I've been running a Dark Sun campaign for a few sessions now and I used Terrors of Athas to do so, seeing how it saved me lots of time converting monsters. However, I can't help but find some of the choices of the conversions to be somewhat puzzling, and often I had to change creature stats on the fly. Some changes might be volontary, but I have a feeling some are omissions.
So, here is some feedback:
Hunting Cactus: Not sure I understand the spine attack. The stats block says 10 spine attacks as a single attack. is it 10 seperate attacks for 1d3 each or is it a single "cluster" attack dealing 1d3? Also, the creature's entry talk about the cacti having 1d20+10 spine pods (each having 10 spines to attack with). Does that mean a cacti could make 30 times 10 spine attacks per round as a full attack action?
Mountain Stalker: Could have been huge, but ok. However, probably not a CR 8, since my 4th level party, who were supposed to run from one of those, really wooped its ass. (half-giant smash good :P)
Razorwing: The attacks of this creature are kind of weird. It has a bite attack, and 2 claw attacks, but no wing attack! The text description in the document even describes the creature attacking with its wings, as its name implies.
Tyrian and Dagolar slimes: Man, these things are freakishly strong! in the game, you could beat 3 or 4 at a time with a 4th level party! I reduced them a lot for my campaign.
Cha'trang: Now huge? was medium before. Also, tethered darts can now target anywhere instead of up. Can be ok though.
Crodlu: Should have the run feat IMO. (like horses do)
Fael(TotDL): Bite attack has no defined means of delivery. It is not a standard attack, and said to have a save in the special attacks section, but I'm not sure how its supposed to work.
Thanks for the feedback - this comes at the perfect time, as I am getting busy with the next ToA revision. I'll have a look and post some replies shortly (busy with some other stuf right now).
In fact, if anyone has any feedback or questions on ToA, stick them in this thread. I'll dig through the old pages and have a hunt for the older thread on the same topic and get the info from there posted in here as well...
Is there going to be art work added to any of the ToA versions in the future? My players keep asking me for pics, and I end up having t lug around all of my old 2e books to show them what they creature looks like.
.Hunting Cactus: Not sure I understand the spine attack. The stats block says 10 spine attacks as a single attack. is it 10 seperate attacks for 1d3 each or is it a single "cluster" attack dealing 1d3? Also, the creature's entry talk about the cacti having 1d20+10 spine pods (each having 10 spines to attack with). Does that mean a cacti could make 30 times 10 spine attacks per round as a full attack action?
As a standard action, the cactus can attack with a single spine for d3-1 plus poison. As a full attack, it can attack with up to 10 spines, each dealing d3-1 plus poison. The cactus can only fire spines from a single pod each round (this needs to be clarified in the text). It has lots of pods so that it doesn’t run out of spine ammo. There should also probably be a note about how long it takes the cactus to regrow spines that it has fired at its targets. And something about capes, too.
Mountain Stalker: Could have been huge, but ok. However, probably not a CR 8, since my 4th level party, who were supposed to run from one of those, really wooped its ass. (half-giant smash good )
Well, it’s height of 10-15 feet keeps it in the Large category, unfortunately. I agree that CR 8 looks to high. 5 might be a better choice, though. (CRs are one of the areas where we welcome any playtest feedback – hard game data is the best kind).
Razorwing: The attacks of this creature are kind of weird. It has a bite attack, and 2 claw attacks, but no wing attack! The text description in the document even describes the creature attacking with its wings, as its name implies.
I think that you are working from an old release of ToA. The latest version has this amended to wing.
Tyrian and Dagolar slimes: Man, these things are freakishly strong! in the game, you could beat 3 or 4 at a time with a 4th level party! I reduced them a lot for my campaign.
Nyt converted these but I assume that he did a fairly close port over from the 2e material. I haven’t seen the original 2e stats (never played the PC games, unfortunately).
Cha'trang: Now huge? was medium before. Also, tethered darts can now target anywhere instead of up. Can be ok though.
Yes, they should probably be medium – not sure what happened there. The latest version of ToA does state that the spikes can only be fired at airborne creatures though.
Crodlu: Should have the run feat IMO. (like horses do)
That’s a cool idea – may well use that.
Fael(TotDL): Bite attack has no defined means of delivery. It is not a standard attack, and said to have a save in the special attacks section, but I'm not sure how its supposed to work.
Again, this sounds like you are using an old version of TotDL. The fael now has an ability called maw that has an 18-20/x3 crit and doesn’t involve a save of any kind.
.And something about capes, too.
Hehe. For those who're missing the jest, read this.
Psurlons have already been pretty well covered in Monster Manual II and so there's no real need to do another version of them.
Psurlons are reprinted - with appropriate art, finaly!! - in the Monster section (p. 162) of Lords of Madness, and I believe are updated as well. Plus, a section of their entry has a psionic version for each sub-race.
Yeah, the picture for the psurlons in Lords of Madness is finally worthy of that race. Its a must see, really :D
Well, it’s height of 10-15 feet keeps it in the Large category, unfortunately. I agree that CR 8 looks to high. 5 might be a better choice, though. (CRs are one of the areas where we welcome any playtest feedback – hard game data is the best kind).
I think that the issue here is more to do with the monster being lopsided in its abilities. Meaning it can deal out tons of damage in one round, but is easy to hit and doesn't have the raw hit points to stand up to a half-giant who can likewise deal out massive damage.
The max damage this creature can deal in one round without any criticals is: 184 points.
The average it will deal if it hits with all of its attacks in a full attack action is: 127 points.
If it only hits with half of its attacks it still deals 63.5 points of damage on average, enough easily kill most 6th level characters in one round.
All this is without considering the fact that it has cleave also!
I've noticed that their is a real problem with lopsided monsters in the ToA, too many monsters can deal out far more damage then they can possibly take. If two of these things went at, it would just be a matter of iniative to determine which one would die, and it would probably kill its brother in one round. I mean it only needs a 3 to hit itself on its 1st four attacks and an 8 on the second four.
If a monster can kill itself in one round, more often then not, then its far too attack heavy. This thing is easy to kill if you get the drop on it, because of its almost complete lack of any defensive abilities (it basically just a bag of 85 hit points), but if it gets the drop on you it could easily kill a party member or two without them getting any chance to even run away.
Question more then feebback, but...
Is there going to be art work added to any of the ToA versions in the future? My players keep asking me for pics, and I end up having t lug around all of my old 2e books to show them what they creature looks like.
Hey Kalthandrix, you might want to check out the gallery here -http://www.geocities.com/tticd/
It'll solve your problem. I promise.
I think that the issue here is more to do with the monster being lopsided in its abilities. Meaning it can deal out tons of damage in one round, but is easy to hit and doesn't have the raw hit points to stand up to a half-giant who can likewise deal out massive damage.
I've noticed that their is a real problem with lopsided monsters in the ToA, too many monsters can deal out far more damage then they can possibly take. If two of these things went at, it would just be a matter of iniative to determine which one would die, and it would probably kill its brother in one round. I mean it only needs a 3 to hit itself on its 1st four attacks and an 8 on the second four.
That's pretty much what happened in my campaign. The Stalker had a lower initiative than the HG ftr1 and the dwarven psywar4. Half giant* hit it for like 30 points of damage followed by psychic warrior hitting for like 10. 2 other characters run around, one dealing minor damage. Then stalker rolled bad attacks and only one hit the HG. Next round HG finished it off.
I must point out however than this HG is really a killing machine:
- Put an 18 in Strength, bringing it to 26.
- Has a large Greataxe (deals 3d6 damage)
- Has Power Attack feat
- Has Wild Talent feat (hidden talent) with Expansion power.
That gives you a HG which has a 15 ft. reach which deals 4d6+17 points of damage per attack, or the amazing 12d6 + 51 on a crit! That my friend sends puny human guards flying when breaking out of the pens... ;)
...until, of course, it meets a templar with a few mind-affecting spells...
I really like the Lord of Madness book- it provides some great material that is very useable in any world setting. And the art is pretty sick too
Loved the beholder anatomy bit. It adds some depth to my beholder pimp character in a friend's epic game. :P
I must point out however than this HG is really a killing machine:
- Put an 18 in Strength, bringing it to 26.
- Has a large Greataxe (deals 3d6 damage)
- Has Power Attack feat
- Has Wild Talent feat (hidden talent) with Expansion power.
That gives you a HG which has a 15 ft. reach which deals 4d6+17 points of damage per attack, or the amazing 12d6 + 51 on a crit! That my friend sends puny human guards flying when breaking out of the pens... ;)
...until, of course, it meets a templar with a few mind-affecting spells...
That tends to happen with Half-Giants, it's there low Will saves that are their downfall :evillaugh. In my game after the HG in the party was easily dominated by an evil undead and sent back after the party, my players realized how much of a liability it could be to have him around :D .
You can also, and I recommend, using his size against him whenever possible even in combat.
Nyt converted these but I assume that he did a fairly close port over from the 2e material. I haven’t seen the original 2e stats (never played the PC games, unfortunately).
For those I converted straight from the stat block and tweaked a little here and there.
I admit as well that the game makes them out to be pretty weak while they aren't really suppose to be.
Yes, they should probably be medium – not sure what happened there. The latest version of ToA does state that the spikes can only be fired at airborne creatures though.
Did I do that one? I can't remember. Not sure why I would make it huge though, I've slept since then.
It probably should be medium.
That’s a cool idea – may well use that.
Indeedy.
Woah...
An ioramh makes telekinetic combat maneuvers with a +0 bonus.
That's a freakin' good bonus, don't you think? :P
The SA Deaf isn't listed on the Ioramh stats also...
Yes, there will be artwork. Ideally, the next release of ToA should include art (primarily by the inestimable Dwelfstealer). Once all the edits and additions get stowed away, the artwork can be added and put in the right place and everything made all pretty and nice
Hi everyone,
I'm rather new to these boards as well, I'm starting up a Dark Sun campaign next week
I've been poring over all the work that's been done by enthusiasts on the net since Dark Sun was discontinued (and buying 6-7 of the original TSR books from rpgnow.com), and I must say I'm incredibly impressed with the amount and quality of work that's been done, my hat's off to all contributors involved in keeping this great world alive
Now that's out the way...I see on athas.org that Terrors of Athas is being updated and is scheduled for release in Q4. This is the update you're talking about here that has art in it as well right? Does it have art for every monster? Or to put it another way, will it be a waste of cash to buy the Dark Sun compendiums from rpgnow.com (and more importantly, waste of time in printing the pictures...)?
On a semi-related note, I've been browsing the net looking for good pictures of sandy wastes (mekillot, star, crescent etc), mountains, salt flats and so forth. Found quite a few good ones, but do any of you guys know a site that has TONS of pictures fitting for Athas collected in one place (besides Google image search that is)? I really think that letting the players actually see the amazing scenary of Athas is a big part of making the world come alive, thus my quest for the ultimate pics (although I've found some very good ones)
Hi everyone,
I'm rather new to these boards as well, I'm starting up a Dark Sun campaign next week
Welcome to Athas and thanks for the kind words! Wear a hat and stay away from the cacti :D...
Now that's out the way...I see on athas.org that Terrors of Athas is being updated and is scheduled for release in Q4. This is the update you're talking about here that has art in it as well right? Does it have art for every monster? Or to put it another way, will it be a waste of cash to buy the Dark Sun compendiums from rpgnow.com (and more importantly, waste of time in printing the pictures...)?
Yes, the Q4 update is the one that is being discussed in this thread. We have artwork for pretty much every monster, but we're not sure yet whether we're going to include all of it. It's likely that there will be pics for the vast majority of the monsters, but the final layout has not been decided yet. As I understand it, the 2 compendiums are only about $5.00 each, so you might as well have them. As good as our artwork is, some of the old stuff is just classic and is worth having just for the old DS flavour that oozes from it.
On a semi-related note, I've been browsing the net looking for good pictures of sandy wastes (mekillot, star, crescent etc), mountains, salt flats and so forth. Found quite a few good ones, but do any of you guys know a site that has TONS of pictures fitting for Athas collected in one place (besides Google image search that is)? I really think that letting the players actually see the amazing scenary of Athas is a big part of making the world come alive, thus my quest for the ultimate pics (although I've found some very good ones)
I've been collecting desert pictures as well, but haven't gotten around to posting them anywhere. Jon used to have some on his site and I think that a couple of other posters have some here and there as well...
I've been collecting desert pictures as well, but haven't gotten around to posting them anywhere. Jon used to have some on his site and I think that a couple of other posters have some here and there as well...
I've still got them, and I could add yours to my site as well, Kam - assuming they don't belong to someone else.
http://www.sederqvist.com/ao
On a semi-related note, I've been browsing the net looking for good pictures of sandy wastes (mekillot, star, crescent etc), mountains, salt flats and so forth. Found quite a few good ones, but do any of you guys know a site that has TONS of pictures fitting for Athas collected in one place (besides Google image search that is)? I really think that letting the players actually see the amazing scenary of Athas is a big part of making the world come alive, thus my quest for the ultimate pics (although I've found some very good ones)
If you ask these questions it's probably that you DONT know my web site? I have the HUGIEST, did I said huge, or HUGIEST page of darksun links of the net. :D
I have a few other interesting things on this web site as well. You should have a look at it.
See the link in my signature.
If you ask these questions it's probably that you DONT know my web site? I have the HUGIEST, did I said huge, or HUGIEST page of darksun links of the net. :D
I have a few other interesting things on this web site as well. You should have a look at it.
See the link in my signature.
Indeed I know your web site, in fact I've been through most (if not all) of the links on it and find it a tremendous resource, both in and of itself and through the massive link page
However, what I was searching for was a site with tons of pics like this. I've seen some nice art both on your page and on the link pages, but nothing similar to this. I've already found lots of pics through googling and such though, but one can never have to much of a good thing
If you can look past Grummore's shameless selfpromotion, you will find that his link page is indeed the largest to date.
Yeah it's indeed quite "hugie"...and what do you expect, he's french :D
As for more pictures, I think Nagipapy sent me some pics I haven't added to the site yet. I'll check that out.
Nice!
Yeah it's indeed quite "hugie"...and what do you expect, he's french :D
I beg to differ!
I am not French, I am a Québéçois! A french-Canadian or if you prefer, a french-canadian from Quebec or maybe a french-quebec man in Canada, or... ! :DI beg to differ!
Hehe ok, I beg pardon for my grave misrepresentation of your nationality
:DHehe ok, I beg pardon for my grave misrepresentation of your nationality
Damn righ, beg our mercy! Soon Norway will be bought by Quebec and we will enslave you all to create my P-Fleet! And I will be known as Emperor Pleinenarine!
Damn righ, beg our mercy! Soon Norway will be bought by Quebec and we will enslave you all to create my P-Fleet! And I will be known as Emperor Pleinenarine!
Looks like someone forgot to take his anti-megalomaniac pills today :D
Then again, chances are you'd make a better ruler than our government.... *ponders supporting Pennarin's bid for power*
/waits 'till someone catches the reference
Hmmm...
Damn righ, beg our mercy! Soon Norway will be bought by Quebec and we will enslave you all to create my P-Fleet! And I will be known as Emperor Pleinenarine!
Phear the Microsith... :P
Phear the Microsith... :P