Ultimately, its up to the individual DM, but what do you feel is the default for DS? Should magic and psionics be treated the same, or are they entirely different from one another? (i.e. does dispel magic work on psionics?)
Thoughts?
you cannot dispel psionic powers with a dispel magic spell..... but arcane magic and psionics seem to be 2 halves of a greater whole..... ie that is what the dragons weild per the novels.
they are seperate but have an underlying connection. at least per the fluff.....
you cannot dispel psionic powers with a dispel magic spell..... but arcane magic and psionics seem to be 2 halves of a greater whole..... ie that is what the dragons weild per the novels.
Thats how I view it as well. Both can be blended together for greater effect as used by ABs.
Basically spells cast be a preserver or a defiler can cancel out psionic effects, but the reverse doesn't hold true. I see this rule as a balancing factor to help explain why it is that people even bother with magic considering the horrible effect it has on the planet (Psionic Enchanments aside). Plus, it has a the effect of making Arcane Casters more appealing to my players. Considering psionics can already match many of the things that spells can, and are more powerfull/versitile in many ways.. I thought Arcane magic needed an edge. If you're going to be hunted and hated for casting spells, when you could just manifest powers instead, there better be something in it for you :D .
still rewriting the psionics system anyway..... it is going to be a bit closer to 2ed but balanced.....
and I am bringing back a system for wildtalents too
Yes psionics and arcane may be two halves of a whole but I buy "The Psionics Are Different" rule.
Yes, Ruhl-Than Sage brings up a good point as to why people would chose to use arcane magic.
I explain this as psionics takes work and time as well as using your body for power while arcane magic takes energy from outside of your body and though defiling one can increase the power without much cost to you.
Yes, I know, it takes time to learn and master magic but psionics takes even more out of one, at least thats the way I see it.
Interesting twist! What do your players say?
So far it hasn't lured anyone in this group in, this the first time any of my current players have played in DS. So they are more interested in psionics (since they've never had the chance to play them before) and a little frieghtened by what I've told them of peoples attitudes toward magic. I am actually very harsh about these things. I mean, seriously, magic is destroying the world, using it can make you a lot of enemies and cause a lot of problems.
But my most expirienced player (also my DM for a FR game), who is playing an Evil Bard/Telepath now (a great combo BTW), says he is probably going to end up learning the defiling arts one way or another.
So far they haven't been exposed to Arcane magic much, only some spells flying around during and right before the rebellion in Tyr, the gruesome aftermath of one of Kalak's defiler's encounter with one of their allies after he fled from the city, and some hints that a crazy noble that they ran into in a village just outside of Urik has been dabbling in the forbidden arts.
Except for the SKs and their defilers, most Arcane spellcasters are virtual ghosts in my game. Afterall if they didn't stay very well hidden they would soon become actual ghosts. My players seem to understand that they would have to stay as well hidden as the NPCs or I wouldn't hesitate to have an appropriate death arranged for them.
I use my own personal varient, 'Arcane Magic is Better Than Psionic'
Basically spells cast be a preserver or a defiler can cancel out psionic effects, but the reverse doesn't hold true. I see this rule as a balancing factor to help explain why it is that people even bother with magic considering the horrible effect it has on the planet (Psionic Enchanments aside). Plus, it has a the effect of making Arcane Casters more appealing to my players. Considering psionics can already match many of the things that spells can, and are more powerfull/versitile in many ways.. I thought Arcane magic needed an edge. If you're going to be hunted and hated for casting spells, when you could just manifest powers instead, there better be something in it for you :D .
Interesting! I may have to steal this idea ;) I'm currently running things using the "Psionics is Related to Magic" variant on athas.org (with the exception that the Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device skills are not interchangable). This is basically due to my opinion that arcane magic is basically a result of extensive research using psionics as a catalyst. In other words, I think Rajaat used his psionic abilities (name the old 2E life draining power or its equivilent) as the basis for his research and after a thousand or so years of tweaking the process developed an entirely new discipline (in the scientific sense of the word discipline, that is). Thus, arcane magic is basically an outgrowth of psionics. That doesn't take divine magic into account, but I'm of the opinion that the elemental powers can pretty much take up any methorical slack required to allow their servents to detect, dispel, etc. psionic effects.
Interesting! I may have to steal this idea ;) I'm currently running things using the "Psionics is Related to Magic" variant on athas.org (with the exception that the Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device skills are not interchangable). This is basically due to my opinion that arcane magic is basically a result of extensive research using psionics as a catalyst. In other words, I think Rajaat used his psionic abilities (name the old 2E life draining power or its equivilent) as the basis for his research and after a thousand or so years of tweaking the process developed an entirely new discipline (in the scientific sense of the word discipline, that is). Thus, arcane magic is basically an outgrowth of psionics. That doesn't take divine magic into account, but I'm of the opinion that the elemental powers can pretty much take up any methorical slack required to allow their servents to detect, dispel, etc. psionic effects.
I posted a simular thought on another thread! I think that the application of arcane magic is directly related to psionics. In many cases, IMO magic and psionics operate in simular ways, though there are areas that one holds superiority over the other.
Jon- I was wondering why is it that Athas.org has the position that psionics are different? The only reason that I ask is, while I think that any application of how psionics and magic interact is workable, IMO the material in the core material kind of points to the strong relation and interaction of magic and psionics.
Jon- I was wondering why is it that Athas.org has the position that psionics are different? The only reason that I ask is, while I think that any application of how psionics and magic interact is workable, IMO the material in the core material kind of points to the strong relation and interaction of magic and psionics.
That discussion was years ago internally. I can only speak for myself at the time being, and I have the opposite view of yours - that psionics and magic are two very different concepts and should be handled as separate forces, psionics being the predominant force on Athas. More people would have developed training in and resistance towards psionics than magic (such as from taking feats that help protect against psionics). The Psionics Are Different rule supports this line of reasoning, but the main point for setting said rule as default is to emphasize the difference between the two concepts. This is also some of the reasoning for not including the sorcerer, since its spontanous spellcasting is quite similar to that of a psion's manifesting.
Jon- I was wondering why is it that Athas.org has the position that psionics are different? The only reason that I ask is, while I think that any application of how psionics and magic interact is workable, IMO the material in the core material kind of points to the strong relation and interaction of magic and psionics.
The core material points to a strong synergy between magic and psionics at high levels. At the lowest levels, magic and psionics are very, very different.
Psionic energy is not life energy, and does not fuel arcane magic. A dragon does not get more energy out of a 15th level psion than he does out of a 15th level fighter.
I differ from the athas.org rules in this respect: I treat magic and psionics as different, except for items. Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device are the same skill. Craft Magic Weapon and Craft Psionic Weapon are the same feat. My rationale for this is twofold:
- I don't think that Wizard/Clerics should have a leg up over Wizard/Psions, and using a single item creation feat tree meets this.
- The process of actually creating the item is the same. Get your raw material, and pump it full of magic/psionic energy day after day
When it comes to the spell effects however, I treat magic and psionics as being quite different. Different source of energy, different kind of energy ... Psions are not just sorcerers with spell points and forced specialization, they weild an entirely different sort of power, and shrugging off an attack on the mindscape is not the same as shrugging of a wizard's spell.
I posted a simular thought on another thread! I think that the application of arcane magic is directly related to psionics. In many cases, IMO magic and psionics operate in simular ways, though there are areas that one holds superiority over the other.
Great minds think alike?
Or maybe you're just broadcasting you're thoughts too loudly. TURN THAT RACKET DOWN! (Actually, I saw your post on the other thread after I posted in this one, but I forgot to come over here and edit
)Great minds think alike?
(Actually, I saw your post on the other thread after I posted in this one, but I forgot to come over here and edit
I HAVE been working on this whole mind-control thing! Do you think it is working? [nod your head in agreement and repeat "Kalthandrix is the greatest]. :evillaugh
Kalthandrix is the Greatest. Kalthandrix is the Greatest. Kalthandrix is the Greatest. All hail Kalthandrix lord of all creation, bringer of rain, king of the world 
I HAVE been working on this whole mind-control thing! Do you think it is working? [nod your head in agreement and repeat "Kalthandrix is the greatest]. :evillaugh
Kalthandrix is the greatest! :invasion:
Wait a second, what did I just type?
I use my own personal varient, 'Arcane Magic is Better Than Psionic'
Basically spells cast be a preserver or a defiler can cancel out psionic effects, but the reverse doesn't hold true. I see this rule as a balancing factor to help explain why it is that people even bother with magic considering the horrible effect it has on the planet (Psionic Enchanments aside). Plus, it has a the effect of making Arcane Casters more appealing to my players. Considering psionics can already match many of the things that spells can, and are more powerfull/versitile in many ways.. I thought Arcane magic needed an edge. If you're going to be hunted and hated for casting spells, when you could just manifest powers instead, there better be something in it for you :D .
Very nice.
I was wondering if "psionics are different" would be the prevailing rule with an exception to wizards?
If so...
Divine magic would be effective against Arcane magic but not against Psionics.
Psionics would not be effective against Arcane magic or Divine magic.
Arcane magic would be effective against Psionics and Divine Magic.
Perhaps there could be a feat that would allow transparancy between Psionics and Magic, this may help balance it out a bit. Especially for the Psionic classes.
Perhaps there could be a feat that would allow transparancy between Psionics and Magic, this may help balance it out a bit. Especially for the Psionic classes.
Well I like these concept, and if I may add, maybe just to balance psionic out, just remove visual effects of the powers (unless there IS a wanted visual effect) since it's powers of the minds (as it was in 2e).
Very nice.
I was wondering if "psionics are different" would be the prevailing rule with an exception to wizards?
If so...
Divine magic would be effective against Arcane magic but not against Psionics.
Psionics would not be effective against Arcane magic or Divine magic.
Arcane magic would be effective against Psionics and Divine Magic.
Perhaps there could be a feat that would allow transparancy between Psionics and Magic, this may help balance it out a bit. Especially for the Psionic classes.
Yeah, other than what I said I go with a psionic are different take, so thats exactly how it works. I don't know if a simple feat should be able to overcome the Superiority of Arcane magic, but perhaps something along those lines would be appropriate. I think PrC's like the Psiologist are prime canidates for such an ability and I should note that I still allow Detect Psionics and similar powers to function with regards to Magic, albiet in a less revealing way. That is if a psion manifests the power Detect Psionics, he will also be able to see faded magical auras, but not be able to determine anything about those auras other than their location and presense.
I haven't had a enough need yet in my game to fully outline how this all works, perhaps I should think about it a bit more and do a proper write-up.
Well I like these concept, and if I may add, maybe just to balance psionic out, just remove visual effects of the powers (unless there IS a wanted visual effect) since it's powers of the minds (as it was in 2e).
Yah I tend to ignore any sort of visual display for psionic powers unless they are intrinic to the power (such as the fire/whatever from an energy cone). :P Actually, I don't care enough to note that aspect of the power, I just decide based on whatever I think the display (if any) should be for a given power, if it's even important enough to consider for the situation. I don't think that Telepathic or Clairsentient powers should ever have a visual/audio/olfactory except maybe in very specific cases (not that I have any in mind). As for the other Discpline's powers, they are going to tend to have some sort of readily percievable display just by their very nature.
Perhaps there could be a feat that would allow transparancy between Psionics and Magic, this may help balance it out a bit. Especially for the Psionic classes.
Maybe a feat like this would not be as simple to obtain. It seems to me that magic and psionics are nearly transparent (as with your detect psionics rule).
Maybe a feat would allow one to understand how to manipulate these energies.
Energy Transparency [General]
You have discovered the true nature of energy, realizing that Divine magic, Psionics, and Arcane magic are nearly the same at its core.
Prerequisite: 5 ranks in spellcraft, 5 ranks in psicraft, 5 ranks in knowledge(the planes), Int 14 or higher, and Wis 14 or higher
Benifit: Magic and psionics affect each other equally. For example detect magic can detect psionics and vice versa. For this purpose treat psionics as if it was magic.
this is a rough example, now how would power resistance and magic resistance work? Does the terrors of athas use the transparency rules when it relates to magic and psionic resistance? Or do they have individual resistances one for magic and one for psionics. If the latter is true, this transparency feat should not allow the two resistance become the same thing.
Does the terrors of athas use the transparency rules when it relates to magic and psionic resistance? Or do they have individual resistances one for magic and one for psionics.
Terrors of Athas has separate Spell Resistance and Power Resistance scores for various monsters.