Anyone?
With 4th edition still a few years away I'm thinking it's time to start a petition that will free Greyhawk of its core status. That way, when 4e does arrive and they place that unique "honor" upon Eberron (or some other unsuspecting setting), Greyhawk will be free for the kind of development we had hoped for in 3e.
Anyone?
Meh. I used to want new Greyhawk stuff, but I've grown to enjoy the flexibility of the setting. Additionally, there's way too much ground to cover in Greyhawk for WotC to be able to produce everything everyone wants.
The only thing I'd like to see at this point is a single book that can include things like the Regional Feats from Dragon Magazine (Issues #315 and #319), Greyhawk-specific magic items and artifacts, and player character options from the Living Greyhawk Journals. A second book featuring the highlighted cities and regions in Living Greyhawk Journal would be nice, too.
If I were to request one thing for Greyhawk, it would be more information about Almor in its ruined state. I'm planing a high-level/epic adventure for my campaign, but that's a perfect example of a unique request. Everyone else who loves the setting will want something different.
I was never a big fan of Greyhawk being the core setting idea, anyway. I'll be glad when it fades away. I can only hope Eberron becomes the next victim, though it's unlikely.
As it stands, we're already getting next to nothing on the setting; that is, if you exclude the Age of Worms in Dungeon, so why not?
I was never a big fan of Greyhawk being the core setting idea, anyway. I'll be glad when it fades away. I can only hope Eberron becomes the next victim, though it's unlikely.
I'm not sure I understand your question of "why not?" Why not what?
The other great thing about Greyhawk being "core" is that players can jump right into Greyhawk without having to learn altered setting dynamics (i.e. - dieties, demographics, inhabitants, etc.) nor do they need to learn additional rules.
If my players wanted to really learn more about their home regions or additional deities, they can pick up a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and read the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars, which is free.
I'm petitioning for exactly the amount of Greyhawk support we are currently getting. Previously I was in favor of a hardbound setting book, but I've since changed my mind.
I dislike the scattered collection of materials from magazines, web sites, and out-of-print resources. it's just not practical from a DM's perspective. If they gathered this material into one collection or republished it as a series of articles, I'd be very happy as a DM using the "core" setting.
Personally, I like it as the core setting. It makes it even easier to pick and choose from the generic D&D content to include in my campaign; I can drop "core" content into my version of Greyhawk without much fuss or exhausted explanation.
The other great thing about Greyhawk being "core" is that players can jump right into Greyhawk without having to learn altered setting dynamics (i.e. - dieties, demographics, inhabitants, etc.) nor do they need to learn additional rules.
If my players wanted to really learn more about their home regions or additional deities, they can pick up a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and read the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars, which is free.
But has being the setting made Greyhawk any more popular? If so, then you would think that hardcover everyone has been clamoring for would have appeared by now.
The real question should be: has being the core setting made Greyhawk a stronger setting overall, or just a hodge podge of proper nouns all strung together and placed at random in so-called core books?
I'm petitioning for exactly the amount of Greyhawk support we are currently getting.
You're 'petitioning' for something you're already getting? Interesting.
But has being the setting made Greyhawk any more popular? If so, then you would think that hardcover everyone has been clamoring for would have appeared by now.
The real question should be: has being the core setting made Greyhawk a stronger setting overall, or just a hodge podge of proper nouns all strung together and placed at random in so-called core books?
The point is that the core setting is liberal enough for the DM to make his or her own version stronger without having to deal with major shifts in the campaign setting as determined by an author who had a creative outburst. If Greyhawk is developed yet again, DM's lose control over their setting as seen with Forgotten Realms. Here's an upcoming example:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/967060000&dcmp=ILC-BOOKSFARTHESTRCHDND
I've read plenty of threads about how many Greyhawkers hated what the Greyhawk Wars did to their beloved setting.
You're 'petitioning' for something you're already getting? Interesting.
It's no less valid than petitioning against an amendment to a state constitution.
The point is that the core setting is liberal enough for the DM to make his or her own version stronger without having to deal with major shifts in the campaign setting as determined by an author who had a creative outburst. If Greyhawk is developed yet again, DM's lose control over their setting as seen with Forgotten Realms. Here's an upcoming example:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/967060000&dcmp=ILC-BOOKSFARTHESTRCHDND
I've read plenty of threads about how many Greyhawkers hated what the Greyhawk Wars did to their beloved setting.
Well, the 'do-nothing' faction doesn't really have a say in it. If you like what you have, then keep it static, and lose your voice in the process.
People who liked the original setting (ala folio) still have that setting, and for what it's worth, those who would have it frozen in 1990 do too, but that does little to satisfy those who want more from the setting.
No one is asking you to buy more, Amaril, I am simply asking for the right to buy material which is specific to the setting. The 'core' solution is a cheap one at best because it doesn't address the uniqueness of Greyhawk, it merely becomes a dumping ground for whatever people want to put there...
which is not Greyhawk.
Well, the 'do-nothing' faction doesn't really have a say in it. If you like what you have, then keep it static, and lose your voice in the process.
People who liked the original setting (ala folio) still have that setting, and for what it's worth, those who would have it frozen in 1990 do too, but that does little to satisfy those who want more from the setting.
No one is asking you to buy more, Amaril, I am simply asking for the right to buy material which is specific to the setting. The 'core' solution is a cheap one at best because it doesn't address the uniqueness of Greyhawk, it merely becomes a dumping ground for whatever people want to put there...
which is not Greyhawk.
Points taken, Bogwater. I would like to clarify, however, that I wouldn't be against additional material.
I'll break this down into two lists -- what I want and what I don't want.
Want:
Development of nations, cities, organizations, and wilderness areas that have yet to be thoroughly detailed such as Chathold and the Badlands in Almor.
Material from the Living Greyhawk Journal, the Living Greyhawk Web site, and Dragon Magazine (e.g. - Regional Feats of Oerth, Mysterious Places, Paladins of Greyhawk, Hardby, The Bright Desert, The Silent Ones, The Seekers, The Vault of the Drow, etc.) all in one or two compiled publications, stand-alone publications, printer-friendly PDFs, or free web articles.
Greyhawk novels
Material that isn't campaign specific such as a Greyhawk/Core Underdark instead of one laced with Forgotten Realms content.
Don't want:
Yet another republication of the Free City of Greyhawk
A "new age" of Greyhawk where the world has drastically changed with all newly published Greyhawk material written accordingly (I don't mind small developments such as Nyrond becoming fully recovered, but don't go destroying another nation altogether)
Novels, written by furry comic authors, that are based on adventures
Novels that revamp the world (or completely destroy it out of spite)
By the way, I would say that the addition of non-core Greyhawk dieties in Complete Divine was a step in the right direction for core support as are the various PrCs throughout the complete books (e.g. - Battlemage from the Bright Desert).
Points taken, Bogwater. I would like to clarify, however, that I wouldn't be against additional material.
I'll break this down into two lists -- what I want and what I don't want.
Want:
Development of nations, cities, organizations, and wilderness areas that have yet to be thoroughly detailed such as Chathold and the Badlands in Almor.
Material from the Living Greyhawk Journal, the Living Greyhawk Web site, and Dragon Magazine (e.g. - Regional Feats of Oerth, Mysterious Places, Paladins of Greyhawk, Hardby, The Bright Desert, The Silent Ones, The Seekers, The Vault of the Drow, etc.) all in one or two compiled publications, stand-alone publications, printer-friendly PDFs, or free web articles.
Greyhawk novels
Material that isn't campaign specific such as a Greyhawk/Core Underdark instead of one laced with Forgotten Realms content.
Don't want:
Yet another republication of the Free City of Greyhawk
A "new age" of Greyhawk where the world has drastically changed with all newly published Greyhawk material written accordingly (I don't mind small developments such as Nyrond becoming fully recovered, but don't go destroying another nation altogether)
Novels, written by furry comic authors, that are based on adventures
Novels that revamp the world (or completely destroy it out of spite)
By the way, I would say that the addition of non-core Greyhawk dieties in Complete Divine was a step in the right direction for core support as are the various PrCs throughout the complete books (e.g. - Battlemage from the Bright Desert).
Well, we have more in common than most, then. I'm not particularly keen on a new age, myself, (though I am guilty of changing the face of the setting on a grand scale), but I would like more, especially in the way of articles published on the setting post-gazeteer.
Seems I remember hearing a rumor about a LGJ round-up that would have done just that, but then it got bumped or canceled, or some such thing.
So I guess it's back to waiting and/or collecting the scraps of articles that are going to be released in the meantime.
And while producing additional content doesn't necessarily effect me, since I don't have to buy it, removing Greyhawk as the core setting certainly does.
I think we're seeing a positive movement for GH though. Recently, we've seen the Complete Divine feature Greyhawk deities, along with a complete fleshing out of Saltmarsh in the DMG II. I don't think these expositions are extensive or perfect, but if each "core" sourcebook had something like that in it I don't think I'd complain too much about the lack of GH source material. That and I think they need to keep writing modules, but I realize that's a lost cause so I'm happy with Dungeon magazine for now.
No harm has come from Greyhawk being the core setting. If anything, it keeps some consciousness of the setting out in front of everyone.
Second, even though lots of material has been published for Greyhawk, it's getting harder to get (unless you're willing to buy it as a .pdf file and print it out, which seems like a hollow substitute). At the very least, I'd like to see some Greyhawk stuff reprinted and made available again, maybe a nice hardcover collection.
Finally, it's way too early to be talking about a 4th edition.
With 4th edition still a few years away I'm thinking it's time to start a petition that will free Greyhawk of its core status. That way, when 4e does arrive and they place that unique "honor" upon Eberron (or some other unsuspecting setting), Greyhawk will be free for the kind of development we had hoped for in 3e.
Anyone?
I am all for GH _not_ being the 4E "default." I think GH will only get further development of a meaningful nature when a) GH is not the 4E "default and b) Living GH has terminated.
The way to achieve this is, however, to do nothing, IMO. I do not believe there are any plans to continue GH as the 4E "default" setting. I would rather not suggest the possibility, even by arguing for not doing it.
I think 4E will use a "neutral" default. The use of GH in 3E has been at best a mixed success. It was an experiment but I don't think it was successful enough to see any setting made a "default" in the future.
I think 4E is just around the corner. Watch the next "adventure path" in Dungeon after Age of Worms. ;)
In 4E, Greyhawk _will_ get further development, I believe. Whether it is a codification of parts of LG or whether it is all new, I'm less sure of at this point.
Greyhawk - The Once And Future Setting. :D
Well, the 'do-nothing' faction doesn't really have a say in it. If you like what you have, then keep it static, and lose your voice in the process.
People who liked the original setting (ala folio) still have that setting, and for what it's worth, those who would have it frozen in 1990 do too, but that does little to satisfy those who want more from the setting.
No one is asking you to buy more, Amaril, I am simply asking for the right to buy material which is specific to the setting. The 'core' solution is a cheap one at best because it doesn't address the uniqueness of Greyhawk, it merely becomes a dumping ground for whatever people want to put there...which is not Greyhawk.
This is a good point. I think most gamers feel like they have to buy evrything that is published about a particular setting and they further feel as if they have to conform to whatever changes have been made. Obviously that's not true but it is hard to avoid the temptation. Greyhawkers aren't lemmings, that's for sure, but I would imagine their would be a stampede of us going to the shop to pick up our hardbound copies of "Rain of Colorless Fire II: Greyhawk in Ruins". Hell, I'd get it just to see the maps and what alterations they did to the continent. I for one wouldn't have a problem with any new material, ultimately my DM will decide what would or wouldn't be used anyway. With a little arm twisting I could persuade him of course but that's a different matter all together. :D
You could give it to Paizo, of course, and we'd have half a dozen books by next year (well-written ones, I might add), but Wotc just ain't that bright. They're petrified that such an action would cut into their precious cash cow, Eberron, which hasn't generated as much interest as they had hoped it would. It's been successful, sure, but not in the kind of numbers they were hoping for, or at least that's what my insider sources are telling me. And you know how reliable those guys are...
But then, that might lead to another kind of problem for Greyhawk. If Eberron has yet to generate the kind of interest that gaming companies long for, then giving away Greyhawk might be unwise, for if it were to blossom anew, it might generate outside interest in the setting which would ultimately strip Eberron of new fans.
Either way, Greyhawk is languishing in a state unworthy of any setting, especially one of its long history.
What really gets to me, though, is the way people use Greyhawk fans against each other when they want to shout down any request for new Greyhawk material. They spout cliches like "Greyhawk fans can't agree about anything," and "it's too hard to write for the setting, boo-hoo boo-hoo." Well, guess what? Every setting is hard to write for. They all have unique histories that new writers must respect, and Greyhawk is hardly unique in this way, but opponents of the setting would have you believe so.
In short: Wotc should either **** or get off the pot. Start producing Greyhawk material or set the damn thing free.
[/rant]
Finally, it's way too early to be talking about a 4th edition.
Hear! Hear!
-A person who will stop buying rules sources once 4e comes out.
I would also like to note that I have nothing against the sucess of other game worlds. If Eberron is very sucessful than congrats to Keith Baker. WOTC received over 10,000 proposals for a new campaign setting, so many of us in here must of submitted something. I may not be an eberron fan or a Forgotten Realms fan. This doesn't mean I wish fans of those settings to find themselves in the same place many a GH fan has found themselves.
As far as complaints on author's writing books which change the scope of the world. It's your game world what you want to be true is true and no author can take that from you.
Just my two cents...
We might very well see those books made reality.
With so many people demanding them, they're pretty much WotC's life insurance: Should one of the newer/ongoing lines not work anymore, means, don't sell, they just do a Dark Sun and a Planescape book and *reactive* some of the older loyal fan communiy that doesn't buy most of their books/ doesn't even play 3e. Now, with ONE such book come the MMs, the PHB, DMG 1 & 2...
Andanother old grognard converted to modern D&D. Just look how Judges Guild did it with Wilderlands.
what's wrong w/ greyhawk being the core setting? is it cause people thing of it as 'boring' because its the core setting, or because it doesnt get much development, or both or something else? i dont understand what's wrong w/ it the way it is now, its adaptable. with greyhawk i dont have to make my own world, but its a world i can tailor to suit my player's desires and allow me to be creative
The only drawback is that it's no longer further explored. I once wanted a hardcover Greyhawk book with feats, PrCs, more details on the various organizations, etc., but I've since embraced the idea that I can develop it anyway I please without books and resources bogging it down. The generic D&D supplements make enough little references to Greyhawk or are generic enough that I can easily drop the content right into my campaign with minimal effort.
I especially love the ties to the setting in some of the specific weapons in Arms & Equipment Guide (e.g. - Scourge of the Pomarj) and new base classes such as the warmage.
The only thing I would ask for is a generic underdark book instead of an FR Underdark book. I also wouldn't mind a book like the upcoming Power of Faerun but for the core setting or for generic D&D.
The only drawback is that it's no longer further explored. I once wanted a hardcover Greyhawk book with feats, PrCs, more details on the various organizations, etc., but I've since embraced the idea that I can develop it anyway I please without books and resources bogging it down. The generic D&D supplements make enough little references to Greyhawk or are generic enough that I can easily drop the content right into my campaign with minimal effort.
I especially love the ties to the setting in some of the specific weapons in Arms & Equipment Guide (e.g. - Scourge of the Pomarj) and new base classes such as the warmage.
The only thing I would ask for is a generic underdark book instead of an FR Underdark book. I also wouldn't mind a book like the upcoming Power of Faerun but for the core setting or for generic D&D.
Yeah, exactly.
The problem is that n00bs (and that may mean everyone who started WoG after 2000) may simply not get together all the material they need for an intense campaign. I mean, one can try to collect expensive oop products, or work with pdfs (no real solution, in my opinion), but one will have a load of preparatory work to do compared with *I just buy the Eberron CS and then start the lvl 1 adventure*. For me, it still works, but personally, I am a bit tired of having to be rarity collector for on of my favourite games.
Yeah, exactly.
The problem is that n00bs (and that may mean everyone who started WoG after 2000) may simply not get together all the material they need for an intense campaign. I mean, one can try to collect expensive oop products, or work with pdfs (no real solution, in my opinion), but one will have a load of preparatory work to do compared with *I just buy the Eberron CS and then start the lvl 1 adventure*. For me, it still works, but personally, I am a bit tired of having to be rarity collector for on of my favourite games.
Yeah it took me forever to get a collection of Greyhawk stuff for me to know as much as I do. It would have been much more welcoming as a new D&D player to have had additional recently published Greyhawk materials. Although, the LGG really did help a lot. The second best resource was the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars.
STOP TALKING ABOUT AN "ALLEGED" 4TH EDITION!!! please...for the love of Zarus...
#2:
Let's not rip the folks at Paizo (I know no one hasn't) because they ARE giving us adventures to play in. More of their adventures (especially the low levels) have been pro-Greyhawk (with a tab to convert to FR or Eberron), or have been "any" setting easily plopped into Greyhawk.
#3:
I agree that Greyhawk should have received the same treatment as FR. Being a Player turned DM I have many resources at my finger tips for FR because...WotC printed material for it to keep it current. I have the Living Greyhawk journal, plus the 4 part map recently printed in Dungeon, plus a few downloads here and there from the LG site on here...BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
Most of the players I know have played Forgotten Realms A LOT (both in 2nd ed and now) and it would be nice to play "something else". Personally I would like to tackle the Greyhawk setting. I've had to recently purchase "The Adventure Begins" just to get info on the city as a whole...why? This should have been updated a LONG time ago imho.
So when can we get some Greyhawk books similar to that which the Forgotten Realms has received?
Hopefully, WotC finally rethinks their policy. Saltmarsh was a good step in that direction...
No offense, but Saltmarsh was another instance of the scant lip-service they pay to Greyhawk as a way of keeping the old-timers around.
No offense, but Saltmarsh was another instance of the scant lip-service they pay to Greyhawk as a way of keeping the old-timers around.
No offense taken. What you say is very true - from what I've heard and seen, the DMG II is, although not bad, not explicitely ncecessesary for most gamers. Including Greyhawk content IMO was a sign that the company was very unsure if the rule expansion itself would sell among the fans. *No trolling here, but I just didn't have the feeling that the Saltmarsh article was fitting into that book... Should have done two separate books better :D *Heck...even I had to look it up, and not finding it on the map in the LGG made me wonder where the heck this place was.
If Greyhawk is used as an example (complete with maps, NPCs, etc) to begining players/DMs/etc then it will at least give them a visual of what a town would look like when constructed using the guides given for when they create their own worlds...if they so choose.
And it worked, because I bought the book specifically for Saltmarsh.
As I said earlier, the older settings are WotC joker for the hard times - whenever something new may flop, they can activate some older material...