- The original setting of those modules every veteran gamer out there keeps talking about but nobody you know has ever played :P
- No almighty good guys (nah, Tenser doesn't count, even he didn't dare go back to Monkey Island :D .. hmm, retrospectively, it just proves he wasn't stupid...)
- Homeworld of Azalin, Tharizdun and Vecna; you just can't beat that!
- There are still innkeepers here that aren't a retired lvl 24 wizard with an illithid in temporal stasis under the stairs
- All the "Return to.." modules out there belong to this setting. If it wasn't the best, why return to it? ;)
- It's the "Core" setting for the 3rd edition (yeah, I know, but we might as well use that for a little free advertising)
- No need to fear the next novel will mess up the setting, we don't have any! (at least in the last few years)
- No warforged and no Seven Sisters (I know quite a few people this would convince..)
- There is a "Carl Sargent was here!" scribbled on a wall somewhere in Dorakaa (no, but seriously!)
- When national borders change here, it's because of a war, not due to the impact of a giant meteor or the arrival of giant dragons. Oh, and no Tinker Gnomes allowed either!
- Each and every named spell from the PHB originated from here. How cool is that, uh?
If it wasn't the best, why return to it? ;)
Nostalgia. It's a big draw for the setting.
The World of Greyhawk has more going for it than that, of course: its unique mix of cultures, kingdoms, and gods is very tasty. I mean, it certainly wasn't nostalgia that got me into it. It's a solid, flexible setting that will fit most campaigns you want to run.
2. It emphasizes the classic swords & sorcery fantasy aspect of D&D better than any other world. It reminds me of the works of Leiber, Howard, Vance and Moorcock. That's rare these days. This sort of genre fiction is almost entirely foreign to the current generation of young fantasy fans.
3. It's a very player-centered world. No novels, video games or metaplotted sourcebooks attempt to tell Greyhawk play groups what's "currently" happening in the setting. That's decided at the table.
4. The battle between Law and Chaos is as, if not more, important than the battle between Good and Evil. In most settings, Good and Evil are the main event and Law and Chaos sort of fade into the background. Only the Planescape setting uses the D&D alignment system better than Greyhawk in my opinion.
5. War are politics are as important in Greyhawk as they are in our own medieval history. Some other settings like Eberron make good use of these as plot devices, but for most D&D worlds, the focus is not on these ever-present aspects of human society. Sometimes "Good" nations even go to war with one another because of things like economics, expansionist foreign policy and cultural and religious prejudice.
6. Almost all of the best adventure modules TSR published were set in Greyhawk. Virtually all are still worth hunting down and playing today. It's hard to underestimate this factor!
7. Nostalgia. I list it last because I really do consider it the least important. Why? Because I never picked-up a Greyhawk book before 2002 and listen to me go on! ;)
--Erik Mona
Not only is it fun to run though the classic adventures and meet legendary figures, but individual campaigns (players and DM's) can really feel like they are creating their own Greyhawk while generally following the accepted lore. Not every player has access to appropriate reference material or world history to directly challenge a DM's imagination!!!
Greyhawk allows for a sense of individual creation within a recognizable framework.
2. It emphasizes the classic swords & sorcery fantasy aspect of D&D better than any other world. It reminds me of the works of Leiber, Howard, Vance and Moorcock. That's rare these days. This sort of genre fiction is almost entirely foreign to the current generation of young fantasy fans.
::shudder:: I respectfully disagree.
LEIBER - GH resembles the work of Fritz Leiber _only_ if you accept:
(1) Gord as a poor-man's Gray Mouser;
(2) Chert as a low-rent Fafhrd; and
(3) The City of Greyhawk as Lankhmar with a lobotomy.
HOWARD - GH in no way compares with Howard's heroic fantasy, particularly the Hyborian Age and its antecedents.
Read Mongoose Publishing's Conan RPG for a very good "translation" of the Hyborian Age into an rpg. GH, coming from D&D with all its tropes, bears no resemblance to Howard's Hyborian Age. No plethora of magic weapons. No plethora of monsters. No apocalytiptic clash between barbarism and civilization. No emphasis on either clerics, wizards or non-human races.
MOORCOCK - Pre-FtA, there was a case to be made. FtA, however, emphasized Good vs Evil over and above Law vs Chaos and GH has still not recovered from Sargent's moralizing simplification of the setting.
VANCE - Okay. One out of four ain't bad.
The idea that GH is "classic swords and sorcery fantasy" is an annoying "buzz" phrase that has no basis in demonstrable reality. If what is meant is "sword swinging heroism in a world that never" was that is fine but that is _NOT_ "swords and sorcery fantasy" but at best a vast oversimplification and at worst a demonstration of the speaker's ignorance of the swords and sorcery literary genre.
Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean.
Why can't Greyhawk just provide the potential for adventures for a pair of disreputable layabouts who stumble from one mess to another? That's the comparison I see.
Why would the Hyborian Age needs swarms of magic weapons, monsters, spellchuckers of all sorts, or non-human races, to be a model for Greyhawk? Why not just focus on the parallel of a man coming from the lowest rung of society to make himself a King?
Why not focus on his battles with unspeakably powerful enemies, most of them ineffably Evil, and wielding even more forbidden magics?
The clash of barbarism vs. civilization is definitely present, if you look for it, as is the transitional nature of the milieu.
Moorcock I won't speak to, as I intensely disliked Elric and never read anything else.
Vance I've just read The Dying Earth books, but despite the memorization of spells element, I find that to be the least similar elemen, unless you consider Greyhawk to be a setting where everyone is a venal swine, constantly betraying everyone else for their own advantage, and using really obscure words to describe everything.
Of course, reflecting books is something that is best done only very generally. Having characters from novels about means they are always threatening to overshadow the players and their accomplishments. I prefer to use books merely as a general theme and not more directly.
...and using really obscure words to describe everything.
It's easy to tell that Gygax is a Vance fan. After Celene is effected, we shall journey to the fane of the Spider Queen and fight a catoplepas or some such personage, assuming our comeliness scores are high enough.
::shudder:: I respectfully disagree.
Suit yourself, but I'm able to detect inspiration even in the absence of emulation.
There is a "Carl Sargent was here!" scribbled on a wall somewhere in Dorakaa
Nice.
Suit yourself, but I'm able to detect inspiration even in the absence of emulation.
LOL! :D Well said!
However, I think it would be a case of "emultion." ;) Any "emulation" failed. Not even a good pastiche. ;)
I'll give EGG credit for being completely original in his execution, whatever his inspiration.
"The quality of mercy is not strained." ;) "Saint" Dammerung ;)
Why can't Greyhawk just provide the potential for adventures for a pair of disreputable layabouts who stumble from one mess to another? That's the comparison I see. . . .
Why not focus on his battles with unspeakably powerful enemies, most of them ineffably Evil, and wielding even more forbidden magics?
Less in such case would not be more, or even the same, just less, IMO. You are kinder than I in allowing this comparison to suffice.
The clash of barbarism vs. civilization is definitely present, if you look for it, as is the transitional nature of the milieu.
This is a fascinating observation. Having not thought the matter through, I can't offer more. While interesting, however, I think Howard's clash was of a more "primal" nature.
Greyhawk is the framework around which the DM and players stretch their canvas and paint their campaign's picture (FR and Eb are more like paint by numbers with FR changing constantly with every novel/supplement/video game). You're given just enough to work with to make it fit your own tastes and it allows for radical changes if need be. You'll often hear people around hear clamor for a new GH book once in a while but I think it's more about the never ending quest for ideas more than anything else. I know I enjoy hearing about other people's GH campaigns as well as talking about our own. I think we'd look at a GH book circa 610 cy or so kind of in the same light, at least I would. My DM would mine it for ideas, probably discard 2/3's of it and turn it into another 30-40 year campaign, but it'd make an interesting read! Not to mention all of the arguments it would start here!
For me, this is the most important reason I favor Greyhawk over other published settings. While I may not have the time to come up with a whole campaign world from scratch, I do have time to do some filling in of holes. Greyhawk is a good fit.
::shudder:: I respectfully disagree.
LEIBER - GH resembles the work of Fritz Leiber _only_ if you accept:
(1) Gord as a poor-man's Gray Mouser;
(2) Chert as a low-rent Fafhrd; and
(3) The City of Greyhawk as Lankhmar with a lobotomy.
And Gary would be ecstatic to even think people would compare his work to Leiber which as far as I know you are the first.
Greyhawk has managed to primarily steer away from the wonky, munchkin, twinkish, wow-factor that seems to pervade almost all campaign settings since. Probably because they strive to offer something new and unique but to me only come off as embarassing, and sophmoric 90% of the time.
Of course Greyhawk isn't immune to this but I think with a few exceptions (Greyspace, Philidor, Falcon series, R. Estes) sets a very high bar.
Read Mongoose Publishing's Conan RPG for a very good "translation" of the Hyborian Age into an rpg. GH, coming from D&D with all its tropes, bears no resemblance to Howard's Hyborian Age. No plethora of magic weapons. No plethora of monsters. No apocalytiptic clash between barbarism and civilization. No emphasis on either clerics, wizards or non-human races.
Lol. Conan purists such as myself and others find your analogy of mongoose's Conan rpg as an accurate translation of the Howard books to be as accurate as Greyhawk being a good rendition of Lankmar. 99% of the bunk found in the Conan RPG hails from Marvel Comics and bears little resemblance to the Howard fiction. Crom laughs at your theories...laughs from his mountain...
Crom laughs at your theories...laughs from his mountain...
As long as he doesn't step down from it.. ;)
George
What I mean is that if - with limited info at hand - you try to give your players the grand tour of the whole GH world, you'll probably fail.
So, I advise choosing a small spot of GH and adventuring there until you (and your players) get to know the world better. There are many ways to do this. Here are a few:
1) using a self-contained module (i.e. Temple of Elemental Evil)
2) using a well-described location (i.e. Diamond Lake in the Age of Worms mega-adventure from Dungeon Magazine, or Saltmarsh from the old U modules series)
3) picking some 'forgotten' corner of the world and doing with it as you please until you're ready to discover what's beyond the next hill (i.e. Keoland, your 'average' stereotypical heroic-fantasy kingdom.. more or less)
Another thing you need to decide is the year your campaign begins as it will have consequences (if you follow the GH chronology, that is). Possible choices are:
- pre-581 CY: the nations of the Flanaess are still (relatively) at peace despite some local conflict but stormclouds are gathering and most feel large-scale war is coming
- 581-584 CY: the Greyhawk Wars (think WW)
- 585 CY and beyond: the Flanaess recovers and rebuilds. Some call it the dawn of the Age of Exploration as, once again, various nations try to discover what lies beyond their little corner of the world (mainly to secure new resources and allies)
I am just starting d&d and I have the opportunity to play in a Greyhawk campaign. Any useful tips would be appreciated. I have downloaded all the documents that I could about Greyhawk. I just wanted to know if I picked a good place to start or should I do something different and then jump into Greyhawk? Thanks in advance.
George
The best all-round primer for the World of Greyhawk in 591 CY to my mind, is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. It's out of print now, but I'm willing to bet you can pick it up somewhere on the Fabulous Electric Internet for not too much cash. It gives a comprehensive overview of each of the realms of the Flanaess, a potted history, the most comprehensive published overview of Greyhawk's gods and some tidbits on major organisations such as the Old Faith, the Circle of Eight etc.
If you're playing in earlier game periods, then your overview products of choice are:
585 CY - From the Ashes boxed set
576 CY - The World of Greyhawk boxed set
Both are OOP, but it's not too hard to lay hands on them at second hand gaming stalls at cons or on the net.
Those products will give you a good introduction and grounding in the setting and should let you identify which parts of the Flanaess interest you most. Then you can start looking at more region specific sourcebooks such as The Marklands (detailing Highfolk, Furyondy and Nyrond). Ivid the Undying, a sourcebook which details the Great Kingdom, is worth having, as it's (a) very, very good and (b) free to download from the net.
Hope that's of help to ya.
P.
* It's the only world where the gods are withdrawn enough that the Demon Princes and Archdevils are the main villains.
* JUSTICAR
(Whenever I say this one, it's like I've killed a kitten to most hardcore Greyhawk fans)
* The original adventure modules (which need updates badly)
* The place where humor and fantasy mix
(Whenever I say this one, it's like I've killed a kitten to most hardcore Greyhawk fans)
Not at all. The novels might be silly, but if you can't have some fun with the setting, you're no GH fan, IMHO.
Not at all. The novels might be silly, but if you can't have some fun with the setting, you're no GH fan, IMHO.
I take them a tad more seriously than most honestly. Largely because I tend to probably 'overread' the Justicar causally killing Lolth as a reminder that the Drow are NOT the be-end-all of existence.
I honestly wish they'd continue the series. The books had the potential to cover all the old modules instead of the inferior Keep on the Borderlands and other whacky parties.
I take them a tad more seriously than most honestly. Largely because I tend to probably 'overread' the Justicar causally killing Lolth as a reminder that the Drow are NOT the be-end-all of existence.
I honestly wish they'd continue the series. The books had the potential to cover all the old modules instead of the inferior Keep on the Borderlands and other whacky parties.
I'd rather read novels that weren't one party's telling of old adventure modules. give me something new and fresh that allows me to explore more of Greyhawk.
Sorry - off topic.
I'd rather read novels that weren't one party's telling of old adventure modules. give me something new and fresh that allows me to explore more of Greyhawk.
I would agree except for the fact that the "fun" of the Justicar was that he was essentially a group of player characters by people who can't play worth a damn. It was much better realized in these books than in Dungeons and Dragons the movie (where no one 'breaks character' for a minute but still act ridiculous)
The characters are clearly ridiculous in the context of the world and very clearly made up player characters, yet they nevertheless are 'fun' because of such.
I feel cheated when things like "The House of Strahd" adventure is referenced in the RL timeline but it worked in Greyhawk.