Evil Preservers - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Evil Preservers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2005 0:29:56 one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2005 1:07:38
one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it?

One of my NPCs at the moment is a NE elven wizard. She is a preserver, but she has defiled in the past. She doesn't want to become a defiler though, despite the power it would give her, because she enjoys the rush of defiling too much and doesn't want to give the magic that much of a hold over her.

Technically, preservers can be of any alignment (while defilers are limited to neutral or evil alignments). The best reason for an evil wizard to still be a preserver though is common sense. As a defiler, any time they cast a spell, any spell, they would literally be helping to kill an already dying world. Even an evil wizard could see that doing so is not conducive to their personal survival. Thus, an evil wizard could easily still be a preserver out of enlightened self-interest.
#3
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 01, 2005 2:18:49 The Veiled Alliance is not a good organization. The closest parallel I can think of is a terrorist network that engages in smuggling, theft and murder to name a few of their activities. They are organized into cells with limited knowledge of other cells, not unlike terrorist cells, and they are extremely paranoid. The myth that all preservers are good is an illusion.
#4
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 01, 2005 3:46:35
one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it?

I've always allowed evil preservers in my campaigns. I disallow good defilers, as I feel that the very power that defilers use is an innately corruptive influence, and at most, a defiler could attempt to justify their actions - however that doesn't necessarily make them good. They could concievably be neutral, though.

But an Evil Preserver - easily done. You can use preserver magic for destructive ends. You just don't want to put the entire planet at risk. There are many kinds of evil in the world.
#5
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 01, 2005 5:29:18 Preservers can be egoistic, greedy, lying, murdering, thieving, enslaving, raiding etc., just as everybody else. I believe D&D defines that as evil.
#6
seker
Jul 01, 2005 7:43:13 another thing to look at.... a evil preserver could easily be just one trying to cast in hiding. After all, you don't leave circles of ash wherever you go if you preserve.

I know if I were a wizard in darksun, the angry mob who stones people who defile to death is a darn good reason to preserve. It is just easier to hide if you are a preserver.
#7
flip
Jul 01, 2005 8:44:58
one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it?

As others have said, while defiling is inherently non-good, there is nothing inherently good about preserving. One can easily justify the decision not to defile as one of calculated self-preservation. It does you no good to destroy your energy source, while announcing your presence to every potential lynch mob in a one mile radius.

And, as Jon has pointed out, and I will reiterate, the Veiled Alliance is not a good organization. They are dedicated to protecting their members, yes, but they are also known to wage wars in streets filled with innocent bystanders, to hunt and assasinate enemies, be they defilers, templars, or simply a "misguided" druid. If you're not a preserver-member, you're an asset to be used and sacrificed if necessary. They smuggle, they lie, they cheat and they'll kill you in order to protect their secrets.
#8
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 01, 2005 14:57:21 I personally have considered making an area where there is a neutral Dragon and an evil Avangion in a power struggle - forcing players to pick far more difficuly sides than usual.
#9
ruhl-than_sage
Jul 01, 2005 16:39:17
I personally have considered making an area where there is a neutral Dragon and an evil Avangion in a power struggle - forcing players to pick far more difficuly sides than usual.

That's an interesting thought, but I think that the nature of Avangions is a little different than simple Preservers. And while I could readily except a Neutral Defiler, I find the idea of a Neutral Dragon almost too hard to swallow. Neutrality doesn't lend itself to well in my mind to consciously rejecting the path of life in order to become an agent of mass destruction.
#10
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 01, 2005 16:58:17
That's an interesting thought, but I think that the nature of Avangions is a little different than simple Preservers. And while I could readily except a Neutral Defiler, I find the idea of a Neutral Dragon almost too hard to swallow. Neutrality doesn't lend itself to well in my mind to consciously rejecting the path of life in order to become an agent of mass destruction.

Well, like others had commented to me before on the subject, there could be many circumstances that lead a Neutral Defiler to become a Dragon. And, some of these circumstances could be for the "greater good". Now, good intentions won't make an evil existence good, I see the two effectively balancing out at Neutral, but with strong implications to heading straight to evil. Basically, the Dragon in question wouldn't be very far along in their process at all, like Stage-1, for instance. Effectively and technically a Dragon, but not totally slipped down the wrong path. There also is the idea that a Neutral Dragon would eventually seek redemption (ala Keltis, who may have been Evil, but guilt built in him, making him shift to Neutral). So, it would be rare - an I'd say that further progress down the Dragon path of spells, would invariably twist someone into utter evil.

Avangions, however, can once again run the gambit on alignments. I have no problem with envisioning an evil Avangion. If you just take the name, and rewrite it to Avenger.... which then can bring up ideas of a being seeking vengeance on the world, the Evil Avangion could see that the world is a corupt place, and then he begins justifying evil actions, which in his mind, would be for what he deems is the "greater good", in a very machiavellian sort of manner.
#11
Pennarin
Jul 01, 2005 17:03:12 Its more plausible that an evil bastard becomes a dragon and later sees its alignment shifts towards neutrality, then new alignment allowing the dragon to realize that its actions up to that point may not have been for the greater good of Athas, from which realisation may or may not ensue a redemption.

This is, I believe, the events that occured for Keltis.
#12
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 01, 2005 22:11:19
Its more plausible that an evil bastard becomes a dragon and later sees its alignment shifts towards neutrality, then new alignment allowing the dragon to realize that its actions up to that point may not have been for the greater good of Athas, from which realisation may or may not ensue a redemption.

This is, I believe, the events that occured for Keltis.

Which to me means that a Dragon could concievably be Neutral in the good-evil axis. I don't see them ever being good - once again, because Dragons are very corrupt beings. And I see a Neutral dragon being more or less self-absorbed, and rather close to the Evil side of things, but still, they are potentially Neutral.
#13
ruhl-than_sage
Jul 01, 2005 23:21:27 You do make good arguments, I guess it all depends on how you percieve/define alignments. I personally see the act of defiling itself as an evil one and the transformation into a dragon as a nearly irreversable taint. I can definately see some Dragons being much more neutral than others, Hammanu for instance (especially as portrayed in the novels). I quess it all comes down to your own interpretation of the line between good and evil.
#14
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2005 23:28:45 Thanks everyone for you insights. I started reading the prism pentad again. I just finished the part in Verdant Passage where the Crimson Knight in UnderTyr allowed Ktandeo into the temple, but would not allow Agis. I kind of reinforced my misconception that preservers were not evil. After reading everyone's thoughts on the matter, I have decided to let the player know that his can be an evil preserver.
#15
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 02, 2005 2:54:54
You do make good arguments, I guess it all depends on how you percieve/define alignments. I personally see the act of defiling itself as an evil one and the transformation into a dragon as a nearly irreversable taint. I can definately see some Dragons being much more neutral than others, Hammanu for instance (especially as portrayed in the novels). I quess it all comes down to your own interpretation of the line between good and evil.

Well, it's also important to note that I don't use standard Alignments in my own campaigns, preferring the d20 Modern variation of Allegiences (and I have Hamanu as Lawful/Evil/Urik, as opposed to Nibenay's Evil/Lawful, as the order is important). And Hamanu, as portrayed in Rise and Fall, may appear more neutral - however remember that the book was written in Hamanu's hand. And Evil tends to justify itself - even if it is just to color everything to be more Neutral. A great many of the world's most vile and evil people, truly believe that what they did was for the greater good -- which is known as "the ends justify the means". However, it is important to note that Hamanu himself does not claim to be good. He even explains that he knows he is utterly, and irrevokably evil - that he has slaughtered thousands for the pure pleasure of it, among other atrocities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2005 0:29:56	one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it?
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2005 1:07:38	one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it? One of my NPCs at the moment is a NE elven wizard. She is a preserver, but she has defiled in the past. She doesn't want to become a defiler though, despite the power it would give her, because she enjoys the rush of defiling too much and doesn't want to give the magic that much of a hold over her. Technically, preservers can be of any alignment (while defilers are limited to neutral or evil alignments). The best reason for an evil wizard to still be a preserver though is common sense. As a defiler, any time they cast a spell, any spell, they would literally be helping to kill an already dying world. Even an evil wizard could see that doing so is not conducive to their personal survival. Thus, an evil wizard could easily still be a preserver out of enlightened self-interest.
#3 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 01, 2005 2:18:49	The Veiled Alliance is not a good organization. The closest parallel I can think of is a terrorist network that engages in smuggling, theft and murder to name a few of their activities. They are organized into cells with limited knowledge of other cells, not unlike terrorist cells, and they are extremely paranoid. The myth that all preservers are good is an illusion.
#4 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 01, 2005 3:46:35	one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it? I've always allowed evil preservers in my campaigns. I disallow good defilers, as I feel that the very power that defilers use is an innately corruptive influence, and at most, a defiler could attempt to justify their actions - however that doesn't necessarily make them good. They could concievably be neutral, though. But an Evil Preserver - easily done. You can use preserver magic for destructive ends. You just don't want to put the entire planet at risk. There are many kinds of evil in the world.
#5 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 01, 2005 5:29:18	Preservers can be egoistic, greedy, lying, murdering, thieving, enslaving, raiding etc., just as everybody else. I believe D&D defines that as evil.
#6 seker Jul 01, 2005 7:43:13	another thing to look at.... a evil preserver could easily be just one trying to cast in hiding. After all, you don't leave circles of ash wherever you go if you preserve. I know if I were a wizard in darksun, the angry mob who stones people who defile to death is a darn good reason to preserve. It is just easier to hide if you are a preserver.
#7 flip Jul 01, 2005 8:44:58	one of my players is toying with the idea of having his next character be a Preserver, but with an evil alignment. I hadn't really given this much thought before. I kinda always saw preservers as having a good or neutral alignment, given that good and preserving are of similar philosophy as are defiling and evil. I am considering letting him run with it if he can come up with a valid reason why a preserver would be evil. Has anyone else encountered this? If so, how did you handle it? As others have said, while defiling is inherently non-good, there is nothing inherently good about preserving. One can easily justify the decision not to defile as one of calculated self-preservation. It does you no good to destroy your energy source, while announcing your presence to every potential lynch mob in a one mile radius. And, as Jon has pointed out, and I will reiterate, the Veiled Alliance is not a good organization. They are dedicated to protecting their members, yes, but they are also known to wage wars in streets filled with innocent bystanders, to hunt and assasinate enemies, be they defilers, templars, or simply a "misguided" druid. If you're not a preserver-member, you're an asset to be used and sacrificed if necessary. They smuggle, they lie, they cheat and they'll kill you in order to protect their secrets.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 01, 2005 14:57:21	I personally have considered making an area where there is a neutral Dragon and an evil Avangion in a power struggle - forcing players to pick far more difficuly sides than usual.
#9 ruhl-than_sage Jul 01, 2005 16:39:17	I personally have considered making an area where there is a neutral Dragon and an evil Avangion in a power struggle - forcing players to pick far more difficuly sides than usual. That's an interesting thought, but I think that the nature of Avangions is a little different than simple Preservers. And while I could readily except a Neutral Defiler, I find the idea of a Neutral Dragon almost too hard to swallow. Neutrality doesn't lend itself to well in my mind to consciously rejecting the path of life in order to become an agent of mass destruction.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 01, 2005 16:58:17	That's an interesting thought, but I think that the nature of Avangions is a little different than simple Preservers. And while I could readily except a Neutral Defiler, I find the idea of a Neutral Dragon almost too hard to swallow. Neutrality doesn't lend itself to well in my mind to consciously rejecting the path of life in order to become an agent of mass destruction. Well, like others had commented to me before on the subject, there could be many circumstances that lead a Neutral Defiler to become a Dragon. And, some of these circumstances could be for the "greater good". Now, good intentions won't make an evil existence good, I see the two effectively balancing out at Neutral, but with strong implications to heading straight to evil. Basically, the Dragon in question wouldn't be very far along in their process at all, like Stage-1, for instance. Effectively and technically a Dragon, but not totally slipped down the wrong path. There also is the idea that a Neutral Dragon would eventually seek redemption (ala Keltis, who may have been Evil, but guilt built in him, making him shift to Neutral). So, it would be rare - an I'd say that further progress down the Dragon path of spells, would invariably twist someone into utter evil. Avangions, however, can once again run the gambit on alignments. I have no problem with envisioning an evil Avangion. If you just take the name, and rewrite it to Avenger.... which then can bring up ideas of a being seeking vengeance on the world, the Evil Avangion could see that the world is a corupt place, and then he begins justifying evil actions, which in his mind, would be for what he deems is the "greater good", in a very machiavellian sort of manner.
#11 Pennarin Jul 01, 2005 17:03:12	Its more plausible that an evil bastard becomes a dragon and later sees its alignment shifts towards neutrality, then new alignment allowing the dragon to realize that its actions up to that point may not have been for the greater good of Athas, from which realisation may or may not ensue a redemption. This is, I believe, the events that occured for Keltis.
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 01, 2005 22:11:19	Its more plausible that an evil bastard becomes a dragon and later sees its alignment shifts towards neutrality, then new alignment allowing the dragon to realize that its actions up to that point may not have been for the greater good of Athas, from which realisation may or may not ensue a redemption. This is, I believe, the events that occured for Keltis. Which to me means that a Dragon could concievably be Neutral in the good-evil axis. I don't see them ever being good - once again, because Dragons are very corrupt beings. And I see a Neutral dragon being more or less self-absorbed, and rather close to the Evil side of things, but still, they are potentially Neutral.
#13 ruhl-than_sage Jul 01, 2005 23:21:27	You do make good arguments, I guess it all depends on how you percieve/define alignments. I personally see the act of defiling itself as an evil one and the transformation into a dragon as a nearly irreversable taint. I can definately see some Dragons being much more neutral than others, Hammanu for instance (especially as portrayed in the novels). I quess it all comes down to your own interpretation of the line between good and evil.
#14 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2005 23:28:45	Thanks everyone for you insights. I started reading the prism pentad again. I just finished the part in Verdant Passage where the Crimson Knight in UnderTyr allowed Ktandeo into the temple, but would not allow Agis. I kind of reinforced my misconception that preservers were not evil. After reading everyone's thoughts on the matter, I have decided to let the player know that his can be an evil preserver.
#15 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 02, 2005 2:54:54	You do make good arguments, I guess it all depends on how you percieve/define alignments. I personally see the act of defiling itself as an evil one and the transformation into a dragon as a nearly irreversable taint. I can definately see some Dragons being much more neutral than others, Hammanu for instance (especially as portrayed in the novels). I quess it all comes down to your own interpretation of the line between good and evil. Well, it's also important to note that I don't use standard Alignments in my own campaigns, preferring the d20 Modern variation of Allegiences (and I have Hamanu as Lawful/Evil/Urik, as opposed to Nibenay's Evil/Lawful, as the order is important). And Hamanu, as portrayed in Rise and Fall, may appear more neutral - however remember that the book was written in Hamanu's hand. And Evil tends to justify itself - even if it is just to color everything to be more Neutral. A great many of the world's most vile and evil people, truly believe that what they did was for the greater good -- which is known as "the ends justify the means". However, it is important to note that Hamanu himself does not claim to be good. He even explains that he knows he is utterly, and irrevokably evil - that he has slaughtered thousands for the pure pleasure of it, among other atrocities.