Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 01, 2006 17:02:23	As Roger suggested in an other thread, I've just done a coat of arm. Does anyone recognoize it? In ancient times coats of arms were not linked to towns or countries (as the well-known image shows) Coat of Arms were family's design. Of course, if a country is named after his ruler (does "Karameikos" tell you something?), it is easy to mistake and think that a Coat of Arms is something like a flag, a national design. But it is not so. So I decided to search in Gazetteers some true Coat of Arms and draw it, and post it here. Of course, I'll accept any suggestion by you, Mystara people! Stay tuned!
#2 Cthulhudrew Mar 01, 2006 17:16:01	I'm guessing that's whatshisname's family coat of arms, the merchant guy. Umm... Baron Vorloi? Also, for another family coat of arms, the one described for the d'Ambrevilles in X2: Castle Amber is much different than the one that is described in later sources (in X2 it is a phoenix- sable, I think, but I'm not sure offhand- while it is an hourglass in later sources.)
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 01, 2006 17:41:03	It's not Vorloi... And here there are the old and new Amber crests: Maybe the old Coat of Arms was used in Laterre, the new one in Mystara...
#4 Hugin Mar 01, 2006 17:48:54	Does anyone recognoize it? Karameikos, isn't it?
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2006 1:32:10	Nice thread By the way, does anybody know what the coat of arms of Thyatis and Alphatia (or of they ruling families) look like? I remember something about Thyatis in a M module (maybe M2) related to a dream sent by the three crones of Krystakk. If I remember correctly, Thincol coat of arms was similar to Japanese flag (a rising sun). Any help? Thanks ;)
#6 agathokles Mar 02, 2006 2:38:58	By the way, does anybody know what the coat of arms of Thyatis and Alphatia (or of they ruling families) look like? The imperial eagle is probably featured in Thyatian banners (Thyatis is not entirely medieval, so it could well have separate symbols for aristocratic coats of arms and military banners). The coat of arms of Thincol is described in module X11, IIRC -- both the thief and the cleric (Rania) pregenerated PCs have medallions engraved with the symbol (IIRC, it's a bird).
#7 zendrolion Mar 02, 2006 4:32:17	The coat of arms of Thincol is described in module X11, IIRC -- both the thief and the cleric (Rania) pregenerated PCs have medallions engraved with the symbol (IIRC, it's a bird). It's a kingfisher. But if X11 is set in the past (say around AC900), as it's likely, that symbol would be the coat of arms of an old Thyatian imperial family, not the Torions. BTW, this implies that the reference to Thincol in X11 is wrong. ;)
#8 agathokles Mar 02, 2006 8:24:46	It's a kingfisher. But if X11 is set in the past (say around AC900), as it's likely, that symbol would be the coat of arms of an old Thyatian imperial family, not the Torions. BTW, this implies that the reference to Thincol in X11 is wrong. ;) Thincol became Emperor in 960 AC. Gabrionus V was is predecessor. Gabrionus IV was Emperor in 900 AC. We can safely assume that the kingfisher was the coat of arms of the Gabrionus emperors. But since X11 specifically mentions Thincol, it is also possible to keep the kingfisher as Thincol's emblem (it only appears in the pregenerated PCs description), even though the X11 is moved back in the past. I think is more a matter of opportunity (e.g., if there's a different coat of arms for Thincol somewhere else, then the kingfisher can be used for some other emperor), than of sticking to what X11 says.
#9 Cthulhudrew Mar 02, 2006 10:07:31	A couple of thoughts: PWA1010 mentions that King Harald Gudmundson of Vestland was known as Prince Tenitar in his youth (making him the king/prince of module X13: Crown of Ancient Glory). That sets X13 somewhere around 979 AC (according to my "fix"). Module X13 uses the same Pre-Written PCs as module X11 does, and even references the Wendar expedition, IIRC. The implication (loose as it is, being based on PCs that might not actually even be used) is that the two modules are closely connected in chronology. Thus, since Thincol was crowned in 960 AC, he could very well be referenced in 979 AC, and have adopted the Kingfisher as his emblem. (Of course, Gaz7 is in direct contradiction of PWA1010, so take all of this reasoning for what you will.) The other option, naturally, is that the "barbarian" Thincol, having married Gabrionus' daughter, may have simply adopted the Gabrionus Coat of Arms as well, since his own family may or may not have had one. He may have instituted some changes for personal reasons, but kept the same general heraldry.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2006 13:53:03	The other option, naturally, is that the "barbarian" Thincol, having married Gabrionus' daughter, may have simply adopted the Gabrionus Coat of Arms as well, since his own family may or may not have had one. He may have instituted some changes for personal reasons, but kept the same general heraldry. I submit this option. As barbarians do not used Coat of Arms... I'll do a kingfisher device later, now I'm going to have a dinner! Does anyone also suggest colors to use in the Gabrionus-Torions Coat of Arm?
#11 rhialto Mar 02, 2006 15:55:47	Does anyone also suggest colors to use in the Gabrionus-Torions Coat of Arm? The traditional method is to either halve the two crests and splice them together, or quarter them and splice them. Quartering would be used in a second-generation of such inter-marriage. However, such crests were used when there was a complete merger of the two families, not merely a branch of the two merging. The above is all iirc.
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2006 17:00:11	Karameikos, isn't it? Yessss! Hugin was right!
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2006 17:06:49	Here there is my Gabrionus-Torions Coat of Arms template. But, can anyone tellme colors? Should I paint it in blue and red? Or in orange and teal? Or pink and purple?
#14 Cthulhudrew Mar 02, 2006 17:34:03	Should I paint it in blue and red? Or in orange and teal? Or pink and purple? Hmm... don't know offhand. Is there anything in his description in DotE that might give a hint? Otherwise, perhaps something shows up in CM1 or M5? I'll look through them when I get home, but otherwise, I'm thinking for some reason there should be some kind of blue in there, for sure.
#15 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2006 18:41:18	I would go with the sun and rays gold, the field purple, and the kingfisher blue wings and back with a red belly and black beak.
#16 Hugin Mar 02, 2006 19:02:21	I would go with the sun and rays gold, the field purple, and the kingfisher blue wings and back with a red belly and black beak. Hey, I like the sound of that. Is it a lot of work to do this up for all of us to see even though you might change it? (nice work btw!) Yessss! Hugin was right! Wohoo! for me! It'll go good with the free round of tap water Mike is giving out on another thread! ;) :D
#17 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 0:59:06	I would go with the sun and rays gold, the field purple, and the kingfisher blue wings and back with a red belly and black beak. Gold is a colour out of my range. I can't use metallic colours. I'll try with yellow or orange. As for wings, back and belly... I'll try your suggestion, but real word Coat of Arms' animals was single-coloured. It is very rare to find an animal with nature-like colours. Anyway: if we have no hint on "canon" colours for this Coat of Arms... any colours is right!
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 1:05:05	By the way, does anybody know what the coat of arms of Thyatis and Alphatia (or of they ruling families) look like? Thyatis is work in progress. Alphatia... Alphatians do not use family names... so t's hard to build family trees. Do them use Coat of Arms?
#19 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 3:03:23	Thanks for your very nice drawing, Arcanda! About colors, I remember a "japanese" flag in DotE DM's manual, in a picture about "journey to Spillworld" adventure. This picture is in black and white, but I think the rising sun was red on a white background. Again, I suggest to check the M modules (unluckily I don't have them on hand), possibly M2, because I remember a narrative part depicting a dream of the three crones in which the Thincol flag is described. May anybody check it? As regards Alphatia's ruling family, I only know that its background color should be BLUE, given this sentence in DotE about Tredorian dresses: wears trousers, tunic and accoutrements in royal blue, with a patch of Alphatia's flag on his shoulders Unluckily, the Alphatian flag is not described. This is the only sentence I found in the whole DotE about flags or coats of arms. Maybe we should try to rebuild it from some pictures in DotE, or from CM or M modules...
#20 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 3:19:17	About colors, I remember a "japanese" flag in DotE DM's manual, in a picture about "journey to Spillworld" adventure. This picture is in black and white, but I think the rising sun was red on a white background. I remember it too, and that's why I drawd it in the kingfisher background. But I feel colouring it in red and white is too Japanese! It is their naval flag!!!! As regards Alphatia's ruling family, I only know that its background color should be BLUE, given this sentence in DotE about Tredorian dresses: wears trousers, tunic and accoutrements in royal blue, with a patch of Alphatia's flag on his shoulders Unluckily, the Alphatian flag is not described. This is the only sentence I found in the whole DotE about flags or coats of arms. Maybe we should try to rebuild it from some pictures in DotE, or from CM or M modules... So... ir does not say that the flag is blue... I have not M2, so I can't control any other suggestion there.
#21 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 11:54:06	Gold is a colour out of my range. I can't use metallic colours. I'll try with yellow or orange. As for wings, back and belly... I'll try your suggestion, but real word Coat of Arms' animals was single-coloured. It is very rare to find an animal with nature-like colours. Anyway: if we have no hint on "canon" colours for this Coat of Arms... any colours is right! Hmmm... I'd go for the yellow rather than orange, and if the kingfisher must be one color only, go for red, I'd say. That would set off from the purple field better than blue, I think...
#22 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 12:41:08	Some ideas for Gabrionus-Torions Coat of Arms. I think the 5th is the better
#23 Cthulhudrew Mar 03, 2006 13:14:18	I kind of like the 5th one better myself, although maybe with one color for the Kingfisher (rather than sliced up by the sun's rays). Either that, or the 4th (with the same one-color Kingfisher).
#24 gawain_viii Mar 03, 2006 14:40:09	I like the color scheme of the 4th one best, except as Andrew said, make the kingfisher all one color (red). Roger
#25 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 18:22:49	If nobody will find some colour description in canon material, this one will be my "official" Gabronius Coat of Arms.
#26 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2006 19:27:29	Some information about somecoats of arms I found in the official material: 1) I checked M4: I think the coat of arms should be with the bird, in red, without the rising sun. Here is the text: M4, page 5: Dream one: Wearily, you press on towards the dazzling and disturbing red hue of sunrise... Finally the ocean appears, with hundreds of ships bearing the blue star pennants... The blue star fades away, leaving behind only a bright red symbol. The blue star pennants are the symbol of baron Norlan of Qeodhar... The red symbol represents the family coat of arms of Thincol the Brave of Thyatis. Anyway, the dream depicts also the rising sun (in red), so maybe this is also a part of Thyatian coat of arms. 2) Incidentally, the Qeodhar and Norwold flags are clearly visible in a couple of pictures in page 6, 10 and 25 of M1 (see below). Qeodhar flag is an eight-sided star with a circle inscribed in it, and another bigger circle crossing the spikes of the star at about 40% of its lenght from the center. Norwold flag seems to be a dragon shilouette, with open wings, with the head looking on he right side. The color should be dark, maybe red or blue. Considering the previous reference about the "royal blue" dresses of Tredorian, maybe the symbol has this colour. Given the fact that Ericall is a son of Empress Eriadna, maybe this symbol is also the coat of arms of the Alphatian ruling family. 3) The Alphatian Imperial Guard dresses in a colorful red, yellow and black uniform (see Torenal description on DotE DM's manual, page 54). Considering also the carvings on Torenal's helm in the picture of page 53, maybe it's possible to draw this coat of arms. 4) Another known coat of arms is the one of the Republic of Darokin; here is the key sentence of IM2 (page 35, in the legend of Aurum dragon): the crossed twin spears of the fighter became the symbol of the Republic of Darokin This symbol is also shown in X10 module (in the table describing the various armies of the Known World). By the way, some of the other symbols depicted herein may be used as an inspiration for other coats of arms (for example,Thyatis symbol is an eagle - maybe this is could be used for the army coat of arms) 5) The Heldannic Knights coat of arms should be a black upright lion on a white background. Freom VotPA, part IV: A Heldannic Knight is recognizable for his dark, dull-gray plate armor; for his long white tabard with its black, upright lion; and for his full-face great helm topped with the ominous upright lion to make him appear much taller than he really is. Here is a selection of the symbols I found above: Hope this helps. ;)