First of all, that's truly beautiful and great, really!!!
For both lizardmen in Ylaruam, the Azcans and other populations that should be at the KW just prior to the GRoF (like the elves in Glantri, that are not shown at the map... shouldn't they be there? But still, I guess that's another great spot to place the pre-GRoF elven colonists, fitting very nicely with Christian Constantin's work about the Midlands and the elves of the Ozungan Plateau), well... those canon sources wasn't thinking the KW as the north pole, I suppose. Which is a big problem IMHO... Should this mean that the north pole should actually be a warm (or, at least, warmer) region? As LoZompatore said, we do know that Ylaruam has that connecton with the Elemental Plane of Fire... could this make the local weather warmer? Could the NotS have anything to do with it?
About the oltecs and azcans: besides canon indeed says that the oltecs used to live in hilly (and likely, colder) regions, the oltecs seems to be a fusion of two RW cultures, the Toltecs and the Inca. While the Inca indeed should live in such regions, the Toltec shouldn't, favoring a more warmer weather, and the same goes to the Azcans. When I was working on then with GP, I wasn't aware about the ide of the KW as the north pole, son wasn't aware of the implications of having themat there (it even seems to be a great idea to have Lake Ansorak mimicing RW Lake Texcoco, with Chitlacán built over Itheldown Island), so I never bother to think about a explanation for that until now...
As to the Oltec problem, I'd just assume that the pre-GRoF Oltec lived in a cold region, like the Inca, indeed.
Also, it's possible that the average temperatures of the Blackmoor world were somewhat higher than those of the modern world, with smaller polar caps.
GP
The NoS is a post-GRoF thing. Before, it was just an engine.
That fell quite far away from the rest of the ship, assuming what's almost certain, that Blackmoor existed in Skothar instead of Glantri
Pehaps it was brought there exaclty to produce heat,making the north pole warmer?
As to the Oltec problem, I'd just assume that the pre-WotI Oltec lived in a cold region, like the Inca, indeed.
The Black Mountains is cold enough, we don't need to put then almost under a polar cap ;)
Also, it's possible that the average temperatures of the Blackmoor world were somewhat higher than those of the modern world, with smaller polar caps.
Pehaps they had a very similar problem we currently have with their ozon layer? lol :D
OTOH, havng oltecs and azcans close to a polar cap makes me remember the amerindians that lived in a similar situation during the last Ice Age.
Pehaps they had a very similar problem we currently have with their ozon layer? lol :D
LOL!
OTOH, havng oltecs and azcans close to a polar cap makes me remember the amerindians that lived in a similar situation during the last Ice Age.
Indeed.
GP
Just for making my question clearer, I'm adding below the RW linguistic parallels that I think those groups have:
Hattian - High German
Flaemish - Dutch
Eusdrian - Old Frankish (or pehaps evolved to either Dutch or Low German?)
Durran - English? (pehaps fused with laterran Anglais, if it really exists)
LB Tongue - English
OTOH, shouldn't other antalian groups (northern reaches, heldann and pehaps even helskir, norworld and yanifey qeodharan) be closer at that table?
So, some comments,
well... those canon sources wasn't thinking the KW as the north pole, I suppose. Which is a big problem IMHO... Should this mean that the north pole should actually be a warm (or, at least, warmer) region?
Personally, I have discarded the KW as the ancient north pole. Although there is some text that claims this in canon, I believe it is out-weighted by canon maps and other canon text. I've found that the HW maps provide info regarding Mystara's pre-GRoF orientation. Basically;
- the axis shifted about 37.5 degrees,
- the north pole was located just off the Sylvan Realms' coast,
- the south pole was located where the mountains of the Vulcanian Line are now in Davania's Peninsula of Vulcania,
- the KW region rested very close to its present day latitude (roughly 30 - 45 degrees north),
- Blackmoor was at approximately 50 degrees north.
You can use the maps from here to reference what I'm talking about (specifically the last six).
Now some further suggestions;
There was an ice age in Mystara's past that contributed to the seemingly colder climes described. Another theory I'm exploring is that the KW region was at much higher altitudes pre-cataclysm, combined with the ice age, allowed the formation to glaciers in the area.
The GRoF and axial shift of the planet caused the KW to sink considerably, lowering its altitude, melting the glaciers, forming the Ierendi Island group, turning the Isle of Dawn land bridge into the Ostland Island group, and creating the Tamoran lowlands.
As the glaciers retreat they expose new ground that had been laid down by the grinding action of those glaciers. This new ground is not very fertile and becomes grasslands and steeps that cover future Ethengar and Glantri all the way through Darokin (including Alfheim) to the sea (remember, no Broken Lands yet). Ylaruam also suffers from this ground type (but note that its glaciers were likely the fastest moving having the shortest distance to the sea).
Another possibility is that the Streel valley was flooded (perhaps more than once) to create a large lake or series of lakes. The sediments from these lakes are what made this region more fertile than other regions. The catastrophe of 1750 BC cleared these lakes except for Lake Amsorak. The 1750 BC catastrophe also collapsed the Tamoran lowlands and created the Broken Lands dividing the once continuous KW grasslands.
About the oltecs and azcans: besides canon indeed says that the oltecs used to live in hilly (and likely, colder) regions, the oltecs seems to be a fusion of two RW cultures, the Toltecs and the Inca. While the Inca indeed should live in such regions, the Toltec shouldn't, favoring a more warmer weather, and the same goes to the Azcans. When I was working on then with GP, I wasn't aware about the ide of the KW as the north pole, son wasn't aware of the implications of having themat there (it even seems to be a great idea to have Lake Ansorak mimicing RW Lake Texcoco, with Chitlacán built over Itheldown Island), so I never bother to think about a explanation for that until now...
I figure the Oltecs were along the foothills of the Black mountains which would place them at about 50-55 degrees north and the Azcans around 45-50 degrees. Still a cool region though. However, I don't think we need to hold exactly to the RW counterparts in every detail so that doesn't bother me much. Still, it works out better than having them next to the arctic circle.
This does raise questions regarding the Great Salt Swamp. How does this swamp maintain its saltiness while draining into the sea. All salt water I know of doesn't drain into anything thus building in salt content. Furthermore, how is it that freshwater flows from a salt swamp? Any ideas on how to handle this?
I have a question, how difficult (or how "anti-canon") would be if we place the eusdrians, hattians, durran (ancestrals of the modern darokinians, with the doulakki), the non-alphatian proto-flaemish (I've included part of the idea here, see the second post) and the tribe that originally spoke the LB Trade Tongue within the same group, possibly not close related to the Thantalians?
I'm not far enough along on my timeline plotting to comment on that yet. Probably tonight when I get home I'll get there (only at 1500 BC at the moment). Looks like it could work though.
OTOH, shouldn't other antalian groups (northern reaches, heldann and pehaps even helskir, norworld and yanifey qeodharan) be closer at that table?
Again I'll comment more tonight but I'd like it to be closer too.
As I go through Mystara's timeline I'm starting with canon, adjusting where needed, and then I'm going to evaluate fan-made contributions based on what I have. My preference is to include previous works whenever possible.
Personally, I have discarded the KW as the ancient north pole. Although there is some text that claims this in canon, I believe it is out-weighted by canon maps and other canon text. I've found that the HW maps provide info regarding Mystara's pre-GRoF orientation.
Well, as far as I know the HW pre-cataclysmic map is the ONLY canon reference to the KW not being the north pole before the GRoF.
Besides, there are clear references to the KW being the north pole in all the GAZ series and - absurdly - in HW itself. Moreover, the PWAs also have references about this. So, canon text is rather clear about KW's position before the GRoF, while the only pre-cataclysmic canon map shows otherwise.
Unfortunately or luckily ( ;) ), as always happens with Mystara, both takes are fully viable on canon basis. :P
For my ethnographic project - that I'll translate and post here soon - I've chosen to follow the indications given in canon texts and consider the HW pre-cataclysmic map wrong. This approach still poses me two problems: how to explain lizardmen presence in KW before Blackmoor time and the climate area of Oltecs and Azcans - both problem are coming to possible solutions, however. ;)
Well, as far as I know the HW pre-cataclysmic map is the ONLY canon reference to the KW not being the north pole before the GRoF.
I thought I remembered reading about the old north pole being near the Sylvan Realm. Was that fan-based or am I just imagining things again? :D
Besides, there are clear references to the KW being the north pole in all the GAZ series and - absurdly - in HW itself. Moreover, the PWAs also have references about this. So, canon text is rather clear about KW's position before the GRoF, while the only pre-cataclysmic canon map shows otherwise.
One of the big problems I face is that if we say the old pole was in the KW then much of the area didn't even exist; being a hole. Or we go with the map as you've provided and say the pole was basically a shaft about 300 miles wide and 1500 miles deep instead of the curvature we get with the current poles. This is certainly an option given it is said the old poles where smaller than the current ones.
Here's another problem; with the pole being at the KW, Blackmoor is now in the 35 - 40 degree North range making it rather warmer than it should be (assuming the Skothar location, that is). Using Brun as the Blackmoor location (as with your map) it lies roughly in the 50 - 60 degrees North range.
Also, according to my figuring, the arctic circle would be larger than on your map (about 50% more radius). This all assumes that what I've done with my Google Mystara globe to be fairly accurate.
Unfortunately or luckily ( ;) ), as always happens with Mystara, both takes are fully viable on canon basis. :P
Absolutely. I wish I could use the KW pole theory but I can't get it to work to the point where I'm happy with it. Maybe we'll be able to iron out problems together here in this thread. Btw, I'm not criticizing your work either; it's very good and useful.
For my ethnographic project - that I'll translate and post here soon - I've chosen to follow the indications given in canon texts and consider the HW pre-cataclysmic map wrong. This approach still poses me two problems: how to explain lizardmen presence in KW before Blackmoor time and the climate area of Oltecs and Azcans - both problem are coming to possible solutions, however. ;)
Look forward to both the translations and the possible solutions.
Once stabilized, the climates would change very quickly and make the KW region habitable rather quickly. the lizardmen could have moved in shortly after the GRoF near the rapidly receding glaciers. Thoughts?
Not sure why I find it so fascinating but I do!
Me too! :D
There was an ice age in Mystara's past that contributed to the seemingly colder climes described. Another theory I'm exploring is that the KW region was at much higher altitudes pre-cataclysm, combined with the ice age, allowed the formation to glaciers in the area.
I think that's possible, since IIRC the GAZ said that we had ice caps at there but not that it was the original north pole (or did it?). OTOH, it's odd either way, the GAZ mentions a few populations living at there pre-GRoF (at least, we have the elven colonists at Glantri; the GAZ books don't seen to agree with it, but it's possible that a blackmoorian colony also was at there; IIRC, the lizardmen of Ylaruam lived at there pre-GRoF; and we have the Azcans to the west).
Still a cool region though. However, I don't think we need to hold exactly to the RW counterparts in every detail so that doesn't bother me much.
That's not really the problem. The problem is that modern HW Azcans live in a tropical land. ;)
This does raise questions regarding the Great Salt Swamp. How does this swamp maintain its saltiness while draining into the sea. All salt water I know of doesn't drain into anything thus building in salt content. Furthermore, how is it that freshwater flows from a salt swamp? Any ideas on how to handle this?
That's an interesting question, indeed...
I'm not far enough along on my timeline plotting to comment on that yet. Probably tonight when I get home I'll get there (only at 1500 BC at the moment). Looks like it could work though.
BTW, while taking a look at DotE, I couldn't find anything that say that thyatians and kerendas are descendents from the same group that originated the hattians, only thatthey were three tribles that lived close to each other, migrated together to modern Thyatis and created a empire at there. The fact that they imagine themselves as the same poeple may be related to the fact that they intermingled a lot (despite of the hattian claims about thein a "pure race", they're quite "basic thyatian" nowadays, no longer preserving their antalian features). This may also explain the misleading info about hattian being a thyatian dialect (they probably believe that one day they were all the same people and spoke the same language), that's the only thing I could find at DotE suggesting that they came from the same original stock.
So, that leaves us to the question, who are the closest livng cousins of the thyatians and kerendans?
And assuming that the antalians with west germanic languages are all related and that they originated at the Midlands (they're the "western antalians", while those who speak north-germanic languages are the "eastern antalians", variants of the same original antalian stock), I guess that the hattians may be one of the first groups to make its way back into the KW, forcing us to have two migrational waves one for then and 200 years later (or more) the second wave, entering Glantri.
As I go through Mystara's timeline I'm starting with canon, adjusting where needed, and then I'm going to evaluate fan-made contributions based on what I have. My preference is to include previous works whenever possible.
I also use this aproach, but also like to include a simple rule as well "The simplest answer is usually the best answer" ;)
I think that's possible, since IIRC the GAZ said that we had ice caps at there but not that it was the original north pole (or did it?). OTOH, it's odd either way, the GAZ mentions a few populations living at there pre-GRoF (at least, we have the elven colonists at Glantri; the GAZ books don't seen to agree with it, but it's possible that a blackmoorian colony also was at there; IIRC, the lizardmen of Ylaruam lived at there pre-GRoF; and we have the Azcans to the west).
There are many difficulties with a KW north pole but just to let people know, I am revisiting the possibility thanks to Zendrolion. I would like to make anything I do compatible with what the majority of people use, so if most people consider the KW to have been the pole then I'd prefer to use that if I can do it to my satisfaction.
Zendrolion has done a great job with his stuff but there are issues that I'd like to solve (and I know he would too). Perhaps all of us together...
That's not really the problem. The problem is that modern HW Azcans live in a tropical land. ;)
Right.
OTOH, the HW would be fairly constant temperature-wise from the equator all the way to the point at which the polar curvature begins. This is because the 'sun' is basically always directly above and there is no night to help cool things off. If I were to guess (and apparently I'm about to ;) ) I would say weather would be driven mainly by cold ocean currents flowing in from the outer world's polar regions. Any other ideas?BTW, while taking a look at DotE, I couldn't find anything that say that thyatians and kerendas are descendents from the same group that originated the hattians, only thatthey were three tribles that lived close to each other, migrated together to modern Thyatis and created a empire at there.
I would say (at this point in time anyway) the three descended from the Antalians that the Nithians brought to Davania. However, once there, they expanded and formed small clans (as would be their tradition). From there they developed in three more or less independent sub-cultures.
The Hattians may have been the group that interacted with (prossibly absorbing) the already existing Neathar based group here and develop a significantly different culture than the other two main Antalian groups. Meanwhile, the Thyatians and Kerendas groups have contact with the Milenians and begin trade and culture exchanging. This gives both the Thyatians and Kerendas
I also use this aproach, but also like to include a simple rule as well "The simplest answer is usually the best answer" ;)
That is exactly what I'm aiming to get at; a simple history that is very detailed. In other words, keep a relatively basic human 'family tree' that has all the necessary cultural 'leafs'.
I would like to make anything I do compatible with what the majority of people use
That's what I always atempt to do as well. If someone don't like part of somewhing I wrote, he could still use the other part ;)
Zendrolion has done a great job with his stuff but there are issues that I'd like to solve (and I know he would too). Perhaps all of us together...
OTOH, the HW would be fairly constant temperature-wise from the equator all the way to the point at which the polar curvature begins. This is because the 'sun' is basically always directly above and there is no night to help cool things off. If I were to guess (and apparently I'm about to ;) ) I would say weather would be driven mainly by cold ocean currents flowing in from the outer world's polar regions. Any other ideas?
And using a variation of this idea, cold weather is also sometimes explained by altitude (that, pehaps at the HW has a different explanation, since the ground is "up" instead of "down", so the hotter air tends to stay at the ground and the colder stay closer to mountains and the floating continents, I guess...
).I would say (at this point in time anyway) the three descended from the Antalians that the Nithians brought to Davania.
But these tribes could be somewhat untelared and still be antalians. IIRC, Hinterlanders are also described as "related to the thyatians" but they're not even "true antalians", having a celtic descended (scottish?) culture.
The Hattians may have been the group that interacted with (prossibly absorbing) the already existing Neathar based group here and develop a significantly different culture than the other two main Antalian groups.
Or the other way around, assuming that "antalian" describes all M-Germanic groups. BTW, that relation between thyatians/kerendans and hattians could be old (dating frm before being slaved by the nithians) or rather new (davania or even thyatian mailand). They also had different interactions with the milenian empire, with he first absorving a lot from it and the second barely having any influence at all. And that's not only reflected by their modern cultures, but by their reaction towards other modern people as well (hattians have a completely "anti-thyatian" reaction about conquered peoples).
I think that it's even possible that they were two separated groups still in Davania, with thyatians and kerendas having somewhat "civilized" small kingdoms (or city-states) with a milenian-like culture, while the hattians preserved their barbaric/sea reaver antalian heritage. When the Milenian expanded its border and forced thyatians and kerendans out of the continent, they arrived at thyatian mainland and were welcomed and employed by the local fragile city-states as mercenaries, which estimulates more thyatians and kerendans to migrate to there.
OTOH, the hattian migration is much like what is described, as barbaric pirates raiding and eventually ruling the land. They followed the thyatians/kerendans, being easier preys than the milenians; conquered the (almost empty? pehaps inhabited by Toralai?) island of Hattias and from there raided the continent. And eventually both groups fused much like RW Kingdom of Naples or Normandy, resulting in a more homogeneous culture and physical traits, but preserving the hattian feeling of superiority.
Funny is that's much like what happened in other M-Greek lands in Brun, Traladara (the Vandars) and Darokin (Durran)
That is exactly what I'm aiming to get at; a simple history that is very detailed. In other words, keep a relatively basic human 'family tree' that has all the necessary cultural 'leafs'.
And using a variation of this idea, cold weather is also sometimes explained by altitude (that, pehaps at the HW has a different explanation, since the ground is "up" instead of "down", so the hotter air tends to stay at the ground and the colder stay closer to mountains and the floating continents, I guess...
I guess it would get colder as you gained altitude since the HW also has an atmosphere that gets thinner at higher levels; i.e. the atmosphere doesn't extend further 'up' than it does on the outer world. Hollow World weather patterns would be a fun thing to explore as you could hypothesize interesting driving forces.
But these tribes could be somewhat untelared and still be antalians. IIRC, Hinterlanders are also described as "related to the thyatians" but they're not even "true antalians", having a celtic descended (scottish?) culture.
This is where I'm attempting to make things simpler. I'm following blood line relationships which are remaining fairly broad in scope so far. However, within these broad groups there can be several varying cultures. What I'm hoping this will result in is making it easier to see the 'big picture' of peoples and their relationships and having the cultures much more detailed.
Maybe I'll classify them as Thyatian-Antalians (i.e. culture-bloodline) but the Hattians may be their own bloodline and hence listed as such (due to the mixing of their line and another on Davania). This way we'll probably find ourselves talking about 'cultures' more so than the plethora of 'races'. I'm also hoping to make figuring out 'who came from who' easier and the flow of them a little nicer.
But again, I want to keep to canon and perhaps utilize work from others on the 'leafy' culture side of the human family tree instead of having them on the 'branchy' blood side.
Or the other way around, assuming that "antalian" describes all M-Germanic groups.
This is an example of what I'm hoping to be able to do; separate our broad bloodlines (in this case, Antalian) from broad cultures (M-Germanic). Now we can have separate, more defined, cultures within a group. To flip it around, we can have M-Germanic tribes within the Antalian group as well as these other tribal groups that you've mentioned;
Hattian - High German
Flaemish - Dutch
Eusdrian - Old Frankish (or pehaps evolved to either Dutch or Low German?)
Durran - English? (pehaps fused with laterran Anglais, if it really exists)
LB Tongue - English
The seeds for these people groups could have already existed within the Antalian line without having to invent tonnes of people. (In practical terms we could still have all these fan-invented people but many would describe their culture and not have to be another whole 'race').
BTW, that relation between thyatians/kerendans and hattians could be old (dating frm before being slaved by the nithians) or rather new (davania or even thyatian mailand). They also had different interactions...
I think that it's even possible that they were two separated groups still in Davania, ...
This is along the lines I'm beginning to think in. We don't require the introduction of another people group in order to have a culture develop.
Funny is that's much like what happened in other M-Greek lands in Brun, Traladara (the Vandars) and Darokin (Durran).
If we do this right we can tidy up Mystara's history while maintaining canon and fan-created ideas. If I were to describe what my dream of doing is in a visual sense, it would be like taking a map that indicates people groups using a palette of 100 slightly different colours, and turn it into a map using 10 shades of only 10 different colours. (Just an example; point is to make it easier to read ;) ).
I thought I remembered reading about the old north pole being near the Sylvan Realm. Was that fan-based or am I just imagining things again? :D
It could be, there are so many inconsistencies in canon material...
However, there'd be two of them - against a practically all other sources referring to the KW as the pre-cataclysmic North Pole. But it doesn't matter so much, becouse on canon basis, as I said, both versions are viable. ;)
One of the big problems I face is that if we say the old pole was in the KW then much of the area didn't even exist; being a hole.
Old polar openings were smaller, as HW says:
The land turned much cold toward the poles. Ka opened great shafts a few miles across from the outer world to the Hollow World. (Book I: The Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 6)
BC 3000 - 2500: Formerly artic areas of the Known World, including most of the land covered in the Gazetteer series, slowly become habitable as ice recedes from former polar regions... ...The Immortals create new, gigantic, fog -clad opening to the outside world and seal up the former (smaller) polar openings. (Book I: The Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 11)
So, I think that 300 miles of width are more than enough to stay true to what the preceeding sources say. Moreover, PWAs are rather explicit about the position of the north pole, locating it exactly in Ethengar.
As LoZompatore, one of our friends on the Italian MMB, has showed time ago, the Ethengar steppes - a type of terrain that's rather weird in that area, surrounded as it is by mountains - is perfectly like a "plug" put by the Immortals to seal the old polar openings.
Here's another problem; with the pole being at the KW, Blackmoor is now in the 35 - 40 degree North range making it rather warmer than it should be (assuming the Skothar location, that is). Using Brun as the Blackmoor location (as with your map) it lies roughly in the 50 - 60 degrees North range.
Uhmm... I think I'm failing to follow what you say.
On the HW precataclysmic map the label "Blackmoor" is found on Skothar at about 40N latitude.
On the precataclysmic map I've used (that with the KW as the North Pole - the layout of the map has been done by LoZompatore, I've only added peoples, labels and migrations) Blackmoor is instead at 30N latitude.
I know it's some distance, but think of Blackmoor as a sort of New Orleans region, with all that wet and swampy lands. At least, this is what we see in DA modules.
Also, according to my figuring, the arctic circle would be larger than on your map (about 50% more radius). This all assumes that what I've done with my Google Mystara globe to be fairly accurate.
Honestly I don't know. I placed the Arctic Circle at latitude 66N following LoZompatore's map and that's what I came out with.
Absolutely. I wish I could use the KW pole theory but I can't get it to work to the point where I'm happy with it. Maybe we'll be able to iron out problems together here in this thread. Btw, I'm not criticizing your work either; it's very good and useful.
Nor do I want to convince you to use my version. Don't worry, if I post something here it's becouse I want to see some comments, suggestions and criticisms about it - so, don't spare them!
Look forward to both the translations and the possible solutions.
Caerdania's timeline first, then ethnography.
I guess it would get colder as you gained altitude since the HW also has an atmosphere that gets thinner at higher levels; i.e. the atmosphere doesn't extend further 'up' than it does on the outer world.
Indeed. Actually, I guess that's exactly what HW said about it, but I'm not 100% sure.
Hollow World weather patterns would be a fun thing to explore as you could hypothesize interesting driving forces.
Indeed
This is where I'm attempting to make things simpler. I'm following blood line relationships which are remaining fairly broad in scope so far. However, within these broad groups there can be several varying cultures. What I'm hoping this will result in is making it easier to see the 'big picture' of peoples and their relationships and having the cultures much more detailed.
Sure, that's also my idea about the subject. I'm just using Zendrolion's classifications and names for those peoples. Thus, instead of using "antalian" for their common link, I'm using "Aharian", ancestrals of the M-Germanic, M-Celtic, M-Greek and Arian (indian) and M-Slavic (and, of course, the thyatians) ;)
This way we'll probably find ourselves talking about 'cultures' more so than the plethora of 'races'. I'm also hoping to make figuring out 'who came from who' easier and the flow of them a little nicer.
But again, I want to keep to canon and perhaps utilize work from others on the 'leafy' culture side of the human family tree instead of having them on the 'branchy' blood side.
I agree, especially because we do know that the "basic" (not mixed with other peoples) thyatian/kerendan is much like the hattians. But, OTOH, we can see that their cultural differences is actually quite old; even 400 years of Milenian influence added with many years of contact with the "thyatian doulakki" city-states weren't enough to erase many of their unique traits (such as their language), they just added new elements to their culture.
So, I think it's quite safe to imagine them originally as two distinct groups that fused (imperfectly, just like Darokin much different from what happened in Traladara) into one people. Even because I couldn't find anywhere in canon saying that they were one single people, only that they were three different tribes ;)
This is an example of what I'm hoping to be able to do; separate our broad bloodlines (in this case, Antalian) from broad cultures (M-Germanic). Now we can have separate, more defined, cultures within a group. To flip it around, we can have M-Germanic tribes within the Antalian group as well as these other tribal groups that you've mentioned;
But I think it's easy to imagine that both "east antalian" and "west antalian" groups are related and even if they're quite different nowadays, they were the same people not long ago. OTOH, we have these M-Romans/Italians that have their own culture, customs, clothing, visions of world and language. I'm not saying that they're not related at all, it's just that they're not closely related ;)
The seeds for these people groups could have already existed within the Antalian line without having to invent tonnes of people. (In practical terms we could still have all these fan-invented people but many would describe their culture and not have to be another whole 'race').
Sure, I don't see then as new races, but as part of the West Antalian branch of the antalian race (or a mix of it and thyatian blood for Hattians, and a mix of it and Alphatian Flaems for modern glantri Flaems). They just arrived at the KW in different migratorial waves and thus developed different variations of the same original language
The only thing I think should be apart from them is the thyatian and kerendan groups. The "true antalians" should be treated as the same racial stock ;)
This is along the lines I'm beginning to think in. We don't require the introduction of another people group in order to have a culture develop.
Sure, I think we already know much about the history of Thyatis and there's nothing said about one extra people that influenced their culture (we already have milenians and doulakki for that). OTOH, if the Thyatians and Kerendans have their own branch of the Aharian tree, they may have other living cousins (that could be even something unexpected, such as the Toralai or the Makai!)
If we do this right we can tidy up Mystara's history while maintaining canon and fan-created ideas. If I were to describe what my dream of doing is in a visual sense, it would be like taking a map that indicates people groups using a palette of 100 slightly different colours, and turn it into a map using 10 shades of only 10 different colours. (Just an example; point is to make it easier to read ;) ).
BTW, that's what I attempted to do with the lupins. Which makes me emember that I still need to make a new version of it, with better maps (I think those aren't clear enough).
It could be, there are so many inconsistencies in canon material...
However, there'd be two of them - against a practically all other sources referring to the KW as the pre-cataclysmic North Pole. But it doesn't matter so much, becouse on canon basis, as I said, both versions are viable.
Certainly can't deny the inconsistencies, but they are a part of the fun!
I've been researching pre-cataclysm pole references and have been a little surprised; most only state that the 'continent' of the Known World was the location of the north pole. I searched the gazes and the almanacs and it wasn't until I read the Ethengar entry was a specific location for the pole actual spelled out.
I'm going to try using this with my work and just see if it can be done.
The biggest obstackle is the Oltecs and Azcans being so close to the pole with most of the Sind Desert lying within the artic circle.
So, I think that 300 miles of width are more than enough to stay true to what the preceeding sources say. Moreover, PWAs are rather explicit about the position of the north pole, locating it exactly in Ethengar.
Agreed.
Uhmm... I think I'm failing to follow what you say.
Basically I've found many maps don't portray the Mystaran globe very well and I like to utilize my Google Mystara globe to get latitudes. To start over again, let's just say that the heart of Blackmoor was at the present north pole. That gave it a latitude of 45 degrees north. I guess you could say it was on Brun or Skothar and both could be right at the same time since the two continents were combined at that time and Blackmoor was at the bridge of that connection; probably what made the location so important and successful.
This part all works fine and dandy. Just remember that the arctic circle would have reached out to the north side of the great bay, Trollhattan on Alphatia, the middle of the great lake in the middle of Brun, the 'twin oasis' in the Sind Desert, and nearly the entire Isle of Dawn.
I know it's some distance, but think of Blackmoor as a sort of New Orleans region, with all that wet and swampy lands. At least, this is what we see in DA modules.
I can image it being that way too. Or at least parts of it for sure.
Nor do I want to convince you to use my version. Don't worry, if I post something here it's becouse I want to see some comments, suggestions and criticisms about it - so, don't spare them!
I wouldn't mind it at all if you could convince me! I think the only thing that makes me not want to use the KW north pole is the Oltec/Azcan problem of the Sind Desert lying most in the arctic circle.
Caerdania's timeline first, then ethnography.
I wouldn't mind it at all if you could convince me! I think the only thing that makes me not want to use the KW north pole is the Oltec/Azcan problem of the Sind Desert lying most in the arctic circle.
Pehaps the best solution is to place them far from the KW, closer to the Serpent Penninsula (it wouldn't still give the Azcans a tropical land, but this would help anyway; Pehaps this area was unusually warm even being close to the north pole). Pehaps modern Nawmmidi Sand Flats was once a lake named Chitlaloc?
The white line is roughly where the arctic circle should be.
Hey Zendrolion, I think I just figured out what you did with these maps. I couldn't reconcile the two different style maps regarding the Blackmoorian Empire. Could you comment on if you think this basically the same as what you're done?
Yes, I think the process of moving Ethengar to the North Pole is more or less the same it was used in the maps you've seen in my ethnographic work.
However, as the maps and Mystara's axial shift were calculated and operated by LoZompatore, a friend of mine on the Italian MMB, I've asked if he can translate the very beautiful and detailed article he wrote more than an year ago about Blackmoor and the Great Rain of Fire. Thus, you'll get from him the right explainations about those details. I really hope LoZompatore could do the translation; otherwise, I'll ask him if I can do it for him.
A partial translation of that article, done by Marco Dalmonte, is found at the Vaults (http://www.pandius.com/blk_pcat.html).
The white line is roughly where the arctic circle should be.
I see... Little (!) larger than mine. Did you put it at latitude 66N? I'll take some time to think about this issue.
A partial translation of that article, done by Marco Dalmonte, is found at the Vaults (http://www.pandius.com/blk_pcat.html).
Yes. He's done some fantastic work and I basically agree with his conclusions.
I see... Little (!) larger than mine. Did you put it at latitude 66N? I'll take some time to think about this issue.
Absolutely! :D
I think I know why we have different sized arctic circles though. I'm deriving everything from a spherical globe that made me realize a few things about Mystara's maps:
1) There was too much north-to-south mapped out in comparison to east-to-west. The resulting global map was too 'square'. A true global map should be twice as wide (east to west) as it is high (north to south). This is why my Far End Ocean is so big compared to what other people use. I have no 'Straight of Tangor' - it is a big ocean like our Pacific Ocean.
As a matter of fact, in order to have the equator and tropics lie where they should, I had to trim land from the north and add to the south. The land trimmed from the north still exists but it extends into the polar opening. I had to add ocean to the south, which is beneficial to Davania IMHO.
2) Mystara is a fair size larger than we are told. I figure it is slightly smaller than Earth. Again, if you add up the distance from north to south that has been mapped you'll find there is too much land for Mystara to be as small as they say it is.
3) Hex maps that are nearer the poles have too much land in the east-west directions (or are scaled too large). Compare my map of the north in my last post to your map here. The land at the north should be at much smaller scale than the land at the equator. I'm sure most of realize this but I know I can sometimes forget about it. But anyhow, this is also why my map of the Blackmoor Empire has its Brun portion so 'squished' together compared to yours. We are both mapping the same thing but it looks different because of the limitations of flat maps compared to globes.
4) Finally, and more so as a side note, the HW's polar maps have incorrect latitudes which I believe have been translated over to the other maps. Basically, 90 degrees north (or south) should be directly over the polar axis instead of where the polar curvature begins.
2) Mystara is a fair size larger than we are told. I figure it is slightly smaller than Earth. Again, if you add up the distance from north to south that has been mapped you'll find there is too much land for Mystara to be as small as they say it is.
I came up with 30,240 miles going by the latitude lines in the PWA I.
3) Hex maps that are nearer the poles have too much land in the east-west directions (or are scaled too large). Compare my map of the north in my last post to your map here. The land at the north should be at much smaller scale than the land at the equator. I'm sure most of realize this but I know I can sometimes forget about it. But anyhow, this is also why my map of the Blackmoor Empire has its Brun portion so 'squished' together compared to yours. We are both mapping the same thing but it looks different because of the limitations of flat maps compared to globes.
I don't think the area nearer the poles would be smaller because hex maps measure absolute distance instead of relative. 24 miles is 24 miles wherever it is on the map.
I see... Little (!) larger than mine. Did you put it at latitude 66N? I'll take some time to think about this issue.
Hm, I guess that would definitely prevent any oltecindian civilization in Brun (they all flourished at the Forest of Ka, north Davania), except for a very few Atukaino canoes taking then into the Serpent Peninsula and the Savage Coast, plus some Otzil colonists (migrating through Rainbow Path-like portals?).
This idea have its advantages, like putting the Katapec civilization closer to the rest of the Oltecindian world and explaining the apparent absence of oltec ruins at the Great Waste and Sind. But at the same time, they're quite far from Atruaghin, Sind and Nithia, and it we would require a explanation for bringing the Coyotl lupins (Chochomec civilization) to Davania
I came up with 30,240 miles going by the latitude lines in the PWA I.
Wow! Now you know why I trimmed land from the north part of the map by 'transferring' it to the polar curvature and wrapping it around into the Hollow World.
I don't think the area nearer the poles would be smaller because hex maps measure absolute distance instead of relative. 24 miles is 24 miles wherever it is on the map.
I understand what you are saying and technically you are right. I think my use of the word 'scale' wasn't a very good choice.The problem is that we have more land mapped east to west up near the pole than we have physically available. North to south isn't really an issue.
Hm, I guess that would definitely prevent any oltecindian civilization in Brun (they all flourished at the Forest of Ka, north Davania), except for a very few Atukaino canoes taking then into the Serpent Peninsula and the Savage Coast, plus some Otzil colonists (migrating through Rainbow Path-like portals?).
Not necessarily. I'm still playing around with the 'starting' positions of the three people groups. I'd like to have them fairly separated to begin with to help them develop and maintain their own unique cultures. From there they can begin to diverge as tribes become isolated and then interact with other culture. We could have one group for each continent; Neathar-Brun, Tanagoro-Skothar, and Oltec-Davania.
I've been thinking about the Oltecs in the Great Waste/arctic circle location problem and think we might be able to do something here. Here's a possiblility using the Davanian origins for the Oltecs as you suggest:
I've also been researching conditions at places on earth around the arctic circle and I don't see why we can't have the Oltecs and Azcans on the Great Wastes. We aren't about to have jungles here but if we combine a few assumed factors it could work.
Have a look at Tromsø, it's over 200 miles inside the arctic circle and still only has an average January temperature of -4 °C.
If we also allow for geothermic activity in the Great Waste region, in addition to moderating ocean currents, we can have this area be quite habitable for its latitude. This could also help to explain how the Great Waste is so hot at its present latitude. ???
This idea have its advantages, like putting the Katapec civilization closer to the rest of the Oltecindian world and explaining the apparent absence of oltec ruins at the Great Waste and Sind. But at the same time, they're quite far from Atruaghin, Sind and Nithia, and it we would require a explanation for bringing the Coyotl lupins (Chochomec civilization) to Davania
I like it. After the GRoF the Great Waste region would warm up rapidly, drawing the Oltec and Azcan into it and closer to Sind. Neathar and Oltecs that had intermingled on the IoD would also expand towards the old north pole and come to the newly formed River Nithia fed by retreating glaciers. I'm not familiar with those lupins to comment yet.
I'm still playing around with the 'starting' positions of the three people groups. I'd like to have them fairly separated to begin with to help them develop and maintain their own unique cultures. From there they can begin to diverge as tribes become isolated and then interact with other culture. We could have one group for each continent; Neathar-Brun, Tanagoro-Skothar, and Oltec-Davania.
That's basically my idea and GP's as well. At least, the first Oltecindian civilization, the Orimul (M-Olmec) flourished in Davania. We, however, placed later civilizations in Brun, as direct cultural descendents from the Orimul city-states. And thus we have the problem of proximity with the blackmoorian known world and the ice caps...
I've been thinking about the Oltecs in the Great Waste/arctic circle location problem and think we might be able to do something here. Here's a possiblility using the Davanian origins for the Oltecs as you suggest
Yes, that's very like what I and GP had in mind, except that the oltecs that go to Brun through the Serpent Peninsula are the Oltecindians (M-Amerindians), while the group that migrated east into Skothar is part of a different oltec group (M-Altaic, including here Jennites, Ethengarians and Hulians): the Oltaic (ok, I just made this name up)! :D
I've also been researching conditions at places on earth around the arctic circle and I don't see why we can't have the Oltecs and Azcans on the Great Wastes. We aren't about to have jungles here but if we combine a few assumed factors it could work.
Sure, but then it wouldn't be the same, at least for the M-Mesoamerican, without jungles and deserts ;)
If we also allow for geothermic activity in the Great Waste region, in addition to moderating ocean currents, we can have this area be quite habitable for its latitude. This could also help to explain how the Great Waste is so hot at its present latitude. ???
I have counsidered this idea too, but I guess this could mean, in the end, that the Great Waste and the Alasiyan Desert were formed by the same reason (some sort of connection between then and the Plane of Fire). Wouldn't the idea be overused then?
But indeed, this could help Atruaghin and Nithian history happening as we know it.
I like it. After the GRoF the Great Waste region would warm up rapidly, drawing the Oltec and Azcan into it and closer to Sind. Neathar and Oltecs that had intermingled on the IoD would also expand towards the old north pole and come to the newly formed River Nithia fed by retreating glaciers. I'm not familiar with those lupins to comment yet.
They're not canon, just a idea for help the lupin history. The Chochomec tribe indeed exists, but HW only mentioned it once, at its timeline, and it's basically just a name. GP and I wrote a lot of things about them, but we haven't managed to transform it into a article yet (we're planning to do the same for other oltecindian civilizations as well, such as Proto-Mictec, Protec, Mictec (that gave origin to the Chochomec), Oltec, Azcan, Tahuaca, Atukaino, Otzil and others. We already have something for Lotomec and Orimul, but it need updates, assuming that we didn't know where the pre-GRoF north pole was until two months ago ;)).
As you know, you can find some inf about the Chochomecs here (and this one, BTW, also will need updates... and better maps! Zendrolion, aren't you interested in help me with that? ;):D)
Regarding the pre-GRoF North-Pole issue, I'm at the moment discussing it with LoZompatore, author of the pre-cataclysmic maps I've based my ethnography on (unfortunately the Italian MMB are still down since a month ago, and we had to move on another forum, which makes discussions slower). He's adjusting and updating the article he wrote years ago, and he's going to post it there once translated - so I'll basically await he has finished doing it to post my translated ethnography project, as it's based on the former and together with it my article will be much more comprehensible. ;)
By the way, the North-Pole issue is tricky mostly due to the weird positioning of the 90-degrees latitude on the HW post-cataclysmic map (the 90-degrees line doesn't take into account the gradual shift of the planet's crust toward the HW in higher latitudes). Anyway, pre-cataclysm Mystara should not suffer from it becouse polar openings were much smaller and irrelevant in terms of surface-shifting toward them.
Mystara's pre-cataclysm projection used by LoZompatore in maps like this was done using an appropriate software with which he managed to obtain the "right" (according to most canon) position of Mystara's landmasses before the GRoF. Therefore the position of the Arctic Circle should be also correct and located at about 66-degrees of latitude.
In this map, instead, I've simply tried to offer a sight of the pre-GRoF North Pole to show relative positions of peoples and races; obviously this map is not precise, as continental borders should be adjusted to pre-cataclysmic ones and moreover the Arctic Circle (red) has been traced in an approximate way, based more or less on the places it was passing throught in the previously linked map (the first with the whole pre-cataclysmic Mystara).
So, basically, I think the positioning of the Arctic Circle in those maps is rather correct. Perhaps Hugin is obtaining a different position becouse of the use of hex-grid maps for his projections (which may have caused some distortion); it may even be that LoZompatore's map has some mistakes, but I've to discuss this point with him.
Anyway, more on these things in the nearest future. ;)
Regarding the birth of humanity, I tried to have the origin of the human race all located in a single place - this is similar to what's speculated about RW origin of man - and I've chosen Skothar becouse we've there the Tanagoro and it's not worth any trouble to have them move in Skothar from elsewhere. Moreover, Skothar is linked to Brun in pre-cataclysmic Mystara, so this way we can move freely peoples between the two continents without any problems (and in fact we need to have both part of Neathars and Oltecs move to Brun).
Regarding the "polar" Oltec and Azcan civilizations, there were some solutions I thought about - they're still ideas:
* The planet's axial shift was turned the other way in regard to how it's after the cataclysm. This means that the norther hemisphere was turned more toward the sun than the souther one - the opposite of how it's today. Thus, we could have a warmer northern hemisphere and smaller artic icecap.
* We know from canon that the Alasyian Basin region has some sort of connection with the elemental forces. If we take fire into account as the main element of the area, we can explain why there are ice-free zones along habitable ones - even near or inside the Arctic Circle. (Sort of what Wilhelm was saying.)
* The Carnifex could have used some sort of device or spell to reduce the arctic icecap, in order to found there a colony or use the place as burial ground (do you remember the undead lizardmen of GAZ2, said to be more ancient than Blackmoor?).
* A mix of all the above.
Obviously, if you want to move the Oltecs and Azcans from the pre-cataclysmic Great Waste area, this could cause some problems with canon (which is rather clear about that) and then you should explain just why they move after the GRoF from a temperate-area to another temperate one (they've to come in the Atruaghin region).
(M-Altaic, including here Jennites, Ethengarians and Hulians): the Oltaic (ok, I just made this name up)! :D
I called them "Olthar", following a suggestion of Giulio Caroletti.
(and this one, BTW, also will need updates... and better maps! Zendrolion, aren't you interested in help me with that? ;):D)
If you need other maps I can surely give a hand! As soon as I quite other projects... :D (Feel free to ask me, truly! I'm more than happy to help. ;) )
By the way, the North-Pole issue is tricky mostly due to the weird positioning of the 90-degrees latitude on the HW post-cataclysmic map (the 90-degrees line doesn't take into account the gradual shift of the planet's crust toward the HW in higher latitudes). Anyway, pre-cataclysm Mystara should not suffer from it becouse polar openings were much smaller and irrelevant in terms of surface-shifting toward them.
Definitely. The HW polar maps are quite messed up as well. For some unexplained reason someone decided that 90° North was actually where the polar opening began at what should be ~60° North.
So, basically, I think the positioning of the Arctic Circle in those maps is rather correct. Perhaps Hugin is obtaining a different position becouse of the use of hex-grid maps for his projections (which may have caused some distortion); it may even be that LoZompatore's map has some mistakes, but I've to discuss this point with him.
I'm not quite sure why we have different size arctic circles. I do know that with my globe I can measure out distances very accurately in any direction without any distortion. I wonder if it has to do with my planet being larger and having a much wider Far End Ocean? Actually I think that may be it.
Also remember that I'm not using projections at all. I used maps that were created based on canon hex maps and wrapped them on a sphere. I can rotate the sphere without altering anything. Things look weird near the poles because we're not used to seeing the landmasses situated on such a small amount of area, and the globe I use can't account for the polar opening.
Take Alphatia for instance, on my globe it looks rather skinny. This is because Mystara's hex maps were created as lying 'flat' and not on a 'curve'. They assume that longitude lines remain fixed straight up and down and that makes northern Alphatia appear wider than it actually is. For a real world example of this, compare the size of Greenland on a common flat world map to it's actual size on a globe. Looking at this map the width of Greenland looks about the same as Africa's at the equator. In reality, Greenland's widest point is about 800 miles across, while Africa at the equator is over 2300 miles wide; that's a distortion of 3 times.
Anyway, more on these things in the nearest future. ;)
:D
Regarding the birth of humanity, I tried to have the origin of the human race all located in a single place - this is similar to what's speculated about RW origin of man...
I understand. This is merely a preference issue. Personally, I'm wanting to have it different from RW theories. I lean more towards created/altered origins for all life forms on Mystara. Even many 'monsters' of Mystara have the origin of alteration due to energies released by the Blackmoor explosion. Many creatures have been created by either Immortals or powerful magic-users or altered by them.
Regarding the "polar" Oltec and Azcan civilizations, there were some solutions I thought about - they're still ideas:
Interesting ideas. Any of them could be used.
Obviously, if you want to move the Oltecs and Azcans from the pre-cataclysmic Great Waste area, this could cause some problems with canon (which is rather clear about that) and then you should explain just why they move after the GRoF from a temperate-area to another temperate one (they've to come in the Atruaghin region).
I'd rather not move them either. One option is that they don't need to occupy the entire region. Can we defer the move to Atruaghin lands until after the GRoF? I can't remember off hand.
The climate could be warmer, Wikipedia has an article on Polar dinosaurs in Australia.
I also read the following from Wikipedia's Greenland article:
"Scientists who probed two kilometers (1.2 miles) through a Greenland glacier to recover the oldest plant DNA on record said Thursday the planet was far warmer hundreds of thousands of years ago than is generally believed. DNA of trees, plants and insects including butterflies and spiders from beneath the southern Greenland glacier..."
Regarding the birth of humanity, I tried to have the origin of the human race all located in a single place - this is similar to what's speculated about RW origin of man - and I've chosen Skothar becouse we've there the Tanagoro and it's not worth any trouble to have them move in Skothar from elsewhere. Moreover, Skothar is linked to Brun in pre-cataclysmic Mystara, so this way we can move freely peoples between the two continents without any problems (and in fact we need to have both part of Neathars and Oltecs move to Brun).
Oh, I'm not agaist that (and BTW, I think it's a good idea). I'm just saying that the Oltec, Neathar and Tanagoro cultures were born in Davania, Brun and Skothar
Obviously, if you want to move the Oltecs and Azcans from the pre-cataclysmic Great Waste area, this could cause some problems with canon (which is rather clear about that)
Could you help me finding where exactly canon says that? The only references I found are rather generic, such as GAZ14, p. 3: "Living in a lush tropical area, they had no contact with the other civilizations of the world".
[QUOTEI called them "Olthar", following a suggestion of Giulio Caroletti.
Good name, let's keep it ;)
If you need other maps I can surely give a hand! As soon as I quite other projects... :D (Feel free to ask me, truly! I'm more than happy to help. ;) )
:D
Indeed I do! But I will only be able to update the "Lupin Ethnographic History" after deciding the oltec/azcan situation anyway
I'd rather not move them either. One option is that they don't need to occupy the entire region. Can we defer the move to Atruaghin lands until after the GRoF? I can't remember off hand.
Actually, canon implies that. GAZ14, p. 3: "Seeking shelter from the shattered ecology around then, they began to dwell in caves cut into the side of a mighty plateau".
Could you help me finding where exactly canon says that? The only references I found are rather generic, such as GAZ14, p. 3: "Living in a lush tropical area, they had no contact with the other civilizations of the world".
Well, I was mostly thinking about HW maps:
HW Outer World Migration Map is rather precise as to Azcans' position in 3,000 BC, as it is HW Outer World Precataclysmic Map in regards to the Oltecs' one (both are located in the Great Waste).
Then, there're the followings:
PWAI, p. 17 (Atruaghin entry): The Atruaghin Clans are descendants of the Oltec and Azcan peoples who once dominated this region in ancient times.
PWAI, p. 20 (Azcan Empire entry): The Azcans are descendants of one of the major ancient races of the Known World.
PWAI, p. 67 (Oltec Kingdom entry): The Oltecs drifted out across broad reaches of the Known World, each separate group developing differently. [It's true that in PWAII this sentence has been changed, with "Known World" substituted with "Mystara's surface".]
Hollow World Campaign Setting, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 26 & p. 78 (both Azcan Empire and Oltec Hills section): Outer World Origin: Northern Continent (Atruaghin Area), ca 3,000 BC.
Hollow World Campaign Setting, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 11: 3,000 BC: The outer world Oltecs have become extinct. A hardy branch of the Azcans survive in deep caves of the huge plateau in what would later become Atruaghin Clan lands.
All in all, no one of these sentences is truly definitive about Oltecs' position, as each of them could be twisted or interpreted in some ways to justify a different position. The main canon hint about the Oltecs' location are the HW maps indeed.
Moreover there is also this strange sentence about Oltecs' position:
Hollow World Campaign Setting, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 10: 4,000 BC: Another human civilization, the Oltecs, begins a more stately rise toward civilization in lands far to the south of Blackmoor.
Which of course contradicts the HW boxed set's own maps, where the Oltecs are NOT located south of Blackmoor...
Well, I was mostly thinking about HW maps:
HW Outer World Migration Map is rather precise as to Azcans' position in 3,000 BC, as it is HW Outer World Precataclysmic Map in regards to the Oltecs' one (both are located in the Great Waste).
Yes, I know, we were using this map for placing the Oltecs and Azcans when we wrote our article about the oltec peoples.
All in all, no one of these sentences is truly definitive about Oltecs' position, as each of them could be twisted or interpreted in some ways to justify a different position. The main canon hint about the Oltecs' location are the HW maps indeed.
indeed.
Hollow World Campaign Setting, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 10: 4,000 BC: Another human civilization, the Oltecs, begins a more stately rise toward civilization in lands far to the south of Blackmoor.
Which of course contradicts the HW boxed set's own maps, where the Oltecs are NOT located south of Blackmoor...
Yes, I know! And I can't imagine any way to place them "south of blackmoor", unless we're using the post-GRoF north pole (even because anything would be south of it, hehe).
Wilhelm and I have talked about having the Oltecs emerge out of Davania and if we use this we could have Oltecs around the Adakkian Sound living in tropical forests roughly at 35° N latitude. Here's my thoughts:
*****
5000 years ago they expanded out and through isolation developed many unique tribes. One of the mightiest of these tribes, known as the Oltecs, began to conquer neighbouring tribes. Thus, this grouping of people are collectively known as Oltecs with all others being lost to history, except the rival tribe known as the Azcans.
These two groups competed for 500 years. During this time, villages were frequently razed and tribes moved often. Some crossed the Serpent Strait and followed the south and west coasts. The Karimari also arrived at this time and the clashing with the Oltec and Azcan polarized the two groups; the former holding the Peninsula's interior and the latter staying to the coastal regions.
Oltecs and Azcans reach the western shores now known as the Konumtali Savannah, but during their time it was a woodland moderated by warm ocean currents. The Oltec faction are driven a little further into the foothills of the Black Mountains while the Azcan faction discover mysterious earth farther inland; the ground would never freeze even in the harshest of winters. Geothermic activity below the surface allow life here to thrive.
Then the GRoF altered everything. The tropical forests around the Adakkian Sound dried up as vast deserts on either side began to form. Even tribes that had migrated outside this area began to change their culture as their environment changed around them. Immortals noticed this rapid changing of such an ancient culture and transported them to the Hollow World to preserve it and the people.
On Brun, the Oltecs and Azcans experienced a similar drying up of their environment. The land that wouldn't freeze now started to burn with its heat and would not support any life. They were forced to move or die. Traveling east they struggled against a dying land behind them and then retreating glaciers in front of them.
Then their shamans saw a great wall of land over a 1000 feet high with plant life that was actually growing around it instead of dying. They sought refuge here among the caves.
Some Oltecs traveled west instead and met other peoples and formed other cultures.
*****
There's my take on the situation at present. I think this could work out but I'd like to know if there's any problems with it that I can't see at the moment.
Despite saving those orimul city-states from the Y'hog Carnifex, the rising of the sea levels eventually destroyed most of the brunian Orimul civilization, leading to the Lotomec Empire (M-Teotihuacan), centered at the last powerful orimul city-state, Lotom (remember that Tolon is the possible original name of Teotihuacan ;)). This empire, however, also collapsed (c. 5000BC), allowing other oltecindian civilizations to flourish, such as the Otzil (M-Maya, at the SC), Tahuaca (M-Inca) and the Oltec (M-Toltec), that will eventually split into the Azcans (M-Aztec).
Do you guys think that geothermic heat could be enough to make that region warm, even being neighbour of (or even inside!) the arctic circle?
Yes, that's basically what me and GP imagined for the oltecindian civilizations...
It's good that we come up with similar scenarios then! :D
...except that originally we only placed the early Orimul civilization (M-Olmec) in Davania, c.10000BC.
I'm personally planing on staying with the canonical notion that humans appear around 6000 BC. Of course I'm sure I'll find conflicting info to the contrary but I'm fine with that. And it doesn't change the story really, just the time frames.
I was thinking about using a land bridge to the Serpent Peninsula too, but decided to follow the HW map's suggested coastlines. I didn't write it in but I thought about having many small islands in the Serpent Strait that they would have 'followed'. Once the oceans were raised after the GRoF these islands would have been lost. On a side note, these submerged islands could make the Strait a treacherous place for sea going vessels.
I should have included the rising sea level as another threat to the Oltecs and contributed to them being moved. That also reminds me that I wanted to comment on the fact that the Oltec and Azcan tribes that were in the north were chosen to be left behind on the outer world due the way they were already culturally changed from their southern brothers. The Immortals wanted to save the original culture of the Oltec and Azcans but the northern branch had already began taking their own path.
Do you guys think that geothermic heat could be enough to make that region warm, even being neighbour of (or even inside!) the arctic circle?
I don't know about making it warm, but certainly livable. I even envision lots of snow on the ground, however, what made it unique is that the ground didn't freeze up solid. Combine that with a moderating ocean effect and they could live there. Afterall, Tromso in Norway is over 200 miles (350 km) inside the arctic circle where "The lowest temperature ever recorded is –18.4 °C, and the January average is a mere –4 °C".
To make canon work, we have to have them in this area (not necessarily covering the entire region to be known as the Sind Desert) but at least within a few hundred miles of the coast. Going by my maps the arctic circle doesn't begin until you reach the 'twin oasis' in the modern Sind Desert, and going by Zendrolion's maps you can go all the way to the nation of Sind before hitting the arctic circle. So either way, we can keep them outside the arctic circle if we want to.
As I see it, they would adapt to their surroundings and their culture would evolve accordingly. After the GRoF when their environment changed to become much warmer, their culture would evolve accordingly yet again. This helps explain the differences between the Oltec/Azcan cultures and the Sindhi/Atruaghin cultures.
I'm personally planing on staying with the canonical notion that humans appear around 6000 BC. Of course I'm sure I'll find conflicting info to the contrary but I'm fine with that. And it doesn't change the story really, just the time frames.
Yes, I know
But since Geoff's timelines for the Orimul and Y'hog Carnifex (here and here) starts in 10000 BC, I decided to respect it. But if you want to the humans (or at least human civilizations) appear c. 6000 BC, you could easily ignore Orimul and use the rest of the timeline (Ltomecs and beyond)
I was thinking about using a land bridge to the Serpent Peninsula too, but decided to follow the HW map's suggested coastlines.
Yes, we used it only because it was back in 10000 BC, during, pehaps, a natural Ice Age that may allowed it.
I should have included the rising sea level as another threat to the Oltecs and contributed to them being moved. That also reminds me that I wanted to comment on the fact that the Oltec and Azcan tribes that were in the north were chosen to be left behind on the outer world due the way they were already culturally changed from their southern brothers. The Immortals wanted to save the original culture of the Oltec and Azcans but the northern branch had already began taking their own path.
So, the "classic" Oltec and Azcan civilizations flourished in Davania instead of Brun?
As I see it, they would adapt to their surroundings and their culture would evolve accordingly. After the GRoF when their environment changed to become much warmer, their culture would evolve accordingly yet again. This helps explain the differences between the Oltec/Azcan cultures and the Sindhi/Atruaghin cultures.
Indeed.
But now I'm imagining if the geothermic activity and sea currents wouldn't be able to make the Kolumtali Savannah and eastern Great Waste warm enough (temperate or even tropical) for supporting all those oltecindian civilizations, a mystaran Savage Land
Yes, I know
But since Geoff's timelines for the Orimul and Y'hog Carnifex (here and here) starts in 10000 BC, I decided to respect it. But if you want to the humans (or at least human civilizations) appear c. 6000 BC, you could easily ignore Orimul and use the rest of the timeline (Ltomecs and beyond)
I'm having a hard enough time just dealing with getting canon to pan out! ;) :D
I could still possibly use the events but just condense the time spans a bit.
Yes, we used it only because it was back in 10000 BC, during, pehaps, a natural Ice Age that may allowed it.
Ah, I didn't realize how far back you guys were talking about!
So, the "classic" Oltec and Azcan civilizations flourished in Davania instead of Brun?
That's basically what I'm thinking. So far it's the only way I've managed to reconcile as much canon info as possible.
But now I'm imagining if the geothermic activity and sea currents wouldn't be able to make the Kolumtali Savannah and eastern Great Waste warm enough (temperate or even tropical) for supporting all those oltecindian civilizations, a mystaran Savage Land
I wouldn't go as far as to say it was that mild. The Kolumtali Savannah region is what I had in mind for the main population of Azcans while the Oltecs would be just above them (actually west of them at the time) in the foot hills of the Black Mountains. I figure the Azcans were the ones doing most of the 'pushing' so it made sense to have the Oltecs farther away.You could possibly have numerous oltecindian populations on the other side of the Black Mountains and around the Bay of Hule once they found a way through.
I'm having a hard enough time just dealing with getting canon to pan out! ;) :D
Lol! Yes, when I wrote the first draft of the oltecindian history, I wasn't thinking the KW as the north pole, so I could also include others' works into it without much problem.
I could still possibly use the events but just condense the time spans a bit.
Sure, it would work as well
That's basically what I'm thinking. So far it's the only way I've managed to reconcile as much canon info as possible.
Yes, it's a good way to make things work
But we still have the Coyotl lupin problem to deal with... *sigh*
You could possibly have numerous oltecindian populations on the other side of the Black Mountains and around the Bay of Hule once they found a way through.
Pehaps more or less something like it?
I guess that it represents the Azcan/Oltec borders by 3750 BC. The Mictecs (Chochomecs) would actually be part of the Azcan Empire, while the Protecs, Oltecs and Tahuaca would be united as a single nation.
But we still have the Coyotl lupin problem to deal with... *sigh*
I've looked into this quickly on Pandius but wasn't sure; what exactly is the problem with them? If they are non-canon we'll have nearly unlimited leeway in adjusting things so they work. If they're canon it may be much more difficult.
Pehaps more or less something like it?
I guess that it represents the Azcan/Oltec borders by 3750 BC. The Mictecs (Chochomecs) would actually be part of the Azcan Empire, while the Protecs, Oltecs and Tahuaca would be united as a single nation.
I don't know. I think that the Black Mountains would be too harsh during this time due to the high altitude and lack of either oceanic or geothermic effects. Personally, I'd keep populations to southern or western foothills. According to my interpretation of Mystara, the arctic circle would've pasted through the areas marked as the Twin Oasis and between the towns of Khuur and Magden.
Perhaps their territories could be a little smaller since they are splinter groups. Plus, I'd probably keep them closer to the sea since that would provide considerable resources.
What are the cultural differences of these groups? Knowing that may help to place them.
I've looked into this quickly on Pandius but wasn't sure; what exactly is the problem with them? If they are non-canon we'll have nearly unlimited leeway in adjusting things so they work. If they're canon it may be much more difficult.
Well, the name of this people is canon, even if appeared only once at HW timeline ;)
But the problem is to bring lupins out of Brun. IIRC, they nver left this continent, reaching only Nentsun (Norworld Malamute) and Ochalea. And it becomes even more problematic if we want to use then as the origin for the Hutaakans ;)
I don't know. I think that the Black Mountains would be too harsh during this time due to the high altitude and lack of either oceanic or geothermic effects. Personally, I'd keep populations to southern or western foothills. According to my interpretation of Mystara, the arctic circle would've pasted through the areas marked as the Twin Oasis and between the towns of Khuur and Magden.
Oh, I see. We can fix this, then ;)
Perhaps their territories could be a little smaller since they are splinter groups. Plus, I'd probably keep them closer to the sea since that would provide considerable resources.
What are the cultural differences of these groups? Knowing that may help to place them.
Sure
Here's the equivalences:
Oltec - Toltec
Azcan - Aztec
Otzil - Maya
Tenac - Tenec/Huastec (now shown at the map, should live quite close to the Oltecs)
Protecs - Zapotec
Mictec - Mixtec
Tahuaca - Inca (actually formed by 4 different peoples (its name means "The Four Peoples"), but the imperial politics of mixing then made then rather homogeneous)
Lotomec - Teotihuacan
Orimul - Olmec
Atukaino - Arawak
Zumache - Zuni/Apache
It's possible that the Azcans were, originally, Zumache that learned the Oltec ways. So, it's possible that the Zumache live close to them (pehaps the Savannah wasn't a forest but indeed a savannah or plains by that time?)
This is the basic framework that I use for where things were before the GRoF. My comments below basically use this as reference.
The basic outline corresponds well with LoZompatore's earlier work, with a slight shift in the degree of rotation. The population maps were generated with Ethengar/Glantri as the astronomical north pole, while the glacier maps moved it west to the Adri Varma Plateau (the Plateau is the plug). (more on this in the Blackmoor thread). I also assume more water was locked up in the ice cap, dropping sea level.
On the Oltecs:
The Azcans dwelled in the jungle lowlands of the Oltec Empire. It was their ancestors (before they were ever called Azcans) that dwelled within the northern (arctic?) desert. That works as the southern edge of the Great Waste below the ice shield. I put the Oltecs in Davania and allow the Serpent Peninsula to conect (or at least extend close enough for reasonable travel).
All of the various early Oltec-related folks reside around the Addakkian Sound, 4 Kingdoms region.
It's possible that the Azcans were, originally, Zumache that learned the Oltec ways.
I can't recall how others adopted them for their Oltec-timeline, but when I coined them, I meant for them to be the tribes who fled the Oltec-Azcan War for the Savage Coast, rather than progenitors of the Azcans. The Protecs, Mictecs, and some of the others were to represent the early Gulf coast civilizations to account for the time before the Oltecs had their own civilization and empire.
Hollow World Campaign Setting, Dungeon Master's Sourcebook, p. 10: 4,000 BC: Another human civilization, the Oltecs, begins a more stately rise toward civilization in lands far to the south of Blackmoor.
far to south doesn't necessarily mean due south. I think the comment was offered more in the spirit of simple latitude, but I could be wrong.
-OldDawg
Personally, I'm comfortable scrapping or minimizing the canonicity of the HW pre-cat map, for technical reasons.
Definitely. I'm focusing on what the written descriptions are and trying to reconcile it.
This is the basic framework that I use for where things were before the GRoF. My comments below basically use this as reference.
I've looked at these before; good maps. I do have a question though. Both LoZompatore and yourself have Davania's eastern peninsula make a sharp turn to the west and extend back towards the Far End Ocean. I haven't been able to figure out why.
...the glacier maps moved it west to the Adri Varma Plateau (the Plateau is the plug). (more on this in the Blackmoor thread). I also assume more water was locked up in the ice cap, dropping sea level.
I'll await the Adri Varma Plateau case in the Blackmoor thread but I do think, and agree, that the HP map didn't change enough of the world's coastlines to represent the level to which the oceans were lower pre-GRoF.
On the Oltecs:
It was their ancestors (before they were ever called Azcans) that dwelled within the northern (arctic?) desert. That works as the southern edge of the Great Waste below the ice shield. I put the Oltecs in Davania and allow the Serpent Peninsula to conect (or at least extend close enough for reasonable travel).
You basically did a similar thing as I did except in reverse. :D
All of the various early Oltec-related folks reside around the Addakkian Sound, 4 Kingdoms region.
Again, same page as I was thinking.
I can't recall how others adopted them for their Oltec-timeline, but when I coined them, I meant for them to be the tribes who fled the Oltec-Azcan War for the Savage Coast, rather than progenitors of the Azcans. The Protecs, Mictecs, and some of the others were to represent the early Gulf coast civilizations to account for the time before the Oltecs had their own civilization and empire.
This is the way I'd like to have them handled and would work extremely well with what I've written in this thread.
far to south doesn't necessarily mean due south. I think the comment was offered more in the spirit of simple latitude, but I could be wrong.
If it is taken as literal then we would have to place the Oltec civilization in the Tangor Chain and that just doesn't go well with other canon.
Well, the name of this people is canon, even if appeared only once at HW timeline ;)
Where abouts? I can't find it.
But the problem is to bring lupins out of Brun. IIRC, they nver left this continent, reaching only Nentsun (Norworld Malamute) and Ochalea. And it becomes even more problematic if we want to use then as the origin for the Hutaakans ;)
I don't think this should be too difficult. I'm not even against saying the Hutaaka are actually a lupin sub-breed.
Here's the equivalences:
Thanks very much. I'll do some reading and note-taking over the next few days.
Both LoZompatore and yourself have Davania's eastern peninsula make a sharp turn to the west and extend back towards the Far End Ocean. I haven't been able to figure out why.
I'll try and explain. The main visual problem with, say, the Master's Map is that there is a lot of open space beyond the continental coastlines which is interpreted to be all water. If there really is that much arctic and antarctic water, its a natural conjecture that the local orientation of the coasts is closer to a true representation and should preserve themselves under rotation with minimal contraction or expansion.
Mystara differs from the Master's map, though, in basically eliminating all of that polar water. The closer a line is to either the old or new poles, the greater the distortion.
Now why does Vulcania specifically have this funky reverse "C" thing going on? Vulcania has a roughly latitudinal (horizontal) shape. So if it has length L, sits on latitude degree S, and the planet has radius R, the latitude circumfrance is normally
C = 2 x pi x R x cos(S)
The fraction of circumfrance corresponding to Vulcania's length is then
L/C = L/[2 x pi x R x cos(S) ].
Now as S increases towards 90 degrees (by cutting out all that water), the fraction increases. After it passes .5, it will start to curl back.
To see this effect for yourself, get a tape measure, marker, and a ball or curved bowl that you can write on. Draw horizontal lines of equal length at the widest thickness and several smaller thicknesses. Now flip the ball or bowl up so you are looking at the bottom. See how the lines creep further and further around as you get closer to the bottom? If your lengths were large enough, they'll start to curl back in the other direction.
Depending on how your source map handled stretch at the polar limits, Google Maps should give you the same kind of result. If it doesn't, add in strips of ocean in the north and south (don't worry about fitting latitudes, we're looking for qualitative outline), and you should see the magic "C" appear in the south.
-OldDawg
I'll try and explain.
Thanks, I see what you mean now. As a matter of fact you can see it a tiny bit in this map of the south pole:
However, I found that there wasn't enough 'space' in the southern hemisphere compared to the northern one so it was necessary for me to add ocean there. Not only that but we also need a much larger Far End Ocean. Without having it, we have to stretch our maps to reach around our globe and this would distort our hex maps east-west. In other words, our world maps are far too square in shape and needed to be made to the requisite 2:1 ratio rectangle.
could you link to the original source file that you're using for Google Maps? There are distortion problems between the Master's Map and OW planisphere, and it would be interesting which one yours is based upon. The latter already does some of your contraction, so if you wrap that image onto a sphere, distortions will be doubly so. And the various latitude mentions on the various maps (e.g. PWAI and PWAII) produce an over-determined system.
As to the 2:1 ratio. let Middle Hyborea and southern Davania set your height and add water to the eastern and western edges to create the correct ratio. That should correct for the problem.
-OldDawg
I can't recall how others adopted them for their Oltec-timeline, but when I coined them, I meant for them to be the tribes who fled the Oltec-Azcan War for the Savage Coast, rather than progenitors of the Azcans.
I know that
It's just that's the original azcan language possibly wasn't M-Nahuatl. So, the Zumache may be not only "progenitors" of the Azcans, but also the tribe that, with the Azcans, gave origin to modern Atruaghin clans.
The Protecs, Mictecs, and some of the others were to represent the early Gulf coast civilizations to account for the time before the Oltecs had their own civilization and empire.
And I'm still waiting (a year and a half! lol) for you to explain who the Lomecs and Protomecs were, I can't find anything about then on the internet! ;)
Where abouts? I can't find it.
1470 BC: The Chochomecs (an Azcan tribe) desert Atacalpa, migrating to Oltec lands of the east. (HWR1 Sons of Azca)
I don't think this should be too difficult. I'm not even against saying the Hutaaka are actually a lupin sub-breed.
I'm not also saying that they're lupins, but that they came from them, through Pflarr's magical blessing. Either way, they should got in Nithia with the Azcans. The question is how far from there the Azcans were during the GRoF ;)
Hugin,
could you link to the original source file that you're using for Google Maps?
Well, to start with I suggest you review the Google Mystara thread as it has some good information in it about what was done. Unfortunately, I can't find the map I used on the internet anymore, but it was done by Kal and was discussed here quite some time ago.
AFAIK, his map was based on Mystara's hex maps and not on any projection style world map. His map is at 24 miles per hex. I have maintained this scale on a north-south basis but obviously the east-west scale gets 'squished' as you travel from the equator.
I find it the best to work with because of the fact it is based on the hex maps, while I tend to view the other world maps as guess-maps for illustrative purposes only. That means the global map should be more compatible with actual game play.
As to the 2:1 ratio. let Middle Hyborea and southern Davania set your height and add water to the eastern and western edges to create the correct ratio. That should correct for the problem.
I'm not sure I understand your suggestion, sorry.
What I found was that on all the maps I tried there was more northern hemisphere than southern. This caused the the middle of the map (which would become the equator on the globe) to be much farther north than it should; hence the trimming of the north and addition to the south. That is how I set my height. If I arbitrarily set my map's height, I lose all consistency with all of our hex maps.
Once my height had been established, and it followed our hex maps, I needed a lot of ocean to be added to get the ratio.
I think it boils down to this; if I were to use the global maps (such as the HW's or Master's) I would have a much greater freedom to adjust things as you say and keep things relatively right. However, I'm using a map that is based on detailed maps of Mystara and this makes adjustments very difficult. I hope some of this babbling makes sense. :D
1470 BC: The Chochomecs (an Azcan tribe) desert Atacalpa, migrating to Oltec lands of the east. (HWR1 Sons of Azca)
Oh, I never thought to look in those books!
That is a really odd entry since it doesn't start, follow or end any story arc. It's just there. I'm not even sure if it refers to the OW or HW!
I'm not also saying that they're lupins, but that they came from them, through Pflarr's magical blessing.
I like that! Shouldn't be too difficult to manage I'd say.
Oh, I never thought to look in those books!
That is a really odd entry since it doesn't start, follow or end any story arc. It's just there. I'm not even sure if it refers to the OW or HW!
Yes, indeed! So, why not make something interesting for them as well? ;)
I like that! Shouldn't be too difficult to manage I'd say.
Just stumbled upon this one while checking out something else; the Azcan referred to the 'land of the dead' as Mictlan and so the Atruaghin name for the under world may be related to it. (HWR1 timeline)
BTW, GP had a quite nice idea connecting the Mictecs with the "original" Mictlán. The Mictecs created a lot of undeads and slaved the coyotl (thus reforcing the Oltec/Azcan concept that dogs are the ones that guide the souls to the afterlife; Toyna Qhuay's (Saimpt Loup) portfolio also helped this idea), before they got their rebelled and became the Chochomecs.
Could this "original" Mictlán be also a subterranean city as well, insiring Atruatzin to name his own subterranean settlement as Mictlán?
1470 BC: The Chochomecs (an Azcan tribe) desert Atacalpa, migrating to Oltec lands of the east. (HWR1 Sons of Azca)
Yes, indeed! So, why not make something interesting for them as well? ;)
Absolutely! You know what though, I'm really beginning to think that they were in the HW. Consider our info:
- the date is post HW transplant and it's in a HW product.
- traveling east (which in the HW is to the left on a map) leads to the Oltec Hills.
I wonder if TSR was planning on an Oltec HWR# product that built on this entry?
Absolutely! You know what though, I'm really beginning to think that they were in the HW. Consider our info:
- the date is post HW transplant and it's in a HW product.
- traveling east (which in the HW is to the left on a map) leads to the Oltec Hills.
And that's indeed the idea
They left HW Azcan Empire after Atzanteotl became the main Immortal of there, possibly guided by Saimpt Loup, Pflarr and Korotiku, joining the Oltecs
I wonder if TSR was planning on an Oltec HWR# product that built on this entry?
Yes, I also had this impression, pehaps something like HWR4 The Seven Cities of the Oltecs
And that's indeed the idea
They left HW Azcan Empire after Atzanteotl became the main Immortal of there, possibly guided by Saimpt Loup, Pflarr and Korotiku, joining the Oltecs
Oh!
Yes, I also had this impression, pehaps something like HWR4 The Seven Cities of the Oltecs
Actually, that sounds like a fantastic idea for use in the Black Mountains/Savage Coast region where the Oltecs used to be! Great adventure hooks for the area. Maybe legends like these could be what drew exploration in the region from such remote nations.
Actually, that sounds like a fantastic idea for use in the Black Mountains/Savage Coast region where the Oltecs used to be! Great adventure hooks for the area. Maybe legends like these could be what drew exploration in the region from such remote nations.
Indeed. And GP and I were already using this ideaas one of the reasons for the ispan migration ;)
Pehaps there were once seven otzil cities at the baronial region? I'd bet that Puerto Morillos and Ciudad Quimeras were once otzil ruins filled with gold and silver, while Antro do Dragão was as well originally a otzil city (later rebuild by the Nithians). My idea is that Tehil (Ciudad Tejillas) wasn't "lost" at all, still being inhabited by otzils until 900 AC. I guess that the other three or four were once where now we have Torreón.
We also have other "lost cities" along the coast or close to it, those of X6 Quagmire! (Thanopolis and the Sunken City) and X9 Savage Coast (Risilvar)
Indeed. And GP and I were already using this ideaas one of the reasons for the ispan migration ;)
Great Minds think alike, Wilhelm! Referring to GP and yourself, of course. ;)
And that's indeed the idea
They left HW Azcan Empire after Atzanteotl became the main Immortal of there, possibly guided by Saimpt Loup, Pflarr and Korotiku, joining the Oltecs
I forgot to ask you if there is anything done with these lupin Chochomecs after they arrived in the Oltec lands. Did they integrate or able to maintain their own cultural identity?
demostrating so much interest in debating every little detail of the setting is something i've seen only in high-budget backgrounds as star wars, and let me just say that this is way better!
Keep it up :D
Great Minds think alike, Wilhelm! Referring to GP and yourself, of course. ;)
Hehe, thanks :D
I forgot to ask you if there is anything done with these lupin Chochomecs after they arrived in the Oltec lands. Did they integrate or able to maintain their own cultural identity?
Actually we never detailed it that much, but they probably joined the protecs of Bitac, since they share a related language and have more in common than the other peoples of the oltec hills.
even if i don't know what to answer....well uyou guys are simply the best!
demostrating so much interest in debating every little detail of the setting is something i've seen only in high-budget backgrounds as star wars, and let me just say that this is way better!
Keep it up :D
Thanks a lot! And, of course, you're invited to join the discussion ;)