Krynnish Elves and Bladesingers - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Krynnish Elves and Bladesingers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 28, 2005 17:35:29 Would an elven mage/fighter who took this PrC have to take the Test?
#2
old_sage
Jun 29, 2005 0:41:50 At its most basic level, this character still intends to practice some degree of magic, so I would say yes. The Test would still need to be successfully completed in order for the PC to be able to use the arcane arts.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jun 29, 2005 12:18:28 But they wouldnt necessarily have to take the WOHS PrC unless they wanted the benefit of the moon magic?
#4
zombiegleemax
Jun 29, 2005 16:14:13
But they wouldnt necessarily have to take the WOHS PrC unless they wanted the benefit of the moon magic?

According to the official view, it is not mandatory for those who have passed the test to take the PrC.
#5
darthsylver
Jun 29, 2005 16:55:10 Any Wizard who wishes to have access to Arcane Spells of 3rd level or higher would eventually be "persuaded" to take the the test. Now these wizards could still use 3rd or higher levels spells, but they would eventually come to the attention of the WoHS and be "persuaded."

Previously taking the test was assumed to be taking the PrC, however, in the sourcebook ToHS the test is laid out with it's potential rewards and hazards and does not specficially state that those who have taken the test must take the PrC. I believe they left this vague in order to allow DMs to put their own spin on this. Now the PrC states that the test is a Prerequisite for taking the PrC (as does the Griffon Wizard and Renegade Hunter PrC).

Now should the Bladsinger use any spontaneous spellcasting ability (such as Sorceror) then they would be persuaded to experience an epiphany and take the test (basically switching over to Wizardry).
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 29, 2005 16:57:13 IIRC in 2e there was a rule that said that renegade wizards receive low sanction modifiers when they reach 5th level because all wizards that wanted to learn spells beyond 2nd lvel are affected by the moons. I have not found anything like this in 3.5.

I liked this rule because it encourages wizards to learn moon magic (that is joining the orders). Might be wrong, but i think time ago i read in Nexus a house-rule feat called "Moon Magic". I was necesary for renegade wizards to advance to higher spell levels.
#7
mula
Jun 29, 2005 18:22:01 Sorcerous Bladesingers are perfectly viable and in my opinion more likely than wizardly ones. Sorcerers aren't restricted by tradition and arbitrary laws, and thus combining arcane magic with swordsmanship is just one of many ways to express your ambient talents.
#8
darthsylver
Jun 29, 2005 18:54:30 Originally posted by Mula
Sorcerous Bladesingers are perfectly viable and in my opinion more likely than wizardly ones. Sorcerers aren't restricted by tradition and arbitrary laws, and thus combining arcane magic with swordsmanship is just one of many ways to express your ambient talents.

While you are correct in this statement for most settings on Ansalon this just does not hold. What we need to remember is that both Elven governments declare elves that practice magic other than for the White robs as dark elves, even Red robes. This is indiciative of the elves suppport of the Orders of High Sorcery. As they support High Sorcery it would follow that they would be inclined to not support Sorcery altogether, especially as they might see it as part of their downfall in society. I mean every time they mess with Chaos magic it is bad for them. The first time ended the Dragon wars but destroyed huge portions of the land, sorcery was used for the shield over silvanost protecting & isolating them from the world enabling the minotaurs to mount an offensive they did not see until too late.

Almost from the get go the elves have supported High Sorcery and it would stand to reason that they would condemn any magic using elf that was not using High Sorcery of the White robes.

Now individual elves who do not agree with the elven government would be great choices for Sorcerous Bladesingers as well as neutral or evil Bladesingers. It is even possible that due to the elves current situation that they might change they standing on magic and embrace anything that will return their homes to them.

True_Raistlin, I do not recall the rule you are speaking of. Perhaps if you could give a reference I could help with this. But yes in 3.5 (as far as I know) there is no penalty for being a renegade.
#9
mula
Jun 29, 2005 19:06:04 Actually, Qualinesti elves used sorcery rather extensively during the pre-WoS Age of Mortals, and the AoM sourcebook states that Silvanesti turned to ancient manuscripts to learn this new magic.

Now that the old magic is back, many elven Sorcerers (especially Silvanesti) probably turn to wizardly magic, but considering the current, miserable state of the elven people, I think it's rather unlikely that any elf Sorcerer is branded a dark elf simply for practicing ambient magic (they even don't have access to the branding ritual places, at least Silvanesti don't). They need every help they can get!
#10
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2005 9:47:43 I believe that with the current affairs of the elven nations, with no nation, what does it really mean to be labeled a dark elf now?
#11
darthsylver
Jun 30, 2005 13:02:47 Originally posted by Mula
Actually, Qualinesti elves used sorcery rather extensively during the pre-WoS Age of Mortals, and the AoM sourcebook states that Silvanesti turned to ancient manuscripts to learn this new magic.

While this is true I would have to say it was more like they settled for this magic because focused magic was unavailable.

Now as statted before nobody really knows what will become accepted in elven society now, due to their current situation.

As far as being branded a dark elf for what we might consider trivial matters, you need to remember that we are talking about elves who (until this point) had a very rigid and structured society that was not changed or affected for hundreds of years. Elves were subseptible to being branded dark elves simply for trying to break out of their established positions in elven society (elves of house servitor trying to become clerics or wizards and such). It would not surprise me to find out that an elf was declared dark simply for worshipping a neutral deity such as chislev or reorx. You need to remember that I am basing these theories off of elven history and their reactions to events that took place. The elves have a strong tradition of being WoHS seeing as how it was they who were the original three wizards of the orders. They have as much history with the Orders of high Sorcery as any other race including humans. I would have to say that I would base most of the elves beliefs on ambient magic rather close to what the orders of high sorcery decide.

Could I be wrong, of course. But this is just my opinion.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2005 14:05:28 No where does it say that the elves were the heads of the orders, perhaps the white robes but not the red or black.
#13
mula
Jun 30, 2005 14:40:18 Darthsylver, you’re mainly describing Silvanesti culture. I also think there are probably very few Silvanesti elves who practice wild sorcery, but I can see Qualinesti elves still using it. Remember, both elven people have had their traditional cultures basically shattered to pieces. Some are desperately trying to hold on to the last vestiges of them (in elven ghettoes and all…) but some have undoubtedly looked to the world around them and begun to adapt in order to survive—especially the Qualinesti.

Also, as a minor issue, according to DLCS, the Silvanesti revere both Chislev and the Tree of Life (Zivilyn) as nature deities, and the Qualinesti do the same for Chislev (no mention of the Tree of Life).
#14
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2005 15:18:04 Revering is not the same as worshipping.
#15
mula
Jun 30, 2005 15:33:42 Well, still. They 'pay respect' to them. That's hardly a negative perspective on the deities.

And according to AoM, some elves have formed the Cult of the Bloody Condor, who obviously worship Sargonnas (or Kinthalas/Kinis).
#16
darthsylver
Jun 30, 2005 18:38:26 Treymordin,
I never said that the three elves were the heads of the order just that they were the first three Wizards of High Sorcery (the founders of the orders as it were).

From Tales of the Lance (pg. 17)
The end of the First Dragon War
Though the elves were long-lived, they were not immortal, as were the five chromatic dragons they fought. Many were the elves who fell before the withering breath of the dragons. Aid came from an unguessed quarter when three brothers, dressed in robes of white, red, and black, offered a solution. They had been blessed with a visit from the three gods of magic.

From Tales of the Lance (pg. 19)
The end of the Second Dragon War
When the days grew dark and short for Silvanost, three elven wild mages, trained by the Scions, banded together to drive off the dragons. Standing at the Tower of the Sun, these novice wild talents awakened the magic of land and sky-so much so that the very elements rebelled against the dragons. The wyrms were swallowed by the ground for all time. But the novice mages had tapped into far more magic than they could control. The elements lashed back on their masters, devastating the lands all about with floods and fires and earthquakes. Thousands perished. Only the original three mages remained in the Tower. When they saw that the folk of Silvanesti and Kharolis meant to harm them for the damage they had caused, these three mages called upon the gods for help. The brother-gods of magic heard the cry. With their power, they seized the tower and removed it from the face of Krynn, setting it in a higher plane. Thus, the tower became the Lost Citadel and the three mages became the founders of the Orders of High Sorcery. The brother-gods seized the five runestones.

Mula,
yes you are correct in that the elves revere some deities other than the gods of light. I am just pointing out thwat the elves including the Qualinesti were very arrogant and looked down upon any of their own race who did not conform to their society's view of what a "good and proper" elf should be.

I am also agreeing that due to current circumstances that the governments of all elven nations might embrace any advantage they can get their holds on in order to restore their lost civilizations.

I am not statting that NO elf would ever go against the norm and be an individual.

And yes if any elf would adapt to their surroundings in order to survive it would probably be the Qualinesti first, then the Kagonesti and finally the really arrogant b*****ds of Silvanesti stock. (of course by the time they-silvanesti, come around it will probably be too late).

Now as to elven culture. It has not been shattered. The governments have been destroyed, the buildings have been destroyed, the elves have been chased from their homelands. The culture however cannot be destroyed, it can only be forgotten. With a race as long lived as the elves this would be a hard thing to accomplish. Remember, the elves have migrated before - both the silvanesti and the qualinesti. A simple change of location will not destroy the cultures of the elves. Yes the Qualinesti have no home to return to, but the Silvanesti do. Heck this might even be what the elves really needed in order to become one society again. :P

Oh and let us please remember that there are three elven cultures based onland and two in the oceans.
#17
darthsylver
Jun 30, 2005 18:41:37 Originally posted by Treymordin
I believe that with the current affairs of the elven nations, with no nation, what does it really mean to be labeled a dark elf now?

It would probably amount to being exiled. Just as with nomads or Gypsies disowning a person and casting them out of the tribe.

"You've been voted off the island!!!" :D :D
#18
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2005 9:41:22 If they were caught of course. Would it be difficult now that they are all over the place?
#19
darthsylver
Jul 01, 2005 10:55:36 To be honest with you, any elf that disregards the government decrees probably does not want anything to do with the elven nation anyomore anyway. So the only way they might be caught (and put on record of course) is if they were withing "city limits" or within the are of influence of ther elves, which is to say very hard right now.

So if you are askng would it be difficult for the elves who are mosly in the Plains of Dust to catch an elven renegade in Sanction then yeah I would say it would be very difficult. If however that same elf was to walk through the elves encampment then the elf would probably be caught fairly easy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 28, 2005 17:35:29	Would an elven mage/fighter who took this PrC have to take the Test?
#2 old_sage Jun 29, 2005 0:41:50	At its most basic level, this character still intends to practice some degree of magic, so I would say yes. The Test would still need to be successfully completed in order for the PC to be able to use the arcane arts.
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2005 12:18:28	But they wouldnt necessarily have to take the WOHS PrC unless they wanted the benefit of the moon magic?
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2005 16:14:13	But they wouldnt necessarily have to take the WOHS PrC unless they wanted the benefit of the moon magic? According to the official view, it is not mandatory for those who have passed the test to take the PrC.
#5 darthsylver Jun 29, 2005 16:55:10	Any Wizard who wishes to have access to Arcane Spells of 3rd level or higher would eventually be "persuaded" to take the the test. Now these wizards could still use 3rd or higher levels spells, but they would eventually come to the attention of the WoHS and be "persuaded." Previously taking the test was assumed to be taking the PrC, however, in the sourcebook ToHS the test is laid out with it's potential rewards and hazards and does not specficially state that those who have taken the test must take the PrC. I believe they left this vague in order to allow DMs to put their own spin on this. Now the PrC states that the test is a Prerequisite for taking the PrC (as does the Griffon Wizard and Renegade Hunter PrC). Now should the Bladsinger use any spontaneous spellcasting ability (such as Sorceror) then they would be persuaded to experience an epiphany and take the test (basically switching over to Wizardry).
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2005 16:57:13	IIRC in 2e there was a rule that said that renegade wizards receive low sanction modifiers when they reach 5th level because all wizards that wanted to learn spells beyond 2nd lvel are affected by the moons. I have not found anything like this in 3.5. I liked this rule because it encourages wizards to learn moon magic (that is joining the orders). Might be wrong, but i think time ago i read in Nexus a house-rule feat called "Moon Magic". I was necesary for renegade wizards to advance to higher spell levels.
#7 mula Jun 29, 2005 18:22:01	Sorcerous Bladesingers are perfectly viable and in my opinion more likely than wizardly ones. Sorcerers aren't restricted by tradition and arbitrary laws, and thus combining arcane magic with swordsmanship is just one of many ways to express your ambient talents.
#8 darthsylver Jun 29, 2005 18:54:30	Originally posted by Mula Sorcerous Bladesingers are perfectly viable and in my opinion more likely than wizardly ones. Sorcerers aren't restricted by tradition and arbitrary laws, and thus combining arcane magic with swordsmanship is just one of many ways to express your ambient talents. While you are correct in this statement for most settings on Ansalon this just does not hold. What we need to remember is that both Elven governments declare elves that practice magic other than for the White robs as dark elves, even Red robes. This is indiciative of the elves suppport of the Orders of High Sorcery. As they support High Sorcery it would follow that they would be inclined to not support Sorcery altogether, especially as they might see it as part of their downfall in society. I mean every time they mess with Chaos magic it is bad for them. The first time ended the Dragon wars but destroyed huge portions of the land, sorcery was used for the shield over silvanost protecting & isolating them from the world enabling the minotaurs to mount an offensive they did not see until too late. Almost from the get go the elves have supported High Sorcery and it would stand to reason that they would condemn any magic using elf that was not using High Sorcery of the White robes. Now individual elves who do not agree with the elven government would be great choices for Sorcerous Bladesingers as well as neutral or evil Bladesingers. It is even possible that due to the elves current situation that they might change they standing on magic and embrace anything that will return their homes to them. True_Raistlin, I do not recall the rule you are speaking of. Perhaps if you could give a reference I could help with this. But yes in 3.5 (as far as I know) there is no penalty for being a renegade.
#9 mula Jun 29, 2005 19:06:04	Actually, Qualinesti elves used sorcery rather extensively during the pre-WoS Age of Mortals, and the AoM sourcebook states that Silvanesti turned to ancient manuscripts to learn this new magic. Now that the old magic is back, many elven Sorcerers (especially Silvanesti) probably turn to wizardly magic, but considering the current, miserable state of the elven people, I think it's rather unlikely that any elf Sorcerer is branded a dark elf simply for practicing ambient magic (they even don't have access to the branding ritual places, at least Silvanesti don't). They need every help they can get!
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2005 9:47:43	I believe that with the current affairs of the elven nations, with no nation, what does it really mean to be labeled a dark elf now?
#11 darthsylver Jun 30, 2005 13:02:47	Originally posted by Mula Actually, Qualinesti elves used sorcery rather extensively during the pre-WoS Age of Mortals, and the AoM sourcebook states that Silvanesti turned to ancient manuscripts to learn this new magic. While this is true I would have to say it was more like they settled for this magic because focused magic was unavailable. Now as statted before nobody really knows what will become accepted in elven society now, due to their current situation. As far as being branded a dark elf for what we might consider trivial matters, you need to remember that we are talking about elves who (until this point) had a very rigid and structured society that was not changed or affected for hundreds of years. Elves were subseptible to being branded dark elves simply for trying to break out of their established positions in elven society (elves of house servitor trying to become clerics or wizards and such). It would not surprise me to find out that an elf was declared dark simply for worshipping a neutral deity such as chislev or reorx. You need to remember that I am basing these theories off of elven history and their reactions to events that took place. The elves have a strong tradition of being WoHS seeing as how it was they who were the original three wizards of the orders. They have as much history with the Orders of high Sorcery as any other race including humans. I would have to say that I would base most of the elves beliefs on ambient magic rather close to what the orders of high sorcery decide. Could I be wrong, of course. But this is just my opinion.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2005 14:05:28	No where does it say that the elves were the heads of the orders, perhaps the white robes but not the red or black.
#13 mula Jun 30, 2005 14:40:18	Darthsylver, you’re mainly describing Silvanesti culture. I also think there are probably very few Silvanesti elves who practice wild sorcery, but I can see Qualinesti elves still using it. Remember, both elven people have had their traditional cultures basically shattered to pieces. Some are desperately trying to hold on to the last vestiges of them (in elven ghettoes and all…) but some have undoubtedly looked to the world around them and begun to adapt in order to survive—especially the Qualinesti. Also, as a minor issue, according to DLCS, the Silvanesti revere both Chislev and the Tree of Life (Zivilyn) as nature deities, and the Qualinesti do the same for Chislev (no mention of the Tree of Life).
#14 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2005 15:18:04	Revering is not the same as worshipping.
#15 mula Jun 30, 2005 15:33:42	Well, still. They 'pay respect' to them. That's hardly a negative perspective on the deities. And according to AoM, some elves have formed the Cult of the Bloody Condor, who obviously worship Sargonnas (or Kinthalas/Kinis).
#16 darthsylver Jun 30, 2005 18:38:26	Treymordin, I never said that the three elves were the heads of the order just that they were the first three Wizards of High Sorcery (the founders of the orders as it were). From Tales of the Lance (pg. 17) The end of the First Dragon War Though the elves were long-lived, they were not immortal, as were the five chromatic dragons they fought. Many were the elves who fell before the withering breath of the dragons. Aid came from an unguessed quarter when three brothers, dressed in robes of white, red, and black, offered a solution. They had been blessed with a visit from the three gods of magic. From Tales of the Lance (pg. 19) The end of the Second Dragon War When the days grew dark and short for Silvanost, three elven wild mages, trained by the Scions, banded together to drive off the dragons. Standing at the Tower of the Sun, these novice wild talents awakened the magic of land and sky-so much so that the very elements rebelled against the dragons. The wyrms were swallowed by the ground for all time. But the novice mages had tapped into far more magic than they could control. The elements lashed back on their masters, devastating the lands all about with floods and fires and earthquakes. Thousands perished. Only the original three mages remained in the Tower. When they saw that the folk of Silvanesti and Kharolis meant to harm them for the damage they had caused, these three mages called upon the gods for help. The brother-gods of magic heard the cry. With their power, they seized the tower and removed it from the face of Krynn, setting it in a higher plane. Thus, the tower became the Lost Citadel and the three mages became the founders of the Orders of High Sorcery. The brother-gods seized the five runestones. Mula, yes you are correct in that the elves revere some deities other than the gods of light. I am just pointing out thwat the elves including the Qualinesti were very arrogant and looked down upon any of their own race who did not conform to their society's view of what a "good and proper" elf should be. I am also agreeing that due to current circumstances that the governments of all elven nations might embrace any advantage they can get their holds on in order to restore their lost civilizations. I am not statting that NO elf would ever go against the norm and be an individual. And yes if any elf would adapt to their surroundings in order to survive it would probably be the Qualinesti first, then the Kagonesti and finally the really arrogant b*****ds of Silvanesti stock. (of course by the time they-silvanesti, come around it will probably be too late). Now as to elven culture. It has not been shattered. The governments have been destroyed, the buildings have been destroyed, the elves have been chased from their homelands. The culture however cannot be destroyed, it can only be forgotten. With a race as long lived as the elves this would be a hard thing to accomplish. Remember, the elves have migrated before - both the silvanesti and the qualinesti. A simple change of location will not destroy the cultures of the elves. Yes the Qualinesti have no home to return to, but the Silvanesti do. Heck this might even be what the elves really needed in order to become one society again. :P Oh and let us please remember that there are three elven cultures based onland and two in the oceans.
#17 darthsylver Jun 30, 2005 18:41:37	Originally posted by Treymordin I believe that with the current affairs of the elven nations, with no nation, what does it really mean to be labeled a dark elf now? It would probably amount to being exiled. Just as with nomads or Gypsies disowning a person and casting them out of the tribe. "You've been voted off the island!!!" :D :D
#18 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2005 9:41:22	If they were caught of course. Would it be difficult now that they are all over the place?
#19 darthsylver Jul 01, 2005 10:55:36	To be honest with you, any elf that disregards the government decrees probably does not want anything to do with the elven nation anyomore anyway. So the only way they might be caught (and put on record of course) is if they were withing "city limits" or within the are of influence of ther elves, which is to say very hard right now. So if you are askng would it be difficult for the elves who are mosly in the Plains of Dust to catch an elven renegade in Sanction then yeah I would say it would be very difficult. If however that same elf was to walk through the elves encampment then the elf would probably be caught fairly easy.