Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 05, 2005 11:47:37	So thanks to a friend I have been reading some old Birthright books and I am wondering Why hasn't Wizards remade Birthright? I mean 3E became almost Mini dependant they have gone to all length to incorpate it. even back in 2E minis were almost required for a birthright game. A world in constant large scale wars, where the PC's were GOING to end involved in them. You need the mini's to keep track of large scale battles. Beyond that the "Blooded" abilities were an interesting addition to the game and would be again in 3E. Birthright was full of unique powers and monsters, full of flavor and action, So where is it today? I just read the planescape thread and well Birthright doesn't have the problems involved with planescape (no need to mention other campaign settings). I had thought Birthright was a great product, that I know wasn't a huge seller back then, but then it was a late product for TSR and none of their late prodcuts sold well.
#2 ranger_reg Jul 07, 2005 2:19:37	So thanks to a friend I have been reading some old Birthright books and I am wondering Why hasn't Wizards remade Birthright? The same reason they don't remade all of the other classic settings: They don't want to overextend themselves like TSR did. Besides, some of the settings were just two-year-old pet projects, like Al-Qadim and Birthright. If they won't revive Cerilia, I would be more interested in salvaging the BR political system.
#3 azuredragon Jul 07, 2005 5:38:55	Did you know that there is a converstion of B2nd edition's Birthright into 3rd edition? And it is free. The link for downloading it is www.birthright.net . But I think that the conversion isn't enough. People want more, they want full campaign setting! You know with storyline and geography desrcription. So why they won't do that for download, for free! Maymy it's only a dream, but a wonderfull dream. Also they could sell the license to another d20 publisher in order to publish it.
#4 noria_merfolk_mage Jul 07, 2005 5:49:07	Didn't Dragon kinda redo the realms system a while back?? It was kinda cool, if more themed as a DM tool than a player's kingdom system.
#5 brastan_dup Jul 08, 2005 11:42:16	Ya they did Issue #315 I think. It was and shot look and not what I would have liked. Although converting the Bloodline abilities into feats is a good idea. My issue with the setting was that it seemed hard to slip the PCs into it as everything was already set. I'm not going to argue against it, Birthright was a lovely setting that charted some less traveled concepts in D&D like ruling a kingdom. Now with Minis Handbook and Heros of Battle I think there are some very good reasons to revisit Birthright. The art work was great as well. The books were so colorful. Actually the political system can be lifted wholesale from the setting with little or no changes. It was never rooted in the mechanics of 2nd ED. as it was its own separate system. Dragon #293 is the magazine you want in that case. They revived the system for kingdom building in that one. Perhaps a PrC can me made for blooded hairs to increase their power much like the dragonmarked hair PrC in the Eberron setting. I'm actually tempted to incorporate the Birthright continent in to Eberron.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 08, 2005 11:52:58	wizards does not make many campaign settings they said before that is was one of why tsr is dead because they had a million settings and thier profits went down to have to support them.-basicly because wizards wont make $$$-mabye some 3rd party will take it over dude!
#7 board_rider Jul 08, 2005 13:17:40	I would be more interested in salvaging the BR political system. So would I...I remember my system well....;)
#8 Twiggly_the_Gnome Jul 08, 2005 18:26:05	If they won't revive Cerilia, I would be more interested in salvaging the BR political system. That's my hope as well. A more generalized version of those rules could serve as the core of a future genre series book. Heroes of Intrigue anyone?
#9 banshee Jul 08, 2005 20:58:00	The same reason they don't remade all of the other classic settings: They don't want to overextend themselves like TSR did. Besides, some of the settings were just two-year-old pet projects, like Al-Qadim and Birthright. If they won't revive Cerilia, I would be more interested in salvaging the BR political system. If you want the political system, you can get them in 3E. Either download the 3E conversion from www.birthright.net, or purchase "Fields of Blood" from Eden Studios. Either one of them would give you exactly what you need. Banshee
#10 ranger_reg Jul 09, 2005 2:14:46	...or purchase "Fields of Blood" from Eden Studios. Which I did. I like how they did it but felt they could do more with future supplements to the line. Unfortunately, Eden Studios is shifting away from d20 publishing so this book is just another short-term pet project, sitting next to my dusty Birthright products.
#11 noria_merfolk_mage Jul 09, 2005 7:38:40	Ya they did Issue #315 No that was just the bloodline rules. Once, well before issue 300, they did out realm rules in 3rd ed terms, using their Dungeoncraft Dinsosaur Land as an example.
#12 irdeggman Jul 09, 2005 7:45:07	WotC basically had the fee to purchase a setting set rather high. When we were putting together the playtest version of the BRCS (the thing referred to at Birthright.net) there was several groups interested in buying the setting. These groups determined the fee was too much for them to put out up front. IMO WotC "learned" from when they pretty much gave away Ravenloft that they didn't want to do that on a blanket level. I believe when they licensed out Gamma World it was a "limited" license and only good for X number of products. I have heard, unsubstantiated, that this number has been reached. And with the d20 Apocolypse supplement out for d20 Modern it looks like WotC is reclaiming at least part of the Gamma World/Metamorphisis Alpha history. WotC isn't going to support Birthright - they have made that pretty clear. Check the letter from Rich Baker in the front of the BRCS-playtest document. WotC isn't going to support other lines either. Some of those were more popular than Birthright. Dark Sun for one. And I agree with the opinion on the one-shot products - they are a real waste of time. While they give some ideas to DMs they really are only a tease and with no support to answer any questions that arise - well. . . . That was one of the reasons I was vehemently opposed to the Dragon/Dungeon treatments of the "old" settings. They were one shot deals, labeled "official", while the "official" fan sites still retained the rights to put out "official" material for the setting - encouraged to be in 3.5 versions. The two were not really compatable and hence lead to conflicts whenever someone wants to put out something "new". I didn't dislike everything they did, in fact I like some of the things quite a lot - especially the Dark Sun stuff. But no future support for the "new" systems is pretty much a kiss of death to me. Note that all of the "Official" fansites have the rights to publish new products for their respective settings that are considered "official" as long as they are for free and downloads only. So check the ones listed on the WotC Other Worlds boards and some that don't have links, like Alternity.net (Alternity game/setting) and Tequilastarrise.net (Alternity - Star*Drive setting). These are places where you pretty much find any on going support of the games.
#13 ranger_reg Jul 09, 2005 20:47:52	These groups determined the fee was too much for them to put out up front. IMO WotC "learned" from when they pretty much gave away Ravenloft that they didn't want to do that on a blanket level. So, White Wolf/ArtHaus got the better bargain for the Ravenloft license. Cool for them. I believe when they licensed out Gamma World it was a "limited" license and only good for X number of products. I have heard, unsubstantiated, that this number has been reached. And with the d20 Apocolypse supplement out for d20 Modern it looks like WotC is reclaiming at least part of the Gamma World/Metamorphisis Alpha history. It has? I agree with the opinion on the one-shot products - they are a real waste of time. While they give some ideas to DMs they really are only a tease and with no support to answer any questions that arise - well. . . . That was one of the reasons I was vehemently opposed to the Dragon/Dungeon treatments of the "old" settings. They were one shot deals, labeled "official", while the "official" fan sites still retained the rights to put out "official" material for the setting - encouraged to be in 3.5 versions. The two were not really compatable and hence lead to conflicts whenever someone wants to put out something "new". I didn't dislike everything they did, in fact I like some of the things quite a lot - especially the Dark Sun stuff. But no future support for the "new" systems is pretty much a kiss of death to me. To be honest, I really don't know which one has the authority to revive old settings, Paizo or the fan sites. But I'm sure that the former Wizards Periodical Department must have gotten the greenlight from the owner of TSR's IP assets, WotC. There's no other way (except illegally) to publish said material with those brands. Perhaps I'm not as devoted a fan of a particular setting (except Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Kara-Tur), but I am very open about what they offer in updating old settings to 3.5e or later. Very open. IOW, if Paizo puts out another Dragon "Campaign Classics" issue, I'm gonna buy it sight unseen.
#14 irdeggman Jul 10, 2005 7:09:05	To be honest, I really don't know which one has the authority to revive old settings, Paizo or the fan sites. But I'm sure that the former Wizards Periodical Department must have gotten the greenlight from the owner of TSR's IP assets, WotC. There's no other way (except illegally) to publish said material with those brands. Problem is that both do. Pretty weird eh, but both have legal authority to Official 3.5 publications for their products. Perhaps I'm not as devoted a fan of a particular setting (except Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Kara-Tur), but I am very open about what they offer in updating old settings to 3.5e or later. Very open. IOW, if Paizo puts out another Dragon "Campaign Classics" issue, I'm gonna buy it sight unseen. The problem here is that Paizo can't support in any way an ongoing or continuous publicatin of any of the old settings. They can't make any money on it. The only make money on FR stuff (the widest distribution) and on the generic things that canwork in almost any setting. They have committted to Eberron (I'm willing to bet with some incentive from WotC in some way, albeit most likely not money). But Paizo has stated many times in the past that they have to be dedicated to generic and FR themed articles and not to any other campaign specific ones, except for some one-shot type of things. Pretty much the only reason that Dark Sun got the "special" treatment it did was to coincide with the release of the Expanded Psionics book and then it was not going to be followed up. The author of the articles had said (on EnWorld) that they were changed some from what he originally wrote but that once he submitted them they were owned lock stock and barrel by Paizo. The logical deduction here is that only they (Paizo) could support them in the future. I understand the stance of Paizo, they have to make money. I also understand the stance of WotC they also have to make money. That leaves us, the fans of any specific old setting to either convince WotC to resurrect it (not real likely for BR since the original setting didn't make money either), sell the license to some other company that will support it (a shot in the dark on that type of support) or to do it ourselves (that was the whole concept of WotC setting up "Official" fansites).
#15 ranger_reg Jul 11, 2005 1:29:20	That leaves us, the fans of any specific old setting to either convince WotC to resurrect it (not real likely for BR since the original setting didn't make money either), sell the license to some other company that will support it (a shot in the dark on that type of support) or to do it ourselves (that was the whole concept of WotC setting up "Official" fansites). Then support it through the fansites, like Birthright.net. I am still going to keep an open mind about Paizo doing any article treatment for BR, however infrequent they may be.
#16 zombiegleemax Jul 16, 2005 15:44:21	Honestly I like the idea of a one-shot book for each of the dead campaign settings. Heroes of Battle (I don't know what setting this covers, but it's the start of the series so I included it), Heroes of Horror (Ravenloft; although I realize this covers more generic horror than specifically Ravenloft) Heroes of the Orient (Oriental Adventures done right for 3.5), Heroes of the Desert (Al-Qadim), Heroes of Intrigue (Twiggly the Gnome mentioned this for BR, but I'd include Red Steel in this as well, just to fill the space), and Heroes of the Blasted Lands (for all you Dark Sun fans). Spelljammer is slowly getting transfered into the main and Planescape has the Manual of the Planes AND the Planar Handbook. That's just my opinion, leave all the rest up to the DMs, but make sure they has all the tools they need to add that to the campaign. Green Ronin has been really successful with this type of series and I think WotC has the right idea here. Does anyone know if they converted the Secret Passes from the old Dragon Mag article into feats or was it just bloodlines?
#17 ranger_reg Jul 18, 2005 2:36:29	Honestly I like the idea of a one-shot book for each of the dead campaign settings. Honestly, most fans prefer a continuing line of products for their favorite setting, not a one-shot. Heroes of Battle (I don't know what setting this covers, but it's the start of the series so I included it), The title appears to be misleading to most customers. Some thought it was about a new mass combat rules, it's not. It's adventuring during wartime. Heroes of Horror (Ravenloft; although I realize this covers more generic horror than specifically Ravenloft) I doubt there will be Ravenloft material, since Arthaus/White Wolf are doing so well with the license granted to them. Heroes of the Orient (Oriental Adventures done right for 3.5), As much as I desire it, my "Hutt" business sense say "not gonna happen." Heroes of the Desert (Al-Qadim), That's what Sandstorm is for.