Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 joboo Jun 21, 2005 10:00:43	I have a question that relates to the living vortices. Who discovered them? Does anyone know how or when they were created? I plan to detail these forces for my own campaign. I know that information on them is limiting.
#2 dawnstealer Jun 21, 2005 10:24:37	Think it's been covered in other threads, but the short answer is this: no one knows, although there's no shortage of people on these boards that will pipe in with their own theories. Like me. In my opinion, the vortices were created when Rajaat made his champions using the artifact Dark Lens and Pristine Tower (and his own potent magic). They steal power from all the elemental planes at once, as well as the Gray. The Elemental Lords aren't too happy about this, but there is little they can do about it.
#3 Sysane Jun 21, 2005 10:54:34	Mine is that they were a super rhulisti life-shaped creation that were to be used as a unlimited power source or a weapon in the Blue Age.
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2005 11:05:37	I came up with the same/similar idea as sysane on this one (great minds!): the living vortices are life-shaped beings created in response (or maybe precipitating) to the wars between the life-shapers and nature-benders and their fire cleric allies way back in the day. When Rajaat created his champions he created life-shaped vortices to grant them all cleric-empowering abilities (maybe there was originally only one living vortex the life-shapers used. maybe the fire clerics allied with the nature-benders in response to this perversion of the natural order. maybe the so-called "nature-benders" were actuaally the good guys with their clerical allies: all the elements were opposed to the living vortex abominations of the life-shapers, but only fire was fiery enough [heh] to actually do something about it. history's written by the victors and all, and maybe the nature-benders really weren't the evil guys they're made out to be). Yeah, so my take is that Rajaat used life-shaping techniques to create living vortices for his champs, and the living vortices use a connection through the dark lens to siphon power from all planes at once to empower those who use them (ie templars through the SMs). Of course most people just subscribe to the idea that the living vortices were attracted to the champs at the time that borys "made" them all SMs . . . but i think that's just kinda uninspired. I like the idea of templar-empowering champs that lynn abbey put forth. the end answer? decide what works best with your iteration of dark sun. I have my answer, sysane has his, and everyone else has their own opinion. just work with what you prefer. we can all offer suggestions, but it's up to you for the final answer. nick
#5 Sysane Jun 21, 2005 11:18:06	Of course most people just subscribe to the idea that the living vortices were attracted to the champs at the time that borys "made" them all SMs . . . but i think that's just kinda uninspired. I like the idea of templar-empowering champs that lynn abbey put forth. I subscirbe that Rajaat knew of the existing (left over from the Blue Age) LVs and attached them to his chosen 15 when he made them his Champions as well.
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2005 11:37:30	a possible alternate way of thinking about it is as follows. it might get kinda convoluted so sorry in advance. each "living vortex" attached to a SM is actually just spun off from a central living vortex. there exists a single metaphysical creature that touches upon all reality and all planes simultaneously. like a huge hurricane that sans all reality. eddies sometimes "spin off" from this central hurricane, and these relaively tiny storms are the living vortices that the SMs use to empower their templarates. the main, central living vortex hurricane could be the main disastrous creation of the blue age life-shaping masters, and rajaat managed to perfect a process to cultivate the eddy storms to attach to his students. maybe the central hurricane eventually "died" after a fashion, and the death of this colossol metaphysical creature had something to do with the creation of the gray and the metaphysical closing-off from the outer planes and other associated phenomenae. if you want to look at it this way, maybe the rhulisti actually created their own god, which in turn gave "birth" to the living vortices. it's all an abomination though, which not only ****** off the inner planar elemental lords and their ilk, but also really offended the powers that be in the outer planes, which then acted to isolate the contaminating influence of the rhulisti, explaining the exceptionally isolated nature of athas and its environs. nick
#7 Sysane Jun 21, 2005 11:43:14	Could be that the LVs were created to power the Pristine Tower when it was used to destory the Brown Tide and turned the sun from blue to yellow. Just throwing out some other random ideas.
#8 joboo Jun 22, 2005 8:15:01	Like everyone else I have my own theories on the living vortices and how they affect Athas, I just thought that maybe there was some generally accepted tidbits. Like who discovered the living vortices, Rajaat or Borys? I guess that is my main question.
#9 Sysane Jun 22, 2005 8:20:25	Like everyone else I have my own theories on the living vortices and how they affect Athas, I just thought that maybe there was some generally accepted tidbits. Like who discovered the living vortices, Rajaat or Borys? I guess that is my main question. Canon wise, I'd say that Dregoth is the only being that actually realizes they exist. DS material paints the picture that the other SKs aren't even aware of the LVs existence. Even though its not stated I have a hard time thinking that Rajaat wasn't aware of them.
#10 joboo Jun 22, 2005 8:34:41	So it was Rajaat that would of attached the living vortices to the Champions? Who gave the champions the ability to grant spells? I am really confused, I thought Rajaat created the champions for the cleansing wars. Then Borys found a way to have the champions grant spells to templars. I hope someone can clarify this for me.
#11 Sysane Jun 22, 2005 8:42:33	So it was Rajaat that would of attached the living vortices to the Champions? Who gave the champions the ability to grant spells? I am really confused, I thought Rajaat created the champions for the cleansing wars. Then Borys found a way to have the champions grant spells to templars. I hope someone can clarify this for me. Canon states that when Borys brought the Champions to the first level of Dragonhood, the LVs were bound to them as a by-product/accident, not by design
#12 joboo Jun 22, 2005 8:51:59	Not everyone that advances as a first level Dragon becomes accidentally attached to the living vortices. Could this have happened because they were champions and advanced beings?
#13 kalthandrix Jun 22, 2005 8:53:19	Not everyone that advances as a first level Dragon becomes accidentally attached to the living vortices. Could this have happened because they were champions and advanced beings? I think it was due to Borys using the Pristine Tower to enact the transformation.
#14 joboo Jun 22, 2005 9:08:49	I think it was due to Borys using the Pristine Tower to enact the transformation. Interesting, does that mean that each champion used the pristine tower to begin their transformations as Dragons? Or was it just Borys that used the tower to speed up his tranformation?
#15 dracochapel Jun 22, 2005 9:15:07	Canon states that when Borys brought the Champions to the first level of Dragonhood, the LVs were bound to them as a by-product/accident, not by design Canon stats that With the aid of a magical artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys tied the Sorcerer-Kings together by connecting them to all the elemental planes. They became magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be accessed. This allowed the Sorcerer-Kings to imbue their templars with priestly spells, though they couldnt use priestly magic themselves In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosis spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The S-K's are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists. With the passage of centuries, the living vortices have become extinct. Therefore, no future dragons will gain the ability to transfer elemental magic to templars. The original s-k's will take that privilege with them to their graves. Nothing in canon states that borys A. made them first level dragons (at best he TAUGHT them how to become dragons - possibly from dregoth, the most advanced natural dragon) B. The LVs werent an accident/design. They were a byproduct.something the sks were - and remain - unaware of. D&P is probably what the SK's think - that borys made them the conduits of elemental power (which was true from a certain point of view). whereas they were in fact connected to the LV's when they started on the process to become full dragons. The problem is that those fifteen were champions first, SK's second and dragons third. The rules in DK dont work for them because they are champions who became dragons.
#16 Sysane Jun 22, 2005 10:35:13	Nothing in canon states that borys A. made them first level dragons (at best he TAUGHT them how to become dragons - possibly from dregoth, the most advanced natural dragon) B. The LVs werent an accident/design. They were a byproduct.something the sks were - and remain - unaware of. From the offical DS time line: -Desest's Vengeance Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells. From this statement it would appear that Borys used to the Dark Lens to bring the Champions to the first level of the dragon metamorphosis. Now, a person could split hairs and state that being made into a SK and dragon are two entirely different things. However, I think its up to individual interpretation at that point. In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosis spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The S-K's are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists. From this, it pointedly states that the SK's don't realize that the LVs exist and that they were "attracted" to them during their first step of the metamorphosis. It would seem that this bonding of the LV to a SK was unintentional and hence a by-product of the first metamorphosis. From canon we can assume that Dregoth, and to a lesser extent, Borys, are the only ones that know of the LVs.
#17 Sysane Jun 22, 2005 10:54:14	Not everyone that advances as a first level Dragon becomes accidentally attached to the living vortices. Could this have happened because they were champions and advanced beings? At the time the Champions were brought to the first level of Dragonhood, there were living LVs in existance. How many remains unknown. From the time of the SK's first metamorphosis to the present, the remaining unbound LVs died off for some unknown reason. So, if anyone were to become a first level dragon in the present, their are no unbound LVs to attract.
#18 kalthandrix Jun 22, 2005 13:40:23	At the time the Champions were brought to the first level of Dragonhood, there were living LVs in existance. How many remains unknown. From the time of the SK's first metamorphosis to the present, the remaining unbound LVs died off for some unknown reason. So, if anyone were to become a first level dragon in the present, their are no unbound LVs to attract. It would stand to reason, that through the use of epic spells, that one could 1) create another LV or 2) maybe create a link with one still alive. Any thoughts on that?
#19 Sysane Jun 22, 2005 13:46:52	It would stand to reason, that through the use of epic spells, that one could 1) create another LV or 2) maybe create a link with one still alive. Any thoughts on that? Thats up to the individual DM and their campaign. I myself would think it almost near impossible to recreate them. We're taking about near god like creatures with the power to channel and funnel devine energy from the inner planes. I think its a more viable option to try and attach and bond with one of the "freed" LVs caused by the deaths of several SKs.
#20 ruhl-than_sage Jun 22, 2005 15:03:02	Personally if such a thing were to happen in my game it would require the collaboration of: 4 Elemental lords (one of each type), to connect the LV to the various planes and a life-shaping master (the likes of which could only be found amoungst the ancient halflings of the Blue Age) with a hoard of assistants.
#21 joboo Jun 22, 2005 21:41:07	Thats funny that you would call the LVs "near gods", in my own campaign they are the dead gods (actually a by product) of the green age. My green age gods were no more than powerful spirits that would not be forgotten, that made pacts with the elemental lords. These pacts gave them permanent connection to the elemental planes. What makes them ungod like is that they couldn't use the energy but could only grant it to their followers. Until they got killed by Rajaat. Back to the topic. Could it be that the LV's were drawn to the champions because they were both champions and begining the dragon tranformation? I just think that the combination of both got the attention of the living vortices. Perhaps they knew that they would perish if they didn't attach to these powerful beings. Ah, I give up!