Second let's decide what kind of things we are going to post on the site (Articles, Fan-Fiction, New spells, feats, etc.). We also need to figure out who is going to make the site and maintain it, Although I suppose it could be a collaborated effort.
Ok, post your thoughts and let's make it happen.
1: Greyhawk: Into the Flanaess
Cool name though.
If your going to use a generic writing theme in the site, any old name would work. The advantage is that this is much, much easier to design, develope, and keep working. You could tweak it though to give it more of a GH flavor.
Here's an idea that sprung to mind just now. The Circle of Eight is such a prominent figure in GH. Design the website with that in mind, as if each 'catagory' of resources was presented by one of the circle members: Rary's Dark Minions to detail things like creatures, vile aspects of GH and such or Mordenkainen's Eye to detail news of all things GH (site updates, other web related news, even other d20 resources that can enhance a GH campaign), or Tensers Webs of Interconnectivity (NPCs, current affairs of important personages), etc. Sounds corny in brief, I know. But I think it could be done with style and flair. Besides, who wouldn't want to visit a section of Otto's Great And Wonderous Tricks, Puns, and Mischevious Misadventures as opposed to a section dubbed simply GH humor.
I really like Mach 2.5's suggestions. That would be a great layout.
Posted from another thread:
Regulars- Weekly/Monthly features similar to those on the D&D website. Monster Mayhem, Spellbook, etc.
Active Forums- Have a set of boards which people actually want to post in regularly. Hold message board campaigns to playtest new materials and ideas.
Advertisement- Almost to the extreme. Get it up everywhere. If they play D&D, they should know about Greyhawk. If they know about Greyhawk, they should know about the site.
Campaigns- Create a new "Living" League for the website. Use results to create new storyline ideas and adventure hooks.
Crunchiness- Goes back to regulars. More crunchy bits to actually use in a campaign. We have the history extremely well covered online. Concentrate on items, feats, PrCs, spells, etc. that people will use and that are Greyhawk specific.
I was slightly serious when I said PlanetGreyhawk. Get a high profile site, combine with another big company, advertising, etc. One might be able to pull off getting a PlanetGreyhawk with the coming release of ToEE.
or possibly combine it with the first suggestion Greyhawk: Planet Oerth. And the Circle of Eight is a cool idea but I think that would have to be used as the name once your in the site and for its layout. Not for its actual domain name. For the actual site or domain name we have to stick to Greyhawk: - Whatever- but I'm thinking it has to start with Greyhawk or it will be pointless. Newcomers will have to search to hard for it. Remember K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid.
As for content - DO NOT OVER DEVELOPE OERTH!!! Lay down the basics, histories, gods. Put in a Greyhawks "Happenings" page where players can post whats happening in thier Greyhawk. Possibly expand in to new areas, continents, islands. I personally find PrC's pointless but I believe I'm a minority so create PrC's geared specifically to Oerth. Blah - Blah - Blah -
Heres a thought, actually listen to and use the suggestions and ideas that people post or email in. From what I've seen at most sites, our ideas mean "JACK" to whoever is running the site. They just fall on deaf ears, I've read some fantastic suggestions by some incredibly talented imaginitive writers and by just regular players. Where are those ideas now? Sadly, they are gone, gathering nano dust in some harddrives archive.
Anywho, blah blah blah. As I was saying - don't over develope.
As for content - DO NOT OVER DEVELOPE OERTH!!! Lay down the basics, histories, gods.
Not quite sure I understand what you mean by 'overdeveloping' here? Are you meaning: You shouldn't be allowed to take individual gaming group's submissions for what they've done with a certain region, city, group, or whatnot that expands on GH? Or do you mean 'don't present anything new, non-cannon, that has not already been talked about to death, adventured in to death, or written about to death'? Or do you mean 'new ideas, views, or opinions about GH are entirely unwelcome since they might inject a little life into GH?' Sorry, just asking for clarification on what you mean. Just not sure about the point of even doing a large scale co-op project that in the end amounts to nothing more than a few choice words about GH and that's it.
Keep to the basics, the foundations with ideas for DM's to expand into. Do not describe in detail every major "player" and township.
Do put up afew city layouts, basic overviews of governments and major happenings. Leave details to individual DM's. Leave areas to be fleshed out be the DM's. Keep the setting raw, rough and without fluff.
As for opinions, ideas and player views being unwelcome, where did you get that? Did you read my post? Or any other post of mine? I am constantly ranting about listening to and using actual player and DM's ideas of where they have taken the setting or where they would like to take it. On another thread I offered to compile and organize ideas and areas that others have developed or built up. Then email them back out to all who were interested. The thought of another generic book or setting being hemoraged forth makes me gag. Actual PC and DM or gaming group ideas, views, opinions is a must. Did anyone actually take me up on said offer? Of course not, complaining is way more enjoyable than acting to fix our complaints.
As for opinions, ideas and player views being unwelcome, where did you get that? Did you read my post? Or any other post of mine? I am constantly ranting about listening to and using actual player and DM's ideas of where they have taken the setting or where they would like to take it. On another thread I offered to compile and organize ideas and areas that others have developed or built up. Then email them back out to all who were interested. The thought of another generic book or setting being hemoraged forth makes me gag. Actual PC and DM or gaming group ideas, views, opinions is a must.
Sorry, I'm not trying to flame you or get under your skin about anything here. Also, I don't tend to associate cross postings, there's just too many posters to keep track of who said what on a thread that may be a few days old (and for one who's mind just ain't quite as sharp as it used to be, it may have well been posted last year, sorry). I only consider the current thread that I'm posting on to contain an individual's relevant information and views (harsh, I know, but I'm not a mental giant).
Also hate to say it, but yes, your saying that to a degree, an individual's ideas, suggestions, and developements are not overly welcome.
Leave details to individual DM's. Leave areas to be fleshed out be the DM's. Keep the setting raw, rough and without fluff
And what then does a DM do with all his wonderfully crafted ideas when the night ends? Sends them over to the webbie for anyone else to use. Then, if another group wants to use the ideas, wether crunchy or fluffy ones, they can. If they don't like the ideas, they can leave them on the net and not the game table. If one group has a hard time whipping up a map and details for Shwartzenbruin (or, as more often happens, doesn't have the time to do it) and yet someone else detailed it and posted it, then bingo, another disasterous night diverted by your friends at the GH website.
I really do agree with you that I'd rather be the one to develope my own fluff for my own game, but not everyone plays that way. A fair assumption is a 50/50 split between those who are apt and able to come up with their own fluff and those who lack the time or creativity. Also, nothing it cannon. Even official printed material is not cannon if you ditch it from your own game. If your biggest complaint about FR is that they detail eveything that some groups would rather do themselves, then your missing a major point in the game: everything single word from any single resource is optional. Also known as Rule 1. If you actually get past the FR stigma (I know, its hard and took me many months of therapy before I could do it), you'd find a wealth of ideas that can be used in GH rather easily. Like making Elminster an immortal and unkillable being tied to a rack in the middle of Greyhawk City where everyone who passes by can take a stab at him over, and over, and over . . . .
I'm rabbling again. Sorry. Basically I'm trying to say don't limit yourself if you go onward with the web idea. And don't neglect that other 50% of GH fans who are craving new ideas to use in their game, some of those ideas may be the kinds of fluff you yourself are not particularly fond of. But that's the great thing about having a different opinion of things ;)
Lastly, as for handing out GH material, your gonna have to wait a little. I've been so wrapped up in Dark Sun lately (well, for a few years lately) that I'm going to need a break and get back to my roots a little very soon so I'll be getting to work with GH again. I donated my entire GH collection to a children's leukemia foundation some time back so I'm waiting till I can get a credit card to start nabbing up the old books off the ESD (or ebay, but there's not much GH stuff there at the moment).
(edited because, although English is my first and only language, the subtle and intricate nature of using it entirely eludes me at time, i.e. spelling bites)
Edit: Categorize submissions by degree of fluff. Then people can download it to their hearts content. Or, better yet, have the articles for the monthly/weekly features come in fluffy and no fluffy versions. Problem solved! ;)
Second - Mach2.5 - Sorry if I got snotty. I'm sure you didn't mean to flame me but there are a few others that did, I think I'm still dragging that baggage and not taking criticism well. Maybe I'll join you in therapy.
You are most definitly right, I did enjoy alot of aspects in FR. Something about it just comes across as lame. Ya know, bits of this - bits of that. Enough to make the whole of it so trite and fluffy. I tried to play it and like it, I really did I swear. I just couldn't do it. I felt like a sell out and never been able to do that, loyal to the core I guess.
If I made it sound as if ideas were not welcome than I need to learn to better express my opinion. Thats the opposite of what I would like to see. I would love nothing more than to have access to ideas on areas I don't normally take our group. i.e. - We usually run Central (around Greyhawk) to N/W Oerth (around Perrenland) so I'm not familiar with, say, the S/E areas. So wouldn't it be cool to have a place to go to get quick ideas on the goings on in said areas if my group had to go there. Does that make sense? If groups or players or DM's could send ideas, suggestions, current happenings, towns, taverns, whatever on areas they do use. Make them easy to referance - i.e. Seperate Greyhawk in to blocks and submit ideas to its specific block so you wouldn't have to search all over for information.
As for giving away all your Greyhawk stuff - OUCH. I did the same thing years ago and had to rebuy it all acouple years later. At least you had a noble cause.
Try going to:
http://www.svgames.com/downloads-wotc-adndgrhwk.html
they have stuff cheap. The original Greyhawk and Ashes.
I hope I expressed myself better this time!! I'm starting to think I need social therapy.
What is cannon??
Crypto has the plan - Fluff or no fluff?
You slay me!!
LOL!!!
So, we have the idea for a name, now we just need someone to host a site and someone to make it. Any ideas?
Also, if we wanted to go an absolutely free route, you could have the site hosted on www.freewebs.com, use www.proboards.com for the forums, and in order to avoid a long, forgettable address, use www.dot.tk and register a free "www.yourname.tk". ;)
Let's make this happen guys...
:DI'd love to help with the site design. I know a smidgen of HTML and javascripting, but not much (I'd be lost without a guidbook). Alas, I'm crappy with graphics. I found a graphic artist willing to work on my DS site for free to expand his portfolio, but I doubt he'd take a second commission.
As for hosting, most of the main RPG news and resource sites offer some kind of hosting for free and with no major advertising (banner link back to the host is all, but you can place the banner where it is appropriate for the site).
Mortality.net was one I was thinking of looking into since they don't have too many sites lited under hosting and those that are there are not very large sites. Could be a good sign ;) Also, they offer subdomain names (i.e. mortality.net/greyhawkwebbie) and I'm not sure if any others do as well (saves 10-25 bucks a year on paying for your own domain name). The problem with some 'major' free hosts (even the biggies like geocities) is that they like to randomly delete a person's webpages for no apparent reason. Doesn't happen to everyone, but I've heard it often enough to be more than distrustful.
As for good 1e and 2e material for GH, the adage 'basics are best' fits rather well with older GH material. Greyhawk Wars and Up from the Ashes are a must, Iuz the Evil was also good. Vale of the Mage, Scarlet Brotherhood, and The Marklands are all decent sourcebooks. As for adventures, its kinda 50-50. Castle Greyhawk was a bizzarro oddity that contradicted many things GH that I thought was best avoided. Rary the Traitor and the Return of the Eight are also must haves for background (Return of the Eight was a serious but funny adventure, depending on how your DM runs poor Tenser;)). If I remember right, Child's play was a good adventure, not so contrived. Alot of old 1e adventures were set in GH, even if it didn't have the title on the cover. Lost Caverns of Tsojacilinthinboppawhoddajiggy (can't remember how to spell it) was a good old dungeon crawl set in Perrenland, as an example. Basically, in 1e, if it wasn't specifically geared for another setting (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Blackmoor, I'm missing one here but can't think of it) was designed for GH (see, its always been the default setting, lol). Also, the Ivid the Undying download is a must have as well. Its found here, hidden away on the WOTC site, along with the maps.
I'm thinking of naming it Greyhawk: Into the Flanaess, as that name just appeals to me more.
Also, for the domain name I'm thinking www.greyhawk-adventures.com or www.greyhawkadventures.com. Which one do you guys like better? I suppose it just depends on whether or not you find the "-" annoying or not. I thought greyhawkadventures would be a nice domain name because it would be easy to remember and find on the WWW, and that is exactly what we are going for here.
I definitly want to use the idea for The Circle of Eight name-based sections, and this is what we are looking at...
The Circle of Eight
1. Mordenkainen
2. Bigby
3. Otto
4. Jallarzi
5. Drawmij
6. Nystul
7. Warnes
8. Alhamazad
9. Theodain
According to my Living Greyhawk Gaz., this is the most current list.
So that gives us 9 sections to work with.
Also, I was thinking of having a section for the more "dark" things entitled "Iuz's Dark Deceptions" or something like that.
Website Sections
1. News/Current Events/Recent Updates (This will go to Mordenkainen I think, perhaps under the name "Mordenkainen's Eye"
2. Information on fanmade areas and locations.
3. Fanmade items
4. Fanmade spells
5. Fanmade monsters & NPCs
6. Fanmade PrCs
7. Other Fanmade things, such as feats or optional rules
8. Fan fiction
9. A messageboard / or Greyhawk Humor
I think in the "Mordenkainen's Eye" section, which will almost serve as like a central page, we could have weekly / monthly features like WOTC does. These could be like a monthly creature / NPC, location, etc. However these sections would be specifically for us to put up our creations, and not just anyone submitting. yes?
Ok so basically right now what I need help with is assigning the different areas to a Circle member. Also if you think there should be any other areas and/or that some should be combined, let me know. Perhaps we could have the messageboard be a seperate entity (not under the Circle names), that way Otto could have the Greyhawk Humor section!
Also we need to figure out what types of forums we want on the messageboard and such, and if we want to set up a spot for various online GH games.
As you all can see I am serious about doing this, because I really want Greyhawk to live and get out there to people. I'm looking into getting banners and such on sites to advertise, and would ask that when the site goes up you all put a tag to it in your signatures so other people on this board would see it. Anyhow I need all the help I can get right now, so all comments and thoughts are welcome. Also if you can try to start getting some submissions ready to start off the webpage so it won't be completely empty when it goes up. I'll be setting up an email account soon to begin accepting submissions.
Also I'm thinking of starting a Yahoo! Group for the site to helpget it out there and get people to start doing submissions.
All help and ideas/comments are thanked for in advance lol
Wasn't it eventually agreed that we're better off pooling our efforts to help the current number one GH fansite, Canonfire?
I mean, from the skim through of this thread, you're all basically just repeating what CF has either done or is doing or could possibly do. Why not just focus your efforts on making CF better?
For those who don't know what Canonfire is... err... where have you been? Pluto?
It's run by Gary Holian and his lackeys, namely the ubiquitous and forever unappreciated chatdemon who will probably kick me in the teeth for mentioning him at all, let alone mentioning him as a Holian lackey :D
If you don't know who Holian is... cripes, are you *really* a fan of GH or just a posuer? He and Erik Mona, you know, the guy who edits Polyhedron and the Living Greyhawk Journal, and a couple of others wrote the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
Canonfire is an offshoot of GREYTalk which is a listserv that has been operating for... I'm not sure, ten years? Five years? It's old anyway and it was an offshoot of the AOL folder group. Now, if you don't know who they are, you've really got some research to do, 'cause they're like THE GH fanclub... or at least, they were. Council Greyhawk anyone?
My point is, is that Greyhawk fandom on the net is well established so why go reinventing the wheel? Instead, put your creative juices into helping make CF the best bloody fan site in the world (it admittedly has a long way to go, especially since after the 'upgrade', nothing seems to work).
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/
1) Yes, we would do one.
2) We would make a new thread to prevent the old thread from going off topic.
My main purpose for suggesting starting a new site was so that we could experiment with the different types of things the fans wanted to see. What type of articles were well recieved. Fluff or no fluff, etc. on a variety of criteria. By having a site up dedicated to the resurrection of greyhawk as a commercial entity.
Active Forums , advertising, and articles, while greyhawk exclusive, would be popular with non-greyhawk players.
Instead of a semi-annual set of articles, we would have a monthly article, or weekly if we have enough willing contributers, that would keep people coming back. A regularly updated (frequently updated) site with a variety of articles and activites to participate in. Ex: We could playtest articles in online campaigns. Or even run our own "Living Campaign".
You have obviously never run a fansite before and nor have you attempted to put together fan based materials. But hey, I wish you luck.
When it fails, and it will, I suggest putting those creative juices to some actual constructive use by contributing to the betterment of Canonfire. Whether that be in contributing an article yourself or contributing to the forums or the listserv in a positive and constructive manner, or attempting to sway the editors towards doing something new on or with the site.
But hey, like I said, I wish you luck even though I believe doing something like this will only further fractionalize Greyhawk fandom which is ultimately the core, fundamental thing that the fanbase does NOT need, and that Greyhawk fandom as an entity would prosper much more if we were more unified and helpful towards one another instead of deconstructive and egocentric, which is ultimately what creating another site does and is about, I really do wish you the best of luck in this enterprise.
Originally posted by CryptoNova
I've been to Canonfire, and I personally believe that it does not fit the criteria we are attempting.
Lets look at some of those criteria:
Regulars- Weekly/Monthly features similar to those on the D&D website. Monster Mayhem, Spellbook, etc.
Canonfire already has similar features: Adventures & Modules, Artifacts & Relics, Beyond the Flanaess, and so on.
Active Forums- Have a set of boards which people actually want to post in regularly. Hold message board campaigns to playtest new materials and ideas.
Canonfire already has those, as well. Ever heard of GreyTalk? As for message board games, I know of at least one that you can find, linked from Canonfire's Web Link page.
Advertisement- Almost to the extreme. Get it up everywhere. If they play D&D, they should know about Greyhawk. If they know about Greyhawk, they should know about the site.
Canonfire already has a reputation. If they know about Greyhawk, they should know about Canonfire.
Campaigns- Create a new "Living" League for the website. Use results to create new storyline ideas and adventure hooks.
A noble concept, to be sure. I'm not sure I'd use the term "Living", though; it reeks of RPGA. Granted, The Living Seas has a nice ring to it; too bad Disney already nabbed it.
Crunchiness- Goes back to regulars. More crunchy bits to actually use in a campaign. We have the history extremely well covered online. Concentrate on items, feats, PrCs, spells, etc. that people will use and that are Greyhawk specific.
Canonfire is synonymous with crunchiness. There are articles, there, that anyone would find useful.
What criteria are you searching for, that Canonfire does not already excel at? I would reiterate what Delglath previously stated; "...Greyhawk fandom on the net is well established so why go reinventing the wheel? Instead, put your creative juices into helping make CF the best bloody fan site in the world..."
Instead, put your creative juices into helping make CF the best bloody fan site in the world..."
Err . . . okay. Easier than starting it fresh again. My only real complain with Cannonfire is that its not very user friendly, but hey, can't have it all can you ;)
It appears to me that you did not read the above posts very closely. Infact you actually said you just skimmed them. Had you actually read them you would understand better what we (or I, as it seems to appear) are wanting to achieve. To put it quite plainly, Canonfire blows. The layout makes it less than user friendly, and from what I have found most of the information isn't useful to me. The majority of it just seems to be quotes from older modules and dissecting them. The point of the website we want to make is not to go back to the older modules and study them and explain the "true events" of them to everyone. We want new stuff, not just rehashes of the older stuff. Quite frankly if I want the older stuff I'll just go to svgames.com and get it.
The purpose of the website mentioned in this post is to give a place for the fans to submit their materials that they have made. New spells, feats, monsters, NPCs, perhaps even some modernized stuff from older modules. However what we are not looking for is a bunch of articles about modules from 10-20 years ago. If you had really read everything you would know that, as well as that what we are wanting to do is perserve Greyhawk through the fans. Since obviously WOTC/RPGA/Whoever isn't doing it, we want the fans to be able to keep it alive. Canonfire to me just isn't doing that.
Canonfire does not fit the things mentioned above. However, I could understand how that could be misunderstood, because we are still in the planning pages. This isn't an attempt to overthrow Canonfire, it isn't a popularity contest either. It isn't about "splitting" the fanbased, as you mentioned, it is about strengthening it. Hell, maybe something could be worked out with Canonfire for a sharing of submissions. Canonfire to me is more for articles about the history of Greyhawk, from the majority of what I have seen. What we are wanting to do is look to the future of Greyhawk.
Delglath, you can naysay and such all you wish, however saying that something will fail before it is even done only shows ignorance on your part. Clearly you cannot see or understand that all we are trying to do is strengthen Greyhawk and get it out there to more people. We want to make it more fan-personal, and Canonfire doesn't do that IMO.
And since you seem to have a problem understanding what is posted here, I'll be happy to make it clear cut and all for you.
Yes I said your comments are ignorant, and yes you can consider that a Flame if you wish.
Anyhow, let's get back on topic now ok?...
however I do see a reason for this new website to exist.
I think that it would be in the best intrest of both groups to work together, the new website should include links to cannonfire and vice versa.
I will agree that Canonfire is well estblished. I have been bouncing off that website for a long time. I always considered it a great resource for campaign ideas and credible background information. When the search engine stops crawling when I check for Greyhawk, it usually spits up CF in the top 10.
Along with that construction company.....I'm sure they get more hits from gamers than they do clients
But I digress..
Whenever I go to CF, I get the feeling that I shouldn't be there. The present Gurus with all their compiled knowledge and zealous dedication leaves me feeling like I shouldn't try contributing with my meager by comparison knowledge. If I did it would be sneered at and cast out, as not canon enough for CF...funny, considering the idea was to break away from the restrictions of "strictly canon" and start providing ideas to further the setting through the fan base... I'm not saying that that's the way it is. I am supremely confident that all the guys at CF are pretty cool, and I mean no disrespect...they've done a bang-up job getting all that info together and organized! I enjoy the site for my afore-mentioned reasons, but If I, a veteran Greyhawk gamer for over 12 years feels that way, how do these guys feel. They're new to it all, and trying to find a way to express thier creativity.....Bless thier souls they've chosen Greyhawk to be thier basis!!!
It's exactly what I've stated before. The future of Greyhawk and for that matter D&D lies in the hands, and imaginations of the newer younger gamers. If they don't feel like Greyhawk is a tool they can use they'll turn back to the Forgotten Realms! AND GREYHAWK WILL DIE......finally. If WoTC cannot sell the game to new or prospective new gamers, then they will stop selling it. No new customers is bad for business. Returning customers tend to by less.....the certainly don't need the core materials again.....new gamers do.
Don't be obtuse with these guys. Rather that shut them down, encourage or even help them. I don't see it as splitting the fan base....I see one more Greyhawk site on the web....so that eventually I wont see that construction company in the top 10 hits! The more Greyhawk sites that go up and are maintained and well done...the more gamers are going to start encountering the name. They'll star getting curious. They'll start looking to WoTC for more "official" material as well. Bottom line Money talks and Bull S**t walks...... WoTC will revive Greyhawk when it looks like it holds more interest than FR. The best way to do this is to introduce it to as many prospective fans as possible! The WWW can be a wonderful tool for this. Flood WoTC with Greyhawk response!!!!
Techno.... Hook me up dude. How can I help?
BTW, I'm not fussing at anyone in particular. I just want my Greyhawk BACK!
Go back and read some of the article categories at Canonfire! It very much does support articles written in the "present" or "future" of Greyhawk. It is just that few people have written such. Why would you expect people to suddenly writing that kind of article just because you create a new website?
Gnarley_Woodsman:
I won't deny that Canonfire! is a sinkhole of in-jokes, but that still does not prevent anyone from contributing. It just means you won't understand a few obscure references. As for the "canon" nature of the material, I can't imagine how anyone can get that idea. My few articles are insanely heretical, and nobody has ever suggested they weren't welcome. Indeed, some material in them has been used as a springboard by other contributors, just as some of it is based on material by other contributors.
Canonfire! is extremely receptive to heresy. What it isn't receptive to is poseurs and snobs. If you want to change something established in canon, then do so openly and proudly, don't try pretending it's right just because you say so.
For both of you:
None of this is about trying to crush "competition" or anything similar. It is about how some of us feel you are misrepresenting Canonfire! Everyone is welcome to contribute, and everything is welcome that doesn't violate the group rules. (Which is to say, no Elminster articles need apply. But if you don't know that, you have much more serious issues.
)Perhaps I shouldn't have outright said CF blows like I did. I agree with Gnarley though, to me CF makes me feel like I don't belong there, for largely the same reason as he mentioned. So I'll recant my statement and instead say that Canonfire is IMHO not rookie/newcomer to GH friendly. I think we can all agree on that. That of course is not to say that CF is not a good or credible site, as I have no doubt that it is. The former statement was just in angered just-woke-up response to Delglath, whom I can't help but find obnoxious.
Anyhow, I am working on a new GH site, one that will be more open feeling to fans to submit than CF. It isn't about competition of course, and I'd love to work with CF, possibly swapping submissions and such, andmaybe even having some of the Gurus write for my site. I will put a link on the main page to CF though, because really the purpose of my site is to get GH out there to the younger gamers (myself included lol). So there is no problem with linking to CF and hopefully them linking to me and all. Like I said above though, I just want a place where people can submit, and it will be very much different than what CF has to offer currently. We are just trying to keep GH alive and kickin', and to get it in touch with the younger gamers, and quite frankly I see no problem with having a new site more aimed at that do it than an older and more established site.
Remember: "If you build it, they will come," so we are building it again.
Gnarley:
Really what I need people to do is just start working on submission so the site isn't a barren wasteland when it goes up lol. Some things we are going to focus on is:
GH Monsters
Feats
GH Spells
GH-specific PrCs
GH locations (outside of the Flanaess, or even towns inside)
GH NPCs
GH power groups (new or more detailed older ones)
Maps (would be great if people made some of these, saw some awesome ones on CF)
Modules & Campaigns
Fan Changes to the world (like results of a campaign you ran and how it affected the Flanaess. Other fans could use these, thus creating a sort of "Living" feel.)
And of course any ideas you have for sections on the forum we will have,and if you want to help moderate you could do that as well.
As I said. I am supremely confident that CF is not run like that. What I did say is that it's overwhelming for the new or even the established Greyhawker....
You said it yourself.....Poseurs....defining that word...One who affects a particular attribute, attitude, or identity to impress or influence others.
These guys don't have the background we do. They don't have 10 or 20 years of gaming in this Setting to back them up. So it would be nigh impossible to impress the "Gods that be" with thier minor story contribution......
As Deglath said earlier....."Haven't we had this discussion?" Well these guys may be a little intimidated at having to break in on the old schoolers just to have them say....."Yeah, well we explored those possibilities 3 years ago kid....heres the article nice try"
Do you honestly believe that Greyhawk will get any more popular with this new generation if they have to put as much study time into it as they do for thier High School or College finals! That's exactly what researching CF for all the possible relevant tid-bits equate to.
So as was trying to infer with my second post........Don't let there be "Compitition". Let them develop thier site, and possibly coordinate.
Young Minds Fresh Ideas!
Just post an email address I can send stuff to. I'll start tossing stuff your way.
Who said anyone needs to have a background in anything?
That is the essential point, and it will affect any project, no matter how it is organized. It is something that is always in the eye of the beholder, and not anything you will ever be free of unless you free yourself. I am well aware that doesn't always seem obvious to people, but it is the very simple truth.
I set myself as a prime example. I have my view of Greyhawk, and I don't care what anyone else thinks. And as those who have heard some of my tirades in the GreyTalk chat, I don't care who I'm telling off. I don't care what "credentials" you have, if I don't agree, I don't agree.
Some people can't do that, and constantly seek approval for what they are doing in regards to Greyhawk. I don't understand why, but they do. And if they won't accept "If that's what you like, go for it." for an answer, what can you do?
Just write it and submit it. Provided it's Greyhawk and literate, it will be treated the same as anything written by anyone else.
Actually, given how some of us treat Gary Holian and the other people who do all the work at Canonfire!, there's a good chance it will be treated better.
We see eye to eye when it comes to the "status quo". I rub against the grain all to often myself. Regulations be Damned! But, you and I are not like other people. Again as far as CF is concerned, I hope that I have not given the wrong impression. As I said in the first post, that site deserves all the credit I can give it. It's kept it all going this long without a net. I hope it continues for as long as possible.
No doubt that these guys....once they're comfotable....will be happy to support canonfire....Techno already posted that he'd put a link on his newbie site.
Think of it that way though....call it the "Introduction to Greyhawk" What was that title....Greyhawk: Into the Flaness... It's perfect. Half the newbies out there don't know what a Flaness is, or that it was named after the Flan, or who they were.
You have to admit that the official material of late has been err...."light". I would say it's the cliff notes version of Greyhawk. When they go to the web they do little search and they get a million little spoonfed FR sites and a couple of Greyhawk sites....and then theres Canonfire..it may have plenty of fan material.....of that I already knew
as I said I've been going there for years. The problem is that it is presented like an encyclopedia. I find it immensly useful. I love all the perspectives, but if I were 14 years old trying to hop into the game and run this setting for my friends.....it'd be a lot easier to buy the FRCS....than to try to understand Greyhawk by visiting CF.A "Newbie" site with a link to to the god of all Greyhawk sites just makes it easier to get into.
Again, I say it can't hurt to have more quality Greyhawk sites out there. The more there are, the more new players will be attracted to it. In the end WoTC will have to take notice. Then we all get to hammer them about what we want out of our setting.
I am pretty new to the Greyhawk online community: I only joined Greytalk and Greyhawk-l back in early 2000 or so, and I didn't start to build my GH web site until the spring of 2001 (while living in CA for six months while my then-fiancee was still in KS). So, new folks can, do, and should join in on the GH online community fun.
That said, though, I'm one of the site admins for Canonfire!, and a contributing editor for the Oerth Journal, and I have my own Greyhawk web site too. I've also co-authored two articles for the Living Greyhawk Journal, and have been a GH goober for a long time. So, you can still be a newbie and contribute to the GH fan community.
My main point in posting here is to say that I've forwarded a link to this discussion to the CF! admin team, because I'm concerned about the perception/image that CF! isn't open to newbies. Regardless of whether that's accurate or not (in your opinion, my opinion, or Delgath's opinion) that perception is something that I consider a problem. A problem to be solved :D
I'm also not interested in derailing this discussion about the new web site too much. So, if folks would like me to open a new thread to discuss how CF! isn't serving GH newbies, I'll happily do so. It just seems to flow naturally from the given discussion, though, so I'm posting here for now.
I'm with CanonFire as an Admin, the OJ as a contributor and editor, and just a general Greyhawk Geek (my licence plate is Oerth).
But if you wanted something else, I do own the domain GreyhawkOnline.com. Right now it just points to CanonFire!.com becasue I don't know what I want to do with it. I was planning on having GHO be a location for an up-to-date links page for all Greyhawk Content. But that's too much work with CanonFire! and ThePale.org. Grodog may do something with GreyhawkOnline.com - but then maybe he won't.
If you have a serious plan in place and will be dedicated to your site in managing it's resources I'd be happy to help with either the domain name or in some hosting way.
But what you have here, is a group of people that are both Admins for CanonFire! (becasue they've been around, know their stuff, and are dedicated to Greyhawk) and knowledgeable about keeping things constant in terms of fan stuff. CanonFire! gets a burst of submissions all at once. We'll get three of four in a day or so. We'll post them, but then after a few weeks we'll have almost nothing. It's the way it is.
But again, if you want to start a new Greyhawk Fandom website, please do so. If it supports newbie's better than what CanonFire! can or does, then all the better - isn't our overall goal to better Greyhawk. There are many ways in which Greyhawk can be better. I believe that Greyhawk would be best suited if WotC would let it die. Yes. Back to the Dark Days of no printed Greyhawk Material. That's how Erik Mona and Gary Holian hooked up, founded the Oerth Journal, GreyTalk, GreyChat, The Thursday Group, later CanonFire!. That's how they later became the writers of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
If Greyhawk dies by WotC's hand, it can be better servered by writers here on the Internet. On and by CanonFire! and even a new Greyhawk dedicated website.
No matter what the reason or the goal - if Greyhawk is helped in any way, then by all means attempt it. Some of us "old timers" will help in many ways, offering advice, support and even articile submissions.
The betterment of Greyhawk.
I agree that the antimology of CF is illustrious. I remeber the AOL folder days. That was a long time ago. Gosh, I was just a kid back then.....The Woodsman feels old.....
But letting it die....aw c'mon I want new shiny maps!
I believe that CF is to date the best source for info on Greyhawk, but it's overwhelming to the newbie players. It's wonderful that they have discovered Greyhawk, but awful that there has been so little official support. So the turn to they turn to the web. Grodog's site has a lot of quality info., and many links to other sources. Canonfire is the essential website for background info, and since the new roll out, its a lot better organized. This is terrific.
The problem is that the information is diverse, and there are dozens of topics. It's not a place to go to get a remedial course on Greyhawk. The site is not designed to hold your hand, and walk you through the "Essentials" of Greyhawk. The thing that these newbies need is a cross between the 2nd edition players guide and the Greyhawk Gazateer. A primer if you will. Then once they've gotten up to speed with the basics. The can easily turn to CF.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
...to me CF makes me feel like I don't belong there, for largely the same reason as he mentioned. So I'll recant my statement and instead say that Canonfire is IMHO not rookie/newcomer to GH friendly.
Fair enough, I'll grant you that.
...the purpose of my site is to get GH out there to the younger gamers...
What do younger gamers want that differs from older gamers; an established rich background, presented in a funky fresh wrapper? ;) How does Canonfire seem standoffish, to you?
Originally posted by Samwise
I have my view of Greyhawk, and I don't care what anyone else thinks.
What he said!
As I said I would be uploading my html into a free site like angelfire.com for testing. Just wanna see if my opening scripting works and how long it takes to load and all. Here is the link, this is what I have so far, it is ONLY the entrance to the site, nothing else is up yet.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/greyhawkadventures
There should be a MouseOver in there so let me know if that works for you...
Let me know what you all think....
Wow, I think you've done a wonderful job on that cover entrance. I hate pop-ups and doesn't AngelFire have pop-ups? I use Google 2.0 Pop-up blocker (which works).
So what is the concept behind the cool cover entrance? A guide for Newbies. Ok, so you cover the basic Human races and a general breakdown of what the lands are like. That's exactly what the D&D Gazetteer does. The LGG goes into depth much like what CanonFire! does.
If CanonFire! has too many sections - what can we do to fix that? There are so many areas in which to devlop as a fan of the world that not everything fits neatly into a category as it is.
I also understand that as a newbie, maybe heading into a place that is headed by the Holian makes it harder to "get involved." But after a short time somewhere else, that newbie will now be a regular and be looking elsewhere for content.
Again, the entrance looks good. But then so does http://www.canonfire.com!
its not going to just be a place for newbies to get a greyhawk "primer," thats what the Living Gaz. is for lol. Its basically like Canonfire, only a little more user friendly looking. There will be more newbie information there though, articles about the races and such, although not to the detail or level that the ones ive seen on canonfire go to. Basically its a place for the fans to post things (mentioned above somewhere, i dont wanna type them all again), similar to CF, but not quite.
Overall Im just trying to expand GH on the web and get more people into it.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Err . . . okay. Easier than starting it fresh again. My only real complain with Cannonfire is that its not very user friendly, but hey, can't have it all can you ;)
See, now, I'd agree that Canonfire is awkward and cumbersome. I'd also agree that the site is busted. Recently there was an upgrade done to the content management software (PHPNUKE, I believe) which has made the site look a little prettier, and certain areas more easy to navigate (I especially like the new layout of the archives, check them out!) but at the same time, has broken half the site. Half the functions of the damn thing don't work anymore. But hey, it'll get fixed in due time.
And instead of going out and splintering Greyhawk fandom (ok, ok... I did *try*, but that's part of why I'm so adament now that it shouldn't be done), I ***** and whinge at Gary to fix stuff and provide suggestions and help with CF projects and ideas to improve the site.
Granted, I'm rarely listened to... always heard, but rarely listened to, and when my ideas HAVE been taken up, Gary usually took credit for thinking of them himself, but hey, he pays for the site and has done for the last two or three years so at the end of the day, I've got no (read: few) complaints.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
It appears to me that you did not read the above posts very closely.
And it appears to me, that you have not gone beyond the first page of the CF website. By all that you just said, you've never explored it beyond glancing at the first page and saying, "This sucks, I can do better!", like some retarded little posuer punk who should sit down, shut-up, and listen to his betters.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
The layout makes it less than user friendly...
Then petition Gary and the editors to make it better with suggestions on how to do so. No garauntees you'll be listened to but at least you'll be contributing instead of being an whiny outsider.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
...and from what I have found most of the information isn't useful to me.
Dear God, if you can't find something useful at CF, then either you haven't searched the archives or you have your brain switched off. Quite frankly, I'm betting in your case both have occured.
There are... what? I think over three hundred articles on CF? That's not to mention all the downloads and maps and stuff.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
The majority of it just seems to be quotes from older modules and dissecting them. The point of the website we want to make is not to go back to the older modules and study them and explain the "true events" of them to everyone.
What the? Like I said, you've obviously not delved very deep into the article archives. There are all sorts of different articles in there that aren't even remotely like what you're saying. In fact... I would say the majority is of articles detailing minor aspects of the campaign world that have NOT been touched on elsewhere.
I will admit that there are articles that delve into the obscurities of Greyhawk lore, but then... that's part of the attraction of the setting, the fact that there are all these little obscurities to figure out. There are just under a hundred published modules and sourcebooks, plus another hundred articles published in Dragon and Polyhedron and Dungeon, that are Greyhawk specific. There are a LOT of things to delve into further.
Part of why Greyhawk is fun is that there are so many things that one can develop to make the setting their own. It's like... instead of having a blank canvass, you're given a basic outline and some tools and a bit of colour here and there and then it's up to you to bring the whole thing to life.
Canonfire was born, as I understand it, as a place for DM's of Greyhawk to come together and share THEIR interpretations of these gaps and obscurities.
And... umm... just what do you think the articles on your website would be about, hmm? Are you going to be filling in any gaps? Gee, I wonder...
Originally posted by technoelement2020
We want new stuff, not just rehashes of the older stuff. Quite frankly if I want the older stuff I'll just go to svgames.com and get it.
See, now, again, you can't have delved very deep into CF if you can say that. I've contributed five articles (I'm currently waiting on my fifth to be put up) to CF and ALL of them have been 3rd ed. crunchy bits (a PRC, two templates and a core class) except for this last one which is a short story that is going to be a part of a series of articles I'm doing on MY interpretation of what has happened in Rinloru and Winetha over the last seven+ years. It also has three new items for use in 3rd ed. games.
I also know that there are 3rd ed. gods domains, 3rd ed. spells and 3rd ed. items as well as 2nd ed (easily converted) adventure modules (one of which Gary Gygax helped with!) and culture articles (the ones on wines are my favourite), as well as the most recent article which is all about how to enhance the player's roleplaying of a Pelorian cleric with phrases appropriate to the faith (something I think is great and will be handing over to any player of a Pelorian cleric in my game).
It's all NEW stuff. How you can say it's old stuff is beyond my comprehension.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
The purpose of the website mentioned in this post is to give a place for the fans to submit their materials that they have made. New spells, feats, monsters, NPCs, perhaps even some modernized stuff from older modules.
Err... all of that stuff is in the three hundred plus articles on CF. You should try going there some time and actually looking beyond the first page...
...hey, here's an even better thought, how about you CONTRIBUTE some articles based on the above? Nobody is stopping you from doing it... in fact... I'm ENCOURAGING you to do so. I would LOVE to see your work up there. In fact, I CHALLENGE you to do something for CF, if for nothing else than to prove to yourself you can finish an article, since if you get this site up, you're going to have to put yer writing 'skills' on the line and contribute a LOT. Think of it as a test run...
Originally posted by technoelement2020
However what we are not looking for is a bunch of articles about modules from 10-20 years ago.
Err... what do you think Greyhawk is? One sourcebook? Greyhawk is made up of those modules and articles. That's what Greyhawk IS. If you're not writing about those articles and modules, then... err... you're not writing about Greyhawk...
Originally posted by technoelement2020
If you had really read everything you would know that, as well as that what we are wanting to do is perserve Greyhawk through the fans.
Have you noticed the catchphrase at the top of the blue theme (admittedly, themes have been changing lots lately due to the 'upgrade'). It says, and I quote, "Preserving the World of Greyhawk, One Article At a Time."
Originally posted by technoelement2020
Since obviously WOTC/RPGA/Whoever isn't doing it, we want the fans to be able to keep it alive. Canonfire to me just isn't doing that.
Well pal, if 300+ articles, the support of Dungeon and Polyhedron (through Erik Mona), the support of one of the premiere writers of contemporary Greyhawk material (don't get a big head Gary, they're just words, I know they're big words, but still...), 1,500 members, EN World news spots telling of new articles (sometimes... there's currently a hot debate about that right now) and the contribution of articles and support by members who were responsible for bringing Greyhawk back from the brink of utter oblivion (ie. Council Greyhawk, and all the folks who pioneered through the wastelands of WotC to bring you the LGG), isn't 'preserving Greyhawk through the fans', then by god man, you must truly be capable of miraculous events, because to do more than that will take a ******* miracle.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
Canonfire does not fit the things mentioned above.
Yes, actually, it does. But regardless, even if it didn't, my suggestion to you is to help improve CF by contributing your input, time and effort. Nag Gary and things (eventually) do happen. He'll probably want to shoot me for telling people to nag him to do stuff, but... heh, it's not like stuff doesn't need to be done
Originally posted by technoelement2020
It isn't about "splitting" the fanbased, as you mentioned, it is about strengthening it.
You have an odd view of strength.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
Delglath, you can naysay and such all you wish, however saying that something will fail before it is even done only shows ignorance on your part.
ROFL! I said it will fail, and it will, because I know what makes a fansite succeed and you don't have what it takes. That's not meant to be offensive, it's simply an evaluation of your situation and skills.
None of you seem to realize what it takes to make a fan site successful. Eric Noah had it. Gary Holian has it. You, however, and the others here, do not.
I know this because I've been there and done that. I've watched and taken notes over the years in an effort to do it myself. And after all that watching and note taking, I happen to have learnt a thing or two about what it takes to be successful.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
Clearly you cannot see or understand that all we are trying to do is strengthen Greyhawk and get it out there to more people. We want to make it more fan-personal, and Canonfire doesn't do that IMO.
No, it's you who doesn't see that there already exists a place perfectly suited to what you've expressed you want. You're just arrogant and think you can do better. You can't, trust me on this.
Originally posted by technoelement2020
Yes I said your comments are ignorant, and yes you can consider that a Flame if you wish.
Lol, whatever. Email me when your fansite is successful...
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
Whenever I go to CF, I get the feeling that I shouldn't be there. The present Gurus with all their compiled knowledge and zealous dedication leaves me feeling like I shouldn't try contributing with my meager by comparison knowledge.
I would refute that if it weren't for the fact that I felt the same why myself a couple of years ago. But... err... I got over it. It's nothing but paranoia. Well, ok... the grognards will think stuff sucks if it isn't pure Greyhawk but you gotta understand that Greyhawk fans are a VERY diverse bunch. It's like Holian said the other day, in the chat, get six Greyhawk fans together and you'll have twelve opinions
So for every GH'er that sneers, there are ten who won't and five who'll think your stuff is cool. Don't listen to the vocal minority and just contribute. Whether it's 'pure' GH or not, doesn't particularly matter. What matters more is that it's YOUR take on whatever aspect of Greyhawk you're interested in. You'd be amazed at how much people are interested in other peoples ideas... CF is about sharing those ideas. I think you'll be surprised at just how receptive CF can be, after all, the very NAME of Canonfire, is a take on the whole notion of canon.
If it helps any, the ratings on articles have been taken away because some morons were rating every article a 1.
Originally posted by TheocratIssak
Again, the entrance looks good. But then so does http://www.canonfire.com!
heck, so does http://www.lobi.com/bpaa/ :D
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
These guys don't have the background we do. They don't have 10 or 20 years of gaming in this Setting to back them up. So it would be nigh impossible to impress the "Gods that be" with thier minor story contribution......
Heh, I only became a fan of GH three years ago... before that, I used FR (only because it was convenient for once off games or just to get a game started period) or my homebrew.
The homebrew required FAR too much work to even be a tenth as fleshed out as GH and FR was TOO fleshed out for my liking and in a way that I didn't like.
I only 'discovered' Greyhawk when I got back into D&D through 3rd ed. The whole, 'Greyhawk is the default world,' thing made me check it out and I eventually got the LGG which was the catalyst for my current obsession with the setting.
So... umm... sorry, but what you're saying is kinda redundant, IMO and based more on perception than actuality.
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
As Deglath said earlier....."Haven't we had this discussion?" Well these guys may be a little intimidated at having to break in on the old schoolers just to have them say....."Yeah, well we explored those possibilities 3 years ago kid....heres the article nice try"
You're right, a lot of the gaps and possibilities HAVE been delved into. But so what? That's ONE person's interpretation of what happened. My favourite area of GH is the (former) Great Kingdom, especially Rinloru and Winetha, and so my articles tend to concentrate on that area. But I know for a fact that there is another contributor to CF on the Great Kingdom who most likely thinks my articles are tripe... I think his articles rock, but that's another story. The point is, just because he contributes articles on GK, doesn't mean I don't, can't or won't. If our views conflict, all the better, that just gives whoever reads them TWO options, or even better, spurs their imaginations to think of their OWN options.
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
Do you honestly believe that Greyhawk will get any more popular with this new generation if they have to put as much study time into it as they do for thier High School or College finals! That's exactly what researching CF for all the possible relevant tid-bits equate to.
Greyhawk IS all those old modules and books. If you're not interested in them, then... well... you're not interested in Greyhawk. You can hardly claim to be a fan of something you know nothing about...
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
Young Minds Fresh Ideas!
Which are welcome at CF.
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
Just post an email address I can send stuff to. I'll start tossing stuff your way.
Aww, now... see... I view that as a loss to the Greyhawk fan community. Oh well, I can only hope you'll repost your stuff on CF when the other site dies. Yes, I'm an ass.
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
But letting it die....aw c'mon I want new shiny maps!
This is why we must all get down on our knees and thank Delleb* for Mr. Anondson :D
Originally posted by TheocratIssak
If you have a serious plan in place and will be dedicated to your site in managing it's resources I'd be happy to help with either the domain name or in some hosting way.
See what I mean about the diversity of GH fans at CF? We can't even agree whether or not we should support a new site, lol.
*Ack! I've lost my LGG! I can't recall if Delleb is the right GH god, oh Nerull, help me!
I can see little reason why you are so against other good Greyhawk sites being put up on the web, other than the following...
1) perhaps you are bitter because your site didn't work out. so sorry that it didn't, but I dunno maybe if you had been a little more dedicated to it and hmm perhaps a bit more personable people would have helped you.
2) perhaps you are stubborn, and stuck on your own ways. this would perhaps explain your tunnelvision on having there be ONLY CANONFIRE!!!
3) perhaps you are just sucking some big Canonfire ****, or maybe one of the people that run it.
4) hey, maybe you are just an *******.
Seems to me like you are all of the above actually. The fact that you are so quick to put someone down and tell them they can't do something well only goes to show that you are childish, ignorant, and insecure. I take great offense to you telling me that I am not skilled enough to do something. I also find it funny that you called me arrogant! Clearly it is you who is arrogant, thinking that only your opinions matter. It's a shame that you aren't able to overcome your own shortcomings and see that the majority of the people on this thread who are trying to do this site project are only trying to better Greyhawk, not compete with your beloved Canonfire. I have even said myself that it would be cool if people submitted to both Canonfire and this site, it isn't about competition. Canonfire is horridly unorganized; I have looked at it many times and have either not been able to find anything remotely like what I was wanting, or came up with a broken link. Honestly there needs to be some serious reworking done there. I believe you called me a whiny outsider, but I think that's quite funny considering it is you who *****es and moans at Canonfire about changing things. You've said yourself they don't really listen. Yes, I have seen the claim under their logo, and that's all fine and good. You really don't see that we are just trying to get Greyhawk out to a more diverse group of people, and hey thats cool too. To each their own I suppose.
If you see no point in there being another Greyhawk site that is fine, but why **** and moan here and make yourself look like an ass. If you don't want to support it, then don't submit, and don't read any of it. I could care less if you do, because quite frankly I don't like your attitude or the way you talk down to people just to make yourself feel better about yourself, and I don't want your help anyhow.
I'm officially going to start buying stocks in the pharmacuitical industry in the hopes that more people will start taking regular, neccessary doses of zanax or prosiac. Get a grip everyone. Pull out the fire extinguishers and put out the flames. Take a breath. Listen to some relaxing and inspirational Yanni 8-tracks while doing some yoga meditations and it will all be over soon.
First, Cannonfire does indeed rock. Flat out. Point blank. It kicks mondo rear. Nobody who gives the website half a chance at all can truly say otherwise.
Second, the thought of a new web resource for Greyhawk also rocks. Flat out. Point blank. It will also (with the right touch) kick mondo rear. Nobody who gives the website half a chance at all will be able to, in the future, say otherwise.
To simply say to someone "Your going to fail." Wow. Thats not just someone being an arse. Thats a complete and total mental nutjob who has serious issues that he or she needs to sit down and think long and hard about. Issues that most likely have nothing to do with gaming, or websites, or Greyhawk at all. Kid, you've got problems. Deal with them. And shut the heck up until you do. That's being more than ignorant, more than rude, and more than stupid.
Second, I love shameless plugs. :D Aeolis, your awesome. Thanks for the laugh. BTW, yes, your site is very nice. Keep up the good work.
Thirdlyish, why the heck is this even being debated? Since when can anyone tell someone what they can and can't do? Sorry, but I thought totalitarianism in the U.S. died with Roosevelt. I fully understand the members from Cannonfire coming out in support of their efforts (especially since it was coming under fire, get it, its a joke, fire, canonfire . . . oh nevermind). Its actually great to see adent defense of what someone works very hard for. But you have to understand something about internet psychology.
Its called the Omnipresent Site theory. After a time, any popular special interest site is bound to grow. However, most of these websites suffer in the long term by becoming overgrown. The internet is a 'quick' resource and is not intended for, nor well received when one has to 'do too much' to get the resources that are needed. When a website becomes overgrown, it looses its base of visitors, slowly at first and then more rapidly. Market trends also influence this as well, but the end result is often inevitable. Several smaller websites with the same focus are far preferable to a single resource, even if such goes entirely against common sense. Its an unfortunate and proven fact. How does this apply to gaming? Basically, more individual websites will, as is proven already in thousands of other special interest areas on the internet, provide more of a net gain in interest from the community. A single definitive resource is actually a bad thing. Multiple resources are a good thing. Hence, as long as every reources acknowledges the other resources, all resources (i.e. webpages) have growth.Lastly, Techno, you need to chill. Relax. Flaming someone who flames you makes you just as much an idiot. Don't be an idiot, I was just starting to like you. Onto your page. The intro looks nice. I'd take of the glass effect of the "Into the Flanaess" to make it more crisp and readable. As it is, its rather tricky on old eyes (well, I'm not that old, but still . . . where'd I put my bi-focals . . .). Otherwise, not bad. You could also try, if you have a scanner and access to the map, imprinting the large world map from Dragon mag annual #1. Toss some greens and browns over the land and blue seas, use a white smear for clouds and viola!, little GH planets on the intro. It would also help to break up the color monotany. Lastly after the other lastly, I'm not buying that you just started learning html today ;) Either that your you've got some help or are snapping pages (not that there's anything wrong with that, I've err, uh, never done it before . . . really . . . promise ;). Anyhow, can't wait to see what's in store. Keep it up.
Delglath and Samwise are not officially connected with canonfire in any way beyond both being contributors of articles. Their views and opinions here should not be considered those of canonfire or its staff.
Having said that...
As a long time greyhawk fan and someone who has busted his butt for the past two or three years trying to keep the site running smoothly and serving the greyhawk community, I must add, I agree with them 100%. Those of you posting criticisms of canonfire here to rally support for your new site, let me ask one question: why have you never made any comments, complaints or suggestions to us, the staff and writers for canonfire? Is there really anything wrong with canonfire, or are you simply trying to go against the grain and start your own thing?
When, and if, you get tired of trying to reinvent the wheel, come back to canonfire, we'll still be there, and we do accept anyone into our community, regardless of their background or knowledge of greyhawk or their adherance to canon.
Rich "chatdemon" Trickey,
Canonfire site staff,
[email]richadmin@canonfire.com[/email]
Don't worry kiddies, Techno took his chill pill lol. All is cool again. Perhaps I should not have flamed back at Delglath and lowered myself down to his abyssmal level, but must admit it felt good lol. Sorry for the lowering though.
Thanks for the support and defense Mach2.5, it's very much appreciated. However it pains me to have to say that, because defense of my ideas is not what I should be having to do here. Incase everyone forgot their bi-focals or suddenly got hit with rays of mind-numbling stupidness, the topic at hand here is trying to organize this website, and posting your ideas on how to make it a good site. This thread isn't called "Should there be a new GH site?", nor is it "We hate Greyhawk newcomers and must be total nazis to them about how everything should be." If you wish to keep bringing up things that would fall under these other thread names, feel free to make them, that way I'll atleast be sure of where I shouldn't go.
Of course, I point no fingers (*cough* Delglath *cough*) at who has been doing this, but let's just knock it off. It grows rather annoying and is taxing on my dedication, as I am only trying to help the Greyhawk community. It pains me to see that those feelings go unappreciated, and leave me to be insulted.
As I have stated many times, although aparrently some people just don't get it, A NEW SITE WOULDN'T BE COMPETITION FOR THE BELOVED CANONFIRE! I have stated many times that I would love to work with Canonfire,and just try to get GH out there to more people. And now, I quote for you....
Basically, more individual websites will, as is proven already in thousands of other special interest areas on the internet, provide more of a net gain in interest from the community. A single definitive resource is actually a bad thing. Multiple resources are a good thing. Hence, as long as every reources acknowledges the other resources, all resources (i.e. webpages) have growth.
As Mach2.5 so greatly put (thanks man, I really couldn't have said it better. I never humoured myself to be the diplomat.), multiple resources are a good thing. Seeing as I want to acknowledge Canonfire as a definitive source of GH information, this IS GROWTH for Greyhawk!
Now, sadly, I must say this:
As an official representative of the Canonfire site, I must point out: Delglath and Samwise are not officially connected with canonfire in any way beyond both being contributors of articles. Their views and opinions here should not be considered those of canonfire or its staff.
Having said that...
As a long time greyhawk fan and someone who has busted his butt for the past two or three years trying to keep the site running smoothly and serving the greyhawk community, I must add, I agree with them 100%.
Wait wait, there is more .... but let's review first kiddies....
As an official representative of the Canonfire site,
I agree with them 100%
Ok, so while Delglath or Samwise may not be the considered the "official view" of the Canonfire staff, clearly your opinion can be. The very fact that you would agree with Delglath brings great distain to me. Apparently from what you are saying here, Canonfire thinks it should be the ONLY source, and apparently anyone else who tries to do anything similar for Greyhawk should fail terribly. Ok.
It is rather unfortunate that you said this, but more so that you stated that you yourself are a representative of Canonfire. I should hope that the rest of Canonfire would be shamed that you show such disrespect to newcomers.
I wanted to work with Canonfire, to work along side you in hopes of keeping the Greyhawk dream alive in the hearts of many, especially the new gamers. However, I have begun to doubt if I wish to associate myself with Canonfire now, seeing as they have a representative whom clearly disapproves of others trying to better Greyhawk outside of Canonfire. Sad indeed.
It brings me little surprise now that so many of us newcomers turn to Forgotten Realms rather than Greyhawk after seeing how some of the Greyhawk community acts. You should be ashamed of yourselves. When Greyhawk fails and becomes a thing of the past along with you then you will have no where else to look for blame than yourselves.
To all who have supported me in this quest to try to better Greyhawk's presence, I thank you, sincerely.
To all who have not supported and who have naysayed this newcomer to Greyhawk, I only say that you should be quite ashamed of yourselves.
I have nothing more to say on that topic, nor will I speak on that topic again. Let us atleast have the manners to keep this thread on topic from now on.
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other posts for you to insult people on.
Those of you posting criticisms of canonfire here to rally support for your new site, let me ask one question: why have you never made any comments, complaints or suggestions to us, the staff and writers for canonfire? Is there really anything wrong with canonfire, or are you simply trying to go against the grain and start your own thing?
This comment is clearly aimed at me, as I am the only one on this thread starting a new site. Yes, I did say I thought Canonfire blows, but then I came back and both apologized for and recanted that remark, instead saying that Canonfire achieves it's own goal, however myself and others do not feel that it fills a certain niche that needs filling. As no site can be all-encompassing, there is nothing wrong with Canonfire in that regard. There are only two problems with Canonfire that I currently have:
1) It isn't very newbie friendly.
2) You are a representative of it.
Other than that hey, everything is great as far as I am concerned.
When, and if, you get tired of trying to reinvent the wheel, come back to canonfire, we'll still be there,
I see this as disrespectful to me. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, or perhaps I am. However who died and made Canonfire "the wheel." Oh and please don't try to give me this whole 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and 2/6 people support Canonfire. My response is, "Whoopie Do." First off, Canonfire is not "the wheel," "the wheel" is Greyhawk itself. Secondly, don't disrespect me again please, as it only serves to make you AND the site you represent look bad to people like myself.
I never left Canonfire, and my intent was to be with Canonfire as well as my own project, in an attempt to better Greyhawk. It pains me to see that some people are either to arrogant and/or stubborn to see that.
We can all agree that Greyhawk needs a bigger younger gamer fan-base. Why is it then that you make us feel insignificant and drive us off?
Oh, and Mach2.5, sorry for this post and the one above it, but I need to get these things off my chest and infront of the people in this Greyhawk community. Hopefully some sentiments will be shown, and perhaps some attitudes changed.
Ok, I think this is my last chill pill!
To put it quite plainly, Canonfire blows.
I wanted to work with Canonfire, to work along side you in hopes of keeping the Greyhawk dream alive in the hearts of many, especially the new gamers.
So, which is it?
If you want to create a new fansite, go for it, I don't mind.
If you want to contribute to canonfire, you are more than welcome.
If you believe that canonfire scares off newcomers, tell us about it, we're open to change.
If, otoh, all you want to do is badmouth the status quo to promote your new project, no thanks. We've worked long and hard to give you, the greyhawk fans, a site worth visiting and contributing to. As Delglath pointed out, Gary Holian has been doing this, out of his own time and money, for 10 years. Grodog and I, among others, have worked hard for the last 3 years to make the site come alive. Issak has generously offered a lot of valuable resources to help overcome the fact that we were straining our hosting resources. We, well, I for one, I won't put words in the mouths of others, do not appreciate being slammed to make your project look good.
You opened yourself up by badmouthing our site, do not misunderstand my reaction to you as being representative of the attitude of the canonfire staff towards newcomers. We are, always have been, and always will be, open to any fan of the setting.
Rich 'chatdemon' Trickey,
Canonfire site staff,
[email]richadmin@canonfire.com[/email]
I did infact start learning HTML today, or rather, yesterday. I went and picked up a book (Sams Teach Yourself HTML and XHTML in 24 Hours, 6th Edition) around 8 last night, and sat down and poured through it until around 5 am. When I woke up today, around 2 pm., I started doing some coding to see if I remembered what I had read and practiced the night before. Then I made the graphics, and coded that in. I did actually do it myself, and didn't steal the coding from anywhere. It's all out of my head, with some reference to the book if I wasn't getting something just right. I had some experience with HTML in the past (though nothing more advanced than so that kind of helped. I've also done lots of (NERD ALERT! NERD ALERT!) QBasic programming doing text games and such, so that helped as well. But yes, I am infact a loser, and have sat down for countless hours at a time to advance as quickly in HTML as I have. Still much to learn though. Anyhow yes, I did do it all myself and wasn't fibbing
So do you, um, still like me? lol
The thread is entitled "Our Greyhawk Fansite..."
It is NOT entitled, "MY Greyhawk Fansite..."
The thread uses OUR instead of my because it was created because there was a good deal of talk concerning having a more fan-oriented website, and I tried to organize the people that talked about it here.
I'm beginning to feel like maybe I should change it to "My Greyhawk Fansite...", seeing as there has been such negative response from the community.
Ok and now I am going to quote myself, once and for all showing to you all that I did recant my statement about Canonfire, and am not just trying to use a post to badmouth an established site to promote my own project. I must say however, I am insulted to be accused of such a thing.
Here it is.....
Perhaps I shouldn't have outright said CF blows like I did. I agree with Gnarley though, to me CF makes me feel like I don't belong there, for largely the same reason as he mentioned. So I'll recant my statement and instead say that Canonfire is IMHO not rookie/newcomer to GH friendly. I think we can all agree on that. That of course is not to say that CF is not a good or credible site, as I have no doubt that it is. The former statement was just in angered just-woke-up response to Delglath, whom I can't help but find obnoxious.
Anyhow, I am working on a new GH site, one that will be more open feeling to fans to submit than CF. It isn't about competition of course, and I'd love to work with CF, possibly swapping submissions and such, andmaybe even having some of the Gurus write for my site. I will put a link on the main page to CF though, because really the purpose of my site is to get GH out there to the younger gamers (myself included lol). So there is no problem with linking to CF and hopefully them linking to me and all. Like I said above though, I just want a place where people can submit, and it will be very much different than what CF has to offer currently. We are just trying to keep GH alive and kickin', and to get it in touch with the younger gamers, and quite frankly I see no problem with having a new site more aimed at that do it than an older and more established site.
Remember: "If you build it, they will come," so we are building it again.
Yes, we are building it again, in hopes that newcomers will find there way into the Greyhawk community on a whole, and that they will be welcomed. It is sad of course that I have not been given that welcoming by many.
So, continue to harp on me saying I thought Canonfire blows, but as you can see I took that statement back and better clarified my intent.
Don't misinterpret me or my intentions again, nor try to tell me I brought the disrespect on myself by saying what I did. I was man enough to apologize for and take back what I said after I realized it wasn't the right way to say it. I grow weary of such disrespect as I have recently seen from the Greyhawk community. Tread carefully, you risk losing yet another younger gamer from your precious community.
Chatdemon, I'm sure you were incredibly upset at Techno's blatant bashing of Canonfire. It was wrong. It was also recanted in a mature fashion and redirected constructivly. Just as its not right to flame, its also not right for someone to ignore a sincere apology and dig the whole mess back up. I know what its like to have your hard work get ripped to shreds by someone. It hurts and gets you steamed to no end and rightly so. But take the more mature road here and be more objective.
About Canonfire and older, more established websites and the 'appearence' of GH community segregation (which is what several people are referring to, lets not beat around the bush about it), I think the fact that no one from the older community coming out to say 'Hey, that's great! If you want help fellow Oeridian, let me know!" backs up such a view in a most profound way. There were several people interested in the new website venture, myself included. To base all of your opinions on Tencho and gear your distaste for the idea of expanding GH is a sure sign of segregation to me. So some sites fail. It happens. Canonfire wasn't a sure thing when it started either. But look! Its still around (and thankfully so, I'd miss ya'll much). The new project may fail too. Its far more likely to fail without a little help from friends to give it a nip, tuck, or shove here and there. The idea that started out as a way to 'help' the GH comunity seems to hve been met with 'WE don't need YOUR help, WE are doing just fine without YOU.' That's not a sign of segregationism, noooo. Can't be. Must have been entirely mistaken.
Come on, be frank. Canonfire has an appeal. It cannot, nor will it ever have a full and total appeal to each and every single person out there with some kind of vested interest in GH. Sorry, but to think otherwise is, well, dumb. You can't please em all. Simple as that. Nor can anyone else. But you have been pleasing many of us for a long, long time. And we respect you for that. Well, I won't speak for anyone else, but I respect you for it. And no one doubts that Canonfire won't still be around for many years to come (maybe you'll put a bi-focal magnifier on your page when we're all old and grey . . . or older and greyer than we already are).
What would happen if we did succeed, eh? Is that the problem. The dread! The problem with any difinitive resource is that there's no such thing. You can pick up a complete guide to nerfing, a difinitive book of nerfing, the dummies guid to nerfing, and the everything you ever wanted to know about nerfing but were afraid to ask and chances are, you'll find something different in all 4. In case some of you at Canonfire (representing or otherwise)hadn't realized, there really are other GH pages out there. Some may not be as old or well established, but they're out there. They didn't reinvent the Canonfirewheel. They made a website. It was probably a blast for them, and probably still is (fun and headahces sometimes go hand in hand as I'm sure you all know ;)). Give it a chance. If it sucks like there's no tomorrow, then by all means, say it sucks. But to bash something before it begins because "I'm an old timer and I've seen it before." is rather childish and any real old timer would know that as well.
But I've done quite a few for that cantankerous, non-newbie friendly site that some of us apparantly love to hate (which is fine by me; vehement attacks are sometimes better advertising copy than flowery praise!).
Hell, I even detailed a whole section of coastliine off the beaten path, so to speak. With some wide-brush nation writeups to go along with 'em. Crunchy, but less filling.
but anyway. Want to build a better greyhawk website? Go right ahead. AFAIC, the more, the merrier (and look, Ma, I'm a CF editor/contributor, too! - but so what?). If techno can put as much verve into his site design as he has put into damning CF with faint praise, then it'll be something to see.
If GH had half the number of fan sites that official setting had, maybe it'd sink in somewhere that the RPGA isn't enough.
And once again, people just don't seem to be getting the point:
1) I suggest the site as an experiment to test the viability of Greyhawk by seeing what is was that was needed, and what was wanted. We would use the site to publish articles and use the feedback to try and come to a middle ground that would appeal to the largest amount of people.
2) Really, you would think there would be less hostility. Is it now a crime to have a fansite? Why is it that you are getting all defensive about having another fansite? All we are trying to do is provide some method for newbies to enter the game.
How would we help newbies: (Back to point 1)
1) Largest appeal- try and attract gamers
2) Primer for the setting
3) Fluff/Non-Fluff articles
4) Freedom
History is a wonderful thing, and experienced roleplayers can handle the vast quantities of information, such as those stored at canonfire. However, as stated before in this thread, it is intimidating to new DMs. One of the great things, in my personal campaign, is the freedom Greyhawk has provided as opposed to FR, etc. The focus should be on ease of use of the setting. If they want to begin fleshing everything out to excruiating detail by reading through all the 1E & 2E stuff, they know where to go.
However, if you read above you'll notice a couple of "old schoolers" offering to help. Grodog has brought the this thread to the attention of "those that be" at CF.
Some of them even say they'll contribute.
Now as far as my wanting shiny new maps......well, I cant aford to have yours printed a Kinikos
Though I do like what you have done.I would again restate that none of what I have said was meant to attack Canonfire. Again, CF is at the top of my list whan it comes to Greyhawk sites.
All that should be taken from this discussion is that the younger generation wants a chance to explore and govern thier own ideas about the setting.
It was a mistake that Techno slammed CF. He apologized. As far as my comments are concerned they are right on from the newbie point of view, but were presented along with my complimennts about the site.
Now the topic of this thread is what do we want in a "Newbie" Greyhawk site?
The topic of Canonfire and its ability to attract the newer gamer should be addressed elsewhere.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57890
forgive me I have no HTML skills
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The idea that started out as a way to 'help' the GH comunity seems to hve been met with 'WE don't need YOUR help, WE are doing just fine without YOU.' That's not a sign of segregationism, noooo. Can't be. Must have been entirely mistaken.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I get accused of not reading things through and yet... what were Theocrat's posts? Vapourware? Is grodog the invisible man? Quite frankly, I was a bit suprised to see their supportiveness of such a venture but what they hey, I think it both goes to show the diversity in the attitudes of the staff of CF and also just how exceptionally mistaken you are in your claims.
Almost forgot this one. This was my bad. I'll spend the rest of the day flogging myself for it. I do retract this in and of its entirety. I had not made the connection between several of the aforementioned individuals and their association with CF. I was indeed mistaken and I'm actually quite grateful to you for pointing it out. My turn to not read things through. It happens. Not that I enjoy it when it does, but it happens. To those individuals, I do offer my apologies in hindsight.
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
I have started a new thread for this. If you feel it necessary to comment about Canonfire, and its pro's or con's please discuss it there.
I started mine first :P
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=699746
You are looking for "newbie" materials. You say they are not to be found on other websites.
Why do you believe they will suddenly be produced for yours?
This is a pretty unreasonable expectation. People write what they want to write. Just because someone says more of "X" is needed, does not mean it will suddenly be produced.
Feel free to start your own website.
Feel free to include whatever sort of articles you want on it.
But do not feel free to insist others satisfy your needs upon demand.
Yes I shouldn't have said CF blows, but I did. I also came back and apologized and took back that statement. Cf is god for what it is, and I actually do like the site. I must admit it is a bit intimidating to the new GH DM, but it is a good site. I never really doubted that, I was just quite angered at Delglath and that was why I originally said it. But, here it is, I'm sorry for saying it. I wasn't trying to promote any other site or anything else. Also I would like to say I'm sorry to everyone whom I made biting remarks to *yes, Delglath included lol). While I feel greatly disrespected and unappreciated by several of your remarks, I should not have responded in some of the ways that I did, and I'm sorry.
Now, as said above, we need to get this thread back on topic completely. So no more talking about CF. This thread isn't about CF. Crypto, thank you very much for your offer to help, and also think all the others who have offered. I have lost my mental list of who all the was because of all the bickering that ensued yesterday so lets try to get all this going again (the thread not the bickering lol) Anyhow give me a chance to get woke up and see whats going on today and then I'll start talking about what it is exactly I think we are wanting to do.
Oh,
Samwise,
No I know people won't necessarily write about X if you say you want them to. That's why I was trying to get together some of the people on this board to help write it. I do plan on writing quite a bit of it, from the perspective of a younger gamer, and thought it would be good if several others wrote about it as well. Thats the entire topic of this thread (unfortunately we never really got to deep into it for that...).
oh and....
Goodmorning everyone! lol
Originally posted by technoelement2020
I do plan on writing quite a bit of it, from the perspective of a younger gamer, and thought it would be good if several others wrote about it as well.
As a side note, and with no intention of derailing the topic (again), this was briefly mentioned in an impromptu CF meeting (funnily enough, somewhat brought about by this thread). In that meeting the possibility of a new section, devoted to newbies and younger gamers, was brought up.
See... we're very adaptive... in fact... we're almost Borg-like... any last words? :D j/k
Who wants to help with the site, either through actual help designing it and/or writing some beginning articles for it?
Let's try to get in touch email-wise. I need to know who is interested.
[email=darkstarfalling@sbcglobal.net]Mach[/email]
Mach2.5, glad to hear you are still game. You have been a great help in my defense on this thread (Not that I ever should have needed it in the first place!
Shame on you all!). Thank you though, there were a few times you kept me in line lol. Anyways my email is [email]technoelement2020@yahoo.com[/email] (big surprise there eh? lol) so just drop me a line on any thoughts you have on how you could contribute to this project.To everyone else I need to say the following:
These two men, Cryptonova and Mach2.5, have been a great help to the Greyhawk Community. Sadly, my generation of gamers don't appear to be too interested in GH as of late, either because they know little about it, or because they need some insight into it. You, the GH community, should help them and give them that support and insight so that they can too become a member of the community. Sadly I think a great deal of you showed disrespect to those younger gamers by how you acted on this thread :sad: I think you should be ashamed of yourselves for doing that. It almost seems as though some feel like GH is some sort of exclusive community, like a country club or something. Shame on you!
Lol, this is not to derail the thread again, so don't respond. I have named no names, and I bet I'm not even talking about you, so don't get all ruffled. I just think the community on a whole needs to step back and perhaps look at their goals and the proper ways of achieving them. That is all. You should commend and thank both Cryptonova and Mach2.5 for acting as they have. Where it not for them and some others support I would have left this community, and that would have been one less younger gamer here. It does add up, trust me, especially seeing as I only want to get GH out into my age group. Both of the above mentioned though, I feel deserve a
from everyone....Lol thanks for listening, I remove myself from the soapbox now lol
Anyhow, who else is willing to help here? I promise we aren't doing anything that will harm the GH presence
:88E: SANITY LOSS STRIKES AGAIN!!!!
All I took issue here with is the badmouthing of Canonfire early on in the thread. I encourage anyone to promote Greyhawk online in whatever way they see fit, and am more than willing to help up and coming sites get noticed.
Rich 'chatdemon' Trickey
Canonfire! staff,
[email]richadmin@canonfire.com[/email]
I can see how the impression a newcomer might get when first visiting Canonfire may seem intimidating, there are a LOT of articles to sift through, and some pretty big names among the authors; Erik Mona, Gary Holian, Robert Kuntz, etc. There is also currently no specific Intro to Greyhawk type document, unfortunatey. For that type of thing, I suggest visiting the World of Greyhawk Player's Guide Project (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/gh/ghprimer.html).
Hope that helps some.
Techno - I was just getting into the idea tossing between you, Crypto and Mach so if you need anything - stories, backgrounds, whatever - just click your ruby slippers together three times. Then email me.
But I've had it with the flaming and whining on these threads. it's almost like children overran the thread, not mature adults.
Otherwise, good luck.
GASP! How did you know I have little glittery red slippers! anyhow, I agree with the whole flame thing getting way outta hand on here, and it succeeded in killing the thread. I think I'm going to start another one, now that everyone got the flaming out of their systems lol.
My email is [email]technoelement2020@yahoo.com[/email], so if you want to get in touch with me like Cryptonova and Mach2.5 have, just drop me a line. The more heads we can have working on this and such the better....