005 14:47:24	The second idea is this: Rajaat wanted to ensure that the Cleansing Wars could preceed without interference from the outer planes. I've always gotten the impression that by the Late Green Age the means to produce psionic artifacts like Dregoth's Planar Gate had been lost, or were relatively rare. This would have left the ability to access the outer planes in the hands of arcane spellcasters. Maybe Rajaat wanted to systematically destroy that knowledge, to keep any who would stand in his way from bringing aid from the outer planes. You may have hit on something big there. There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today.
#3 kalthandrix Jun 12, 2005 15:58:22	You may have hit on something big there. There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today. IMO, I have never liked the idea that there were god in Athas...mainly due to the fact that humans and a majority of other races have actually only been aroung for 14,000 years or so and there is no mention of the halfling worshipping anything, so where would the gods have come from (perhaps a monkey-headed space ship...). Now AB's being mistaken for gods, that is totally DS and I am all for that. The Tower could have changed someone or thing into a super powerful unique creature that people decided to worship and boom, you have a god and temples pop'n up like 7-11's. The term god (for DS at least) could have actually been part of the dudes name.
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 12, 2005 16:41:01	You may have hit on something big there. There are alot of Green Age temples to 'Old Gods' scattered about Athas. Maybe Gods really did use to exsist on Athas and Rajaat somehow managed to create the Grey and the Black to seperate Athas from the Outer Planes cutting off the Gods from the Planet. Then again maybe the 'Old Gods' were merely advanced beings similar to the Avangions, Dragons, Elementals, and Spirits of the Land today. I really like yngthoth's second idea although I'd thought that Athas was never connected to the Astral, which stopped the 'normal' development of magic on the planet and any connection to the Outer Planes. IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.).
#5 ruhl-than_sage Jun 13, 2005 22:08:53	I really like yngthoth's second idea although I'd thought that Athas was never connected to the Astral, which stopped the 'normal' development of magic on the planet and any connection to the Outer Planes. IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.). I like your take :D , you played planescape didn't you Bell?
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2005 15:24:06	I like your take :D , you played planescape didn't you Bell? For a long time :D with Jon Winter who ran the Mimir web-site. Many happy hours with my trusty fighter.
#7 ruhl-than_sage Jun 14, 2005 15:26:09	For a long time :D with Jon Winter who ran the Mimir web-site. Many happy hours with my trusty fighter. Wow , with Jon :D . He was your DM? You luck bastard.
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2005 15:38:06	Wow , with Jon :D . He was your DM? You luck bastard. Yup, we ran alternate weeks for a couple of years, I did DS and he ran Planescape. Lots of fun and twisty plots, still don't trust the damn nasty evil, life saving, I can't live without it sword he gave me!
#9 kalthandrix Jun 14, 2005 19:00:32	Yup, we ran alternate weeks for a couple of years, I did DS and he ran Planescape. Lots of fun and twisty plots, still don't trust the damn nasty evil, life saving, I can't live without it sword he gave me! I love evil swords that you cannot live without Would you mind sharing?????
#10 beyowulf Jun 14, 2005 20:36:58	IMC I tend to view the 'Old Gods' as elemental beings that developed into Powers through time. Then the Cleansing Wars reduced them to their present state (something like the Spirits of the Land) through the destruction of organised religions (temples, priesthoods etc.). I've always taken the view, that if people worship you as a god, than you're a god. So, yes, there were gods on Athas, even if they weren't technically so.
#11 ruhl-than_sage Jun 15, 2005 7:17:09	Yah I have to agree, Athas having or not having gods is almost a matter of symantics rather than a real issue. I mean the supposed lack of gods hasn't prevented clerics and druids from having essentially the same spell casting and other abilities that their 'God' following counterparts have. And Templars are almost as divinely impowered as the others worldly though god like beings the SKs. The Sks actually have abilities that surpase some of the Demi and Lesser gods' of other worlds' avatars, if not actual selves. It actually puzzles me that anyone would claim that there aren't any gods considering the claims of God and gods in our own world without the same sort of proof that is readily found on Athas. Your average mid to high level cleric or druid can preform miracles in line with those supposedly preformed by real world prophets easily.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 15, 2005 11:09:34	Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain? To drag the thread back on topic, here's how I handled it . In order for something to be more than just a regular old war -- in order for it really to be a "jihad" or "righteous struggle" -- there has to be some cause around which it is oriented. Rajaat is immensely powerful, but the thought of an entire "war" lasting centuries and consisting entirely of him teleporting in solo and wiping out preservers one at a time is ludicrous. So IMC at the time the war started there was a pan-athasian religion based on spurious misinterpretations of ancient halfling myths, and it was to this prejudice that Rajaat appealed to gain broad popular support from members of most of the races (remember, at this time he hadn't given any hint of future genocidal intentions). I tied this into a much larger story on my now-indefinitely-shelved Blue Shrine project.
#13 zombiegleemax Jun 15, 2005 15:30:18	I love evil swords that you cannot live without Would you mind sharing????? My character, a reformed bog standard fighter (trying to forget his shady past... highly specialised in daggers, liked poison, caltrops... etc.) with no magical ability at all was having a very hard time in the plane-travelling environs. Gains, said sword, which starts by making itself useful, saving him and revealing new powers when needed, I only realised it was evil (many sessions later) when landing in holy water somewhere in the Seven Heavens and it began to burn (almost killed me hanging onto it, should have known when LG creatures kept looking at me funny in Sigil). Wanted to throw it away but it was just so damn useful… and great at amputation in a fight.
#14 beyowulf Jun 15, 2005 15:40:05	Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain? Sorceror Kings are gods. Spirits of the Lands are gods. Elemental Lords are gods. Maybe not technically speaking, but they are worshipped as such, so I'd define them as such.
#15 zombiegleemax Jun 15, 2005 16:02:33	Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain? 'Athas has no gods and never will', doesn't mean it never had them :D just never will again. To drag the thread back on topic, here's how I handled it . In order for something to be more than just a regular old war -- in order for it really to be a "jihad" or "righteous struggle" -- there has to be some cause around which it is oriented. Rajaat is immensely powerful, but the thought of an entire "war" lasting centuries and consisting entirely of him teleporting in solo and wiping out preservers one at a time is ludicrous. Regardless of the term ('jihad'), I guess you could regard this as a forerunner of the Cleansing Wars with a singular aim in mind. It does look like Rajaat and his followers were either overwhelming or very sneaky as the Preservers went into hiding. The fact that it took a thousand years suggest the probability of an initial wave of assassinations and then a covert war than a long-term open confrontation. This 'jihad' would have also hardened Rajaat's followers and revealed the most determined and ruthless candidates for his future plans. '134th King's Age (-4,312) -King's Agitation Rajaat begins a jihad against the preservers of Athas for the next thousand years. Preservers across the land go into hiding while fighting a losing battle against the followers of Rajaat.'
#16 ruhl-than_sage Jun 15, 2005 23:56:42	Seriously, what part of "Athas has no Gods and never will" is taking so long to filter down through the chain? I think you missed the point of what I was saying, read my post again. I fully understand that Athas has no Gods and never will. I just don't see a big difference between an entity that has great power and the ability to grant spells to it's followers and a God. I mean, what is a God, that the various Athasian powers are not? The mere location of their home plane?