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Need help with a Rgr2\Clr1\Sor4\Thorn8

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
darthsylver
Jun 13, 2005 7:43:52 I need opinions.

I have a NPC that I am creating to be a arch-enemy for the the party I am DMing for and I want people's opinion on it.

The character is a half-elf who was a Rgr2\Clr1 (Sargonnas) before the Chaos war who performed as a bounty hunter for the Knights of Takhisis. After Sargonnas left she seriously considered staying independent or joining the knights. She decided she would join the kights but as a thorn knight. Rgr2\Clr1 (no powers)\Sor4. She achieved fair status as a thorn knight getting as fair as 8th level knight so she is now a Rgr2\Clr1\Sor4\Thorn8 when Sargonnas returns with the other gods. She has left the knighthood an has returned to the worship of Sargonnas.

What class abilities does she have? Does she retain her Sorceror spells and her reacquired Cleric spells? Or does she have to choose?

In the DLCS it states that you can only have one or the other with regards to Sor & Wiz, and Mys & Clr. It Also states that you can only worship one god. Sor & Mystics do not receive their power from a god and so do not worship them (even if they pay respect to their teachings). Now from what we have seen their is no problem between being a Sor\Mys, but what about a Sor\Clr?
#2
cam_banks
Jun 13, 2005 8:04:41 You can't combine focused (druid, ranger, paladin, cleric, wizard) spellcasting with ambient (mystic, sorcerer, bard, assassin) spellcasting. If you have levels in cleric, for example, you can't also be a sorcerer or bard.

The gods all have different approaches to the issue of mysticism and sorcery. Some aren't worried about it at all, while others actively oppose it. Sargonnas, unfortunately, not only has open contempt for arcane spell users of any stripe (wizard or sorcerer) but his cult is very opposed to mystics, too. Your character's in quite a pickle, to be sure.

One option is that she switches to the magic of the moons and becomes the equivalent of a 12th level wizard. She'd be a renegade (you can't have more than one patron deity, so if she were to align with Nuitari that'd rule out Sargonnas) but hey, who's going to mess with her? She's a Thorn Knight already, they're always renegades.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
darthsylver
Jun 13, 2005 16:35:21 If she did become a renegade Wizard, but she continued to worship Sargonnas what spell ability would she have? Would she have both the 12th levle wiz and 1st level cleric or would she have to choose?
#4
Dragonhelm
Jun 13, 2005 16:44:50
If she did become a renegade Wizard, but she continued to worship Sargonnas what spell ability would she have? Would she have both the 12th levle wiz and 1st level cleric or would she have to choose?

If your character is a renegade wizard, then there's no problem also being a cleric of Sargonnas. It's when your wizard becomes a Black Robe that you have to choose between your deities.

The thing you will want to consider is which order of the Knights of Neraka your character is going to be in. There really aren't wizard-clerics or sorcerer-mystics in the knighthood. If there are, then they have a focus of one over the other. You cannot be both a Skull and a Thorn Knight. Keep that in mind, and determine what your focus is from there.

You might rule that your character focuses on the arcane arts, yet retains clerical ability now that Sargonnas has returned. Of course, Sargonnas may look unfavorably upon any of his followers who aren't fully dedicated to him and who are also members of a knighthood once dedicated to Takhisis.

Or, you may go the epiphany route, and be a sorcerer-mystic.

*shrugs* Just some thoughts.
#5
darthsylver
Jun 13, 2005 20:53:50 Perhaps you missed it in the first post but she left the order after the gods returned, you might say she is a rogue knight that is starting her own independent guild of bounty hunters and such. (Independent of any city or government that is.)

I think I will make her a renegade wizard 12th level caster who is rededicating herself to the clerical studies of Sargonnas by starting her guild of bounty hunters. Who better to be her followers than those pesky exiled elves who feel they have been so discrimiated against throughout their lifetime. (of course most of it was brought on themselves through their own actions).

Now If I decided to go with mystic theurge, would that work?
#6
cam_banks
Jun 14, 2005 0:01:11
Now If I decided to go with mystic theurge, would that work?

Definitely. Appropriate, too, given her background.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
darthsylver
Jun 14, 2005 8:22:15 Sweet!!
#8
brimstone
Jun 14, 2005 10:56:41
You can't combine focused (druid, ranger, paladin, cleric, wizard) spellcasting with ambient (mystic, sorcerer, bard, assassin) spellcasting. If you have levels in cleric, for example, you can't also be a sorcerer or bard.

Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem?

Either way...he's right...Sargonnas isn't a fan of arcane spellcasters of any kind. You could always have an epiphany and become a Rng2/Mys1/Sor4/Thorn8. But...there's no way Sargonnas is going to let her come back to his fold if she keeps using her abilities from the 12 levels of sorcerer.

In other words...even if she has an epiphany the other direction (12 levels of wizard and becomes a renegade) Sargonnas will not grant her clerical powers. Other gods might, but he won't.
#9
cam_banks
Jun 14, 2005 11:01:32
Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem?

You cannot mix the two kinds of magic - ambient or focused - in one individual, even if one of them is divine and the other is arcane.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
Dragonhelm
Jun 14, 2005 11:06:26
Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem?

The idea is that focused and ambient magic are two different types of energy and you can't wield both.

EDIT: What Cam said. :D
#11
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2005 13:39:56 Are there any examples of renegade wizards who are also clerics?
#12
darthsylver
Jun 15, 2005 8:50:07 I have read the descriptions for sargonnas in the DLCS & AoM, Tales of the Lance, Time of the Dragon and have not found anywhere his disdain for spellcasters. I do remember hearing that one of the evil gods in particular did but can't remember where I read it so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darthsylver Jun 13, 2005 7:43:52	I need opinions. I have a NPC that I am creating to be a arch-enemy for the the party I am DMing for and I want people's opinion on it. The character is a half-elf who was a Rgr2\Clr1 (Sargonnas) before the Chaos war who performed as a bounty hunter for the Knights of Takhisis. After Sargonnas left she seriously considered staying independent or joining the knights. She decided she would join the kights but as a thorn knight. Rgr2\Clr1 (no powers)\Sor4. She achieved fair status as a thorn knight getting as fair as 8th level knight so she is now a Rgr2\Clr1\Sor4\Thorn8 when Sargonnas returns with the other gods. She has left the knighthood an has returned to the worship of Sargonnas. What class abilities does she have? Does she retain her Sorceror spells and her reacquired Cleric spells? Or does she have to choose? In the DLCS it states that you can only have one or the other with regards to Sor & Wiz, and Mys & Clr. It Also states that you can only worship one god. Sor & Mystics do not receive their power from a god and so do not worship them (even if they pay respect to their teachings). Now from what we have seen their is no problem between being a Sor\Mys, but what about a Sor\Clr?
#2 cam_banks Jun 13, 2005 8:04:41	You can't combine focused (druid, ranger, paladin, cleric, wizard) spellcasting with ambient (mystic, sorcerer, bard, assassin) spellcasting. If you have levels in cleric, for example, you can't also be a sorcerer or bard. The gods all have different approaches to the issue of mysticism and sorcery. Some aren't worried about it at all, while others actively oppose it. Sargonnas, unfortunately, not only has open contempt for arcane spell users of any stripe (wizard or sorcerer) but his cult is very opposed to mystics, too. Your character's in quite a pickle, to be sure. One option is that she switches to the magic of the moons and becomes the equivalent of a 12th level wizard. She'd be a renegade (you can't have more than one patron deity, so if she were to align with Nuitari that'd rule out Sargonnas) but hey, who's going to mess with her? She's a Thorn Knight already, they're always renegades. Cheers, Cam
#3 darthsylver Jun 13, 2005 16:35:21	If she did become a renegade Wizard, but she continued to worship Sargonnas what spell ability would she have? Would she have both the 12th levle wiz and 1st level cleric or would she have to choose?
#4 Dragonhelm Jun 13, 2005 16:44:50	If she did become a renegade Wizard, but she continued to worship Sargonnas what spell ability would she have? Would she have both the 12th levle wiz and 1st level cleric or would she have to choose? If your character is a renegade wizard, then there's no problem also being a cleric of Sargonnas. It's when your wizard becomes a Black Robe that you have to choose between your deities. The thing you will want to consider is which order of the Knights of Neraka your character is going to be in. There really aren't wizard-clerics or sorcerer-mystics in the knighthood. If there are, then they have a focus of one over the other. You cannot be both a Skull and a Thorn Knight. Keep that in mind, and determine what your focus is from there. You might rule that your character focuses on the arcane arts, yet retains clerical ability now that Sargonnas has returned. Of course, Sargonnas may look unfavorably upon any of his followers who aren't fully dedicated to him and who are also members of a knighthood once dedicated to Takhisis. Or, you may go the epiphany route, and be a sorcerer-mystic. shrugs Just some thoughts.
#5 darthsylver Jun 13, 2005 20:53:50	Perhaps you missed it in the first post but she left the order after the gods returned, you might say she is a rogue knight that is starting her own independent guild of bounty hunters and such. (Independent of any city or government that is.) I think I will make her a renegade wizard 12th level caster who is rededicating herself to the clerical studies of Sargonnas by starting her guild of bounty hunters. Who better to be her followers than those pesky exiled elves who feel they have been so discrimiated against throughout their lifetime. (of course most of it was brought on themselves through their own actions). Now If I decided to go with mystic theurge, would that work?
#6 cam_banks Jun 14, 2005 0:01:11	Now If I decided to go with mystic theurge, would that work? Definitely. Appropriate, too, given her background. Cheers, Cam
#7 darthsylver Jun 14, 2005 8:22:15	Sweet!!
#8 brimstone Jun 14, 2005 10:56:41	You can't combine focused (druid, ranger, paladin, cleric, wizard) spellcasting with ambient (mystic, sorcerer, bard, assassin) spellcasting. If you have levels in cleric, for example, you can't also be a sorcerer or bard. Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem? Either way...he's right...Sargonnas isn't a fan of arcane spellcasters of any kind. You could always have an epiphany and become a Rng2/Mys1/Sor4/Thorn8. But...there's no way Sargonnas is going to let her come back to his fold if she keeps using her abilities from the 12 levels of sorcerer. In other words...even if she has an epiphany the other direction (12 levels of wizard and becomes a renegade) Sargonnas will not grant her clerical powers. Other gods might, but he won't.
#9 cam_banks Jun 14, 2005 11:01:32	Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem? You cannot mix the two kinds of magic - ambient or focused - in one individual, even if one of them is divine and the other is arcane. Cheers, Cam
#10 Dragonhelm Jun 14, 2005 11:06:26	Why? What's wrong with that? It's one thing to have cleric/mystic levels or wizard/sorcerer levels...but what's the difference between being a cleric/wizard or a cleric/sorcerer? So long as you don't have more than one patron deity, where's the problem? The idea is that focused and ambient magic are two different types of energy and you can't wield both. EDIT: What Cam said. :D
#11 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2005 13:39:56	Are there any examples of renegade wizards who are also clerics?
#12 darthsylver Jun 15, 2005 8:50:07	I have read the descriptions for sargonnas in the DLCS & AoM, Tales of the Lance, Time of the Dragon and have not found anywhere his disdain for spellcasters. I do remember hearing that one of the evil gods in particular did but can't remember where I read it so.