How would you see an Athasian Lion?
I see the modern Athasian Lion as a killer of the wastes, the true master predator among the "normal" animals of Athas, far more potent and clever than the Kirre, Tagster, or Tigone.
As to changes in appearance, I'm not sure. Possibily replacing much of their fur with yellow/brown scales, except for their iconic mane and Tuft at the end of their tail.
Either or, both would be great and really ferocious beasts.
Lions were indeed already part of DS2e canon - see the list of acceptable creatures in Dragon #173 - and have been incorporated into DS3e through the same list in ToA. The lion also appears in the DS2e encounter charts, where it is listed as "common lion". I have no issue with lions appearing in DS - I am, however, unconvinced that they should be any different to regular lions. Desires for an uber-psylion aside, there doesn't seem to me to be any precedent for making them anything other than common lions. As Kalthandrix mentions, a dire lion with the phrenic template would do fine for a buffed-up version of the creature. Just my own opinion on the matter, mind you...
I agree. If anything an "Athasian Beast" template could be developed that could be applied to any and all "normal" animals from the MM that a DM wants to port over to their DS game. The template could increase the animal's natural AC, Str and/or Con, as well increased base nat attack damage die and hit dice.
I agree. If anything an "Athasian Beast" template could be developed that could be applied to any and all "normal" animals from the MM that a DM wants to port over to their DS game. The template could increase the animal's natural AC, Str and/or Con, as well increased base nat attack damage die and hit dice.
Yes - this was raised some time back (maybe even on the old boards - can't remember). I wouldn't be averse to an "Athasian Beast" template. It might allow for the things Sysane mentioned, plus one special ability (a Hidden Talent, a poisonous bite, projectile spines or something relatively low-key yet effective like that).
Yes - this was raised some time back (maybe even on the old boards - can't remember). I wouldn't be averse to an "Athasian Beast" template. It might allow for the things Sysane mentioned, plus one special ability (a Hidden Talent, a poisonous bite, projectile spines or something relatively low-key yet effective like that).
That is a great idea if anyone cares for my
. I think the the bonus' from the template should be leveled with the creature, kinda like a moving scale. So a 1 HD creature would maybe get a +1 to natural armor, and a +2 to Str and Con, and perhaps low-light or dark vision. While a 5 HD creature would get a +2 or 3 to natural armor, a +4 to Str and Con, +2 to Int, and the bonus feat improved natural attack.
The reason for the HD-bases progression would be to show that those creatures higher on the food chain have become much more advanced.
The Phrenic template is a good basis for adjusting a regualr Lion, but I think that the powers that any given creature gets when you apply the template should be choosen (at equalvilent levels), instead of merely applied from the list that they give you. I think its kind of stupid to have every Phrenic creature have Force Screen and Precognative Defence.
Maybe, at least for the DS material, the Phrenic template could be adjusted to list multiple powers, say 5 or 6, with the option of choose 2 or whatever from the list. The purpose of the template it to kinda standardize the creature receiving it, but I think that this option would work in that the choice of powers is somewhat limited, but not every creature with the template will have exactly the same powers.
That at least changes things up a little. Perhaps someone could come up with a Psionic Beast (or Psionic Animal) template based on this idea
I would be happy to do this little project if no one objects. I will kick some ideas around and hopefully have something posted by the weeks end.
The powers listed under the phrenic template should be used as a guide line as to the powers a creature can have IMO. DM's shouldn't feel that they're locked into the powers that the template has listed.
I would be happy to do this little project if no one objects. I will kick some ideas around and hopefully have something posted by the weeks end.
Go for it
Should be cool to see.Maybe, at least for the DS material, the Phrenic template could be adjusted to list multiple powers, say 5 or 6, with the option of choose 2 or whatever from the list. The purpose of the template it to kinda standardize the creature receiving it, but I think that this option would work in that the choice of powers is somewhat limited, but not every creature with the template will have exactly the same powers.
Niiiice, here's a treat just for that idea
More will come when I see the Athasian lion, yes? 
Niiiice, here's a treat just for that idea
I have some material scribbled out, and after looking at the phrenic template, I have decided to kind of go slightly in a different direction. The phrenic temp. is for making creatures psionicly powerful, while the Athasian Beast template I am looking at putting together has more ability stat increases and not as much psionics (I think they will have a total of 11 power- 3 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th, and 1 6th, for creatures with HD between 1-20) mostly drawing from the psychic warrior power lists. Each level of power will have several choices to select from to make more custom creatures.
When I get the template finished, I will post it, along with an Athasian Lion (5 HD) and Advanced Athasian Dire Lion (19 HD) for people to see how then template looks and works on a creature.
ATHASIAN LION
Large Animal (Augmented Animal, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+7) and bite +4 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, improved grab, rake 1d6+3, psi-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, naturally psionic
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +2
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +8, Hide +4*, Listen +5, Move Silently +12, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Run, Improved Natural Weapon (claw)B
Environment: Scrub plains or stony barrens
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pride (6–10)
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +2
An Athasian lion is a creature of terrible fury and majestic beauty. It has a body that ranges from 5 to 8 feet long and weighs 380 to 600 pounds. Their hide is covered with very fine scales that are about 2 to 3 inches in length and have a sulfuric-yellow coloring. The Athasian lion’s head is wreathed with a long black mane, and its tail is tipped with the same wiry hair. The large beast’s yellow eyes posses an intelligence and cunning not found in most animals
Females are slightly smaller and do not have manes, but use the same statistics.
Combat
Pounce (Ex): If an Athasian lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an Athasian lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +9 melee, damage 1d6+3.
Psi-like Abilities (Sp): The following abilities are all manifested as a 5th level manifester; 3/day each offensive precognition (+3 insight bonus), thought shield (PR 15 for 3 rounds), wild leap (ds)(+10 to jump check), and 1/day force screen (+5 shield bonus to AC).
Naturally Psionic: An Athasian lion has 1 bonus power point
Skills: Athasian lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +13.
Its looking up real!
Any thoughts- like I said, I really do not know if it changes or not!
I could be wrong- but don't you keep the base creatures original HD when applying templates. I have never made one before and most of the ones I have looked at usually state whether the HD changes. I just kept it the same because the phrenic template did not modify the base creatures HD.
Any thoughts- like I said, I really do not know if it changes or not!
When a template is applied that changes a creature's type it takes on all qualities of the new creature type. So an animal with your template would have the follow changes to it as well per the SRD:
[HTML]Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
Features: A magical beast has the following features.
—10-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
—Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Proficient with its natural weapons only.
—Proficient with no armor.
—Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.[/HTML]
Hit Dice and Hit Points: Most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a monster has, but some do. Some templates change the size of a creature’s Hit Dice (usually by changing the creature type). A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged.
If the Hit Dice entry in a template description is missing, Hit Dice and hit points do not change unless the creature’s Constitution modifier changes.
So I basically think they are saying that the change in HD is directly tied to the specific language in the template regardless of the new type the creature has.
Here is the research I pulled up on the HD matter from the SRD.
So I basically think they are saying that the change in HD is directly tied to the specific language in the template regardless of the new type the creature has.
The template itself isn't changing the HD per say but the changing of the creature's type would.
From the templates I've seen that change the creatures base type it usually lists the change in the template itself. I haven't seen one that changes the creature type that hasn't list the change in HD.
The creatures with the Athasian template are still aminals, just slightly better then regular ones.
So how about a change in the template that states that the type is now Augmented Creature (Psionic). I do not know if there is such a thing, but I was never very happy wih the creature becoming a magical beast in the first place- I basically copied that idea from the phrenic template, but I do not think it fits with this one.
The creatures with the Athasian template are still aminals, just slightly better then regular ones.
You would need to word that the creature only gains the "psionic" subtype and that it is still the base creature type. I myself would like to see it change to a magical beast though. Increased HD is a good thing IMO. Athasian critter's are tough! ;)
for you :D Anyone else totally for having the creature type stay magical beast (psionic) or having the base creature type take on an augmented type with the subtype psionic?
You should note the bonus feat in the stat block with a (B) after the name, and change the associated stats to match the Magical Beast type. Also, it looks like the skill points are one point short - I might be missing something there, though (it's getting late here ;) )
Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 5d10+15 (42hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40ft.
Armor Class: 19 (+4 Dex, -1 size, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+16
Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+7) and bite +6 melee (1d8+3)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, improved grab, rake 1d6+3, psi-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, naturally psionic
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +8, Hide +4*, Listen +5, Move Silently +12, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Run, Improved Natural Weapon (claw)(B)
etc etc...
Keep at it - it's looking pretty solid
.It's looking good, Kalthandrix - the template is coming together nicely (I wanted to see it in actual use before commenting). Regarding the creature's type, the template pretty much requires it to become Magical Beast, as it gives the creature an Int bonus - no animal can have Int above 2.
I would actually prefer that the template didn't grant any Int bumps. At the very most I wouldn't want to see it give more that a +1 Int. Thats just me though. I'd like to see the Athasian beast stay just that, a beast
I would actually prefer that the template didn't grant any Int bumps. At the very most I wouldn't want to see it give more that a +1 Int. Thats just me though. I'd like to see the Athasian beast stay just that, a beast
The overall purpose of the Int increases were to show that the creature has evolved beyond a mere normal animal, and with converting a normal animal with this template, their Int would never be high enough to cause too many issues. But perhaps with the increase in Wis, this would show enough of an awakening of the mind so to speak, that would give Athasian creatures a higher level of cunning.
Thoughts??
The overall purpose of the Int increases were to show that the creature has evolved beyond a mere normal animal, and with converting a normal animal with this template, their Int would never be high enough to cause too many issues. But perhaps with the increase in Wis, this would show enough of an awakening of the mind so to speak, that would give Athasian creatures a higher level of cunning.
Thoughts??
I think the psi-like abilities show that they have evolved. I really wouldn't give more than a +2 to Int regardless of how many HD. I wouldn't allow more than a +4 to Wis either. The highest I would allow in any of the stat bumps would be a +6.
Me thinks I should post this under the actual template thread instead. :P
I think the psi-like abilities show that they have evolved. I really would give more than a +2 to Int regardless of how many HD. I wouldn't allow more than a +4 to Wis either. The highest I would allow in any of the stat bumps would be a +6.
Even a +2 to Int is going to make it a Magical Beast, as will a +1 Int for any animal with Int 2. My own preference would go towards having no Int bonus at all (but that's mainly so it would fall in line with the Athasian Bear in ToA) and restrict the template to being applied to animals and plants (and maybe some vermin) only.
Even a +2 to Int is going to make it a Magical Beast, as will a +1 Int for any animal with Int 2. My own preference would go towards having no Int bonus at all (but that's mainly so it would fall in line with the Athasian Bear in ToA) and restrict the template to being applied to animals only.
True, but I'm looking for it to be a magical beast over it just staying an animal. However, if people are looking to keep it an animal then I would say no Int bonus, and that it have an increased Wis or/and Chr. The beast's psi-like abilities are Chr based anyhow, so not having a Int bonus is no big deal.
On a side note: I never bought the idea of Animals having only an intelligence of 1 or 2, though i have to say. What about Chimpanzees and Gorillas they would have to have an intelligence of at least 3 or 4, some of the smarter ones might even be a 5 or 6. I mean they can learn sign language. And Ravens could easily have an intelligence of 3 or 4 as well, they can solve complicated problems they've never encountered before on the 1st or 2nd try. Dolphins are animals too, and they have complex social structures that change on a regular basis forming and reforming into different groups. They might even have their own fully formed language, and if not its very close. They can be trained in many more and more complicated tricks then other animals and even solve simple math problems and identify objects be specified properties, as can the grey parrot which can talk in human languages as well.
So I think that the limit of Int 2 for an animal is an artificially low ceiling, especially considering that Humans are animals too.
The Klar, and offshoot of the original bear, is a "Magical Beast (Psionic)".
On the other hand, if these are mutated oddities, then druids might have no special ability with them.
PS This applies to rangers too.
For a full scan of the template, see the Athasian creature template.
Any other thoughts are welcome :D
BTW, I do not see why a druid or ranger would not be able to interact with an animal modified with the template. I think that the basic animals as companions are at a serious disadvantage on Athas and are more of a liability then a bonus for those classes allows to have one (again, on Athas only).
BTW, I do not see why a druid or ranger would not be able to interact with an animal modified with the template. I think that the basic animals as companions are at a serious disadvantage on Athas and are more of a liability then a bonus for those classes allows to have one (again, on Athas only).
If we're talking about the rangers and druids wild empathy ability, it still works on magical beasts with an Int score of 1 or 2 with a -4 to the character's diplomacy check.
On a side note: I never bought the idea of Animals having only an intelligence of 1 or 2, though i have to say ....snip...So I think that the limit of Int 2 for an animal is an artificially low ceiling, especially considering that Humans are animals too.
I'd have to agree with you there. Unfortunately, those are the rules we have to work with. Ho hum... ;)
Here is my vision of an Athasian lion using the Athasian creature template I made. I think that this beast would fit in well on Athas. I took the format and original stats directly from the SRD and then applied the template (see sig for that).Let me know what you think!
Love it! You added almost all the psi-like powers I would've too. Here's your
(Yeah, I know it's a bit late, but being a couple hundred miles away from my computer does that
)Love it! You added almost all the psi-like powers I would've too. Here's your
(Yeah, I know it's a bit late, but being a couple hundred miles away from my computer does that
Thanks Khaine. There has been talk on the board of just using Dire animals or those with the phrenic template, but in alot of cases I think that they would not really be appropriate. I think that the template I made adds to the animal, but does not make it over powerful.
Thanks Khaine. There has been talk on the board of just using Dire animals or those with the phrenic template, but in alot of cases I think that they would not really be appropriate. I think that the template I made adds to the animal, but does not make it over powerful.
I agree totally. This template provides a comfortable middle ground between normal animals (aka lunch) and the "hyper-powered" dire and phrenic templates. It does its job perfectly
I'll add that if you want it to be a magical beast, then I would call it something other than a lion and do the klar thing and change its appearance some and maybe beef it up a tad more.
Just some suggestions.
Going to have to agree with Kam on this one too, I would like to see it stay an animal.
I'll add that if you want it to be a magical beast, then I would call it something other than a lion and do the klar thing and change its appearance some and maybe beef it up a tad more.
Just some suggestions.
I did keep the type animal because I did not like the idea of normal animals going hrough such a drastic change. Check out the Athasian Creature Template too when you get the time- I really think it could be applied to all of the normal version of animals from the MM to give them the right flavor for Athas.