if they dont.-I plan on making my own D&D stats
from dl3e.com-is this close-dont i dont own the epic handbook or dlcs but want to use him in my campaign!
Male Civilized Human Wiz 5 / Wizard of High Sorcery 4 / Loremaster 6 / Archmage 5
Strength 9 (-1) Fortitude +25* Armor Class 37*
Dexterity 16 (+3) Reflex +18* Flat-footed AC 37*
Constitution 8 (-1) Will +23* Touch AC 6*
Intelligence 28 (+9) Alignment NE Base Attack +9
Wisdom 14 (+2) Speed 30 ft. Melee Attack +8
Charisma 16 (+3) Initiative +3 Ranged Attack +12
Hit Points 31 Size Medium
Special:
Archmage Abilities: Mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power +3.
Enhanced Ability Scores: The Master of Past and Present template gives Raistlin a +2 bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. He has also used wish spells to add a +3 inherent bonus to his Intelligence score.
Loremaster Abilities: Bonus language (Istarian), greater lore, lore +15 (+17 synergy bonus), secrets (applicable knowledge, instant mastery, more newfound arcana).
Master of Past and Present: Raistlin is immune to mind-affecting effects, as well as effects that manipulate metabolism or time (such as slow, temporal stasis, or time stop).
Wizard of High Sorcery Abilities: Arcane research +2, item of power, moon magic, order secret (Magic of Hunger), tower resources.
Skills:
Appraise +8 (+10 alchemical items), Bluff +12, Concentration +15, Craft (alchemy) +32, Decipher Script +19 (+21 scrolls), Diplomacy +7, Disguise +3 (+5 in character), Gather Information +7, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (arcana) +37, Knowledge (geography) +18, Knowledge (history) +25, Knowledge (Palanthas) +11, Knowledge (planes) +18, Knowledge (religion) +13, Open Lock +4, Profession (herbalist) +7, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +10, Speak Language (Draconic, Dwarven, Ergothian, Nestari), Spellcraft +39 (+41 scrolls), Use Magic Device +7 (+11 scrolls).
Feats:
Brew Potion, Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Knowledge - arcana), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (illusion), Spellcasting Prodigy.
Languages
Abanasinian, Camptalk, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Ergothian, Istarian, Magius, Nestari, Solamnic.
Spells
Wizard Spells per Day: 4/7/8/6/6/5/4/4/4/5; save DC 20 + spell level, 21 + spell level for evocation and illusion spells. Caster level 23rd.
Spellbook: Raistlin has access to all arcane spells listed in the Player's Handbook, Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and Age of Mortals supplement, with the exception of Magius's Light of Truth. Raistlin has access to many unique spells as well (most of which were created by Fistandantilus or himself).
Weapons:
Dagger of Magius (+11/+6 melee or +15 ranged, 1d4+2/19-20), staff of Magius (+10/+5 melee, 1d6+1).
Possessions (as NPC):
Dagger of Magius, orb of dragonkind (green), robe of the archmagi (black), staff of Magius, spell component pouch, tindertwigs (3).
Description:
5'9", 135 lbs., silver hair, golden eyes, 29 years old. Raistlin was born on Corij 17th of 326 AC by the Ergothian calendar (6/17/326).
Background:
Raistlin Majere is close to achieving that which he (and Fistandantilus) has sought for years: true power. He retains absolute control of the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthas, and is the Master of Past and Present. His unceasing quest for power has thoroughly consumed him at this point, and Raistlin's current plot will chill the Wizards of High Sorcery to the bone.
Notes:
As the Master of the Tower of Palanthas, Raistlin has access to a vast amount of magical items and wealth if necessary.
Raistlin's AC and Saves have been modified by the orb of dragonkind (see the Dungeon Master's Guide for more information). Without the orb of dragonkind, he has the following statistics in place of those above: AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 19; SV Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +23.
Wisdom should also be higher...this is a person who later on (after said height of power) helped the gods to find their wayward planet. The wisdom and intelligence to do that when they couldn't tells me that the score should be a bit more than "14". Just a thought anyway.
I might be wrong (which wouldn't be the first time) because I don't have the information right here in front of me...but isn't Sleight of Hand a rogue only skill?
I also agree with Treymordin, why would the Loremaster levels be there?
At this point he was physically stronger (not anything more than average I would think) and he didn't seem to cough as much but it still happened after he left that time.
I do agree with thrune that raistlin was probably a little higher than 20th due to Fistandantilus, but I would probaly put him between 21st - 23rd. When he beat Fisty it was just barely. I mean raistlin did not wipe the floor with Fisty so he could not have been that much higher, in fact he might have been lower and fisty just underestimated how sly raistlin could be.
We all also know of fisty's disdain for magical items (crutches) where as Raistlin was willing to use just about anything he could to gain power. All players know that magic items can give a character a supreme advantage if used properly.
I mean hell if Raistlin had Tol's Null-stone he would have just walked up to fisty and stabbed his happy butt. :D :D :D
in fact he might have been lower and fisty just underestimated how sly raistlin could be.
I would agree with this. It was stated in the books also that Fisty had a bit of a superiority complex anyway. I think that there would have been a sever underestimation in the start of the fight that would have given Raist at least one or two really good hits in before the fight evened out into the major magic duel that it was said to be.
My only question is why do people see raistlin as using all these magical items. In the books I remember him using the Staff of Magius (never to it's full potential I believe) and the dagger's little wrist mount. I don't recall him being that big into using items as freely as other posts make it look. Wasn't it dalamaar that pointed out to Palin (I think or Tanis - darn this feeble memory) that raistlin considered such free use of magical items to be beneath him...that true power should come from within? I don't know I might be wrong.
At what point is Raistlin at the height of his power? Just after defeating Fisty? Blowing up Zhaman Keep? Entering the Portal? After fighting all the baddies in the Portal?
Because I agree that he would be just above Fisty if it was at the point after defeating him, but if his skills increased even more so after that, like after fighting in the Abyss, you could probably argue 27th-28th level. It could look like this:
Wizard 8/WoHS 10/War Mage 2/ Archmage 7
Now that's just off the top of my head, without the books in front of me so be kind.
I am, however, fascinated with Raistlin Majere and his rise to power.
Any help would be appreciated.
Could someone please tell me which novels best chronicle Raistlin's exploits?
Your best bets are going to the Chronicles Trilogy and the Legends Trilogy. The legends Trilogy is where the more powerful Raistlin would (the one that we are discussing in this post)
Meetings sextet (mainly Dark Heart - Describes the birth of the twins and their early childhood, and The Companions - Raistlin shortly after the Test)
The Soulforge - Raistlin's years in the Magic academy and the test at the tower.
Brothers in Arms - The time Raistlin & Caramon signed up with mercenaries shortly after the test. (Also details Kit a little).
Brothers Majere - The tale of Raistlin & Caramon in the city of Mereklar
Chronicles Series - Raistlin & Caramon during the war of the lance.
Legends Series - Raistlin & Caramon after the War of the Lance (Kit comes into play here near the end)
The Second Generation - During Palin's (Raistlin's nephew) test at the tower of Palanthas, Palin encounters his famous uncle (whether it is really him or not nobody knows)
Dragons of Summer Flame - Raistlin's Infamous return from the Abyss (completely powerless though)
The War of Souls Series - Raistlin plays a small but pivotal part and even shows how he is respected by the gods of magic.
There are a couple short stories with Raisltin involved but I cannot recall them all, that are in the Tales series. The most famous of course being "Raistlin's Daughter" in which Raisltin gets down & dirty with an irda.
This was a half-(something) experiment to see what Raistlin could potentially look like. These stats represent Raistlin right before the Legends trilogy. I might as well insert the disclaimer that neither ToHS nor WotL were out at this time (no Fisty stats to compare, no Dragonorb, etc).While I'm at it, I'll briefly tackle some of the questions:
Loremaster: Raistlin acquired and hoarded knowledge. The loremaster doesn't have to be a seeker of knowledge "for its own sake", so I thought it was appropriate. More appropriate than giving him 10 levels of WoHS, at any rate.
Level: See above, this was before "Raistlindantilus".
Concentration: This was partly a skill-point thing - too many skills, too few skill points - but there were quite a few times where he barely summoned the willpower needed for a given situation, or to cast that important spell. That didn't scream "maxed ranks" to me.
Str/Con/Wis: Mostly based off earlier stats. As far as "godly Wisdom", he certainly didn't realize that his efforts at godhood would upset a primal force of creation (the Balance). He had enough Wisdom to realize his mistake when it was waved in front of him. And if you knew Tas and your world vanished, would it take you 38 years to wonder where the little guy went?
Levelwise, Raistlin shouldn't be past 18. Second Edition players can back me up on this. The gods of Krynn are much more meddlesome than those of other worlds. Heroes that reach a certain level of power are removed to keep the balance. Now, there are many ways to increase Raistlin's powers without just giving him levels. A template for Master of Past and Present is one idea, although I don't agree on how it is displayed here. The source of Raistlin's greatness was never blatant power, it was always in applying the minimal force in the right place to achieve desirable results. This is shown in his mentality, he never displayed his true power, always keeping something back. Quite simply, stop trying to pour levels on the guy, he doesn't need them. Even Palin only had 19 levels, and in terms of raw magical talent, he held the better hand.
That was only ever applied in 1ed. It was retconned for 2ed and has remained gone for 3.0/3.5. And even in 1ed Raistlin went beyond the 18th level restriction, check Dragonlance Adventures.
And no, I am not a power gamer nut. I don't like Raistlin at all, but I he does deserve correct stats. Comparing with Fisty's current stats well before PC0, when Raistlin enters the Abyss, he should probably at 25th/26th levels.
Maybe (CE male human wizard 10/black robe 10/war wizard 4/archmage 5).
Remember, he has to be high enough to pierce Takhisis's spell resistance at least on a roll of 20 (assuming Takhisis has a Divine Rank of 16 and hasn't taken the Increased Spell Resistance Salient Divine Ability).
(assuming Takhisis has a Divine Rank of 16 and hasn't taken the Increased Spell Resistance Salient Divine Ability).
Assuming Takhisis has stats, which she doesn't.
Cheers,
Cam
The fact that Raistlin expoited and then challenged Takhisis tells me that she is a creature worthy of game statistics. I mean, certainly, most Dragonlance games never will, and shouldn't, go so far as to be a deicidal power-fest-- but, it was appropriate to Legends and could prove appropriate again to Dragonlance DMs interested in running a similarly epic and fantastical campaign.
HP = -10. :D :D :D
And there were stats for the gods in DLA, they just need to be converted, should the DM wish to use those of course. Or the DM could simply make up their own stats. With either fair stats or with insanely powerful stats. Just because there is a deities book out, does not mean that the DM must use those rules.
Actually Takky does has stats.
HP = -10. :D :D :D
For a moment, I thought you were scribbling an algebraic formula that would instantly prove both what Takhisis' stats were and the number of coffee grounds in a filter when x is the size of the filter. I thought you were gonna bust some quadratic expressions all over my a55.
All better now.
You give me too much credit Rooks. To think that I, the mighty darthsylver, could actually make sense out of algebra. I am ppowerful, but not that powerful. :D :D
Only the wicked are, my friend. Only the wicked.
This would give a rough estimate of how high of a caster level Takhisis would have had, giving a guess at how powerful raistlin would have needed to be to challenge her.
I wonder if you could reverse engineer some diety stats using the epic magic rules.
You could, potentially, but at that point it's an exercise in futility. One of the design intents behind 3.5 Dragonlance at the moment is that certain things just do not scale into game rules and remain story elements - there are many things the gods do which are essentially the Dungeon Master saying "this happens". Plot devices and DM fiat are actually the basis for many of the things that have happened and while it's possible you could reverse engineer some things ("Raistlin must have been X level to do Y!") you're relying then on getting some kind of near-accurate ballpark for something no player characters can actually hope of repeating.
Cheers,
Cam
Plot devices and DM fiat are actually the basis for many of the things that have happened and while it's possible you could reverse engineer some things ("Raistlin must have been X level to do Y!") you're relying then on getting some kind of near-accurate ballpark for something no player characters can actually hope of repeating.
While I enjoy, even relish, that a great deal of the Dragonlance campaign setting is based around the 'distant castle on a hill' philosophy it is a pity that sometimes this Romantic mood comes at the cost of well-balanced story-oriented gameplay. It seems that too many times DL DMs put storytelling ahead of storyplaying. Plot devices are wondeful, but when it limits the possibilities of a good game/story then I think it might have gone a bit too far.
I mean, I don't think any player wants to hear their DM say that what the Heroes of the Lance or Raistlin in Legends did is 'something no player characters can actually hope of repeating.' I would rather engineer deity or epic level spell statistics than make an arbitrary judgement that something only works as a plot device, but not if a player wants to repeat the action or aspires to similarly legendary ones. That's a real pity.
As we have seen evidence of novel characters challenging gods or performing similarly epic feats, I think it is only reasonable that responsible DMs take the time to make that possible for the player characters of their group. Not for the sake of powergaming, but for the sake of good story-oriented gaming.
He definately had sleight of hand. In 3.5, I don't think it's exclusive.
well after making this thread and the tips on here im going to make him and post him monday on here. i will make him l20 (dont own epic, will never buy it) with tome & blood + core rules
You'll see his stats in the Legends of the Twins sourcebook, due out later this year. You won't see any rules from books like Tome & Blood (which is a 3.0 sourcebook) or indeed any of the Complete series, but I'm fairly sure they'll work.
Cheers,
Cam
but the world is just to detailed and fleshed out for my tastes
for example
when you play a dlcs/fr campaign you have to play in the history of dl/fr- you cant make up your own wars and things
in a homemade you choose what happens!
i guess im just anti-campaign setting
when you play a dlcs/fr campaign you have to play in the history of dl/fr- you cant make up your own wars and things
My understanding is that Legend of the Twins (once it's released) will have ideas for alternate histories on Krynn - guidelines for playing all sorts of "What If" games. Make up your own wars to your heart's content!
(Not that you need that sourcebook to do that sort of thing, but it will be specifically addressed therein, if my understanding is correct.)
would be that he is at least 22-24th level.In the 2ed Heroes of the Lance (or whatever it was called, can't quite remember...and where is my hat...) boxed set, I do believe each and every god had stats, which leads me to think that each and every one could theoretically be converted to 3ed.
Those 2nd edition AD&D stats were provided for the avatars of the gods, not the gods themselves. Dragonlance gods don't have stats.
Cheers,
Cam
(ps : it is not my own creation but i forgot where did i found that
)Raistlin Majere
Wizard-17, Black Robe-1, Loremaster-5, Archmage-3
The Master of Past and Present
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 17d4+1d4+5d4+3d4-26 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+3 Dex, +5 armor, +3 deflection), touch 16, flat-footed 18.
Base Att/Grapple: +12/+11
Attack: Staff of Magius +13 melee (1d6+1/x3) or Dagger of Magius +14 melee (1d4+2/19-20); or spell +11 melee touch or +15 ranged touch.
Full Attack: Staff of Magius +13/+8 melee (1d6+1/x3) or Dagger of Magius +14/+9 melee (1d4+2/19-20); or by spell.
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power, spells.
Special Qualities: Arcane research +1, fire immunity, lore, master of past and present, moon magic, secrets, spell resistance 18.
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +24
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 8, Int 26, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: Appraise +8 (+10 alchemy), Bluff +9, Concentration +21, Craft (alchemy) +27, Decipher Script +19 (+21 scrolls), Disguise +3 (+5 acting), Gather Information +7, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (arcana) +40, Knowledge (geography) +18, Knowledge (history) +27, Knowledge (Palanthas local) +12, Knowledge (religion) +20, Knowledge (the planes) +18, Open Lock +4, Perform (comedy) +4, Profession (herbalist) +13, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +10, Speak Language (Draconic, Dwarven, Ergrothian, Nestari), Spellcraft +40 (+42 scrolls), Use Magic Device +12 (+16 scrolls)
Feats: Brew Potion, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Knowledge [arcana]), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Spellcasting Prodigy, Silent Spell, Still Spell.
Epic Feats: Automatic Silent Spell, Epic Spellcasting.
Environment: Any land or underground
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 22
Treasure: Staff of Magius, Dagger of Magius, Black Robes of the Archmagi.
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: --
Level Adjustment: --
- Raistlin can speak Abanasinian, Camptalk, Common, Draconic, Dwaren, Elven, Ergothian, Istarian, Magius, Nestari, and Solamnic.
- Shattered Health: Raistlin's Constitution score will drop to 6 (26 hp) if he goes for more than one day without imbibing a special herbal drink. This requires a Profession (herbalist) check (DC 10) to create.
- Temporal Sight: Raistlin's hourglass eyes can see time as it affects all things. He can see through magical disguises as a true seeing spell, but unless the person he looks at is immortal (such as a deity) or has an extremly long lifespan (such as an elf), he sees them rotting away. Whenever a non-immortal (or non-elf) character attempts to make a Charisma-based check against Raistlin, they suffer a -8 circumstance penalty.
- Mastery of Counterspelling: When Raistlin counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled.
- Mastery of Elements: Raistlin can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell's casting time is unaffected. Raistlin decides whether to alter the spell's energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting.
- Master of Past and Present: Raistlin has recieved a +2 inherent bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. He is unaffected by spells that manipulate metabolism or time (slow, temporal stasis, time stop, etc).
- Spell Power: This ability increases Raistlin's effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only).
- Secrets: Raistlin has learned applicable knowledge (quicken spell), bonus language (Istarian), instant mastery (gather information), more newfound arcana (bonus 2nd level spell).
- Spells: As a 27th-level wizard.
Wizard Spells/Day: 4/7/7/6/6/6/5/4/4/5; base DC = 19 + spell level.
Possessions:
- Staff of Magius: This +2 quarterstaff provides a +3 deflection bonus to the person who carries it. Once per day it can cast feather fall (on the bearer only) and daylight (upon the staff only) by command. The bearer of the staff can dismiss the daylight with another command word.
- The bearer of the Staff of Magius can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the Enlarge Spell feat. These spells must be of the following type: spells that create light, spells that manipulate air, or spells that affect minds.
- The staff bestows one negative level on any creature that touches it that isn't an arcane spellcaster. The negative level remains as long as the staff is held or carried and disappears when it is no longer held or carried. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the staff is held or carried.
- Caster Level: 17th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, daylight, feather fall, creator must be 6th level; Market Price: 77,300 gp; Cost to Create: 38,800 gp + 3,080 XP.
- Dagger of Magius: This +3 dagger is made of magically hardened silver. It also has the property that it cannot be detected by magical or mundane searches when carried by a mage.
- Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, invisibility, nondetection, creator must be 9th level; Market Price: 28,302 gp; Cost to Create: 14,302 gp + 1,120 XP.
I think he would have been a Rogue 1/ Sorcerer 5/ Wizard 5/ Wizard of High Sorcery 10/ Archmage 5.
He definately had sleight of hand. In 3.5, I don't think it's exclusive.
Where did the sorcerer come from??? Sorcerers didn't exist when he was alive.
Also the stats provided above should have CR 26..
Do you think Raistli could take on Nuitari?
Now that is an interesting question. Here is a question to answer that one. Did Nuitari aid Raistlin with his whole quest for godhood? I mean, there was no sorcery at the time, so Raistlin's magic must have come from the arcane gods, right?
If the answer is yes, then no, he couldn't have beat Nuitari. If the answer is no, then where did the power come from?
Now that is an interesting question. Here is a question to answer that one. Did Nuitari aid Raistlin with his whole quest for godhood? I mean, there was no sorcery at the time, so Raistlin's magic must have come from the arcane gods, right?
If the answer is yes, then no, he couldn't have beat Nuitari. If the answer is no, then where did the power come from?
The Whole reason why Raisltin could challenge the Takhisis was that he learned how the abyss works. The secret of planes was the same thing Fistandaltilus was after, and the way I see it, is that be retrieving this knowlegde Raistlin was able to free himself from the limitations of the world, from the path of energy that normally governs existence. In short begin to draw power from creation itself.
The Whole reason why Raisltin could challenge the Takhisis was that he learned how the abyss works. The secret of planes was the same thing Fistandaltilus was after, and the way I see it, is that be retrieving this knowlegde Raistlin was able to free himself from the limitations of the world, from the path of energy that normally governs existence. In short begin to draw power from creation itself.
in other words he transcended like a Super Sayan or something. And he could have taken on Nuitari to be the God of the Black Robes, instead he got too selfish and wanted to defeat Thakisis instead.
Doubtful it will be. SP needs to get their releases that were scheduled ahead of that out first. Latest I heard was HoOTS will be at GenCon and Legends will be closer to the end of the year.
I think their product page for Legends says it will be out in October. I guess all we can do is cross our fingers on this one.
The Master of Past and Present template has been mentioned several times in this thread, but i'm pretty sure I haven't seen Master of the Tower or Soulforge anywhere (forgive me if its there somewhere).
Raistlin has a set of starting stats (Lvl 6, i believe) in the War of the Lance sourcebook. Building from there should give you a good starting point.
Now that is an interesting question. Here is a question to answer that one. Did Nuitari aid Raistlin with his whole quest for godhood? I mean, there was no sorcery at the time, so Raistlin's magic must have come from the arcane gods, right?
If the answer is yes, then no, he couldn't have beat Nuitari. If the answer is no, then where did the power come from?
In Legends, didn't Raistlin mention something about the star moving from their orbits, the Elements doing his bidding and such. I have always wondered if Raistlin figured out (from Fistandantilus) how to use Sorcery.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Sorcery was actaully non existant during Legends and such. I beleive the WoHS abolished its use way back when and very few people even knew about it, let alone could use it. I thought Sorcery had something to do with Chaos and his releasing "chaotic" energies over Krynn (could be mistaken here, though). I mean the only reason Sorcery was "discovered" again was because the gods of magic were gone. They don't want Sorcery around because it weakens their power base.
But I think (and this is just me in my games if it ever comes up) that knowledge of how to harness sorcery shouldn't stop prior to the Chaos war. What I mean is, if I have a sorcerer that travels back to 84 AC, he wouldn't lose his powers just because Chaos hasn't been released yet, because he knows how to manipulate the elements to do his bidding.
And since Gen Con is rapidly approaching now, Legends will not be there. Holy Orders isn't out yet, but is supposed to premier there, so give Legends a couple months maybe.
I agree about the Master of the Tower template, along with a template for Master of Past/present, but the Soulforge is already covered in the Towers sourcebook and doesn't grant anything like a template, just a better reward, and it is considered in his stats-the Staff and Dagger of Magius!
Think of it like knowing how to create a power circuit for electricity but not actually have a power base, you can create the circuit but without the power you ain't getting nowhere.
Yes, sorcery has existed since Krynn's creation, it was just kinda phased out by High Sorcery and knowledge faded into extinction, but with the release of Chaos, it was found again (thanks to Takhisis).
But I think (and this is just me in my games if it ever comes up) that knowledge of how to harness sorcery shouldn't stop prior to the Chaos war. What I mean is, if I have a sorcerer that travels back to 84 AC, he wouldn't lose his powers just because Chaos hasn't been released yet, because he knows how to manipulate the elements to do his bidding.
I know the official view, but we are allowed to take our own, that's why I said "this is just me in my games"
Nuitari's Avatar
25th level Mage
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Str 15
Dex 20
Con 20
Int 24
Wis 16
Cha 21
Avatar Descriptions
Nuitari favors the form of a quiet, intense young man with jet-black hair and a long black robe. He also may appear as a wicked child
Raistlin Majere
7wizard/7Black robe/4Warmage( yes he did practice warmagic during his merc days)4archmage
He is a generalist wizard( as per the option rule ) and has a spell focus of necromancy.
From Time of the Twins "His soul burns with ambition, the desire for power, the desire for more knowledge. I knew that nothing, not even the fear of death itself, would stop him from attaining his goals." [paperback pg. 159, bottom of page]
Treymordin, I don't know if this counts as evidence, but it seems likely to me, that he had at least a couple of levels of loremaster. :D
Treymordin, I don't know if this counts as evidence, but it seems likely to me, that he had at least a couple of levels of loremaster. :D
I would say that's a pretty accurate guess.
Cheers,
Cam
IMO Raistlin matched his level while he was in Istar and doubt he went beyond the 27th level. Here's my version of Raistlin:
Wizard 5th/WohS 10th/Lore Master 5th/Archmage 2nd/War Mage 5th
At this time he defeated the gods. So he should be at least something like a demigod at this moment.
Immediately after the war of the lance he reached level 20. After that he prepared for his journey to Istar, studied Fists Spellbooks, and so gained more power... (he should be epic after the war of the lance, because he marked Dalamar and not even a wish could cure that wound...).
I think he should be nearly equal to Fist as he met him in Istar. That makes him about level 21 - 23. The Spellbattle seemed to have equivalent opponents.
After devouring Fistandantilus and gaining all his knowledge he should quickly
reaching maybe level 25 - 27 and at that then entered the Abyss.
During overcomming all the dangers of the Abyss he should have reached a
level beyond 30.
From the DMG "Loremasters are spellcasters who concentrate on knowledge, valuing lore and secrets over gold. They uncover secrets that they then use to better themselves mentally, physcially, and spiritually." pg. 191
From Time of the Twins "His soul burns with ambition, the desire for power, the desire for more knowledge. I knew that nothing, not even the fear of death itself, would stop him from attaining his goals." [paperback pg. 159, bottom of page]
Treymordin, I don't know if this counts as evidence, but it seems likely to me, that he had at least a couple of levels of loremaster. :D
That's kinda like saying someone has levels of cleric because they've prayed in a temple. Lots of people desire knowledge, not all of them become loremasters.
Like I said, my opinion. all is moot until SP releases Legend of the Twins to us.
[I think he will have levels of Loremaster, probably not more than 5 tho]
I've nothing against Raistlin having levels of loremaster per se, but it's hardly necessary. Just as Leaflong said, SP will determine his stats.
With 5 levels of Loremaster, he would have 3 secrets (Instant Mastery, Applicable Knowledge, and Newfound Arcana.) He would have Lore, allowing him to add his Int to knowledge checks, and he would have a bonus language.
Granted, this PrC isn't necessary, but it does help flesh him out!
With 5 levels of Loremaster, he would have 3 secrets (Instant Mastery, Applicable Knowledge, and Newfound Arcana.) He would have Lore, allowing him to add his Int to knowledge checks, and he would have a bonus language.
Which is what I did in the Nexus writeup that rbrt_spade listed on page 1 but in that case, I decided on Istarian as the bonus language.
And just so everyone knows, that Master of Past & Present template was just a way to add a little extra to someone that had very few hit points.
I personally doubt such a template will exist.I hope that the authors give credit to Raistlin where credit is due. Of the countless fantasy novels I have read, covering multiple worlds/campaign settings, there aren't too many characters that rival what he was able to accomplish. Raistlin should have incredible power to survive everything he went through with the handicap of his physical fragility. The fact that he became the Master of Past and Present sets him [far] apart from any other mortals. Raistlin still had a connection to the flow of time during the War of Souls when the world was stripped of it's original history. If it wasn't for him, the world wouldn't have been taken back by the gods. He was ambitious, intelligent, and had a slew of incredible gifts. I would personally be disappointed if he isn't comparable, at a minimum, with the likes of Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Mordenkeinen (or however it's spelled), etc.
While it may be wishful thinking, it's not for the sake of power gaming. Just ponder, realistically, what he was able to accomplish and compare it to the other powerful mortals in the DLCS. Niether Dalamar nor Palin did anything remotely as trying as what Raistlin achieved, and they were a respectable 18th level or so (according to the Age of Mortals sourcebook). Fistandantilus, whom Raistlin defeated, was 22nd level (according to the Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook). The Master of the Tower template is in the CR 24 range, and that certainly applies to the only person that has been able to walk through the curse. Lord Soth stated that while he can summon legions of undead to his cause, and while he can kill with a command, he knew a master when he saw one. Pretty lofty compliments for the most notorious Death Knight in the Dungeons and Dragons universe.
Furthermore, Raistlin has been referred to as an archmage on several occassions throughout the Legends trilogy; he had, without a doubt, completed all levels of High Sorcery; the entire conclave of wizards, as well as the normally unshakable Astinus, was terrified of him; dragons wouldn't dare challenge him; and he did, for a while, in a universe that was later altered, touch Godhood. These facts, as well as a slew of others presented earlier (and which are likely to follow), prove that there is no reason why Raistlin Majere should have any less power than the template of an avatar. At least one that is of demigod status. Chances are, I will be sorely disappointed, and I will kick cans around like that kid who nobody plays with. But the ranting will be fun
I really, really, really hope to be wrong and we get a Rait's version that satifies every DL fan.
I'm sure there will be a huge amount of complaints with a lot of things, but I expect some people will be satisfied with the book. More or less.
Cheers,
Cam
I really, really, really hope to be wrong and we get a Rait's version that satifies every DL fan.
I don't think that's realistic, really. When statting out any iconic character, there will be complaints and comments like "He should have feat X!" and "Thank the gods you didn't give him feat X!" and "His Charisma is too low!" and "His Charisma is too high!"*
My hope is that the Raistlin presented is seen as perfect by some, flawed but good by many, terrible by few, but consistent by all.
* Edit: I should say that this sort of comment and complaint is OK. DL fans are a diverse bunch with widely varying opinions on just about every facet of the game and the world. Disagreement over things like this is a sign of a healthy fan base, I think.
It was certainly one of the more difficult stat blocks to write. Given that Raistlin himself expressed a disdain for magic items, considering them a crutch, it really does makes life interesting.
I'm sure there will be a huge amount of complaints with a lot of things, but I expect some people will be satisfied with the book. More or less.
Cheers,
Cam
If I am to understand that Cam Banks had anything to do with the stating of Raistlin, it will at very least be nothing less then great.
I hope that the authors give credit to Raistlin where credit is due. Of the countless fantasy novels I have read, covering multiple worlds/campaign settings, there aren't too many characters that rival what he was able to accomplish. Raistlin should have incredible power to survive everything he went through with the handicap of his physical fragility. The fact that he became the Master of Past and Present sets him [far] apart from any other mortals. Raistlin still had a connection to the flow of time during the War of Souls when the world was stripped of it's original history. If it wasn't for him, the world wouldn't have been taken back by the gods. He was ambitious, intelligent, and had a slew of incredible gifts. I would personally be disappointed if he isn't comparable, at a minimum, with the likes of Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Mordenkeinen (or however it's spelled), etc.
While it may be wishful thinking, it's not for the sake of power gaming. Just ponder, realistically, what he was able to accomplish and compare it to the other powerful mortals in the DLCS. Niether Dalamar nor Palin did anything remotely as trying as what Raistlin achieved, and they were a respectable 18th level or so (according to the Age of Mortals sourcebook). Fistandantilus, whom Raistlin defeated, was 22nd level (according to the Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook). The Master of the Tower template is in the CR 24 range, and that certainly applies to the only person that has been able to walk through the curse. Lord Soth stated that while he can summon legions of undead to his cause, and while he can kill with a command, he knew a master when he saw one. Pretty lofty compliments for the most notorious Death Knight in the Dungeons and Dragons universe.
Furthermore, Raistlin has been referred to as an archmage on several occassions throughout the Legends trilogy; he had, without a doubt, completed all levels of High Sorcery; the entire conclave of wizards, as well as the normally unshakable Astinus, was terrified of him; dragons wouldn't dare challenge him; and he did, for a while, in a universe that was later altered, touch Godhood. These facts, as well as a slew of others presented earlier (and which are likely to follow), prove that there is no reason why Raistlin Majere should have any less power than the template of an avatar. At least one that is of demigod status. Chances are, I will be sorely disappointed, and I will kick cans around like that kid who nobody plays with. But the ranting will be fun
:whatsthis
When entering the material plane, she usually assumes the form of the five-headed dragon, Tiamat. That is, at least, what Margaret Weis said in the Annotated Legends notes. Tiamat has an outline of statistics in that Faiths and Pantheons sourcebook by WotC. Pretty beefy.
Those are the statistics for Tiamat in the Forgotten Realms, and have no real bearing on what statistics Takhisis might have when she manifests the 5-headed dragon aspect on Krynn.
Cheers,
Cam
When entering the material plane, she usually assumes the form of the five-headed dragon, Tiamat. That is, at least, what Margaret Weis said in the Annotated Legends notes. Tiamat has an outline of statistics in that Faiths and Pantheons sourcebook by WotC. Pretty beefy.
Tiamat (a Lesser Deity) is weaker than Takhisis (a Greater Deity). It would, however, be feasible to advance Tiamat's stats to Greater Deity, and switch any necessary feats, abilities, etc. thereby creating a possible stat block for Takhisis. Her selection of abilities should focus on her forms. Seduction for the Dark Seductress (Bluff, Diplomacy, and similar abilities); domination for the Dark Warrior (attack feats, Intimidate, and so on).
When entering the material plane, she usually assumes the form of the five-headed dragon, Tiamat. That is, at least, what Margaret Weis said in the Annotated Legends notes. Tiamat has an outline of statistics in that Faiths and Pantheons sourcebook by WotC. Pretty beefy.
Tiamat (a Lesser Deity) is a lot weaker than Takhisis (a Greater Deity). Just advance Tiamat to Greater status and modify abilities as needed.
I believe that KenderBryant is on to something. I forgot that Takhisis, herself feared Raistlin. In his timeline, he destroys her when she enters the mortal realm.
Well, I recall, Raistlin did think that Takhisis would be weaker when she crossed into the mortal plane. However, on place 1116 of Annotated legends (or chapter 10, of book 3 of Test of the Twins) Raistlin would have legions to help him fight Takhisis. "The gods themselves would answer his call, for the Queen appearing in the world in all her might and majesty would bring down the wrath of the heavens."
In my opinion, Raistlin's power was great, but it might not mean he's got more power than Takhisis when She crosses the portal. I'd say he's like a finger on the scale of balance. one Takhisis came, Paladine would have to come. There will be a fight, but Raistlin helps Paladine, essentially dethroning the Takhisis. one he does that, he becomes a god, and gains strength to overthrow the other evil gods.
Weldon.
I do not think that Raist has all five levels in warmage. I mean, remeber in the chronicles ( I do not remeber which book, I know, shame on me) that Raist told Fizban he had not the power to cast firball at that time, which means it is possible that Raist did not even qualify for the PrC. Just some thoughts.
The reason people think he has levels in war mage is because of his training in Brothers in Arms. It could be a contradiction.
Although, come to think of it, his stats in WotL do not include war mage levels, yet that's what his stats are after Xak Tsaroth (and hence well after Brothers in Arms).
Also, since those stats present his as 6th level, he should have the power to cast fireball when he meets Fizban.
Of course, the explanation of all this is that the novels were written long before his stats were published in WotL, and those who wrote up his stats cannot be expect to remember everything. But some of it can still be explained away. For example, perhaps Raistlin meant he did not have a fireball prepared at the time. After all, if preparing a spell imprints its power to be cast onto the mind of the mage, then if he does not have one prepared, he does not have that power.
Personally, though, I'm satisfied with saying there are contradictions. The so-called Law of Noncontradiction that logicians seem to love never really did much for me. :P
Also, since those stats present his as 6th level, he should have the power to cast fireball when he meets Fizban.
He would need to know the spell, first. After Xak Tsaroth, Raistlin has the spellbook of Fistandantilus, which is probably where he picked up spells like arcane sight and deep slumber, but fireball isn't on his list if you check his WOTL stats. Later, he ends up knowing it and practically every other spell in the Player's Handbook, but at that point his resources were somewhat meager.
Cheers,
Cam
He would need to know the spell, first.
Yup, that's another way to interpret "not having the power".
Any idea when the Legends of hte Twins will be released?
Tenativly some time this month.(holds breath longer)
Tenativly some time this month.(holds breath longer)
It will be a little while longer. There's no actual release date confirmed at this point.
Cheers,
Cam
Would throwing a tantrem help? I'll volunteer.
Depends on whether you want to have it take longer or not. Because, you know, the distractions and all.
Cheers,
Cam
Anyway, when I had made earlier references comparing Takhisis to Tiamat, I wasn't talking about Tiamat in the Forgotten Realms. Wizards released a non-campaign specific book of Gods and Pantheons (don't remember the name, but maybe I'm nuts), detailing some of the popular stand-alones as well as the crossovers. Furthermore, the Holy Orders of the Stars book gives Takhisis's alternate name of "Tii'Mut" (forgive spelling), which certainly carries it's similaritites. She's a five-headed, chromatic dragon who dwells in the Abyss. That's the description for Tiamat, and the description for Takhisis when she's in one of her many forms. Even though the statistics for Tiamat are of a lesser diety, it would be safe to apply this template (for comparative purposes) when she is on the material plane. After all, Raistlin wanted to draw her into the material plane where he knew she would be weaker; and, he would have assistance.
What I was trying to get at was the fact that the statistics for Tiamat are pretty impressive: CR 30+ if I'm not mistaken. They could give us a guideline, even if Raistlin did have assistance, as to how much power he does have. Think about the rules in the D20 world for a moment, and take into consideration how many levels someone has to have to even harm someone of Lesser Deity, or CR 30 stature. Maybe I'm overanalyzing, but that's what I do; I work in the insurance world, after all. :P
This is most likely wasted energy on my part, and it comes at a point when this whole discussion is winding to a close. All that I know is that I will be at least 91% innaccurate when the book hits the shelves. I take pride in my 9% of glory.
That was a little off topic, sorry, I ramble.
Actually, I can see as using Tiamat's stats as a very general scale to gauge Raistlin's power. Of course, Taky's *REAL* stats would be much more powerful, but she *IS* greatly weakened on the Material Plane.
Do you have Holy Orders of the Stars yet?
Cheers,
Cam
Yeah, I have HOotS, although I haven't gotten a chance to actually read too much of it. Why?
It should with any luck make all of the notions of the gods and how they appear to mortals make a little more sense.
Cheers,
Cam
Any word when the Legends will be seen?
Have you seen any word?
Cheers,
Cam
As for the Holy Orders of the Stars book, I would have to concede that the Dragonlance books are getting better. The DLCS and the Age of Mortals books were okay, but they were filled with typos and the layout was a little bland. Since then, the Bestiary, ToHS, and HOotS have been definite improvements. I am just surprised that a campaign setting as popular as this one has so little going for it in the market right now. I really feel as though the DLCS book could use a minor overhaul. It should probably be larger, cleaner, and chalk full of maps. As it stands, I feel like I am a part of the only campaign world getting the short end of some larger stick.
No, none of us have seen any word, which is why [we] were hoping that you would know. :D
It's a fair cop.
The truth is, if we knew or had a proper date for release, we'd not hesitate to tell you. There would be no occasion where we were just waiting for somebody to ask us! So if you haven't heard any word and you tend to keep up with the various DL news sites, then there isn't anything to pass on.
Cheers,
Cam
Seeing as how there hasn't been a post on here in five days, I decided to take the initiative and keep it going. I haven't heard anything new regarding the release date. Apparently no one else has either. Oh well. Raistlin should still be the baddest dude ever. After all, I bet he could take both of our dads. (<---little kid remark) Now, back to the writing block.
According to Renae Chambers, there is still no set date for the product.
Do you think that the "Master of Past and Present" will be a template applied to Raistlin; similar to the way FR characters get "Chosen of Mystra" stamped to their statline? If so, what sort of bonuses/drawbacks do you think it would bring? If not, then fubar.
Do you think that the "Master of Past and Present" will be a template applied to Raistlin; similar to the way FR characters get "Chosen of Mystra" stamped to their statline?
Well, he was a master of something, but you'll have to wait and see to find out what.
Don't forget - Wisdom 12.
Oh, and Strength 9.
I've said too much already.
Cheers,
Cam
Not having a date to be released, is that a bad thing?
Nope.
Cheers,
Cam
Do you think that the "Master of Past and Present" will be a template applied to Raistlin; similar to the way FR characters get "Chosen of Mystra" stamped to their statline? If so, what sort of bonuses/drawbacks do you think it would bring? If not, then fubar.
Why would that be a template? All that means is that Raistlin is two people. Part Fistandantilus (the Master in the Past) and part Raistlin (the Master in the Present). I don't think it has anything to do with mastering time travel.
And Raistlin is unique...to create a template for his situation (being the two people) would ruin that unique-ness.
Maybe I was trying to say that he would have a unique set of rules or special abilities because of his title.
I guess I just don't see what special abilities he gets from his title? He doesn't really gain anything from it. He doesn't gain access to Fistandantilus thoughts in the past, it's not like he has a direct link to the Fisti from 400 years ago.
So...what abilities would you think having two essences gain you? (the only thing the "title" gained him was access to the Tower because of the wording of the curse...but that didn't really gain him anything either because the prophecy was about him and just called him the Master of Past and Present...kind of like Anakin's "Chosen One" title, I guess)
The same would apply to someone with such a title as Raistlin's. He was feared by the members of the Conclave because of what his title represented, and what it meant he was capable of. They knew that Raistlin had accomplished something significant, for good or evil, to obtain that title. Meanwhile, it earned the respect of other subjects, such as Dalamar. While Dalamar greatly admired the power of his Shalafi, he also coveted it, and wanted to defeat Raistlin himself. While that never could have happened in a bashmillion years, such an ambition can drive people to do amazing and improbable things, (See James "Buster" Douglas vs. Mike Tyson; the biggest fluke in sports history).
While this is a loose example, it certainly proves that the Charisma of Raistlin, his ability to persuade others, and even the Willpower of those around him could and would be affected by his title. Psychological as it may be, it's still something that isn't too difficult to translate into game terms. I certainly see it as a realistic possibility. Then again, maybe I dig too far into the detailed crumbs of every character.
Why would that be a template? All that means is that Raistlin is two people. Part Fistandantilus (the Master in the Past) and part Raistlin (the Master in the Present). I don't think it has anything to do with mastering time travel.
So long time lurker here who's finally decided to post O:-). But I'm just curious about the comment of not mastering time travel for being part of his name. To me a few things from the novels seem to point at Raistlin's unique mastery over time.
1. I recall in Legends (I'll have to find a quote later - i know right now this is a weak argument) that Austinius mentions something about Raistlin having mastered time when he goes to visit Austinius in the past.
2. In Dragons of Summer Flames, although Raistlin returned to Krynn without his magic, he was able to wade through the River of Time to learn see if Usha's story for being his daughter had any semblance of truth.
3. In the War of Souls, Raistlin was able to wade through the Turbulent River of Time (even when all the other gods - including Zilvyn (sp?) could not) and link the past and present together.
It seems to me that the Title as more than just a simple title, and there there should be abilities tied to it.
It seems to me that the Title as more than just a simple title, and there there should be abilities tied to it.
My point was, though, that the term "Master of the Past and Present" isn't supposed to be an adjective about time travel ability. It is an adjective to explain his soul...which is really two souls: Fistandantilus, the most powerful wizard from the past (ie, "Master of the Past") and Raistlin, the most powerful wizard from the present (ie, "Master of the Present").
I don't know how to explain it any better than that. It's all in how you read it, I guess.
And as for Raist's abilities, I really hope that he will be given abilities as in the Epic level range instead of abstracting it into a bunch of special abilities ala the aspect system (not that the aspect system doesn't rock) I'm just saying that I don't want that Elminster walkin' 'round like he owns the place.....
also, in the end I think the arguement is something akin to the clerks arguement about title dictating behavior, except here we're saying it dictates power. Well, in real life no, but in fantasy yes, it does. If you are the Archmage of Fire and lightning and horses neigh in fear at the mention of your name, likely you are a formitable fellow whose abilities heavily focus on fire and lighting...now you could be a level 1 enchanter who collects butterflies, but not bloody likely. ;) As well as the fact that it was a title that both Raist and Fisty argued about before their showdown began, if y'all recall. Something of the nature of Raist: I have become master of past and present....Fist: No you have not, *I* am! Interpret that as you like, but no matter what you come up with, it spells power. so I hope raist is statted out to be a powerful feller. with me personally, I think he should have the highest challenge rating the campain setting has ever seen, since, well, its true. He's two archmages combined, one that was at least level 20 and another that was at least level 22, probably higher... many have argued that a ECL or some such thing higher than 30 would be silly....and in most circumstances I'd agree, but in the case of a legendary PC like Raist or Elimnster...30 would be far too small, in the end I think making him a good 40 (one level higher than eliminster, ha!) would make enough sense to topple a Greater diety.
I don't want that Elminster walkin' 'round like he owns the place.....
Ohh that Elaminster's a smug jerk.
Elminste's pretty tough. I suppose I could play that out myself, but that's not the reason we wrote up Raistlin's stats.
Cheers,
Cam
PS: Malys could probably wipe the floor with both of them.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing how a fight between the two of them would turn out.
Elminste's pretty tough. I suppose I could play that out myself, but that's not the reason we wrote up Raistlin's stats.
Cheers,
Cam
PS: Malys could probably wipe the floor with both of them.
see, that's what I'm worried about. I really couldn't imagine story wise any of the dragon interlopers taking on legendary characters who can take on greater dieties....the whole thing just seems so counter-intuitive....I mean I know in game terms there would be things like stomping and whatnot, but still....*sigh*.....
But your comment about Elminster vs. Raist instills me with hope, Cam!
But your comment about Elminster vs. Raist instills me with hope, Cam!
The reality is, the winner would be determined by whether the story of the battle was written by Margaret Weis or by Ed Greenwood.
Cheers,
Cam
Elminster is a powerful dude, but Raistlin has that ambition to win at any cost. If he had to travel through time and kill Elminster's parents because he was losing the fight, then he would. If you gave them a neutral plane, without divine aid (no Takhisis vs. Mystra, please), it would be a scene the likes of the destruction of the Death Star. I certainly hope that you guys threw us a bone on this one! *points at Cam* I think one thing that Dragonlance fans try to sell to their Forgotten Realms buddies is that Raistlin is cooler than Elgimpster. I spelled it this way on purpose, by the way.
Why would Raistlin even bother with Elminster when he could go after Mystra or whatever her name is instead?
The only way he'd stand a chance is if she couldn't affect his magic. She's practically immune to magic. Even then, if she could affect his magic, if she got tired of it all she could always deny him access to his spells and then finish him off. Spellfire=fatality!
So it would be something along the lines of this (IMHO):
Prerequisite: must have two essences occupying the same body.
Benefits: Character is effectively invited to the tower of the Palanthas at all times thereby negating any saves to pass through the Shoikan grove. Character is also acknowledged as the master of the tower of Palanthas regardless of the decision of the Wizard council, and remains the master of the tower until the character's spirit is removed from the river of souls and placed in another plane, dimension or whatnot.
Basically it means the the character receives the benefits from the Master of the Tower template in ToHS, and nobody can change it period.
The only way he'd stand a chance is if she couldn't affect his magic. She's practically immune to magic. Even then, if she could affect his magic, if she got tired of it all she could always deny him access to his spells and then finish him off. Spellfire=fatality!
Raistlin doesnt receive his spells from her, how would she be able to affect him?
it's both. Master of past and present denoutes Brim's thing and the more obvious notion of time travel ability. Like it or lump it, Raist *did* have a pretty good mastery over things temporal, and just about everything else too...
Yes he did (although I don't really think he was overly exceptional with time magic, beyond the Time Reaver spell that all Tower Masters receive, until after he completely merged with Fistandantilus). But it didn't have anything to do with the "title" (which wasn't really a title, it was a metaphor to describe the one who would break the curse of the tower).
Raistlin had an extensive knowledge of time travel and River of Time spells out of necessity. Because of what he wanted to accomplish he was going to have to become well versed in those spells and learn how control his movement through the River.
But, in my opinion, (which could be completely killed by Dark Chronicles when we finally see what happened during those last few months) "Master of the Past and Present" didn't have anything to do with his extraordinary abilities with time magic...because it came into play before he learned those abilities. Time will tell, I guess.
PS: Malys could probably wipe the floor with both of them..
Ah well.. I know Elminster is CR45, has over 200 hps, a slew of abilities and the Chosen of Mystara template. I know they've published stats for Malys but I dont know what they are... Anyone know her lvl/CR? Hopefully Raistlin will be able to go toe to toe with El (if not out right kick his arse 
) But Malys isnt even one of the strongest dragon's from her world. Didn't they say she was a small fry o.O? Anyways, Im curious to see if someone can post a a brief summary of Malys' stats just for me to compare her with Elminster. Thanks!
Malystryx is a CR 39 dragon with 1504 hit points, 63 HD, damage reduction 35/epic and SR of 46. She casts spells as a 33rd level sorcerer, and has a 38d10 cone of fire with a save DC of 60.
So she's probably going to do well.
Cheers,
Cam
Eliminster's cr is only 39.
Alright, KenderBryant, yes Mystra would be a handful because of her SR, and High Saves. But Raistlin is not one to fight fair if he was determined to win. There are spells out there that do not allow for SR or even saves, he would use these. Let us not forget also the almighty Epic Spells. And if worse came to worse he would just cheat by traveling back in time to the Time of Troubles and mop the floor with her sorry but before she became a deity. Remember Raistlin does not fight a battle he can't win he is to SLY for that.
Too true. Raistlin, as a totally evil git, would cheat, because he's too wimpy to fight fair. I like Raist (and DL in general, particularly kender), don't get me wrong. I just lean more towards FR, force of habit since a lot of my fave chars are from there (Drizzt, El, Storm, Shandril: we miss you
, etc., etc., etc.).Too true. Raistlin, as a totally evil git, would cheat, because he's too wimpy to fight fair. I like Raist (and DL in general, particularly kender), don't get me wrong. I just lean more towards FR, force of habit since a lot of my fave chars are from there (Drizzt, El, Storm, Shandril: we miss you
Drizzt has always been the only interesting FR character.
Too true. Raistlin, as a totally evil git, would cheat, because he's too wimpy to fight fair.
To borrow a line from a movie, Raisltin shrugs and says "Black robe!"
Drizzt has always been the only interesting FR character.
He is but one of many (although he is the best one of all).
While any DM can create an abundance of variety with any campaign setting of their own or otherwise, FR has this all as a pre-set. The population is rediculously high compared to other campaign settings, and no campaign can even touch the number of epic-level NPC's that the Forgotten Realms have. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that really makes the Forgotten Realms unique. Instead, everything is available, leaving minimal room for creativity and again, uniqueness. Maybe a world like this is good for those who lack imagination; I'm just tired of every group I run into or try to join deciding that that's where they (the gamers) want to play. While I will agree in advance that variety is a good thing on some levels, it can also make for some bad tasting food, if that's understandable.
Back to the original topic.
Raistlin
Wiz 100. That's good enough. :P
Seriously.
No, I'm kidding.
I love scotch. Scotty scotch scotch. Here it goes down; down into my belly...
Brassangleand no campaign can even touch the number of epic-level NPC's that the Forgotten Realms have.
Who really needs that many.
While this allows for a lot of potentially interesting characters, it also means that a quasi-fire efreet will be grouped with an ice dwarf, a wood elf, two githyankis, and a halfling.
It _allows_ for it, but a decent GM wouldn't do that. Besides, a similar thing could be said about Dragonlance.
GM: "Let's play Dragonlance Thursday night."
Players: "Yay Dragonlance!"
GM: "Show up with a 3rd level PC!"
(Thursday night, players produce character sheets.) GM: "OK, we have a minotaur berserker, a kender bard, a Silvanesti paladin of Mishakal, and an aspiring Lily knight who hates nonhumans. Um... yes. That's not going to work."
GMs _need_ to work with players at character generation. That goes for any setting.
I've bought FR books way back since FR Adventures, and I still have no idea what the setting's about. This, I hypothesize, is due to the lack of clear delineations within the Realms regarding anything except the Underdark, and even that aspect's shtick has been eroded over the years by the influx of CG rebel Drow. In most other settings you can point to an area and say, "This area is populated by race X, and they're Bad/Good/etc. They engage in such and such behavior. They feel this way about these other races M,N, and O, and feel that way about these other areas A, B, and C. Classes T, P, and W are most common in this area, with I, U, and F being the least common. Their history is as follows. ..." The Realms feel more like a jumbled amalgam of random, mostly indistinct groupings. This can all be reduced to the statement that the Forgotten Realms setting does not really have a quantifiable identity.
But anyway, because of its lack of identity, everything under the D&D sun can be found or done in the Realms without much of a fuss and without straying from the character of the setting: the setting has no identity from which to stray.
Well, anyway, that's what I like to call my 2p. Hurray for characterful settings!
Even if a "similar" scenario were feasible in Dragonlance, it's only in the poor management of a DM where that would happen. The territories are clearly defined, as are the races and classes that function within them. The plots and alignment trends of the factions within Krynn are identifiable. The Forgotten Realms is the perfect setting for a DM who would follow the example dialogue presented by clarkvalentine. Maybe that's the problem to begin with: there aren't many creative and imaginitive players/DM's left. It's mostly anybody who wants to roll dice and write big numbers in the boxes of a character sheet who are playing anymore. Hence, the popularity of Forgotten Realms. In contrast, there have been a few times where I have attempted to start a campaign, and the players wanted to play in the Forgotten Realms. I decided to do a little research and apply things like nobility, local laws, trends, racial benefits/drawbacks of being in specific places, as well as climate patterns. This turned out to be a nightmare as it's just not well defined in the 10419873 campaign books available to the Realms. Everything and anything basically goes no matter where a player is. Furthermore, the 100 NPC's that live there don't even take an active role. You'd figure someone with 25 levels--since every town has someone of this stature in the Realms--would be concerned if the Mature Adult Red Dragon from my little adventure was wandering around his or her woods. Nope. That's because there's nothing going on in the Realms at any given time. Just millions of adventurers. Rant rant rant rant...Oh yeah, to be a little more realistic and on topic:
Raistlin Majere, Master of Past and Present (in no particular order)
Wizard 7
War Mage 5
Wizard of High Sorcery 10
Archmage 5
Str: 9, Dex: 12, Con: 8, Int: 26, Wis: 13, Cha: 20; hp 41; AC: blah blah
Maybe I'm way off. Actually, I'll bet I am way off. When in Rome...
Score! Two Anchorman references in a row!
Eliminster's cr is only 39.
Really? My book says 45.. maybe theres are different editions? Can anyone validate Elminster's CR?
Really? My book says 45.. maybe theres are different editions? Can anyone validate Elminster's CR?
The version of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting I have also says 45, however with the release of the ELH it changed. Also if you go to a book store and look at a new version of the setting it will have been corrected in it as well.
I think Brassangel was referring more to the fact that Forgotten Realms, as the most popular and best supported setting, has become overrun with options to the point that it is more generic than even Greyhawk. Compounding this is that Forgotten Realms lacks a unifying shtick, for lack of a better word. Eberron, as much as I dislike it, has its high-powered-spellpunkiness; Dragonlance has its high involvement with dragons and the classical romance embodied by the Solamnic and Nerakan knights; Midnight has its dark, hopeless, "you will never accomplish anything significant" melancholy. What characterizes the Realms, aside from its inordinately large number of deities? *crickets*
I've bought FR books way back since FR Adventures, and I still have no idea what the setting's about. This, I hypothesize, is due to the lack of clear delineations within the Realms regarding anything except the Underdark, and even that aspect's shtick has been eroded over the years by the influx of CG rebel Drow. In most other settings you can point to an area and say, "This area is populated by race X, and they're Bad/Good/etc. They engage in such and such behavior. They feel this way about these other races M,N, and O, and feel that way about these other areas A, B, and C. Classes T, P, and W are most common in this area, with I, U, and F being the least common. Their history is as follows. ..." The Realms feel more like a jumbled amalgam of random, mostly indistinct groupings. This can all be reduced to the statement that the Forgotten Realms setting does not really have a quantifiable identity.
But anyway, because of its lack of identity, everything under the D&D sun can be found or done in the Realms without much of a fuss and without straying from the character of the setting: the setting has no identity from which to stray.
Well, anyway, that's what I like to call my 2p. Hurray for characterful settings!
Ye'd best hope Ed doesnae see this and take offense. But, then again, he just migh' inform ye on what the Realms really is aboot. Of carse, he migh' jus' take his awn swaet time aboot it too, really gettin' 'is wind, and goin' on aboot it fer 'ours. Jes' like a certain Archmage everyone knows, aye?
And yes, the updated version of Elminster places him at CR 39. Let's hope that the updated version of Raistlin places him in a similar boat.
Cheers,
Cam
I think that when it comes to Raistlin's stats, some people are going to be very happy, some people will be very unhappy, and some people won't feel strongly one way or the other.
Cheers,
Cam
...*snicker*....that's the possible outcome of anything!
I have no idea what was just said, but I imagine it meant something important. Perhaps Ed Greenwood will take a cue from messages like this and actually tell us all what's really going on. That would be nice. Although, I don't really care since I'm rarely playing there anyway. Nonetheless, I have a lot of friends that would be happy.
And yes, the updated version of Elminster places him at CR 39. Let's hope that the updated version of Raistlin places him in a similar boat.
I was stating that either Ed would be upset about the Realms being called more generic than Greyhawk, or he'd just fill in what everyone missed about the point of the Realms, ala Elminster (Being long-winded, like the Old Mage).
I think that when it comes to Raistlin's stats, some people are going to be very happy, some people will be very unhappy, and some people won't feel strongly one way or the other.
Cheers,
Cam
Are you presumptuously assuming that long-time Raistlin fans, (like myself and Ares), will be unhappy and the Elminster camp will be more than satisfied? Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot? :D
I'm sure an excellent job has been done.
Is the stone going to be detailed?
yes, I would like to no that as well....and just as a note, I just never liked the stats in second edition, the whole thing of equaling the casters level thing seemed to be counter intuitive to how it was used in the novels.
Has my last question been answered? I should probably wait for that before asking a bunch more....oh well, can't wait.
Will the Dragon Orb, as well as an updated Cyan Bloodbane be in there? Maybe his stats are already lingering around somewhere.
Ye'd best hope Ed doesnae see this and take offense. But, then again, he just migh' inform ye on what the Realms really is aboot. Of carse, he migh' jus' take his awn swaet time aboot it too, really gettin' 'is wind, and goin' on aboot it fer 'ours. Jes' like a certain Archmage everyone knows, aye?
As far as I know from reading interviews with the man, the Realms didn't have a unifying theme to begin with, which would explain why it sticks in my craw. But I'll gladly talk to Mr. Greenwood should the opportunity ever arise. Until then, I'll be happy playing Dragonlance and Dawnforge, with maybe a little Midnight thrown in for good measure, thank ye much.
Hell, I'd rather just play the WLD as a standalone campaign than get into a Realms game. FR =
My fellow geekers and I have decided to venture through the new world, post War of Souls. I should still probably pick that up though.Ah yes, the bloodstone. It's all so much clearer to me now. Thanks for the help.
Just for kicks to stay on original topic, I'll post another failed attempt at Raistlin's stats; but first, I have a question: If a character change robes, does one then become a level 1 WoHS again? Example: I have a Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red) who then converts to black. Does he/she technically gain a new prestige class (ie: Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red), WoHS 1 (Black))? Or does it just keep ticking in the same category?
Just for kicks to stay on original topic, I'll post another failed attempt at Raistlin's stats; but first, I have a question: If a character change robes, does one then become a level 1 WoHS again? Example: I have a Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red) who then converts to black. Does he/she technically gain a new prestige class (ie: Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red), WoHS 1 (Black))? Or does it just keep ticking in the same category?
You retain all levels that you had, and from this point on you choose Order secrets from your new Order. You can switch out old secrets for new ones as you advance, much as sorcerers and mystics can switch out older spells for new ones. You'll have a few minor penalties, also, but nothing too horrible.
Cheers,
Cam
Are you presumptuously assuming that long-time Raistlin fans, (like myself and Ares), will be unhappy and the Elminster camp will be more than satisfied? Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot? :D
I don't think you're going to get an answer on that until the book comes out. No one really wants to talk about the stats.
Although, it would be kind of funny (now that I've procalimed the above) if the on-line preview ended up being Raistlin's stats. heh heh
And yes, the updated version of Elminster places him at CR 39. Let's hope that the updated version of Raistlin places him in a similar boat.
39!?! Are you kidding!? It wasn't 39 in the FRCS was it? That's just...well, that's really just rediculous and stupid and excessive.
I don't think you're going to get an answer on that until the book comes out. No one really wants to talk about the stats.
Although, it would be kind of funny (now that I've procalimed the above) if the on-line preview ended up being Raistlin's stats. heh heh39!?! Are you kidding!? It wasn't 39 in the FRCS was it? That's just...well, that's really just rediculous and stupid and excessive.
yeah, he was 39...in ECL, though, not character levels like you're probably thinking, Brim. the chosen of mystra template ate up quite a few levels, although I can't remember how many character levels he had....anybody got the book in front of them?
yeah, he was 39...in ECL, though, not character levels like you're probably thinking, Brim. the chosen of mystra template ate up quite a few levels, although I can't remember how many character levels he had....anybody got the book in front of them?
Ftr 1, Rog 2, Clr 3, Wiz 24, Arch 5= 35
Elminister is cheesy, poor thing.
Yes, so very cheesy
Thanks, Cam, for answering so quickly. So a character can never actually have more than 10 levels of WoHS; that's cool. So then my first shot at his statline was probably more accurate than any I'll produce from here on out.
Oh yeah, and the "reliable" source that told me New Year's for the release has changed his/her mind. So much for reliability. Plus, I received an e-mail from Margaret Weis stating that there are some printing issues and a little head-butting between Sovereign Press and Wizards. Well, at least as far as she would let me know.
I highly doubt that, on paper, Raistlin will be as rediculous as Elminster. But that's okay, because Elminster is just that; rediculous. Malystryx was an uber-alien dragon overlord and she barely tips that CR. I expect to see our buddy in high 20's (at least I hope). While I come off as a fan boy and I would love to see "CR 42" or something behind Mr. Majere's stat-line, I'll just have to learn to be...what's the word...content. *sigh while kicking can*
Cheesy like a hunk of limburger...BRILLIANT!
Thanks, Cam, for answering so quickly. So a character can never actually have more than 10 levels of WoHS; that's cool. So then my first shot at his statline was probably more accurate than any I'll produce from here on out.
Well, an epic character could likely get more than 10, as per the Epic rules for extending PrCs.
Ftr 1, Rog 2, Clr 3, Wiz 24, Arch 5= 35
And some GMs complain about lowly "level-dipping" in fighter just to get martial weapon proficiency. Sheesh, even the designers of FR can't resist doing it.
;)
So as an epic character, you can extend prestige classes? I should read these books more often. Do you really believe that Raistlin used those spots to extend that particular prestige class? Perhaps he'd do it to Archmage (if possible), or whatever else he was at the height of his power...what was it? Oh yeah: A GOD!
Raist was too cool for that. Whee, I get Sudden Extend for free! Yay! Whee, I get Sudden Extend for free! Yay!
It's not supposed to be significantly more powerful than other classes, including base classes, you know.
Raist had no such experience....
Edit: To keep this somewhat on topic, I would like to see Raist with a couple of levels in an ur-priestish type class. That way he did not have to dip into wild sorcery, while still spiting the gods and using magic!
Raist had no such experience....
What are you talking about? Raist lives with it everyday...I mean he is a woman after all.
(oh come on...he set up, how can not at least take a swing!?) :D
It's not supposed to be significantly more powerful than other classes, including base classes, you know.
Yeah, but reading through it I was so bored I almost kicked my dog's balls. :P I mean, if it's going to be that blah, why even bother making a PrC out of it? Why not just let people continue advancing as Wizards?
Yeah, but reading through it I was so bored I almost kicked my dog's balls. :P I mean, if it's going to be that blah, why even bother making a PrC out of it? Why not just let people continue advancing as Wizards?
It's actually marginally better than the straight wizard class, opens up access to moon magic, expands the class skill list, adds the option of specializing later than 1st level, and provides several benefits without sacrificing anything but the advancement of one's familiar.
Perhaps not the darling of the Character Optimization boards, but we all must live with our disappointments.
Cheers,
Cam
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkvalentine
It's not supposed to be significantly more powerful than other classes, including base classes, you know.
Yeah, but reading through it I was so bored I almost kicked my dog's balls. I mean, if it's going to be that blah, why even bother making a PrC out of it? Why not just let people continue advancing as Wizards?
Well you can. All you have to do is take the test. You are not required to take the prestige class to be a WoHS.
Yeah, but reading through it I was so bored I almost kicked my dog's balls. :P I mean, if it's going to be that blah, why even bother making a PrC out of it? Why not just let people continue advancing as Wizards?
The moon magic alone makes it worth it in my opinion, the order secrets make it that much better.
The WoHS class is really good. The skills that are opened and the ability for the moons to increase your caster level, wow. I think that Raistlin would have at least 5 or so levels in that, much more likely , and not a one in war mage.
If were talking about the prc from the Age of Mortals book and not the Complete Arcane core class, I would tend to think he had at least one.
I noticed this when I was trying to develop a 7th level Enchanter as an NPC for the party to fight.
But you are right: there's no Black Robe Order secret for enchantment beyond the possibility of Magic of Hunger to prepare an extra spell.
There is one thing unique about the Black Robe Order Secrets: they can all be used at once (assuming I'm not missing some rule). Magic of Hunger to prepare Horrid Wilting (or some other damaging necromancy spell) and then use Magic of Pain, Magic of Fear, Magic of Betrayal and Magic of Darkness to boost the spell to something really nasty. Red and White Robes can't use more than 2 or 3 Secrets at once (and even that's pushing it).
Magic of Hunger to prepare Horrid Wilting (or some other damaging necromancy spell) and then use Magic of Pain, Magic of Fear, Magic of Betrayal and Magic of Darkness to boost the spell to something really nasty. Red and White Robes can't use more than 2 or 3 Secrets at once (and even that's pushing it).
Magic of Hunger must be used when the Black Robe is preparing his or her spells. That could probably be clearer. The others can all be used as part of the casting of a spell, although using Magic of Fear turns the spell into a full-round action.
You could probably add a new Order Secret (Magic of Temptation, for example) that empowers or extends any enchantment spell the wizard casts. The reason we didn't add any new Order Secrets in ToHS (even though we revised the class) is that a character with 10 levels in the class is expected to know all of his Order's secrets. One possibility would be to extend the class into epic levels, and create more secrets, with the option of taking an epic level bonus feat instead (the way archmages can) but we haven't gone the epic route yet.
Cheers,
Cam
Magic of Hunger must be used when the Black Robe is preparing his or her spells. That could probably be clearer. The others can all be used as part of the casting of a spell, although using Magic of Fear turns the spell into a full-round action.
That's what I meant: prepare an extra damaging necromancy spell. The Order Secrets then would make it a full round action to cast but it could be empowered, painful, intimidating and half it's damage would be negative energy.
This brings me to an interpretation question: Magic of Hunger causes 1 point of constitution damage per spell level. So can you prepare an extra 0th level spell per day at no cost or does a 0th level count as 1/2 level and then have a minimum of 1 damage (as per combat rules)?
Anyways, Magic of Hunger definitely sounds like something Raistlin would use quite a bit: trading health for extra spell power.
What are you talking about? Raist lives with it everyday...I mean he is a woman after all.
(oh come on...he set up, how can not at least take a swing!?) :D
Nah, he had MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder). I mean, he was Raist, and Fist. He also heard voices in his head (Fist's).
Just for kicks to stay on original topic, I'll post another failed attempt at Raistlin's stats; but first, I have a question: If a character change robes, does one then become a level 1 WoHS again? Example: I have a Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red) who then converts to black. Does he/she technically gain a new prestige class (ie: Wiz 6, WoHS 3 (Red), WoHS 1 (Black))? Or does it just keep ticking in the same category?
ToHS tells how to handle changing allegiance/robes on pg. 20.
In regards to the War Mage question: Yes, we're referring to the one from the Age of Mortals supplement, not the Complete Arcane sourcebook. I don't even add the Complete series to my Dragonlance campaign. I'm pretty traditional when it comes to being campaign specific, I guess. I would imagine that Raistlin has/had at least one level in this prestige class given what he went through in Soulfourge and Brothers in Arms. I could be crazy.
P.S. Elminster = Tranny; Raistlin = Advanced Delusionary Schizophrenia with Involuntary Narcissistic Rage.
I would imagine that Raistlin has/had at least one level in this prestige class given what he went through in Soulfourge and Brothers in Arms. I could be crazy.
The prerequisites are a killer, unfortunately. Some wizards have other things to spend their feat slots on.
Cheers,
Cam
The prerequisites are a killer, unfortunately. Some wizards have other things to spend their feat slots on.
Cheers,
Cam
So Wis 12
Probably no War mage.
If we keep bleeding him for info soon we'll still have nothing to go on.
And won't you feel silly when you see I'm right.
The prerequisites are a killer, unfortunately. Some wizards have other things to spend their feat slots on.
Cheers,
Cam
I suppose it would be possible to use the Wepaon Focus option in ranged or melee touch spells from The Complete Arcane.
So, no War Mage. And since [they] will most likely avoid using non-DL sources, other than the 3 core books, he probably won't have Warmage from either source. Well, I'm sure he'll still rock.
It is not clear that a mage has to prepare the spell with his order secrets, it seems that they can do it automatically.
If you're talking about Magic of Hunger, then note that it specifically states that the wizard may prepare one extra spell at the cost of Constitution. This means they may prepare the spell in addition to the others they prepare each day. They can't just spend Constitution at any time and cast an extra spell.
Cheers,
Cam
Just trying to stay on topic.I'll tell you this though: I'm getting a lot of rules questions answered that I didn't even know I didn't know. Yeah, I meant to say it that way.
Yar...(*pirate's notation of a grim feeling*)
So, no War Mage. And since [they] will most likely avoid using non-DL sources, other than the 3 core books, he probably won't have Warmage from either source. Well, I'm sure he'll still rock.
I also have the greatest confidence in the situation. Just on a side note, I don't know who did the stats for Mina during the Dark deciple trilogy but it's very diffrent from the Mina in the Age of Mortals book. The levels = 20 in both but how they got 20 is diffrent in both.
Huh? Mina has different stats? In what book?
In the Age of Mortals she has 12clr/8rzlt
On the d20 side of her mini card she has 17clr/ 3rzlt
I'm sure that there's a perfectly good explanation for this.
In the Age of Mortals she has 12clr/8rzlt
On the d20 side of her mini card she has 17clr/ 3rzlt
I'm sure that there's a perfectly good explanation for this.
Probably to make her a more powerful spellcaster for the minis game.
Cheers,
Cam
Does anybody here think that Mina could give Raistlin a tough time? After all, one would be competing for Takhisis's love, and the other would want to dominate her. That would be an interesting clash.
They have DragonLance minis? Where the heck have I been?
Does anybody here think that Mina could give Raistlin a tough time? After all, one would be competing for Takhisis's love, and the other would want to dominate her. That would be an interesting clash.
Not really, just a few peppered in the dnd minis
Now, with that out of the way, they should put a poll in this thread. :D I'm kidding...unless they'd actually do it.
Nyuk nyuk!Raistlin is the most powerful wizard, if not character, to ever live on Krynn. Malystryx would probably give him a good run; being a CR 68460841350 dragon, or whatever she is.
I would just like to take the time to apologize to everyone who also posts on DragonLance.com. I wrote a thread that pitted Elminster vs. Raistlin and then had it promptly removed. Believe me, I am not one to break the rules, so don't think I was just trying to get everyone's blood boiling. I completely overlooked the condition that forbids it.
Now, with that out of the way, they should put a poll in this thread. :D I'm kidding...unless they'd actually do it.
Raistlin is the most powerful wizard, if not character, to ever live on Krynn. Malystryx would probably give him a good run; being a CR 68460841350 dragon, or whatever she is.
I agree, Raistlin is the wizard that puts all other wizards to shame.
P.S. Malystryx CR is 39
39 is huge. I think Elminster is close to that, and he'd give Raistlin a tough time. Malystryx would probably melt Elminster, so I imagine that would be quite a time for Raistlin.
Elminster is suppose to be CR39 as well. In the Avatar trilogy though, Elminster had trouble with an Avatar of Bane. Raistlin defeated Takhisis not as an Avatar (or Aspect) but while she was in her true form upon Krynn. I'd say Raist should win :P . However, Cam has already alluded to Malys being a good bit stronger than Raist so oh well
Does anyone else thinks Malys is a bit overrated? I agree she should be very strong but a caster lvl of 33 as well? She is a small fish compared to other dragons of her native land AND she did fall to Mina fairly easily (though Mina did have some help from Tak).Elminster is suppose to be CR39 as well. In the Avatar trilogy though, Elminster had trouble with an Avatar of Bane. Raistlin defeated Takhisis not as an Avatar (or Aspect) but while she was in her true form upon Krynn.
None of the gods can really have a "true form" on Krynn or anywhere on the material plane, although they can muster up a pretty potent aspect. This is because the true form of the gods isn't something you can physically interact with, it's outside of that sort of limitation.
Cheers,
Cam
If I'm not mistaken, isn't Bane a lesser or intermediate? Wouldn't his avatar be weaker than one of Takhisis? Nonetheless, Raistlin defeated hers and the rest, making him cooler. :P
I was just going to say that, but instead, I will second it.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't Bane a lesser or intermediate? Wouldn't his avatar be weaker than one of Takhisis? Nonetheless, Raistlin defeated hers and the rest, making him cooler. :P
There isn't anyone from the FR that is cooler then Raistlin.
But I do belive that Bane is greater, however did Eleminster replace Bane or even eliminate him from existance? Raistlin did both, and then destroyed the rest of the gods as well.
Yes, Raistlin is one of the most interesting characters in all of the D&D universe. That might not make him the most powerful, non-creature character, however. Although, I would like to see him with rediculous, out-of-this-world statistics. I've been hearing rumors of low-20's, so let's hope that they are wrong.
To Treymordin: On Amazon.com, they say that the book will ship December 28-30. We'll see.
Although, I would like to see him with rediculous, out-of-this-world statistics.
You and me both.
Raistlin stomps Elgimpy.
just another Raistlin fan who is agreeing in making him one of the most powerful beings the Dragonlance Campaign has ever seen!! I am a little dissappointed that some of the favourite characters (such as Dalamar the Dark) are a little bit understated. So the Dungeonmaster has to upgrade them to make them a challenge to powerful PC's. I dearly hoped the 18 lvl limit would fall in the new D&D setting. It fall indeed but not in the way I
hoped.
So I hope the stats for Raistlin would scare even tough PC's. Krynn deserves a really powerful mage who earns the respect of even FR-players. Comparing him with Elminster I agree in Raists stats should be at least equal to him. But everybody who reads the Dragonlance books have to agree that he has to be more powerful than Elminster.
And as you already wrote: The Dragonlance Campaign deserves to have the most powerful being of all Campaign World in the beloved Raist! :D
So I hope the stats for Raistlin would scare even tough PC's.
They should. He's pretty scary. I'm sure you could probably take him out with a well-placed high-level blow to the head, but then he's a wizard, not a gladiator.
Cheers,
Cam
Hi Brassangel, VictorC, Treymordin!
just another Raistlin fan who is agreeing in making him one of the most powerful beings the Dragonlance Campaign has ever seen!! I am a little dissappointed that some of the favourite characters (such as Dalamar the Dark) are a little bit understated. So the Dungeonmaster has to upgrade them to make them a challenge to powerful PC's.
I think the point is that when PCs reach level 18 or so, they're on par with people like Palin and Dalamar at the height of their power. High level PCs, even non-epic ones, are extremely powerful in the Dragonlance setting. Once they get to 15th or 16th level or so, they should have significant impact on the world - people like Dalamar should regard them as equals.
Krynn deserves a really powerful mage who earns the respect of even FR-players.
It's just not that hard to write up a mad-l33t uber-NPC; respect can't come from how high a challenge rating an NPC is, as you can always add just another level of some other PrC, or toss on another template, or... etc. You get the picture.
That said, Raistlin will, I'm certain, be significantly more powerful than just about any other NPC we've seen in Dragonlance.
I agree; he should be significantly more powerful than the other NPC's. At least stronger than Fisty. I sincerely doubt, however, that he will have higher numbers than Elminster. Ed Greenwood just went nuts with his NPC's. In Dragonlance, the difference is as been stated: once you're over 15, you are likely very important in the worldwide span of things.
I'd like to see Raistlin close to 30, though. That would be nice. :D
I second the 30+ :D . Seriously though, if he's going to be a match for Elminster, then he's going to have to have something at least near 30 and/or some insane templates/abnormal powers.
While Eleminster has a 39 CR he only has 29 levels of wizard. In my opinion Raistlin would only need 29-30 levels of the things he'd take, WoHS Wiz Arch to be more than a match for Eleminster. He'd be able to turn spells just as good if not better, and I know for a fact that a man that can destroy a plague ridden village with a single spell isn't going to let him get close enough to make use of his non-wizards abilitys(ie sneak attack).
While Eleminster has a 39 CR he only has 29 levels of wizard. In my opinion Raistlin would only need 29-30 levels of the things he'd take, WoHS Wiz Arch to be more than a match for Eleminster. He'd be able to turn spells just as good if not better, and I know for a fact that a man that can destroy a plague ridden village with a single spell isn't going to let him get close enough to make use of his non-wizards abilitys(ie sneak attack).
Its not the sneak attack that im worried about. It's that if theyre both the same caster lvl, we've got the Chosen of Mystra template to contend with (some insane powers along with over 200 hitpoints), etc. Cam already indicated that Raistlin didnt have much hitpoints (which id agree is logical). If we assume that Raistlin also has 29 caster lvls, then there are some special abilities he needs not normal to class progression to even out the playing field.
In the Age of Mortals she has 12clr/8rzlt
On the d20 side of her mini card she has 17clr/ 3rzlt
I'm sure that there's a perfectly good explanation for this.
Hi VictorC,
I think in the stats in AoM is a mistake. In that book Mina has access to spells
up to level 9 (but in fact in that book she is only 12clr so she could only use spells up to level 6). So on her mini card she is 17clr and has access to spells
up to level 9.
Greez Dagnarus
the miniatures prolly did the change because there is no way to represent the artifact using the miniatures rules? i dont really know anything about miniatures, but that's my guess.
the miniatures prolly did the change because there is no way to represent the artifact using the miniatures rules? i dont really know anything about miniatures, but that's my guess.
Yes, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Cheers,
Cam
Its not the sneak attack that im worried about. It's that if theyre both the same caster lvl, we've got the Chosen of Mystra template to contend with (some insane powers along with over 200 hitpoints), etc. Cam already indicated that Raistlin didnt have much hitpoints (which id agree is logical). If we assume that Raistlin also has 29 caster lvls, then there are some special abilities he needs not normal to class progression to even out the playing field.
As for the hit points a world class Blackrobe would have no problem using spells like False life, Spectral hand to deliver Vampiric touch. More options for him, I'm sure there is. As for that muchkin template,why would Raistlin cast those spells from his immunities at him when I'm sure he's got much much better to use. No even it they had the same number of spellcasting levels( whitch I personaly think raistlin would have more ) he's got nothing to worrie about.
mina in age of mortals has an artifact called the emdallion of the one god, that boosts her spellcasting (inluidng spell levels known and number of spells per day), allowing her the spellcasting ability she possesses in the stats.
the miniatures prolly did the change because there is no way to represent the artifact using the miniatures rules? i dont really know anything about miniatures, but that's my guess.
Ahh I didn't even think of that, thank you for pointing that out.
As for the hit points a world class Blackrobe would have no problem using spells like False life, Spectral hand to deliver Vampiric touch. More options for him, I'm sure there is. As for that muchkin template,why would Raistlin cast those spells from his immunities at him when I'm sure he's got much much better to use. No even it they had the same number of spellcasting levels( whitch I personaly think raistlin would have more ) he's got nothing to worrie about.
Ohh and I forgot two words, Energy Drain with a touch ac of 17 Raistlin should have no problem hitting Eleminster for 2d4 negative levels. Which take Eleminster right out of the contest
I think that this discussion will go on as long as Raistlin and Elminster are popular characters; as long as Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms are popular, respectively. Besides, it's fun to contemplate.
Fun indeed
So, with that out of the way, I've heard a couple of people say '30', can we get a 34?
34 Do I hear 35
I think that we should re-open the Loremaster discussion. I believe that this class would make sense if, Raistlin actually has enough levels to play with. I have never read a fiction story that included a character that studied and read as much as Raistlin. It's like he has Gandalf's wisdom (who was definitely a loremaster), and the spellcasting abilities of any mage. I don't know the Loremaster prestige class that well, however, so I'm interested to see how many levels he may or may not have to obtain the abilities we frequently assume and read about. Maybe I'm nuts.
***On a side note*** Gandalf, the White, would likely have the half-celestial template (being a Maiar), Loremaster, Wizard, Cleric, and even a pinch of rogue or fighter; seeing as how he can slay orcs at will. Just for fun...
I don't know the Loremaster prestige class that well, however, so I'm interested to see how many levels he may or may not have to obtain the abilities we frequently assume and read about. Maybe I'm nuts.
He has all the loremaster PrC levels that he needs. I think I can safely say that much.
Cheers,
Cam
He has all the loremaster PrC levels that he needs. I think I can safely say that much.
Cheers,
Cam
Ahhhhaaaa
Wis 12
Probably roughly 5ish levels of Loremaster
No levels in War Mage
The picture is still mighty hazy but becoming more clear.
Well, VictorC, it seems as though this once drawn out series of multi-paragraphed posts that included class, statistic, and power level debates has been reduced to two people auctioning off levels. *sigh*
It was fun while it lasted, who knows perhaps it will become lively again
Thanks once again Cam for making unclear ambiguity clear ambiguity!
Probably roughly 5ish levels of Loremaster
You know, zero levels of loremaster might be all he needs. I'm just saying.
Cheers,
Cam
You know, zero levels of loremaster might be all he needs. I'm just saying.
Cheers,
Cam
True, I never thought of it like that. I estimated how many I thought would be the most useful. Not that I would really know.
I have never read a fiction story that included a character that studied and read as much as Raistlin. It's like he has Gandalf's wisdom (who was definitely a loremaster), and the spellcasting abilities of any mage.
I don't know "Wise" and "Raistlin" never really seemed to go together for me. Not that he doesn't have any common sense, I just don't think he's super wise. All the book learnin' in the world won't make you wise, just intelligent...which can get you in a lot of trouble. I think Raistlin suffered from this a bit. His intelligence far outstripped his common sense (ie, wisdom), even though he wasn't lacking in either.
Intelligence is knowledge learned, wisdom is knowledge earned. If Raistlin was truly wise, he never would have undertaken his quest...but then we'd never have Legends. So it all worked out in the end.
I don't know "Wise" and "Raistlin" never really seemed to go together for me.
It didn't for me either until Summer Flame. His mentoring of Palin showed at least better than average insight, I think.
I don't know "Wise" and "Raistlin" never really seemed to go together for me.
I was just rereading Legends the other day and there was a specific mention of wisdom that drew my attention. Mainly because of Cam told us Raist's wisdom score. Anyways I can't recall exactly what was said but it was something to do with describing Raistlin's face... something about his typical wise and intelligent face being replaced by something furious or what not.
Does anyone know whether Legends has gone to print yet?
It's tenitive release date is set for February. I personaly am very excited about this product.
Intelligence is knowledge learned, wisdom is knowledge earned. If Raistlin was truly wise, he never would have undertaken his quest...but then we'd never have Legends. So it all worked out in the end.
I don't agree with this analysis.
Intelligence and wisdom have nothing to do with knowledge. Knowledge is something learned and studied, something that is not a personal faculty that can be developed through use like wisdom or intelligence.
Intelligence, in D&D terms, is one's ability to reason, analyze, and interpret information. Wisdom is more intuitive, it is understanding and insight rather than rationality and logic.
Raistlin most certainly possesses intelligence in droves, and while his wisdom is not insignificant it also isn't considerable.
plus if any one was a sorcerer before the 5th age they then would be branded renegades hunted down and killed. Fisty and raist are two who could have figured sorcery out used it but due to the conclave fearing them were never truely branded renegades for their use of sorcery.
We know sorcerer can become wizards and vice versa so why couldnt the best mages do both. As for a templete for raist in the mortal world would have to rival (doesnt have to be better just up there) the templete for any of the gods avatars since he has the potential to beat them.
After legends or chaos war he would no longer have templete i assume since he was up there with the gods. He was not bound by their rules thus he was able to travel the planes, intervine on their meetings and even find their lost world. I assume from how he treats the other gods during the war of souls that he does not fear them if anything they fear him more then they would like to admit.
but back to the point raist stats at the height of his power would match a gods avatar maybe a lil weaker but we all know even i slightly weaker charecter can win a fight if played probably especially with some lucky roles.
Where do people get the idea that Raistlin and/or Fisty used sorcery?
Some people see the fact that High Sorcery is the provence of the gods and assume that they would just strip him of the magic instead of letting him continue on his path. They also see that Primal Sorcery is something that for the most part is drawn from within, and so the gods couldn't take from him. So some people think that Raistlin used Primal Sorcery.
Cheers,
Cam
Legends of the Twins is now on sale in PDF format from DrivethruRPG.com. Here's the link:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3252
Enjoy,
Cam
ie: Raistlin is a CR: XX character. But that's about it.
So uhm, for those who are waiting for the hardcover copy/seeing if its worth buying O:-) anyone want to provide the breakdown of levels for ole Raist and any significant special powers :P?
Given I just bought the pdf, I could.. but I won't. If Cam didn't want it to appear in the preview, then there is a good reason.
What I can say is that the book is worth buying (ok Cam, I earned my free sample of your next product now, haven't I? :D ).
There are a LOT of NPC in there, most of which have multiple classes, PrC, and/or template. Kudos to whoever cranked the numbers for it musn't have been easy. Thank god for E-Tool! It allows me to check out the raw data way faster than I expected.
The return of some old spells and the appearance of new ones is another good news. As a fan of Timeheal (that first appeared in the old 1e hardcover), allow me to say "YAY!"
Anyone expecting Raistlin to be the only high CR NPC in the book is in for a few surprises but let's leave it at that for now.
The adventure I already had since it had been published in Dungeon Mag. but the fact that it was updated to 3.5 DL makes it a worthwhile addition.
The art throughout the book is ok. There isn't that much of it actually but then again I wasn't especially looking for pictures when I bought it
Now, the real shining piece of work is the Alternate Krynn section. Boy, oh boy! We really get our money worth of ideas in there. Without spoiling it too much, I can say that the fans of "What if..?" will be very happy. My favorite is Hourglass in the Sky as I like the concept of a race against time. Kudos again to whoever wrote the short story on p.178. It caught perfectly the mood of a campaign where the PC jump from one timeline to another (and the last paragraph was hilarious
)Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
People are already starting to purchase the book over at DriveThruRPG.com, so maybe we'll hear from them soon!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
:D
With that statement coming for a god, I really hope they did Raistlin justice in this book. So eh now...spoilers!!! :P Private me if youre concerned that other people don't want to be spoiled. Jamie already indicated in the dragonlance.com forum that talking about the book would be ok as long as it isnt cut and paste.
This book sounds great.
For those who do not want it to be spoiled on the public forums, I will ask that anybody who knows, please PM me the general data for ol' Mr. Hourglass. Thanks!
This book sounds great.
I'm surious to see it as well. So if you could ping me as well that would ge grand.
Of course, those people who have the book already know there's a lot more to it than just stat blocks.
Cheers,
Cam
Lots of goodies include the alternate timeline where Raistlin rules the universe, stats and fluff for many of the characters in these stories, new and old spells galore, and much more. I'm drooling.
And by the way, Raistlin is way macho; at least for a DL character.
And by the way, Raistlin is way macho; at least for a DL character.
Warning: SLIGHT SPOILER
It's still sad that every other epic character in Forgotten Realms can mop the floor with him though
(at least from what i been told it seems that way) . Although I haven't purchased the book, my impression is that his stat block doesn't seem to make him a unique character; his CR is 1 lvl higher than his combined lvls.It's still sad that every other epic character in Forgotten Realms can mop the floor with him though
Why does it matter?
Why does it matter?
That's because some people like to mix their apples (Dragonlance) and their oranges (Forgotten Realms). I'm an apple man myself, though I do partake of the orange every now and then. Of course, there are the fruit vendors (Spelljammer) and street corner hawkers (Planescape), but they're both sad and lonely types. :P
Oh yeah ... bought the pdf book at drivethrurpg.com ... sooo soo very good, drool dripping on keyboard good. :D
I guess the DL people could have just added X levels to Raistlin to be all, "Neener neener neener! We have the meanest character!" but they went for flavor. It is a little disappointing to see that he wasn't very "unique" on paper. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying it so far.
It is a little disappointed to see that he wasn't very "unique" on paper. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying it so far.
Hey, he's an icon. He is what he is.
Cheers,
Cam
Stupid Chosen of Mystra template....
Haha well that template (and other additional abilities) sure does boost El to a remarkable 39 CR. But you can't really blame it on that.. there are definitely a lot of chars in the Forgotten Realm with more combined lvls than 27... El, Halaster, Simbul, Ssazz Tam (Sp?), etc.
It's a very different world i guess; their feats don't seem as remarkable, but they have higher lvls. I guess 1 lvl in DL tends to represent more power than 1 lvl in FR. Also seems like the campaigns have different visions in mind. In the FR game, the iconic figures arent really meant to be challenged; the PC characters can be powerful true, but these figures can keep the PCs in check so they don't get too full of themselves (no matter how big you are there are still bigger fishes out there) . In DL, the PCs are given the chance to become the movers and shakers; where they characters become the star of the show so to speak. They offer a very different game play experience; whatever floats your boat as a gamer/DM I suppose :P.
In Dragonlance, a character with Epic levels stands out, as he or she should. That person would be of tremendous power and stature, and capable of shaking things up a bit. It's the Sauron, or Gandalf of the respective world. There shouldn't be too many of them scattered about. I think that it's a case of poor writing on the part of Mr. Greenwood, and that's a shame. Now every campaign world has something to aspire to, but never reach. Comparative competition is fun, but it's all been taken away by the fact that the Forgotten Realms's characters blow away those of any other world. It also encourages power gaming when playing in that setting, which requires minimal creativity.
What Raistlin accomplished, and then reversed, was something that would be tremendous on any planet. His levels only take away from his accomplishments because there's a fist-full of characters in Faerun who could technically accomplish the same task in his or her sleep. While this is not a statement of disappointment (as he's still very powerful, and the book itself is tremendous), it's a vocalization of what many Dragonlance fans were mildly afraid of.
What Raistlin accomplished, and then reversed, was something that would be tremendous on any planet. His levels only take away from his accomplishments because there's a fist-full of characters in Faerun who could technically accomplish the same task in his or her sleep. While this is not a statement of disappointment (as he's still very powerful, and the book itself is tremendous), it's a vocalization of what many Dragonlance fans were mildly afraid of.
I think many gamers look at the things Raistlin accomplished in terms of what would any character need to be capable of to replicate those events. Which translates to what levels and classes etc. would justify what he was able to do.
Of all his accomplishments, I think the main argument comes down to what your belief is about things like the true power level of dieties in the game world. In my opinion, all other game worlds aside, but keeping in mind official sources on the different CR's of greater gods and the like, I have a level range in mind that Raistlin must have been in order to challenge Takhisis, and that's a really high number, just based on the DC that I would think needed to power the epic spells required to even scratch her, and the abilities needed to withstand the forces of the Abyss.
It would most definitely be higher than whatever Eliminster is stated out as or any other forgotten realms character. Regardless of the relative power level of the DL setting, no other character in any setting, either in published gaming source or in a novel, that I know of has challenged a greater god or goddess on their own plane and been successful in that challenge. There have been humans ascend to godhood in FR, but never through the kind of pure display of force that Raistlin put forth in his ascendency.
It's already been decided upon obviously, but I think that keeping Raistlin within some level range relative to other DL characters is a mistake, he may not be unique exactly, as I would give Fisty a fairly close second, but certainly I wouldn't feel obligated to have them just be at the high end of a range including other characters instead of a significant leap above all others.
I'm strongly leaning towards buying the book, even though I don't game in DL (or at least not often), but just as a fan of the setting, so I hope my comments aren't taken as criticism, just an opinion of one fan.
In my opinion, all other game worlds aside, but keeping in mind official sources on the different CR's of greater gods and the like, I have a level range in mind that Raistlin must have been in order to challenge Takhisis, and that's a really high number, just based on the DC that I would think needed to power the epic spells required to even scratch her, and the abilities needed to withstand the forces of the Abyss... so I hope my comments aren't taken as criticism, just an opinion of one fan.
I don't think that'll be a problem Barmoz
It was well written and none confrontational. I'm sure there are a lot here who also feel the way you do (raises own hand). Oh well...guess theres always the option of just playing it your way... we dont have to follow the book after all.so I hope my comments aren't taken as criticism, just an opinion of one fan.
Believe me, your concern was shared by the designers. How do you model a character to challenge the gods? (Especially when the gods aren't statted, and rather pointedly so?) This is a darn tough problem for a d20 designer.
Personally, I think the final result was a great job - but intelligent people can disagree about this sort of thing. Well expressed and friendly criticism and disagreement is welcomed and encouraged.
I think many gamers look at the things Raistlin accomplished in terms of what would any character need to be capable of to replicate those events. Which translates to what levels and classes etc. would justify what he was able to do.
...
It would most definitely be higher than whatever Eliminster is stated out as or any other forgotten realms character. Regardless of the relative power level of the DL setting, no other character in any setting, either in published gaming source or in a novel, that I know of has challenged a greater god or goddess on their own plane and been successful in that challenge. There have been humans ascend to godhood in FR, but never through the kind of pure display of force that Raistlin put forth in his ascendency.
That's just the thing, Raistlin did not challenge/fight/kill Takhisis on her home plane, the Abyss. He specifically drew her to Krynn where she would be in a weakened state and he could then have an advantage in his fight to slay and usurp her power.
In light of this, I think his stats as presented in Legends is just about right, not too high, not too low.
That's just the thing, Raistlin did not challenge/fight/kill Takhisis on her home plane, the Abyss. He specifically drew her to Krynn where she would be in a weakened state and he could then have an advantage in his fight to slay and usurp her power.
In light of this, I think his stats as presented in Legends is just about right, not too high, not too low.
My problem with that argument is that in my mind, avoiding being obliterated on her home plane before leading her out, is almost as good an indicator of his level. I am speaking in game terms alone, because I think of it as his CR must have been close enough to hers to survive whatever she could throw at him, before leading her back to the mortal realm. Say he went from a 5-8 CR disadvantage in the abyss to even or advantaged outside of it. A bigger difference than that and he never would have made it out.
There really is no rule based example of how the mechanics worked, so it's all just one opinion versus another, now we have an official ruling and that's fine with me. I personally wanted a Raistlin that was at least 50, and in my mind, that's what I'll continue to have, but it doesn't detract anything from the official version, and the chances of him ever appearing in any of my games is slim to none, so it's just an academic discussion for me anyway.
I am speaking in game terms alone, because I think of it as his CR must have been close enough to hers to survive whatever she could throw at him, before leading her back to the mortal realm.
Takhisis doesn't actually have a CR, so the discussion can't even get up to that point. What Raistlin did was entirely story-driven, unique, and circumstantial, and what's more important is that he didn't actually do it (other than in an alternate timeline which was corrected) so the version I created has the potential to accomplish extraordinary feats of singular epic-level stature yet might still almost be killed in one blow by Kharas.
Cheers,
Cam
Takhisis doesn't actually have a CR, so the discussion can't even get up to that point.
I completely agree, and that gets back to my point in my first post, which is that it all comes down to what you believe is the relative power level of dieties. I am of the opinion that they should be incredibly powerful, which to me means in the CR 50+ range, and not a target for a party or even more so a character. However, since the novels tell the story that Raistlin did indeed challenge a diety and would have won if not for his own actions, I am left with the belief that Raistlin was in a similiar CR range.
I appreciate the welcome I recieved here, I find the DL boards to be considerably more welcoming of lurkers posting than other boards, and that means a great deal to me. However, I am done posting on this topic, because it really serves no purpose, the book is out, the stats are decided, and agree or disagree, it all comes down to what a particular DM wants for their campaign. I also don't want the overall appeal of the book to be decided on an opinion of Raistlin's stats. I think that is an injustice to all of the work that went into it because the setting and almost every single gaming session is far far removed from Raistlin's stat block.
I just thought that Raistlin would be maxed out in the Black Robe PrC, giving him 30 levels (CR 31). Maybe I'm nuts.
It should also be noted that characters of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting are old. Raistlin accomplished 27 levels of magical goodness in a short time span. Who's to say that after having defeated Takhisis, or should he have lived another 30 years that he wouldn't have been a level 50 dude?
True enough. Elminster of FR fame has 35 character levels but he's over 1,000 years old. Raistlin, in just 3 decades of life (even counting his time spent in the past) managed 27 levels. Not too shabby. :D
I just thought that Raistlin would be maxed out in the Black Robe PrC, giving him 30 levels (CR 31). Maybe I'm nuts.
*** Minor Raistlin spoilers ***
The thinking, I believe, in him having only (!) 7 levels of the Black Robe PrC was that he got caught up in doing his own thing after a while. He abandoned the Orders, or at least pointedly ignored them, in favor of his own research. I think this is reflected well by his levels of loremaster and archmage.
The thinking, I believe, in him having only (!) 7 levels of the Black Robe PrC was that he got caught up in doing his own thing after a while. He abandoned the Orders, or at least pointedly ignored them, in favor of his own research. I think this is reflected well by his levels of loremaster and archmage.
This is correct. And, it's oddly enough what I said in the other thread before I read this one. Great minds think alike - or work together often, one of the two.
Also, the statistics for the Twins, Crysania, and Tas are all approximately as those characters were in War of the Twins, prior to the Dwarfgate Wars. Tas doesn't have his hoopak, for example, since he lost it and didn't have it after he got out of the Abyss.
Cheers,
Cam
I'm curious tho, does every wizard in the upper level range have to have levels in archmage?
It's not just Dragonlance either, it seems like everywhere i look, if a wizard has more than 15 levels he also has levels of archmage.
Is it a requirement?
I'm curious tho, does every wizard in the upper level range have to have levels in archmage?
It's not just Dragonlance either, it seems like everywhere i look, if a wizard has more than 15 levels he also has levels of archmage.
Is it a requirement?
The arch mage class has abilities that are appealing not just from a min / max perspective, but from a roleplaying perspective as well. The prc carries with it a level of "prestige" (no pun intended), learning high arcana, gaining a more masterful control over your wizardly skills, that just feels right for many people's vision of characters both player and non-player. Just by definition, arch-mage denotes a higher class of mage, something almost any high level mage would aspire towards.
P.S. Everyone should buy this book.
The arch mage class has abilities that are appealing not just from a min / max perspective, but from a roleplaying perspective as well. The prc carries with it a level of "prestige" (no pun intended), learning high arcana, gaining a more masterful control over your wizardly skills, that just feels right for many people's vision of characters both player and non-player. Just by definition, arch-mage denotes a higher class of mage, something almost any high level mage would aspire towards.
Yeah, I see where the abilities of the Archmage Prc gives a mage greater flexablity in what he/she can do, but it doesn't seem right to me to give up valuable high level spell slots for some of those abilites. More available spells is almost always better in my opinion.
Even if it does denote a higher class of mage. I greatly prefer an alternate Prc build of Archmage that I found somewhere (don't remember)
Another neat point would be to wonder what level/powers Raistlin achieved after fighting off the minions of the Abyss?
That's a lot of tanar'ri or whatever they're called. Just a thought.It basiclly remains unchanged as far as the abilities go. What is different is that when you gain a level of Archmage, you do not get a +1 to caster level, the High Arcana abilities don't cost a spell slot.
Any ideas about it being unbalanced/overpowered/underpowered etc., i never really got a chance to test it out.
If not above can anyone tell me if he has a bunch of magical items or what... How is he equiped?
I give it a resounding yes.
List some pros and cons, as well as what you hope to see in the future, possibly regarding this character specifically.
Cons: No Master of Past and Present explanation and nothing on the bloodstone.
Cons: No Master of Past and Present explanation
He's Raistlin and Fistandantilus. What else did you think it meant?
and nothing on the bloodstone.
Yeah, that might show up in a web enhancement if you're lucky and ask nicely.
Cheers,
Cam
Yeah, that might show up in a web enhancement if you're lucky and ask nicely.
Cheers,
Cam
Cam can we please have the bloodstone in the form of a web enhancement, pretty please with skittles on top?
Cam can we please have the bloodstone in the form of a web enhancement, pretty please with skittles on top?
Would you believe I have only recently finished that bag of Skittles?
Cheers,
Cam
didn't think so /sigh
Would you believe I have only recently finished that bag of Skittles?
Cheers,
Cam
That's a better shelflife than I would have guessed
The Bloodstone is definitely missed.
Cam, may we (at least) have a sneak peek of the Bloodstone's powers/statistics/etc.? I'm sure you've considered it, and perhaps it was simply overlooked in Raistlin's write-up. Either way, we appreciate your brilliance and would thoroughly enjoy to have the Bloodstone in black and white to supplement it's rightful owner. :D
Did I ask politely enough? Okay fine...here's another bag of Skittles.
Cam, may we (at least) have a sneak peek of the Bloodstone's powers/statistics/etc.? I'm sure you've considered it, and perhaps it was simply overlooked in Raistlin's write-up. Either way, we appreciate your brilliance and would thoroughly enjoy to have the Bloodstone in black and white to supplement it's rightful owner. :D
I can't do that, sorry. This sort of thing isn't up to me!
Cheers,
Cam
Is it Raistlin, Fistandantilus or Both???
If so, WHO is Raistlin:
The real Raistlin (born from Rosamun, freaky child, manipulating his brother)
Fistandantilus ( the Creepy Lich)
Both (Raistlin and Fistandantilus fused together)
A new person born from the two???
Raistlin was once himself. During his Test, Fistandantilus (Master of Past) possessed him, ensuring his survival. After the War of the Lance, Raistlin entered the Tower of Palanthas, lifting the curse, fullfilling the Master of Present. He then travelled back in time to defeat Fistandantilus, which no one had done before, and syphoned his soul. While he proceeded to endure the same events as Fistandantilus, he succeeded where the lich had failed. Thus, he was both Master of Past and Present.
Therefore, Raistlin was once his own, then both, than a super version of his own power with Fistandantilus's power, but not both souls. Once he decided to rest, he became a spirit connected with the stream of time and a counselor to the Gods.
Maybe I'm nuts, but this is basically how I figure it out in my head. There's a lot more going on than I put here, but it works for me.
thanx
messy
people keep mentioning the "war mage" prestige class. i'm not familiar with this class. can anyone tell me what book it's from?
The Age of Mortals campaign sourcebook, located at http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4001.aspx
Cheers,
Cam
Cam, you forgot to mention the errata in the Towers of High Sorcery.
So I did. Well, that's apparently why you're here.
Cheers,
Cam
Anything to help you out.
wiz10/high sorcery10/war mage 5
considering him at the end of legends
We only have a few more months to wait for Raistlin's stats to come out, hopefully by New Years?
/FM: Hello. I was doing some googling and came across this forum in regards to Raistlan. I've searched high and low for some statistics for said character so that I could attempt to make decent stats for MEGS (DC Heroes RPG/Blood of Heroes RPG) but have had little luck. All the official publications have been lame to say the least. This is especially true when comparing those stats with Raistlan when he took on Takisis in the final book.
Is there anyone here who might have some decent stats for this wonderful character in say D20 or perhaps for the more rounded players/Game Masters on this list, another game so that I might use it as a template alongside copies of the DL books into another system?
Any help is greatly appreciated in advance.
Sincerely,
Frank Murdock
Elminster is suppose to be CR39 as well. In the Avatar trilogy though, Elminster had trouble with an Avatar of Bane. Raistlin defeated Takhisis not as an Avatar (or Aspect) but while she was in her true form upon Krynn.
Wasn't that on the Abyss (or at least the DL version of it)
Wasn't that on the Abyss (or at least the DL version of it)
Even that was an aspect of Takhisis, kinda like an avatar but not quite.
One more question then (it has been at least 12 years since I read it), didn't he enter the abyss at zhaman/skullcap?
Si, señor.
The wierd thing here is that he enters in the past but emerges in the "present" in Palanthas. That part has always thrown me for a loop. Darn temporal mechanics. I knew I should have paid more attention in that class on Galifray. I might have even gotten my own TARDIS at the end.
a article about Raistlin VS. Elminster is released.
Does someone read this article yet?
I read in the last Dragon-magazine, that this month in the Dungeon-magazine
a article about Raistlin VS. Elminster is released.
Does someone read this article yet?
I wrote it!
Ed Greenwood and Margaret Weis each told me how their wizard would beat the other one, and Paizo had me act as the ring leader, so to speak. Both Elminster fans and Raistlin fans should get some laughs out of the article, and there's even some love for fans of another world's pre-eminent wizard.
Cheers,
Cam
I wrote it!
Ed Greenwood and Margaret Weis each told me how their wizard would beat the other one, and Paizo had me act as the ring leader, so to speak. Both Elminster fans and Raistlin fans should get some laughs out of the article, and there's even some love for fans of another world's pre-eminent wizard.
Cheers,
Cam
Which issue is that going to be in, Cam?
Which issue is that going to be in, Cam?
The final issue of Dragon, #359.
Cheers,
Cam
The final issue of Dragon, #359.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah, OK, thanks. Leo said it was going to be in "Dungeon". I'll be sure the check that issue out.
and there's even some love for fans of another world's pre-eminent wizard.
Yeah, I think that was the best part of the article.
On another note, I found some stats for Raistlin. Can anyone tell me if these look close enough to what we read about at the end of LEGENDS? It's been years since I played AD&D and the rules have changed since; hence my comprehension of the new system is vague at best. Anyways, here is the adress for what I found:
http://www.dl3e.com/fan/rules/character/11393.aspx
Thanks in advance. /FM:
Wow, I feel like a real ******* now. Sorry, I guess I'm just a little too passionate (not to mention obsessive-compulsive) about correct spelling when it comes to my favorite characters. I can barely stand it when people add an extra "s" on Tas.
/FM: hahaha I'm the same way when I'm reading WUs on the DCHeroes/MEGS group on Yahoo. Now if I would only post my own WU, eh? *grin*
I don't have a link to the card with me at the moment but that should have the "official" stats for him.
And where do you get that garbage about mortal magic not affecting gods? Yeah, most ways Takhisis would kill Raistlin, but the only protection gods have against ANY magic is spell resistance. Someone needs to tell the people who actually write the adventures that gods can't be killed, because I could have sworn that a short time ago, Dungeon had an adventure where you were supposed to kill a god.
Basically, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. And Raistlin has published stats, try looking in War of the Lance, Dragons of Autumn, Dragons of Spring, I believe, and Legends of the Twins. Surprising number of stat blocks for someone who was never stated, huh?
Plus, in the legends series, it is mentioned that Raistlin's health and vigor improve after his battle with Fistandantinulius.
Plus, in the legends series, it is mentioned that Raistlin's health and vigor improve after his battle with Fistandantinulius.
True, when he used the bloodstone on him
how bout max all HE BECAME A FREAKING GOD AND DESETROYED THE WHOLE F-KING PLANET OR DID YOU FORGET!!!!!!!!!