Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hugin Jun 13, 2005 20:40:52	Please forgive me because I'd bet this has been clarified in the past. However... This is a really simple question that has been bothering me for a long time. In the Dawn of the Emperors set the player's guides each have a cover with a national symbol (or somesuch) on it, yet on the pages inside they have the silouette of the other symbol tinted in the background. So the question is, Which symbol is for which empire? For some reason I can envision either symbol belonging to either empire.
#2 thorf Jun 13, 2005 21:55:04	I also noticed this many years ago, and always wondered about it. I think the eagle is clearly the symbol of Thyatis, and the sphinx is Alphatia's symbol. And yet they are swapped round on the inside pages of the player's guides... Bizarre. The best I can think is that they did it either by accident, or deliberately, aiming for some sort of effect - subconsciously tieing the Empires together? Either way, it was a strange and I think somewhat inadvisable thing to do. Too confusing.
#3 Traianus_Decius_Aureus Jun 14, 2005 8:09:52	Easy explaination: sloppy editing. Even the more recent books have editing issues, and that is with software much, much more user-friendly.
#4 spellweaver Jun 14, 2005 9:09:40	On a sidenote, "Vengeance of Alphaks" page 5 says that the family symbol of Emperor Thincol of Thyatis and his family is "a bright red symbol", but does not go into detail what it looks like? :-) Jesper
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2005 9:19:04	I've always thought the reversal was a mistake myself, and the Sphinx definitely a symbol of Alphatia, the eagle a symbol of Thyatis. As to the family symbol of Thincol, in several modules it was listed as being a kingfisher (IIRC, I'm at work, so can't reference it at the moment). I know it was referenced in a couple of the X, C, and M modules, but that was also when the empire was listed as being "only 100 years old" or thereabouts.
#6 havard Jun 14, 2005 9:25:03	I've always thought the reversal was a mistake myself, and the Sphinx definitely a symbol of Alphatia, the eagle a symbol of Thyatis. As to the family symbol of Thincol, in several modules it was listed as being a kingfisher (IIRC, I'm at work, so can't reference it at the moment). I know it was referenced in a couple of the X, C, and M modules, but that was also when the empire was listed as being "only 100 years old" or thereabouts. So his symbol would be a bright red version of this one?
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2005 13:17:36	... In the Dawn of the Emperors set the player's guides each have a cover with a national symbol (or somesuch) on it, yet on the pages inside they have the silouette of the other symbol tinted in the background... Maybe they were switched together with the Royal children... ;)
#8 spellweaver Jun 14, 2005 18:10:37	So his symbol would be a bright red version of this one? That is correct. In "Saga of the Shadowlord" and "Crown of Ancient Glory" the fighter Renia carries a Kingfisher medalion - the only memory of her parents because she is an orphan. Kavien, the thief in the prerolled party, knows that the Kingfisher is the insignia of the family of the emperor of Thyatis and suspects that she must be of that lineage. :-) Jesper
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 15, 2005 9:41:54	If I may add my two cents... The kingfisher is probably either Thincol OR the previous emperor's (Gabrionus? much more likely) symbol, but this doesn't mean that THyatis' crest changes with each different emperor. The symbol of the nation of Thyatis is a blue eagle as shown on the background of Alphatia's booklet (I believe they traded the symbols together with the heirs, as Lost Wooddrake suggested ;) :D :P ). I am a bit more perplexed by Alphatia's symbol being a Lammasu (that creature on the background of Thyatis' booklet, which is derived by the two sculptures which in RW stood at the gates of Babylon): there are no "Middle East" traits in Alphatia, so it's not that appropriate. Anyway, lacking any other reference, we may take this as the correct one.
#10 spellweaver Jun 15, 2005 10:14:21	Thought I'd add this for perspective: On the inside cover of the module Red Arrow, Black Shield (why is it called that by the way?? ) there is an army roster with the symbols of the various nations as follows: Master's Legion of Doom: A pair of crossed scythes Master's armies: A shield in front of a scythe Darokin: A pair of crossed spears Glantri: An hourglass Atruaghin Clans: A lion standing on its rear two paws (much like the later symbol of the Heldannic Knights if I am not wrong? ) Five Shires: A bushel of grain Alfheim: A tree of Life Rockhome: A hammer Karameikos: The silouette of a tower Ierendi: The silouette of a ship with oars and sails Minrothad guilds: A pair of scales Ylaruam: A scorpion (should be a scimitar or something IMO :D ) Ostland, Vestland and Soderfjord: A horned helmet Ethengar: The silouette of a horse's head And finally: Thyatis: A Germanic eagle looking up and to the left with spread wings and spread claws but not grasping anything in its claws... So, while still an eagle, it is fairly different from the one on the cover of the Player's guide to Thyatis and would, IMHO, be better suited to the Black Eagle. (His has two heads though, and holds a sword in each claw). :-) Jesper
#11 agathokles Jun 15, 2005 11:37:46	If I may add my two cents... The kingfisher is probably either Thincol OR the previous emperor's (Gabrionus? much more likely) symbol, but this doesn't mean that THyatis' crest changes with each different emperor. It should be Thincol's symbol, as in X11 the Emperor is already Thincol. I am a bit more perplexed by Alphatia's symbol being a Lammasu (that creature on the background of Thyatis' booklet, which is derived by the two sculptures which in RW stood at the gates of Babylon): there are no "Middle East" traits in Alphatia, so it's not that appropriate. Anyway, lacking any other reference, we may take this as the correct one. Well, Alphatia is full of middle-eastern (or at least eastern) references, including the names of several Alphatians from VotPA, such as Ramissur Zumrulim, Raman Nabonidus and Talasar Ecbashur.
#12 Hugin Jun 17, 2005 22:38:48	Thanks for all the comments guys! Interesting stuff! But I have to admit, Maybe they were switched together with the Royal children... is *the* best answer! :D
#13 npc_dave Jun 18, 2005 12:25:30	The swapping of the symbols in the players guides was an accident, I heard this before from either Bruce Heard or someone else on the MML years ago.
#14 Hugin Jun 18, 2005 14:09:32	The swapping of the symbols in the players guides was an accident, I heard this before from either Bruce Heard or someone else on the MML years ago. I didn't think it was intentional. What would be the reason for it. You don't happen to recall which one was "offically" belonging to which empire, do you?
#15 npc_dave Jun 18, 2005 18:18:44	I didn't think it was intentional. What would be the reason for it. You don't happen to recall which one was "offically" belonging to which empire, do you? The covers are correct.
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2005 18:52:49	Just for the record, the K:KoA Explorer's Guide (p. 111) is probably the most reliable source for national coats of arms (at least in the KW). For those that don't have access to this book, I will give a brief description of each. I will describe them in laymen's terms right now, but I hopefully will post their Blazons (traditional format) eventually. Alfheim: Green shield, White oak tree (roots exposed) Atruaghin: White shield, Orange wolf's head Broken Lands: Red shield, Yellow horned helm above Yellow dagger with curvy blade Darokin: Black shield, Yellow disc with a yellow circle around it Ethengar: Green shield, Yellow horse's head Five Shires: Orange shield, five Yellow stocks of wheat Glantri: this one's a bit vague, but I would say Red shield, pattern of small Yellow hourglasses Heldann: White shield, black Lion Ierendi: White (top) & Blue (bottom) shield, Purple sea-serpent across division Karameikos: White Shield, Blue ship above sword (White blade, Yellow handle) on a small Blue chevron Minrothad: White (top) Blue (bottom) shield, Black (maybe Purple) scale between 5 six-point stars (3 left, 2 right) Mystara: White shield, Red Dragon Ostland: Yellow shield, Red boar's head Rockhome: Red shield, White eagle (possibly falcon) above White crossed hammers (mauls) Sind: Yellow shield, Black tower Soderfjord: checkerboard pattern of Purple and White Thyatis: Purple shield, White eagle Vestland: Black shield, Green sealion (head of a lion, body of a sea-monster) Wendar: Green shield, white Pine Tree Ylaruam: Red (top 1/2) & Yellow (bottom 1/2) shield, White crescent moon in Top part There are other coats of arms for individual families, domains, and organizations elsewhere in the same book as well as the back cover of G:KoM, The Grimoire. Also, I know that one of the Red Steel or Savage Coast/Baronies products had lots of coats of arms including an alternate one for Sind. I only have a tiny .gif of that sheet, so I can't really make out most of it. See my thread on new heraldry style for a more comprehensive approach to Mystaran heraldry... -Damon