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Elf ranger buys inn

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2005 3:37:38 Okay, my characters do some strage things sometimes.
I'm dm'ing a campaign set in Karameikos, the year 1012 AC - Although I dont use many of the things described in WOTI. The only major campaign event that my players know of is the conquest of Alfheim by the shadow elves.

Anyway, after finding a particulary large pile of coins, the elf ranger Serelia decided to buy an inn in Penhaligon. I decided a medium sized, 3 story inn would cost 2500 royals - a little low now that i researched prices a bit, but an adventure could be set around the reason for the innkeeper wanting to sell the inn.

Anyway, thats not the problem. The inn has 30 beds and a stable with 13 stalls, and the income per month for such an inn could be as high as 1000 gp according to the prices in the player's handbook (stabling+avarage lodging+ meals).

Other expenditures include :

1. Staff - the inn has 1 innkeeper that runs the place, 2 assitant inkeepers, serving maids, cleaners, guards, cooks and their assitants, and stable boys.
2. Taxes - the inn must pay 25% income tax and 10% sales tax.
3. Maintaining the Inn - this costs 1/3 the income.
4. 1000 gp is the maximum income in a month when every room and stall is taken, plus some drinks and parties are thrown at the bar downstairs. Most months would earn 500 gp. May be more if the character actively does stuff - she stuffed a basilisk's head and displayed it on the wall. May be less is the situation is dire - no traders from darokin in winter, wars, and so on.

So if I take an average month (500gp), the character earns about 100 royals per month. This would make the original investment pay back in two years or so. Does this make any sense ? I dont want to make any errors now, in case the crazed elf ranger decides to buy more bussinesses. I would like to hear other DM's opinions about this.
#2
kheldren
Jun 22, 2005 4:44:23 Rent? - there is a very good chance that they will have bought the leasehold not the freehold on the inn. The Business is theirs (and proably the right for no-one else to open another inn next door) but the land is almost certainly owned by the local overlord...
Other Taxes - there is probably a local tax in addition to the national tax... This may not be in coin but in service - see the Dominion Economics rules in the Companion set (or Bruce Heard's re-writes in Dragon) for what subjects owe their Lord.
Theft - as it says.
Protection money - which is unlikely to stop the thefts.
Repairs - after bar fights etc.

Sounds like you (and your player) are in for an interesting time... :D
#3
thorf
Jun 22, 2005 6:26:15 Another problem I was thinking about is worker loyalty. Maybe the workers are loyal to the old owner, and resent the PC for buying him out. Maybe they don't care, but see an opportunity to line their own pockets a little more under the new management - with or without permission from said management.

In short, the staff should have a large influence on the success or failure of the institution, and they have a direct bearing on what the PC gets out of it. Is she an outsider? If so, she may find that her hands are tied, because it may be very difficult to find any leverage against the current staff if they decide to dislike or work against her. And if she is the standard adventurer type, the staff might well resent the way she keeps running off while they do all the hard work. It wouldn't be at all surprising if the staff gave themselves a little bonus pay whenever the PC left town.

Anyway, the key point is that your PC needs to have a staff that trusts and likes her, and that she can trust in return. Sounds like some great roleplaying opportunities!
#4
agathokles
Jun 22, 2005 6:33:56
Other Taxes - there is probably a local tax in addition to the national tax... This may not be in coin but in service - see the Dominion Economics rules in the Companion set (or Bruce Heard's re-writes in Dragon) for what subjects owe their Lord.

Yes, specifically in Karameikos the income tax is raised to 50% in the fiefs, IIRC. Since Penhaligon is a fief, the character should pay the increased taxes.

Also the protection racket is a good suggestion -- let the Veiled Society ask for another 15% of the income (or more, they'll squeeze as much as possible). If the character doesn't comply, they'll burn down the inn.

BTW, 2500 for a 3-story building is really too low -- I'd assume that the inn is a wood building (rather than stone) and has some extra problem (e.g., monsters in the basement, or is not in prime conditions).

Last, while the full capacity of the inn may be exploited during the trade season, for most of the year only a few beds will go empty, especially if there are other inns in Penhaligon that have lower prices or better service.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2005 7:21:54 As for the price : I use the OD&D blue box prices. A stone building with three stories and a wood stable, similar to the "typical small inn" in the karameikos gazeteer but with another story, should cost about 7000 royals, or about 2800 inside a city (40% of the listed price in an urban area, 20% for wooden buildings). So the difference isn't that bad. Still, a few untold problems with the inn might pop up.

I have a translated version of the gazetter, which isn't that clear about the added income tax in fiefs, so thanks for clearing that up for me. Penhaligon is frequently attacked by humanoids and the added tax is entirely justified.

In my campaign Penhaligon is heavily patrolled by Lady Arteris' troops. There are no organized thief guilds there, only a few gangs. So the theft scenario seems more appropriate than the protection racket scenario.

Lots of thanks for the disloyal staff idea. It seems that combining it with the theft or protection ideas can make an exciting urban adventure inside penhaligon, maybe even exposing an attempt by an organized guild to gain power.

I wonder what other income sources (other than adventuring) my players will try next. I think another player wants to open up a smithy (he is a pretty capable weaponsmith)... no idea how that will work.
#6
agathokles
Jun 22, 2005 8:24:48
As for the price : I use the OD&D blue box prices. A stone building with three stories and a wood stable, similar to the "typical small inn" in the karameikos gazeteer but with another story, should cost about 7000 royals, or about 2800 inside a city (40% of the listed price in an urban area, 20% for wooden buildings). So the difference isn't that bad. Still, a few untold problems with the inn might pop up.

Uhm, those are construction costs -- but buying inside a town (especially a walled one) would be more costly, IMO (basically, the figures in the Expert Set account for cheaper workforce and materials, but not for the higher cost of the real estate due to the limited offer).

Lots of thanks for the disloyal staff idea. It seems that combining it with the theft or protection ideas can make an exciting urban adventure inside penhaligon, maybe even exposing an attempt by an organized guild to gain power.

Yes. Even if there are currently no organized guilds in Penhaligon, either the Veiled Society or the Iron Ring may at some point decide to expand their holdings and send a number of operatives in the town.

I wonder what other income sources (other than adventuring) my players will try next. I think another player wants to open up a smithy (he is a pretty capable weaponsmith)... no idea how that will work.

A smithy takes time to operate, and while the smith can produce valuable items, he still needs to find customers (e.g., maybe your PC smith is able to build costly two-handed swords, but he will still spend most of the time creating lower-cost items -- e.g., axe blades or arrow points or even horseshoes -- since only few people buy two-handed swords).
#7
havard
Jun 22, 2005 11:27:42 I think this sounds really cool!

A few ways to handle this (smithy and Inn):

* Calculate costs for everything, income, modifiers for skill bonuses etc. If you are using OD&D, perhaps you can base it off the Trading rules found in the Darokin and Minrothad Gaz's.

* Rules light: Tell the guy he has the thing set up, but that you dont want to deal with all the rules and stuff. Let him know how much money he makes a year, and provide some bonuses to this number if he makes some investments, or takes other actions to improve the inn, and subtract from the number of GP of income if something bad happens to the Inn. But dont take it away from him. Let him know that the Inn works out fine, but that it is never going to make him rich. He will have to do some adventuring to do that. Perhaps he can hire another bartender to take care of the Inn when he is off adventuring and that he now can supply the party with free rooms and meals whenever they are in town.

Same thing with the Blacksmith. Dont get bogged down in details. Simply let him know that if he has a decent skill in Blacksmithing, he will earn enough perhaps so he wont have to pay for food and lodging when he is in town.

I love the idea of PCs having real jobs. The idea of professional adventurers never really made much sense. Now, they are just ordinary people who occationally take up the sword whenever trouble appears.

And jobs can be a great way to introduce adventure hooks. Perhaps the bartender overhears a plot to kill the mayor. Or a farmer complain about trolls destroying his crops? Perhaps a warrior comes into town and asks the smith to make him a sword so he can kill a dragon. And what if that warrior never returns? Maybe the smith will have to do the job for him, and even rescue the warrior, now taken captive by the dragon?

Håvard
#8
graywolf-elm
Jun 22, 2005 12:13:16 Sounds like the Ranger may also need to hire:

Accountant - Just try to manage ordering food to sell at the inn for meals, pay the cooks, kitchen help, Barkeepers, maids, etc. without one. Also the encounters with the taxmen, good and bad, if there is a disreputable one who can cause trouble for the Inn owner. Someone has to keep the day-to-day finances going, that the PC can't. Does he steal from the proceeds, or his he honest.
This could possibly be combined with the innkeeper postion, but he/she is busy managing the staff, and operations.

Just a thought.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2005 13:41:03 It being Karameikos, and being in the wild northern lands, nothing will, of course, be quite as it seems...

1) The reason he is willing to sell so cheap is that lately business has dried up... merchants are avoiding Penhaligon, because werewolves have been attacking caravans more often than usual. If the PC's take care of the problem, business will grow again, otherwise the new owner starts taking a loss...

2) Perhaps new competition moved into town, and the slower business experienced is due to all of the travelers going to the new inn. Fortunately, if the PC's investigate, they discover than not all is as it seems at the new inn... the owners are Bhuts, and every once in a while, a strange traveler, who will not be missed, disappears. And the next day, there is a very fine "pork" stew on the menu... again, if the PC's clear things up, not only will their business thrive, but they might get the thanks of the local ruler.

3) The staff members are not at all what they seem. The innkeeper — who is seen only at night tending the bar — is a nosferatu, his wife is a werewolf (or lamia or something similar) and handles the day business. One of the stable hands is an escaped flesh golem who looks all-too human. The other is a member of an ancient cult. The serving maids are thieves/assassins, and spies for local bandits. And so forth... and thus, the inn is such a troublesome place that the all-too normal owner wanted to get the heck away!

Just a couple ideas off the top of my head...
#10
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2005 13:47:54
Uhm, those are construction costs -- but buying inside a town (especially a walled one) would be more costly, IMO (basically, the figures in the Expert Set account for cheaper workforce and materials, but not for the higher cost of the real estate due to the limited offer).

Hmm... didn't think about that. Seems logical. What should be the price of the inn, then ?

Penhaligon is a small walled town, a waystop for traders bound to and from Selenica, not a major trading point. In my campaign it is mainly meant to provide a staging area for patrols and small forces that defend the northern King's Road. Therefore, I dont think the inn should cost a lot more than the construction costs. No idea how to choose the price, though.

And what should I do about the player ? Should I simply move along and leave the situation as it is ? or should I try to do a reality change ?

Mystaros : Whoa , those are some pretty good ideas. Unfortunately, my players had enough of hidden enemies in our recent Vampire: The Masquerade campaigns. I'm trying to run a lighter campaign, and that will ruin the mood somewhat - the player DID invest a lot in that inn.

Although now that I think about it, those ideas may be the only way to "fix" the situation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2005 3:37:38	Okay, my characters do some strage things sometimes. I'm dm'ing a campaign set in Karameikos, the year 1012 AC - Although I dont use many of the things described in WOTI. The only major campaign event that my players know of is the conquest of Alfheim by the shadow elves. Anyway, after finding a particulary large pile of coins, the elf ranger Serelia decided to buy an inn in Penhaligon. I decided a medium sized, 3 story inn would cost 2500 royals - a little low now that i researched prices a bit, but an adventure could be set around the reason for the innkeeper wanting to sell the inn. Anyway, thats not the problem. The inn has 30 beds and a stable with 13 stalls, and the income per month for such an inn could be as high as 1000 gp according to the prices in the player's handbook (stabling+avarage lodging+ meals). Other expenditures include : 1. Staff - the inn has 1 innkeeper that runs the place, 2 assitant inkeepers, serving maids, cleaners, guards, cooks and their assitants, and stable boys. 2. Taxes - the inn must pay 25% income tax and 10% sales tax. 3. Maintaining the Inn - this costs 1/3 the income. 4. 1000 gp is the maximum income in a month when every room and stall is taken, plus some drinks and parties are thrown at the bar downstairs. Most months would earn 500 gp. May be more if the character actively does stuff - she stuffed a basilisk's head and displayed it on the wall. May be less is the situation is dire - no traders from darokin in winter, wars, and so on. So if I take an average month (500gp), the character earns about 100 royals per month. This would make the original investment pay back in two years or so. Does this make any sense ? I dont want to make any errors now, in case the crazed elf ranger decides to buy more bussinesses. I would like to hear other DM's opinions about this.
#2 kheldren Jun 22, 2005 4:44:23	Rent? - there is a very good chance that they will have bought the leasehold not the freehold on the inn. The Business is theirs (and proably the right for no-one else to open another inn next door) but the land is almost certainly owned by the local overlord... Other Taxes - there is probably a local tax in addition to the national tax... This may not be in coin but in service - see the Dominion Economics rules in the Companion set (or Bruce Heard's re-writes in Dragon) for what subjects owe their Lord. Theft - as it says. Protection money - which is unlikely to stop the thefts. Repairs - after bar fights etc. Sounds like you (and your player) are in for an interesting time... :D
#3 thorf Jun 22, 2005 6:26:15	Another problem I was thinking about is worker loyalty. Maybe the workers are loyal to the old owner, and resent the PC for buying him out. Maybe they don't care, but see an opportunity to line their own pockets a little more under the new management - with or without permission from said management. In short, the staff should have a large influence on the success or failure of the institution, and they have a direct bearing on what the PC gets out of it. Is she an outsider? If so, she may find that her hands are tied, because it may be very difficult to find any leverage against the current staff if they decide to dislike or work against her. And if she is the standard adventurer type, the staff might well resent the way she keeps running off while they do all the hard work. It wouldn't be at all surprising if the staff gave themselves a little bonus pay whenever the PC left town. Anyway, the key point is that your PC needs to have a staff that trusts and likes her, and that she can trust in return. Sounds like some great roleplaying opportunities!
#4 agathokles Jun 22, 2005 6:33:56	Other Taxes - there is probably a local tax in addition to the national tax... This may not be in coin but in service - see the Dominion Economics rules in the Companion set (or Bruce Heard's re-writes in Dragon) for what subjects owe their Lord. Yes, specifically in Karameikos the income tax is raised to 50% in the fiefs, IIRC. Since Penhaligon is a fief, the character should pay the increased taxes. Also the protection racket is a good suggestion -- let the Veiled Society ask for another 15% of the income (or more, they'll squeeze as much as possible). If the character doesn't comply, they'll burn down the inn. BTW, 2500 for a 3-story building is really too low -- I'd assume that the inn is a wood building (rather than stone) and has some extra problem (e.g., monsters in the basement, or is not in prime conditions). Last, while the full capacity of the inn may be exploited during the trade season, for most of the year only a few beds will go empty, especially if there are other inns in Penhaligon that have lower prices or better service.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2005 7:21:54	As for the price : I use the OD&D blue box prices. A stone building with three stories and a wood stable, similar to the "typical small inn" in the karameikos gazeteer but with another story, should cost about 7000 royals, or about 2800 inside a city (40% of the listed price in an urban area, 20% for wooden buildings). So the difference isn't that bad. Still, a few untold problems with the inn might pop up. I have a translated version of the gazetter, which isn't that clear about the added income tax in fiefs, so thanks for clearing that up for me. Penhaligon is frequently attacked by humanoids and the added tax is entirely justified. In my campaign Penhaligon is heavily patrolled by Lady Arteris' troops. There are no organized thief guilds there, only a few gangs. So the theft scenario seems more appropriate than the protection racket scenario. Lots of thanks for the disloyal staff idea. It seems that combining it with the theft or protection ideas can make an exciting urban adventure inside penhaligon, maybe even exposing an attempt by an organized guild to gain power. I wonder what other income sources (other than adventuring) my players will try next. I think another player wants to open up a smithy (he is a pretty capable weaponsmith)... no idea how that will work.
#6 agathokles Jun 22, 2005 8:24:48	As for the price : I use the OD&D blue box prices. A stone building with three stories and a wood stable, similar to the "typical small inn" in the karameikos gazeteer but with another story, should cost about 7000 royals, or about 2800 inside a city (40% of the listed price in an urban area, 20% for wooden buildings). So the difference isn't that bad. Still, a few untold problems with the inn might pop up. Uhm, those are construction costs -- but buying inside a town (especially a walled one) would be more costly, IMO (basically, the figures in the Expert Set account for cheaper workforce and materials, but not for the higher cost of the real estate due to the limited offer). Lots of thanks for the disloyal staff idea. It seems that combining it with the theft or protection ideas can make an exciting urban adventure inside penhaligon, maybe even exposing an attempt by an organized guild to gain power. Yes. Even if there are currently no organized guilds in Penhaligon, either the Veiled Society or the Iron Ring may at some point decide to expand their holdings and send a number of operatives in the town. I wonder what other income sources (other than adventuring) my players will try next. I think another player wants to open up a smithy (he is a pretty capable weaponsmith)... no idea how that will work. A smithy takes time to operate, and while the smith can produce valuable items, he still needs to find customers (e.g., maybe your PC smith is able to build costly two-handed swords, but he will still spend most of the time creating lower-cost items -- e.g., axe blades or arrow points or even horseshoes -- since only few people buy two-handed swords).
#7 havard Jun 22, 2005 11:27:42	I think this sounds really cool! A few ways to handle this (smithy and Inn): * Calculate costs for everything, income, modifiers for skill bonuses etc. If you are using OD&D, perhaps you can base it off the Trading rules found in the Darokin and Minrothad Gaz's. * Rules light: Tell the guy he has the thing set up, but that you dont want to deal with all the rules and stuff. Let him know how much money he makes a year, and provide some bonuses to this number if he makes some investments, or takes other actions to improve the inn, and subtract from the number of GP of income if something bad happens to the Inn. But dont take it away from him. Let him know that the Inn works out fine, but that it is never going to make him rich. He will have to do some adventuring to do that. Perhaps he can hire another bartender to take care of the Inn when he is off adventuring and that he now can supply the party with free rooms and meals whenever they are in town. Same thing with the Blacksmith. Dont get bogged down in details. Simply let him know that if he has a decent skill in Blacksmithing, he will earn enough perhaps so he wont have to pay for food and lodging when he is in town. I love the idea of PCs having real jobs. The idea of professional adventurers never really made much sense. Now, they are just ordinary people who occationally take up the sword whenever trouble appears. And jobs can be a great way to introduce adventure hooks. Perhaps the bartender overhears a plot to kill the mayor. Or a farmer complain about trolls destroying his crops? Perhaps a warrior comes into town and asks the smith to make him a sword so he can kill a dragon. And what if that warrior never returns? Maybe the smith will have to do the job for him, and even rescue the warrior, now taken captive by the dragon? Håvard
#8 graywolf-elm Jun 22, 2005 12:13:16	Sounds like the Ranger may also need to hire: Accountant - Just try to manage ordering food to sell at the inn for meals, pay the cooks, kitchen help, Barkeepers, maids, etc. without one. Also the encounters with the taxmen, good and bad, if there is a disreputable one who can cause trouble for the Inn owner. Someone has to keep the day-to-day finances going, that the PC can't. Does he steal from the proceeds, or his he honest. This could possibly be combined with the innkeeper postion, but he/she is busy managing the staff, and operations. Just a thought.
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2005 13:41:03	It being Karameikos, and being in the wild northern lands, nothing will, of course, be quite as it seems... 1) The reason he is willing to sell so cheap is that lately business has dried up... merchants are avoiding Penhaligon, because werewolves have been attacking caravans more often than usual. If the PC's take care of the problem, business will grow again, otherwise the new owner starts taking a loss... 2) Perhaps new competition moved into town, and the slower business experienced is due to all of the travelers going to the new inn. Fortunately, if the PC's investigate, they discover than not all is as it seems at the new inn... the owners are Bhuts, and every once in a while, a strange traveler, who will not be missed, disappears. And the next day, there is a very fine "pork" stew on the menu... again, if the PC's clear things up, not only will their business thrive, but they might get the thanks of the local ruler. 3) The staff members are not at all what they seem. The innkeeper — who is seen only at night tending the bar — is a nosferatu, his wife is a werewolf (or lamia or something similar) and handles the day business. One of the stable hands is an escaped flesh golem who looks all-too human. The other is a member of an ancient cult. The serving maids are thieves/assassins, and spies for local bandits. And so forth... and thus, the inn is such a troublesome place that the all-too normal owner wanted to get the heck away! Just a couple ideas off the top of my head...
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2005 13:47:54	Uhm, those are construction costs -- but buying inside a town (especially a walled one) would be more costly, IMO (basically, the figures in the Expert Set account for cheaper workforce and materials, but not for the higher cost of the real estate due to the limited offer). Hmm... didn't think about that. Seems logical. What should be the price of the inn, then ? Penhaligon is a small walled town, a waystop for traders bound to and from Selenica, not a major trading point. In my campaign it is mainly meant to provide a staging area for patrols and small forces that defend the northern King's Road. Therefore, I dont think the inn should cost a lot more than the construction costs. No idea how to choose the price, though. And what should I do about the player ? Should I simply move along and leave the situation as it is ? or should I try to do a reality change ? Mystaros : Whoa , those are some pretty good ideas. Unfortunately, my players had enough of hidden enemies in our recent Vampire: The Masquerade campaigns. I'm trying to run a lighter campaign, and that will ruin the mood somewhat - the player DID invest a lot in that inn. Although now that I think about it, those ideas may be the only way to "fix" the situation.